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The Morality of the Last of Us [Major Spoilers]
- Thread starter tea_and_crumpets
- Start date
Melchiah
Member
That's an interesting idea, but I doubt Tess would get people as attached as Ellie did. Although she might have been far more innocent younger, and perhaps the events that made her what she was would be interesting and touching to see. A prequel might have an even bleaker tone, given Joel's questionable past.
EDIT:
BTW, I loved how the item sound resembled that of Silent Hill.
If there has to be a sequel, as has been mentioned, do it Silent Hill-esque: same universe, perhaps related tangentially to TLoU1, but by and large standalone. I'd enjoy that more than seeing them potentially destroy the beautiful/tragic/harrowing/powerful ending to the first game by continuing that story.
GillianSeed79
Member
This is true, but, considering the game is somewhat grounded in reality when it comes to its depiction of human nature, it's not hard to imagine that the Fireflys armed with a vaccine might not have all together altruistic motivations. Remember this is a rebel group that is being persecuted, hunted and killed by the military or whatever semblence of societal order that remains in TLoU. Even giving the Fireflys the benefit of the doubt that they could even mass produce a vaccine, there's no guarantee that they would automatically share it willingly with all of humanity, especially their enemies. If you are the only group on the planet that has a vaccine for world-ending apocalyptic disease, human nature suggests that those within the Fireflys would use it to further their own agendas and consolidate their power. One person's freedom fighter can turn into tommorow's tyrant.
That being said, I do think there could be argument that it's a risk maybe worth taking, but the character of Joel wouldn't do that sort of thing.
You also have to take into consideration that it's possible or even somewhat likely that Ellie could spread her immunity to her offspring, so it's not like she will be humanity's only hope. In the short run, her offspring could be used to create a vaccine too or in the long run evolution would run its course wherein Ellie's immunity would be spread from generation to generation to the point where huamnity would evenutally become immune. Granted that would probably take many, many thousands of years and it ignores the possibility of the virus mutating to counteract Ellie's immunity.
Melchiah
Member
Yeah, I'm not so sure whether I want to see a straight continuation either.
The more and more I think about it, the more similarities I am seeing between TLoU and that series, SH2 in particular. Which of course is a compliment of the highest order to TLoU.
Melchiah
Member
They have similarities with atmosphere, the melancholic acoustic guitar-based music, and the story's strong emotional aspects. Personally, no game has made such an impact on me since SH2 as TLOU did, which in itself makes it a game of the generation for me.
Majmun
Member
I see some similarities between the two franchises..
A SH game by Naughty Dog would fucking slay me btw.
HueyFreeman
Banned
There's definitely some Silent Hill in there, but done by a team that can actually program combat and write dialogue. (I love the SH series btw).
I can't help but feel this was the natural evolution of Resident Evil if the series had had proper stewardship though. Oh well... glad somebody took up the torch on evolving survival horror gameplay.
out0v0rder
Member
in a world full of monsters, the worst kind is the humans.
joel can be seen as selfish.
i hesitated to the kill the doctors, eventually joel just stabbed the one with the scapel. i let the other two go though. i think ellie knows hes lying.
joel can be seen as selfish.
i hesitated to the kill the doctors, eventually joel just stabbed the one with the scapel. i let the other two go though. i think ellie knows hes lying.
Ellie's pretty smart. At the end, it didn't sound like she was asking "Swear that what you told me about the Fireflies was the truth" as much as "Swear that you taking me away from there was necessary / that we did the right thing".
Besides, the Fireflies had made no legitimate attempt to study her immunity further and attempt to use her without killing her. They weren't interested in her (even Marlene wasn't, really), they were only interested in what she was. Joel seems like he was likely the only person in her life (other than maybe Riley, who had become infected) that cared about her for who she was.
I don't see any reason why they couldn't potentially do research into a vaccine/cure at Tommy's dam post-game either (a cure could be viable as long as it was given prior to progression past stage 1 of the infection). They have a large, self sustaining and viable community, they have a source of electricity, I would be kinda surprised if there wasn't at least a small hospital or medical center with equipment in the town somewhere.
