True, and I suppose this is the only guise under which I'd be interested in a sequel.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Morality of the Last of Us [Major Spoilers]
- Thread starter tea_and_crumpets
- Start date
True, and I suppose this is the only guise under which I'd be interested in a sequel.
I believe it will be about Ellie, I'm less sure if Joel will be a major character in it. Druckmann said that TLOU may be the origin story for Ellie as an "action hero". Whether he was just spinning his wheels, I don't know, but I have a feeling that Ellie would be a big part of a sequel. Most people want that, I think.
If they did that, I personally wouldn't want them to go *far* into the future. I don't want Ellie to suddenly be this entirely different person. I hope for some close continuity. Maybe that's just me.
Well for the game to really capture my interest and emotional investment they should've tackled the more grim issues like kids in the world of TloU, sexuality (mass raping and oppression of women anyone?), the lack of food and the background of the hobo army. The only scene where they even hinted at the enemies maybe being more than AI targets was Davids revelation that you'd been killing his men. We never really saw the true consequences of that. Families starving because a man Joel killed never returned home? Retribution from said families? Looting the enemy and finding a pic of his kids maybe?
Stuff like that I feel had to be left out because it's a videogame. In a book about post-apocalyptic world, that stuff is the bread and butter of the characterization.
I am aware that ND needs to think of their future, if the game was too scary or too realistic, it might've bombed. So I'm not upset or anything, just pointing out where the story could go with more ambition.
As for WD and Lost, from my point of view all of the episodes were bad.
I'm not going to disagree with that :b
fastford58
Member
I am pretty happy with the ending.
It was a shitty world full of shitty people. The human race as it is presented in that game simply does not deserve to continue. The fungus was just the way the world decided to shake off the garbage that had accumulated on it.
It was a shitty world full of shitty people. The human race as it is presented in that game simply does not deserve to continue. The fungus was just the way the world decided to shake off the garbage that had accumulated on it.
tea_and_crumpets
Member
A lot of people in this thread have said they understand what Joel did and some have even said they cant of imagined him acting in any other way. I agree, but Joel is a flawed character, I totally understand why he did what he did, given the understanding of Joel we build up over the game, but I still think he acted in an immoral fashion.
I also think those saying that the vaccine isnt necessary or that humanity is doomed anyway are plain wrong. Its clear that with a vaccine some semblance of order could be set up and although it would take time to vaccinate people, it would provide humanity with a good chance of rebuilding itself. Of course the vaccine could create power struggles (who gets it and who doesn't), but having a world with a vaccine is a far better world than one without it.
This is ultimately what makes the games dilemma compelling. If there was no chance for the vaccine being successful or helping humanity, then what Joel did is more unambiguously right. But this isn't the case, what he does is clearly questionable.
I think that some single player DLC where you play as a firefly member or Marlene would be very interesting. Get to explore the other side of the story, better understand the fireflys and what they want and get to see if there were other experiments they were doing etc etc.
I also think those saying that the vaccine isnt necessary or that humanity is doomed anyway are plain wrong. Its clear that with a vaccine some semblance of order could be set up and although it would take time to vaccinate people, it would provide humanity with a good chance of rebuilding itself. Of course the vaccine could create power struggles (who gets it and who doesn't), but having a world with a vaccine is a far better world than one without it.
This is ultimately what makes the games dilemma compelling. If there was no chance for the vaccine being successful or helping humanity, then what Joel did is more unambiguously right. But this isn't the case, what he does is clearly questionable.
I think that some single player DLC where you play as a firefly member or Marlene would be very interesting. Get to explore the other side of the story, better understand the fireflys and what they want and get to see if there were other experiments they were doing etc etc.
The vaccine would still in the hands of a terroristic organization.
Rollo Lawson
Banned
Pretty clear that the concept of mercy for Joel was wiped in the beginning of the game. I imagine he went all those years feeling that if he acted more quickly and more relentlessly instead of pleading for mercy, his daughter might still be alive. He spent the entire game doing just that...what he should have done in the beginning. Him basically saying fuck mankind at the end is just a grand culmination of that I think. Not very moral, disappointing to see, but I get it
I totally didnt see how flawed he was until late in the game, when he woke up and tortured those 2 men to get Ellie's whereabouts...that was far
I totally didnt see how flawed he was until late in the game, when he woke up and tortured those 2 men to get Ellie's whereabouts...that was far
I'd have done the same thing in his position. I wouldn't feel too sympathetic towards cannibals who are trying to kill me and kidnapped my child.
