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[gutter_trash]

I'd say the idea of the Classic Controller not being usable to play Gamecube games is ludicrous. Why the hell would they include every button on the Gamecube and then not use it?

From previous reports, the L and R buttons did have some give, but were never used in a non-clicking way [Only SNES / N64 games on hand].

wha wha.. WHAT??? is this true? WTF

 

[MadraptorMan]

Wait...why do people WANT to play GC games with the classic controller? Why not use the uh, you know, GameCube controller?

 

[rezuth]

The most common misconception is that the Wii can do 1:1 motion detection

The Red Steel thread should be proof enough

While it is possible it is rather complexed and easy to lose track of the controller. Translating it all would in the end not work well even if you can use all information to do a "qualified guess" of where the remote is.

 

[gutter_trash]

because the GC controller has a freakin`wire... short wire and all I wanted was to connect the Classic Controller onto the remote to have semi wireless

please, don`t talk about Wavebirds, i don`t feel like buying 3 different controller types for 1 console

 

[dark10x]

It does?

Wtf.

The Wii Remote can do anything the DS can do. And more.

The stylus offers DIRECT input into a game with the tip of your pen. It also functions more like an actual mouse and allows the action of picking up and re-positioning your stylus on the screen for near continuous motion. The Wii is less accurate, is not direct, and suffers from other limitations (such as the example above).

As for one-to-one motion, there's nothing but programming in the way of that. Physically, you should be able to have an image of the Wiimote on the screen that turns and moves exactly like the one in your hand.

Yes, but translating this into character animation and interaction with OTHER AI based characters will not only require serious programming but could be limited by the slower hardware present in the machine itself. Those calculations would not be particularly simple, I'd imagine. Moving a crosshair around the screen is entirely different and much easier to handle.

 

[SantaC]

i think the most common misconception is that it's an achieved innovation with real gaming applications and not a cheap carny trick

well the PS3 controller have some of the Wii-mote features, and I haven't seen you comment on those games.

 

[dark10x]

well the PS3 controller have some of the Wii-mote features, and I haven't seen you comment on those games.

The system is not built around it. Motion sensing is slick, but I do not feel that it is strong enough at this point to build an entire machine around the concept. Perhaps Nintendo will prove us all wrong.

 

[PkunkFury]

The stylus offers DIRECT input into a game with the tip of your pen. It also functions more like an actual mouse and allows the action of picking up and re-positioning your stylus on the screen for near continuous motion. The Wii is less accurate, is not direct, and suffers from other limitations (such as the example above).

The stylus returns an X and Y position on contact with the screen.

The wiimote can return an X and Y position on a button press... plus a crapload of other info

Aside from being "less accurate" which is very hard to quantify, the wiimote has no disadvantages to the stylus.

Yes, but translating this into character animation and interaction with OTHER AI based characters will not only require serious programming but could be limited by the slower hardware present in the machine itself. Those calculations would not be particularly simple, I'd imagine. Moving a crosshair around the screen is entirely different and much easier to handle.

How do you know this? Do you really have any idea what type of programming it takes to do this sort of AI? Obviously you can reach a certain point on any hardware where interaction becomes too complex, but assuming you are moving an object in 3D space one to one with the wiimote, all you need to do is check simple collsions to see if it has hit something. The Wii will be capable of doing pleanty of position related calculatutions for interaction, probably more than anyone will ever bother using.

 

[drohne]

you haven't seen me deprecate the waggle shock? really? i hate the waggle shock more than i hate the waggle wand, because it's going to sneak into my home along with a console i actually want, whereas i'll be able to avoid the wand easily enough. there's an excellent animated gif of an ign editor pretending to shoot the waggle shock like a basketball -- it says everything that needs to be said about waggle.

 

[Stinkles]

OK, I'll bite. I though the freaking machine was BUILT around the controller. How many controllers do I need to buy to play everything?

 

[dark10x]

but assuming you are moving an object in 3D space one to one with the wiimote, all you need to do is check simple collsions to see if it has hit something.