People with the knowledge to actually pursue it might be more lacking, but I could also see Ellie devoting herself to studying medicine as she gets older too. It wouldn't be the short term results the Fireflies hoped killing her would provide, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.
I could see a sequel set years later with one discovered, but them needing specific supplies/facilities to mass produce it and/or some way of actually spreading/sharing it beyond their own community (and convincing people it's legit), since the world outside would have degenerated even further by that point.
Besides, the Fireflies had made no legitimate attempt to study her immunity further and attempt to use her without killing her. They weren't interested in her (even Marlene wasn't, really), they were only interested in what she was. Joel seems like he was likely the only person in her life (other than maybe Riley, who had become infected) that cared about her for who she was.
I don't see any reason why they couldn't potentially do research into a vaccine/cure at Tommy's dam post-game either (a cure could be viable as long as it was given prior to progression past stage 1 of the infection). They have a large, self sustaining and viable community, they have a source of electricity, I would be kinda surprised if there wasn't at least a small hospital or medical center with equipment in the town somewhere.
People with the knowledge to actually pursue it might be more lacking, but I could also see Ellie devoting herself to studying medicine as she gets older too. It wouldn't be the short term results the Fireflies hoped killing her would provide, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.
I could see a sequel set years later with one discovered, but them needing specific supplies/facilities to mass produce it and/or some way of actually spreading/sharing it beyond their own community (and convincing people it's legit), since the world outside would have degenerated even further by that point.
Joel is a survivior, and to survive in such a world he did bad things. At the begining we see that his dother loves him and considers him to be amazing father.
He didn't wanted to lose Ellie because he already lost one dother, I think he looked at Ellie by the end of the game as his dother or he was a father figure. That's why he acted the way he did at the end.
He cared for Ellie that's it. And I agree with him this was not the way. Fireflies just wanted power, they are not the good guys
He didn't wanted to lose Ellie because he already lost one dother, I think he looked at Ellie by the end of the game as his dother or he was a father figure. That's why he acted the way he did at the end.
He cared for Ellie that's it. And I agree with him this was not the way. Fireflies just wanted power, they are not the good guys
Conciliator
Banned
From Joel's perspective, at least, the righteousness or lack thereof of the fireflies is completely irrelevant. He's keeping Ellie around, period. It has nothing to do with morality or even with what Joel thinks is right or wrong, if he even cares at all. He cares about Ellie. It's the only thing he cares about; previously he didn't care about anything.
The only other thing I'll say regarding him is that if they would have reached the fireflies before Joel falls for Ellie, so to speak(the point after she runs away when he's trying to hand her off), he would have made no qualm whatsoever about handing her over to the fireflies regardless of what they were planning, because he had no emotional investment.
That said, even though he's not the Good Guy(there isn't one) and possibly sacrificed the future of humanity, I'm still sympathetic towards him. You can't let someone take your baby girl.
The only other thing I'll say regarding him is that if they would have reached the fireflies before Joel falls for Ellie, so to speak(the point after she runs away when he's trying to hand her off), he would have made no qualm whatsoever about handing her over to the fireflies regardless of what they were planning, because he had no emotional investment.
That said, even though he's not the Good Guy(there isn't one) and possibly sacrificed the future of humanity, I'm still sympathetic towards him. You can't let someone take your baby girl.
I don't know if this is necessarily true. I think Joel identified Ellie with his daughter and felt for her *very* early in the game, it just took him a really long time to break the tough guy character, to take down the walls he's spent 20 years putting up, and admit it.
I don't think it's coincidence that there seem to be some similarities between Sarah and Ellie, both are wise cracking, imaginative, funny little kids. I think Joel would have sort of been stirred by her from nearly the moment he met her.
Dother?
I'm pretty sure he would have given her up for supplies had he met the fireflies earlier. After all, Joel admitted that he had no problem killing innocent people for scraps before, and the fireflies would have given him a huge stash of supplies and weapons. But traveling with a person for over a year, especially after they spent an entire season looking out for you, makes you attached to them.
Omnistalgic
Member
nonsense...if the government of today murdered your daughter, when nothing was wrong with you and you needed help, there's no way of knowing where you would end up in a world of survival of the fittest.
yup, this is what I got from the game as well. spot on...