I see so much lamenting over the violence that Joel causes, and how immoral he is or what a monster is, but as Ellie pointed out to David, they never really give you much of a choice. They're the enemy, and these are dark times. You stick with those you love and do what you have to do.
The only "Hmm, maybe he shouldn't have killed those people" moment that takes place in the game was the doctor and Marlene, but in a way I even identify with that. They're loose ends. Ellie is all he cares about, and I'm extremely sympathetic towards that.
tea_and_crumpets
Member
What evidence is there that the fireflys are terrorists? The truth is we don't know what they are like and what their ultimate motivations are.
Canis lupus
Member
Who says the Fireflies would share it with the rest of the world?
tea_and_crumpets
Member
I never said they would. Let me repeat myself: "The truth is we don't know what they are like"
They toppled the Pittsburgh quarantine zone and are implied to have done so in multiple quarantines zones, and they claimed two bomb attacks on the town you start in. That seems like terrorism.
Melchiah
Member
I think they tackled those issues, as there were at least three times I stumbled onto graves and bodies of children, with an attached last note from the parent(s). (EDIT: Not to mention Ish's notes, and little details scattered around in the sewers) The events and notes after the car ambush clearly implied on the grisly fates of the victims, and the hardship of the hunters themselves. Listening to the hunters chatting made them seem more than AI targets for me at least. And the subsequent little chat with Ellie, and later on with Tommy, about Joel's past, revealed there's a dark side in Joel as well.
Many of the additional details were built by my own imagination, after the game provided the foundation for it. I kinda prefer that approach over of the usual way, where everything is served on a silver platter. I don't think everything needs to be shown, sometimes it's better to tell the story in broad strokes and let people imagine the details for themselves, like in The Road for example. Or in Silent Hill 2, where the pedophilic themes were brought forth with suggestions and metaphors, instead of fleshing them out in more gruesome detail.
a secret-boss
Banned
just finished this last night. I think Joel was shaped by his surroundings and the result of his daughter's death
Canis lupus
Member
They're a militia group fighting against the military. Its unlikely they would share a possible cure with the govt. They were nearly decimated anyway, most likely they would use the cure to rile up the citizens agains the govt.
Yeah I don't want them slapped on my face and down my throat, I just craved more and in greater substance. Nothing really shocked or disturbed me in TloU and honestly I kinda expected something shocking after all the reviews.
Melchiah
Member
I didn't really expect anything shocking, apart from cannibalism, but I did expect the game to have a deeply grey mood and ending, which it did. That being said, the several dead families and children you come across kinda surprised me. Especially the grave with a teddy bear.
The intent of my post wasn't to say the Fireflies were right or Joel was right. It was just to show the motivations of all involved. It seems as though people divorce the severity of this world-wide crisis and its impact on everyone from what happened. Everyone is suffering not just Joel.
I think most people wouldn't nominate their child to undergo a surgery that they know would end their child's life. I think most people in a pre-apocalyptic world wouldn't just put a girl on an operating table after taking her away from parental guardian. All of that is founded on a decent rational person who actually cares about their kids, and isn't a monster. As those exist in our real world society. I won't make a case for the fringe part of our society and what they might do. However, I do think that not everyone would go out and kill to save their child...and specifically face a paramilitary group alone....not everyone. Some think they would, some feel they would, but not everyone. But then that's not really my point.
The point is that from the beginning of getting Ellie, we are given a mission statement. The whole purpose is to get this girl in the hands of folks who could possibly find a cure. Joel knows it, Tess knows it, Marlene knows it, and Ellie knows it. Had things not gone awry at the capital, Joel could have handed her over no problem. But his forced isolation with her, the journey they would be immersed in, broke down his wall. The mission didn't change. Ellie's openness to sacrifice herself didn't change. Yes they had developed a relationship and a kinship which puts added pressure when they would ultimately have to say goodbye. We've seen Joel and Ellie grow, but the overall push throughout the story was deliver the 'hope' for mankind. That's united them and that's what's pushed them forward. The key is that the choice has already been made...Ellie is going to be made. Its why she's grown sadder as they reach their destination when she "knows" they'll find them (the fireflies) this time. Its the reason why after the giraffe scene where Joel suggests that they "don't have to do this and can just go back to Tommy's", that Ellie stays resolute and says "it can't all be for nothing." There is a realization that they will part ways. In the end, when Ellie talks about "waiting her turn", that's further confirmation that she would have gone through with it. She was open to dying.
What the Joel and Ellie didn't know was that they wouldn't be able to work through their goodbyes. The near-drowning scene and subsequent capture by the fireflies robbed them of the cooldown they would have needed. He would never have been emotionally okay with things, but its possible given that cooldown, he might not have killed anyone. And its here where my point lies...we know Joel's story, we know everyone involved knows the mission, and obviously we're meant to sympathize with Joel...they've robbed him of his goodbye AND of Ellie....but not of the mission's goal. Sitting in that room and being hauled off by some grunt, Joel cannot stomach it...an neither can the player. The implication is we don't see Ellie either. We understand, and are even willing to see the rescue through. Joel saves Ellie and we're meant to sympathize. We get to the parking lot with Marlene and we see where 'head' meets 'heart' as some have put it. Marlene outs him. She reminds him of what this was all for. What this means for mankind, what future could befall Ellie in this mad world they live in. Its here that we are reminded that Marlene is not a monster, that she too sympathizes with him. At the moment, she has the upperhand and puts her gun down. This is the first reminder for the player of who Joel is...The scene is cut to where we don't know immediately what he's done. Not everyone would have shot Marlene...just like not everyone, to a lesser degree, might have shot the doctors. Its a reminder of the extent and the nature of Joel's survivor mentality. Not everyone will go that length....but to some extent you're right...its meant to be slightly shocking that he went that far, but we are to accept that as Ellie and he faced an immediate threat. He did what he did to keep her safe...he was overwrought with emotion...you know, fill in the blank. Its his lie that's meant to expose him for his true limitations...the threat isn't in Ellie being harmed now...Its here that you meant to lose sympathy to some degree. Its that moment where the greyness begins for me. We think we understood what it meant to be Joel until he lies to Ellie. We understand his rationale for rescuing her...we care for her too, so its understandable in some respects. But the lie and what it says about Joel, what it means and how it affects Ellie, stops us short. He's abandoned the mission goal and he won't be straight up about it, because like shooting Marlene, he can't have any loose ends.
Its not a question of who is right or wrong...but more to provide motivations of the characters...which means things are grey. Its not meant to be that you can point out a clear villain or a monster. Things happen and you sympathize on both sides. Thus, there is no clear happy ending or bad ending. We saved Ellie, but no one really wins.
The only thing I didn't like about Joel was that he almost was looking at Ellie as a direct replacement for his daughter at the end instead of as her own person. Calling her "baby girl" and talking about hikes with Sarah at the end just seemed kind of pathetic and desperate which irked me.
But I don't think he did anything inherently wrong at the end. The Fireflys didn't even seem open to exploring the possibility of creating the vaccine without killing Ellie, and he was right when he said Marlene would never stop looking for her. Plus I only killed the surgeon that came at me with the knife, not the other two.
And even if they were able to make a vaccine, making enough of it, distributing it, etc. is iffy with the way humanity is in its current state.
So might as well give Ellie some semblance of a normal life, maybe tell her the truth when she's older and then she can make her own decision.
But I don't think he did anything inherently wrong at the end. The Fireflys didn't even seem open to exploring the possibility of creating the vaccine without killing Ellie, and he was right when he said Marlene would never stop looking for her. Plus I only killed the surgeon that came at me with the knife, not the other two.
And even if they were able to make a vaccine, making enough of it, distributing it, etc. is iffy with the way humanity is in its current state.
So might as well give Ellie some semblance of a normal life, maybe tell her the truth when she's older and then she can make her own decision.
Melchiah
Member
This made me think that was it ever presented in the game, that the epidemic was global? I can't really remember. If it was, I wonder how the spores would have spread to the other continents.