Also, to those saying Joel is a monster, I think that's the point. Being Human=being a monster, at least in this world. For all intents and purposes, no one is saying much negative about Ellie correct? Well she's basically in love with Joel. She takes care of him for a month, goes hunting for him, uses everything he's taught her to survive, and cries in his arms (when most ppl seem to think she didn't need him to rescue her, she did, she was already broken down) and pleads with him not to leave her like everyone else has, either through death or circumstance.
Today, I would say for most people even, you have to have some type of religious/moral belief and strive to be good, to strive to be humble and selfless, it normally doesn't come naturally. Just look at the world and all it's problems. How much stems from greed? From selfishness? From hatred? From Ignorance? So for us to judge Joel's actions as pure evil IMO is given ourselves waay too much credit. In a world where your loved ones can literally become monsters you have to kill in order to survive, our state of mind and morale compass would likely not be far away from Joel. Some of us might be a lot more hesitant to kill and prefer running away. Some of us might feel safer with the hunters, and while it was disgusting at first, it was the only way to form another "family" after ours is taking away. Now, I'm not saying what Joel should have did. I was in Joel's shoes, and I wanted him to tell her the truth, and just persuade her to wait, live a little, and make a decision when she's a bit older, but then again, I'm not likely a person that would have survived 20 years either.
Regardless of what stance you take on Joel and his actions, I just think it's terribly judgmental to label him anything but human in this type of world. Even if the beginning when the outbreak first broke out and he left that family, there's plenty of people today that would do exactly that, become selfish/heartless in a crisis, because that's everyone's true colors.
For me at least, I have to work to not be that way, it's not what comes naturally.
If he knew they were going to kill her, I don't think he would willingly give up any kid. People =/= Children. He might turn his back or mind his own business if he wasn't involved, like when telling Tommy to drive past the family with a kid at the beginning, but from the moment he took responsibility for her it was done.
He's all brutal, remorseless efficiency when it comes to any kind of threat and survival in general, but he seems to have something of a soft spot for kids. Ellie's similarities to Sarah only made it harder for him to stay detached from the very beginning.
You can notice he behaves protectively of not only her safety, but of her mentally, from early on. Like when they were with Bill and he tells her she shouldn't look at the steaming pile of corpses outside of the church, or even some of the subtle comments or banter earlier than that.
How he reacts during the couple artifacts you find near covered/dead children, in Ish's sewers and the camper near the end.
I don't think he wanted to take her in the first place because he knew that he would be more worried about her than he wanted, feel more responsible for her than he wanted to be, until he was able to pass her on. He knew he was getting too attached to her at Tommy's dam, which is why he was more brusque with her than usual, and tried to insist on Tommy taking her from there.
He didn't want that responsibility, but as soon as he took it and as long as he had it, even before they were emotionally attached, I don't think he would have been willing to hand her over if he knew what they were going to do to her. And once he accepted that he cared for her personally, well. Woe to whomever fucked with her after that.
scar tissue
Banned
There was no telling whether killing Ellie would actually result in a working vaccine. Science does lots of experiments, and most of them don't have practical results.
There's a good chance that sacrificing her would've been for nothing, or at best, a small step towards a cure.
And since her immunity is likely genetic in nature, letting her live and possibly have kids in the future (some of which will also carry the genes for immunity) is a far better hope for mankind than cutting her open ASAP without doing any other research.
So yeah, fuck the fireflies.
There's a good chance that sacrificing her would've been for nothing, or at best, a small step towards a cure.
And since her immunity is likely genetic in nature, letting her live and possibly have kids in the future (some of which will also carry the genes for immunity) is a far better hope for mankind than cutting her open ASAP without doing any other research.
So yeah, fuck the fireflies.
I think he might have had an idea that something bad would have happened to her and that's why he wanted Tommy to take her before she became too attached. He knew how important she was and didn't want his emotions to stop him from dropping her.
It wasn't that she was immune, it was that the strain she caught was mutated and didn't inflict any damage to her. I think it was the equivalent of getting a natural flu shot, so she probably can't pass it on.
And the idea that the remainder of humanity would all be her descendents is pretty funny.
scar tissue
Banned
I see, that makes sense. Why else would they have to cut her brain open and remove the fungus?