On a side note, I wish the NA-centric approach in games and movies would sometimes take a step to a more global direction, and perhaps use Europe as a central location for a change, like RFoM refreshingly did.
You'll be happy to hear that TLOU2 will be set in Hong Kong with Joel going after infected members of the triad.
Playing it again and I just want to add one piece of info into the mix:
When the game truly begins (20 Years Later) Joel is shacked up with Tess and while they don't dwell on it they are a couple of gangsters. Preditors really. They have some kind of scam going on where they are going to fuck Robert. Robert catches wind and tries to take out Tess. Then the two of them go after Robert.
I don't know how much it adds to the character profile, but I would say that after his daught dies Joel becomes some who will kill not only for survival but for profit.
When the game truly begins (20 Years Later) Joel is shacked up with Tess and while they don't dwell on it they are a couple of gangsters. Preditors really. They have some kind of scam going on where they are going to fuck Robert. Robert catches wind and tries to take out Tess. Then the two of them go after Robert.
I don't know how much it adds to the character profile, but I would say that after his daught dies Joel becomes some who will kill not only for survival but for profit.
Melchiah
Member
Joking aside, a sequel with Joel on another continent doesn't really sound logical. I just wish that games in general were sometimes set elsewhere than the States. For an European the overused American locations mean nothing, and are quite frankly getting a bit tiresome.
In Spring he accepts the photo of him and his deceased daughter (that he initially rejects from Tommy) and says something along the lines of "I guess you can't escape your past", and even thanks Ellie for it (could be the first time he says 'thanks' to Ellie?).
This shows that Joel has had a great shift between burying his past and avoiding acknowledging his daughter, to accepting it and moving on (which is shown by Joel embracing Ellie like a daughter from Winter onward). In the epilogue he talks about how Sarah would have liked Ellie, differentiating the two.
Eh, TLoU picked pretty unique locations. Outside of snowboarding games, I don't remember Colorado, Jackson Hole, or Salt Lake City being popular videogame settings.
Shifting topics:
This was brought up in one of the dozens of spoilercasts I listened to, so I will mention it here: when Sarah gives Joel the watch in the beginning of the game, was anyone surprised when he never thanked her? He made a sarcastic comment, seemed appreciative, but he never actually thanked her. As they said on the podcast, it seemed to indicate that even before Sarah died, Joel had a troubled history. I thought it was a very deliberate and interesting decision by ND to include that detail.
Edit: I started this post before the post above me, but they both touch on similar subjects.
HitokiriNate85
Member
I think the idea is that they might've been able to create a vaccine.
They're labeled terrorist by the opposing force. Its just a label. The government shot Joel's daughter. And I'm sure she wasn't the only one. The Fireflies would call them terrorists. You need to think back on what you saw at the game's intro. People are gunned down in the streets if they don't "pass" the test. Heck if you walk out of line, they will gun Joel down. It shouldn't be hard to imagine that people might rebel against that kind of treatment.
As far as the vaccine goes, and who has it, and what they may do to leverage can only be left to wild speculation. The Fireflies could drop a vial containing a cure and it all be for not. A horde of infected could storm the facility and kill everyone. The government could wipe them out, and take over their research. The point isn't so much as who has the cure...but that a cure even exists.
If you are bitten, there is no hope for you. Unless you are a one-in-a-billion shot like Ellie.
Billions of people have been infected, or killed...and more added to the count daily..."finding someone else" shrinks everyday. Another potential Ellie could have been raped and murdered by a hunter, ripped to shreds by infected, killed themselves out of depression, or died over the last 20 years. Likewise, the people who would be capable of doing the research and performing the surgery necessary would be on short supply. Any living person could be a day away from being killed. The equipment needed to perform the operations or research could be abandoned, surrounded by a horde of Infected. Having the power necessary to run them isn't a forgone conclusion. In this world, you don't get to pick and choose when and how you get a cure. You don't get the luxury of appointments, or consultations. There's no forms to fill out or nurse to pull your medical history or review your policy. There aren't options. There isn't convenience. You do or you don't. There's no societal pat on the back that says, "good job, way to be a standup guy." Praying won't save you, being moral doesn't grant you any rewards. You don't want to steal to feed your family because of your code; then your family doesn't eat. You look to be the good samaritan, and you beaten and robbed. That's evident throughout Joel and Ellie's journey, you're never really safe. Its why they didn't bother consulting Joel or waiting for Ellie to wake up...who knows when the whole situation can go awry. "We have the tools right now, we have the doctors right now, we've got a girl whose survived for months after being bitten, who knows what tomorrow will bring, put her on the table". Let me be clear...I'm not saying its right. I'm not saying Joel is wrong. I'm just illustrating the motivations of the characters. Listen to the recordings, these people aren't doing it for power. As flawed as they are, they have problems outside just the government...they deal with the Infected too. They remember a time before all this too. I can envision someone whose got a family of his own struggling to keep them alive, looking at Joel's situation, sympathizing, and saying "Put her on the table."
I understand caring for Ellie. I did. I understand that the overwhelming majority of us would have chosen to save her. And I'm not saying that's wrong, but let's not let our emotion cast everyone else in the world as monsters...or diminish what 'rescuing' Ellie means for the rest of humanity. Joel and Ellie aren't the only decent/relatable people in the world. This is one story of many. We step into this world 20 years after the world falls apart, alternatives to Ellie don't come so easy. Anyone outside of Joel is not going to just dismiss the fact that this girl holds the potential for a reversal of this 20 year hell. Even Ellie has trouble coping with that fact.
Good point. I think saying she's just a surrogate Sarah that a troubled man is transferring his feelings to is an oversimplification. His experience losing Sarah is one that can't help but color how he looks at Ellie, and why there's an elevated significance to having a daughter again, (it's hard to miss Joel completing his circle as he runs from danger carrying Ellie in his arms) but he sees them as different people and I believe he cares for Ellie as Ellie.
Melchiah
Member
There was nothing wrong with TLOU in that regard, that part in the OP just reminded me of the issue. It would be nice for a change to visit some European locations, that are more familiar, like for example the Rhine and its many castles in Germany, which would have fitted the autumn/winter part of the game.
That part you mentioned is quite an interesting observation, which I never gave a second thought when it occurred in the game. Perhaps there was some quilt about being distant involved, or they might just be looking too much into it.
agreed
To quote myself from the other thread.
It's really amazing that even knowing that we will never reach a consensus about who was in the right, I'm still enjoying reading up on all the different opinions of you guys. ND really did a great job with this game.
I honestly can say the I would not be able to look at Joel in the eyes and tell him he made a bad call.
I think he did what every father would/should do for his son/daughter.
Also, he would kill me instantly
I still feel a bit bad because I killed all the doctors. At that point , the tought of not killing them didn't even crossed my mind. As I said before, I always go out of my way in a video game to not kill someone when I'm given the option. This game. The feels.
It's really amazing that even knowing that we will never reach a consensus about who was in the right, I'm still enjoying reading up on all the different opinions of you guys. ND really did a great job with this game.
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
That's not for you to decide.
I think the morality issues and questions with the game is part of what made it so great. I really didn't want to become sympathetic to Joel but I did. The last scene with him running through the hospital with Ellie in his arms solidified for me that Joel is just a broken man trying desperately to salvage any sort of semblance of 'normalcy' he had before the entire world went to shit.
The parallels it had to the start of this whole shit show for Joel at the beginning crushed me. Honest to god this is the best storytelling I've ever had the pleasure of experiencing in a game the questionable morality was a HUGE part of that.
I saw that moment as him being an embarrassed father. He wasn't expecting anything but gets a thoughtful gift for his birthday. I can see him not being the most open father when it comes to showing his affection, as many fathers often have that issue.
Yep, this is how I saw it as well. Even if the disease were to be cured, humanity has no superstructure left. No way to reliably mass produce and distribute the cure. The bands of hunters and bandits are still going to be hunters and bandits. And Joel had had enough sacrifice and loss for one lifetime, I think.
We also saw how humanity still had hope several time's throughout the game, especially if a vaccine was found. What happened to Henry and Sam could have been prevented if there was a cure.
And besides, one of the main reasons Joel and Ellie met those shitty people is because they were traveling alone in long abandoned roads, places that just a few centuries back posed the same dangers shown in the game.