I still think that hastily cutting her open is an incredibly stupid idea.
Ever heard of mitochondrial eve? It could happen again.
natkingcoleslaw
Neo Member
I don't think he is a monster, but more like a force of nature. Humanity is fucked in that game cure or not. It can't be compared to penicillin, for the simple reason humanity was already the primary species on earth when that drug was discovered. All penicillin did was to tip the balance even more in our favor than it was before, thus allowing us to multiply greatly.
To save human race,in the last of us, would have required an equivalent of the cordyceps race becoming sentient and then deciding to classify humans as an endangered species and then take steps to conserve them. Simply put humans were on their way out as nature ordained.
I feel, in his heart, Joel is perfectly aware of this and he only agreed to shepherd Ellie out of his love to Tess. The game made it pretty clear that he would do anything for Tess. When Tess got bit, he was ready to throw down with her but then decided to do as she said, when she put their relationship on the line.
In such a scenario it is, in my opinion, perfectly okay for joel to have something as wholesome as another chance at fatherhood. Rather than throw that chance away at something as futile as a cure he just decided to do something for himself, just like almost everyone would have.
To save human race,in the last of us, would have required an equivalent of the cordyceps race becoming sentient and then deciding to classify humans as an endangered species and then take steps to conserve them. Simply put humans were on their way out as nature ordained.
I feel, in his heart, Joel is perfectly aware of this and he only agreed to shepherd Ellie out of his love to Tess. The game made it pretty clear that he would do anything for Tess. When Tess got bit, he was ready to throw down with her but then decided to do as she said, when she put their relationship on the line.
In such a scenario it is, in my opinion, perfectly okay for joel to have something as wholesome as another chance at fatherhood. Rather than throw that chance away at something as futile as a cure he just decided to do something for himself, just like almost everyone would have.
Black-Wind
Member
I don't think Joel was a monster OR wrong.
He's a dad and has taken this young girl on as his own. What dad would stand by and allow this?
And this is the world they have been living in for 20 YEARS now. Kill or be killed. If those doctors had guns they would be no different than anyone else you killed ... they would have a reason to kill you/ Joel just as you would have a reason to kill them.
And even pass that ... how would the Fireflies even save the world at this point? Sure, they talk a nice talk and that's how Tommy got with them ... but he also left because they're not the flat out "good guys".
He's a dad and has taken this young girl on as his own. What dad would stand by and allow this?
And this is the world they have been living in for 20 YEARS now. Kill or be killed. If those doctors had guns they would be no different than anyone else you killed ... they would have a reason to kill you/ Joel just as you would have a reason to kill them.
And even pass that ... how would the Fireflies even save the world at this point? Sure, they talk a nice talk and that's how Tommy got with them ... but he also left because they're not the flat out "good guys".
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I am still reeling from the end. This is going to stay with me for a while isn't it?
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I said this in the other thread but the Giraffe scene is masterful and something I have never ever seen in a video game.
WINTER is just sublime(If sublime meant being depressed as all hell)
It will probably sound like over-hype but Winter is probably the best section of any gamen Iv'e ever played. David's 'reveal' just after you clean out the infected with him was just...wow...The relief of finding Joel's still alive...Joel's "Baby-Girl" right at the end...
Unmatched.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Yup. Plus the switching between both characters gives you this sense of panic I haven't felt before. Masterfully done.
synchronicity
Member
Reading the various impressions makes me wonder what Naughty Dog's writers think of the various opinions regarding the game's tale. I wonder if they're surprised at the degree which TLOU's narrative is being dissected. I wonder if they feel like we're reading much more into the story than was intended, or if they were intending and expecting the variety of interpretations.
Personally, I don't view anything or anyone as good or evil. Those are just terms which we use to define actions relative to personal or collective bias. Sometimes that bias represents a vast majority of humanity, but the fact remains that it is simply an interpretation skewed to our own unique perception of things as human beings, be it individually or as a group.
The reality for most humans is that we will do whatever we can to survive. Some are more capable than others, but when push comes to shove, the vast majority will choose self-preservation, given the opportunity.
Is Joel "evil" in that regard. I certainly don't think so. He is most assuredly selfish, as are most human beings, to varying degrees. I think Ellie was a nice contrast to that inherent selfishness that lay fixed within most of us. She had, what I would call, "enlightened self-interest", or the ability to perceive the welfare of the majority and acknowledge and accept her sacrificial role for the benefit of the collective species. I would still say that she is selfish because she is acting according to what she defines as having greater worth, but again, I view her self-interest as "enlightened" or altruistic. (Which may seem a contradiction to some.)
Joel's self-interest was far narrower in scope than Ellie's, as he was unable to see beyond himself and his personal needs. In that regard I thought the two characters played nicely off one-another. Ellie's innocence and hope contrasted beautifully with Joel's cynical view of things.
Personally, I don't view anything or anyone as good or evil. Those are just terms which we use to define actions relative to personal or collective bias. Sometimes that bias represents a vast majority of humanity, but the fact remains that it is simply an interpretation skewed to our own unique perception of things as human beings, be it individually or as a group.
The reality for most humans is that we will do whatever we can to survive. Some are more capable than others, but when push comes to shove, the vast majority will choose self-preservation, given the opportunity.
Is Joel "evil" in that regard. I certainly don't think so. He is most assuredly selfish, as are most human beings, to varying degrees. I think Ellie was a nice contrast to that inherent selfishness that lay fixed within most of us. She had, what I would call, "enlightened self-interest", or the ability to perceive the welfare of the majority and acknowledge and accept her sacrificial role for the benefit of the collective species. I would still say that she is selfish because she is acting according to what she defines as having greater worth, but again, I view her self-interest as "enlightened" or altruistic. (Which may seem a contradiction to some.)
Joel's self-interest was far narrower in scope than Ellie's, as he was unable to see beyond himself and his personal needs. In that regard I thought the two characters played nicely off one-another. Ellie's innocence and hope contrasted beautifully with Joel's cynical view of things.
Oh, they're fully aware and I bet they are loving it. This is a masterfully crafted narrative, and Naughty Dog had a set direction on where they wanted to take it, while still leaving loads to be discussed.
The one line that still haunts me, the one from the perfectly titled OT, is Ellie's "It Can't Be For Nothing." Taken in the most literal sense, their journey was "for nothing." The beautiful contrast here is the fact that Ellie wasn't able to be the key to a cure would mean it was for nothing for her, but it was "everything" for Joel.
I just can't stop thinking about this game.
The Faceless Master
Member
my mind was made up pretty early on in the hospital section... and when i got to the operating room i was already in the "fuck this game" mode and didn't want to stop the doctors and was kind of hoping there was some way i could just leave without Ellie... but since it *is* a game i just killed the one doctor you had to kill because i tried to just walk past him but apparently that was impossible. i just left the other docs alone and walked out and "finished the game" but the forced option really made me think about the game for a while.
A choice would have gone against everything the game did so incredibly well, and that is building some of the most believable characters in a game. You weren't playing as you, you were playing as Joel, and even if you didn't like what he was doing, it was what he had to do.
I was really conflicted going through that section, but in the end I thought they did an incredible job.
northead
Member
These are basically my exact thoughts. I thought I could give my own two cents, but I seem to be a bit late.
Neat analysis!
FunkyPajamas
Member
Seeing as how are are far more capable posters in here saying all I've thought about the game, I just want to say that I love gaf and this thread is full of great posters.
Thank you all.
Thank you all.
I just love the fact that the ending is capable of generating such thoughtful discussion. There was no crazy twist, there was just a completely natural development of events. Unlike Bioshock Infinite, where the ending was talked about because it was so obtuse and explained so poorly, the ending here is discussed because of its ambiguous nature, something that only the best kind of storytelling does. This is the first ending in the medium that I felt was worthy of proper analysis, and it makes all other video game stories look like they were written but a junior high student.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I shot the doctor with the scalpel, and the female one after she screamed "You're a monster!"
"Yeah whatever you say."
BANG!
I let the other one live though.
Anyways, if I am Joel, I would have done the same thing. They have a future promised with each other (teaching her how to play a guitar, to swim), and then it is robbed just like that. No way Joel (and I, if I were him) would have just stayed quiet about it.