I remember them claiming responsibility for bombings on quarantine zones. That seems like terrorism.
I'm not sure I follow :U
MDSVeritas
Member
One thing I like to recall in these discussions, at least to keep in mind as I'm thinking about the decisions made in the end, was the giraffe scene. The one scene where the world isn't all bad, where there's something beautiful in the world and something even more beautiful that those two can share it.
I go back to this scene because the decision Joel makes isn't one you can just examine from the "Right or wrong" moral standpoint. This was the girl that saved him from death, the one that cared about him, the one he shared that single moment in Salt Lake City with.
I certainly don't think either side in this story makes the right choices, and I'm at a lost for what I would choose in Joel's situation. But I just don't understand the comments about Joel being the villain of the story, or having no humanity left, or his entire set of actions being selfish ones.
Just think of that moment looking with the Giraffes, and imagine that person you shared that moment with and grew so close to over that journey, and imagine her dying on a surgery table alone and never even thinking she would die, and the one person who could save her didn't care enough to stop it.
Yeah, that's only one way to look at it, but I hope it's easy to understand why I don't doubt the reasoning of Joel's choice, as very very morally gray it was.
I go back to this scene because the decision Joel makes isn't one you can just examine from the "Right or wrong" moral standpoint. This was the girl that saved him from death, the one that cared about him, the one he shared that single moment in Salt Lake City with.
I certainly don't think either side in this story makes the right choices, and I'm at a lost for what I would choose in Joel's situation. But I just don't understand the comments about Joel being the villain of the story, or having no humanity left, or his entire set of actions being selfish ones.
Just think of that moment looking with the Giraffes, and imagine that person you shared that moment with and grew so close to over that journey, and imagine her dying on a surgery table alone and never even thinking she would die, and the one person who could save her didn't care enough to stop it.
Yeah, that's only one way to look at it, but I hope it's easy to understand why I don't doubt the reasoning of Joel's choice, as very very morally gray it was.
My constant contention is that it wasn't a choice. Joel did the only thing he could do. No parent would give up their child in that manner. Ask them. It'll be 0%.
staticneuron
Member
I am not sure if anyone that says that really experienced a serious loss. Personally if put in the same spot, with talk of a vaccination and someone I care about has their life on the line, you better believe I will save that loved one.
I'd rather see a new IP. Naughty Dog have such a reputation now and their games are so instantly recognisable I don't think they need the crutch of a recognised title + number for a game to be successful. They have a banner franchise in Uncharted, they don't need two.I think any (non-Uncharted) game they make next could be considered a spiritual successor of sorts.
New IPs interest me so much more than sequels, even if I loved the original. We don't need another game franchise. I don't think there's anything inherently interesting about the fungus-zombie world that warrants another story; it's standard post-apocalyptica really. Everything that makes this game great is in the characters and execution.
I don't want more Ellie and Joel. What I do want are more characters as good as Ellie and Joel.
One thing's for sure, whatever they do next that doesn't feature Nathan Drake won't be with us for many, many years.
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
I'm actually really curious how many of you that are saying you would leave her on the table are actually parents. I am the parent of a 13 year old boy and girl no way, no how, not ever, would I leave them on the table to sacrifice themselves for a world that is beyond repair.
SolidSnakex
Member
Sure they do. The hardest thing to do in this industry is create a successful franchise. ND has one, and they may have potentially created a second one. You don't just throw that away. With that said, I don't expect TLoU to become a Uncharted-like franchise that we see every other year. I expect it to be something more like Half Life. A game that comes out every now and then when the developers feel they have the right idea to make it work.
Of course it can as long they can come up with something good. It's an awesome standalone experience but that's just wrong.
As long as they won't make it a yearly thing where they just put Ellie in different scenarios à la Uncharted. Release it in 3-4 years with fresh gameplay and a good story and what says it won't top the original.
Melchiah
Member
Yep, it worked with the first three Silent Hills, but eventually there comes a point where you end up repeating the same idea. I'd say a well-thought and executed sequel could work, but a third one might be pushing it.
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
Personally I think ND set themselves up for a prequel. There is all kinds of room in that 20 years before the events of this game to work with. I'd miss Ellie though. Kinda going OT here so I digress.