What? No.
Well, opinion and all that, but Bioshock Infinite is a much more ambitious story-telling than TLOU and I feel they also handled it rather brilliantly.
"Yeah whatever you say."
BANG!
I let the other one live though.
Anyways, if I am Joel, I would have done the same thing. They have a future promised with each other (teaching her how to play a guitar, to swim), and then it is robbed just like that. No way Joel (and I, if I were him) would have just stayed quiet about it.
What? No.
Well, opinion and all that, but Bioshock Infinite is a much more ambitious story-telling than TLOU and I feel they also handled it rather brilliantly.
I disagree because the actual IP of this story is very barebones. They created a cool monster that has three stages. They put together a group of various survivors. They illustrated our world gone post apocolyptic by way of green.
There is not much to it at all. It was the story that made this game great. As people have said they could do it again in a different place and they would not be throwing very much away. the content in TLOU was perfect for one game. Heck even when you do worldbuilding as dense as say Rapture in Bioshock, it starts to get stale only two games in.
Fallout-NL
Member
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
i shot the first doctor and aimed at the other two to see if they would try anything. everything joel did in that ending was exactly what i wanted him to do. shooting marlene, lying to ellie. truth is, you owe her your life, and her life is worth more than 90% of the remaining human population from what we've seen in the game.
if humanity is going to get cured at some point, they'll have to do it by the book, consent and all.
obviously, the ending goes against what quite a few people wanted, but it was pure poetry for me, joel and i were of one mind at that point and the game trained me for that moment really well. im usually the guy that would agree with the greater good stuff, but the last of us made it's point well, sometimes it's not that easy.
i didnt know there was only one way forward in that sugery room, i hesitated and thought about what i wanted to do for a few seconds, so that killshot was absolutely all me, and it was the most important moment in the game.
ellie may have been unrealistically innocent, but that's just how the story goes. and you end up feeling like you cant justify killing someone that innocent for anything, especially not without their consent.
but yeah, joel doesn't have to be unrepentant murderer in that room, the joel i played was hesitant, reluctantly killed one doctor because he had no choice, and stood holding ellie in the next room for good while in confusion and wonderment before running for an exit.
edit: though crazy, murderous joels are understandable as well. i dont claim to hold any moral authority whatsoever. especially not in a fictional world.
if humanity is going to get cured at some point, they'll have to do it by the book, consent and all.
obviously, the ending goes against what quite a few people wanted, but it was pure poetry for me, joel and i were of one mind at that point and the game trained me for that moment really well. im usually the guy that would agree with the greater good stuff, but the last of us made it's point well, sometimes it's not that easy.
i didnt know there was only one way forward in that sugery room, i hesitated and thought about what i wanted to do for a few seconds, so that killshot was absolutely all me, and it was the most important moment in the game.
ellie may have been unrealistically innocent, but that's just how the story goes. and you end up feeling like you cant justify killing someone that innocent for anything, especially not without their consent.
but yeah, joel doesn't have to be unrepentant murderer in that room, the joel i played was hesitant, reluctantly killed one doctor because he had no choice, and stood holding ellie in the next room for good while in confusion and wonderment before running for an exit.
edit: though crazy, murderous joels are understandable as well. i dont claim to hold any moral authority whatsoever. especially not in a fictional world.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Joel makes it pretty clear throughout the journey that he was once a scumbag like the people hunting you, why was he like that?
Because when his daughter died he lost everything. His life lost meaning.
Why did he choose to save Ellie at the end? because she had replaced that missing piece that Sarah's death had left. The ending isn't a happy one, it's bloody selfish one where one man lies to a little girl and dooms the world just so he can have a daughter again.
In the end, he's still a scumbag.
Because when his daughter died he lost everything. His life lost meaning.
Why did he choose to save Ellie at the end? because she had replaced that missing piece that Sarah's death had left. The ending isn't a happy one, it's bloody selfish one where one man lies to a little girl and dooms the world just so he can have a daughter again.
In the end, he's still a scumbag.
I used the shotgun on their faces :|
Nice post. I felt and did the same as you and I agree with everything you said.
One that I sympathized with.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
*thumbs up*