That is assuming that both objects are inanimate. I believe it would be significantly more difficult to pull off with two intricately animated figures (which a lot of folks seem to want).

 

[levious]

It would also seem that a lot of folks believe that the controller is more capable than it really is...

The people demanding one-to-one aiming and motion translation clearly have no idea how the device actually functions or what the machine it interfaces with can actually handle. Dynamic animations, physics, and interactions with a virtual sword is not possible, for example. The whole thing is a lot more simplistic than Nintendo initially seemed to suggest.

As it stands, the Wii input system seems like an alternative to pressing a button rather than actually bringing your movements into a game world. It LOOKS innovative and fresh, but the reality seems rather different.

The DS stylus certainly offers a lot more in comparison.

In wii tennis for example, what determines spin and angle of a shot? Is it only timing or can it detect subtle movements and not just initial jerks?

 

[nightez]

I'm not sure you understand how the wiimote works

The sensor bar *is* just like a mouse mat -- it don't detect (or "sense") nothing, it's just a set of infrared beacons for the wiimote's camera to sense. This is apparently used in conjunction with timing of the wireless connection to detect position in 3D space. This kind of detection is fairly fragile, though, so don't expect too much of it.

You aim at the senor bar not the screen. So like you would with a mouse mat, you use the sensor bar as your point of reference to position your on-screen cursor. CVG explain it better in their Red Steel preview.

One thing to note, for the technically minded of you out there, is that the controller's aim does NOT work like a lightgun - your on-screen cursor isn't positioned in the exact location that you point the remote. It works more like a mouse - the sensor bar detects your movements and translates them to scaled-up movements on screen. And also like a mouse, there will be a sensitivity option that'll allow you to set how fast the on-screen cursor moves relative to your hand movements.

 

[Marbles]

Slighty off topic...

Tennis Racket Controller Shell (Wii)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tennis-Racket-Controller-Shell-Wii/dp/B000JIDPSW/sr=1-23/qid=1161283137/ref=sr_1_23/202-4197786-7167026?ie=UTF8&s=videogames

Golf Club Controller Shell (Wii)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Golf-Club-Controller-Shell-Wii/dp/B000JIDPUA/sr=1-25/qid=1161283387/ref=sr_1_25/202-4197786-7167026?ie=UTF8&s=videogames

Cube Mini Controller (Wii)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Venom-Cube-Mini-Controller-Wii/dp/B000JI8WRG/sr=1-17/qid=1161283137/ref=sr_1_17/202-4197786-7167026?ie=UTF8&s=videogames


It has begun.
3rd party peripherals FTL

 

[dark10x]

You aim at the senor bar not the screen. So like you would with a mouse mat, you use the sensor bar as your point of reference to position your on-screen cursor. CVG explain it better in their Red Steel preview.

Is it possible to place the sensor bar beneath the TV or must it sit above the screen?

 

[gutter_trash]

Slighty off topic...

Tennis Racket Controller Shell (Wii)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tennis-Racket-Controller-Shell-Wii/dp/B000JIDPSW/sr=1-23/qid=1161283137/ref=sr_1_23/202-4197786-7167026?ie=UTF8&s=videogames

Golf Club Controller Shell (Wii)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Golf-Club-Controller-Shell-Wii/dp/B000JIDPUA/sr=1-25/qid=1161283387/ref=sr_1_25/202-4197786-7167026?ie=UTF8&s=videogames

Cube Mini Controller (Wii)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Venom-Cube-Mini-Controller-Wii/dp/B000JI8WRG/sr=1-17/qid=1161283137/ref=sr_1_17/202-4197786-7167026?ie=UTF8&s=videogames


It has begun.
3rd party peripherals FTL

Venom??? never heard of them before, a new 3rd party accessorer apears

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

Is it possible to place the sensor bar beneath the TV or must it sit above the screen?

I'm gonna tapemine dab smack in the middle of the screen. So I can get as close to lightguniness as possible.


(yes, anywhere)

You could tape it on the side wall if you want. and just aim there instead of the screen.

 

[plagiarize]

Is it possible to place the sensor bar beneath the TV or must it sit above the screen?

either is fine.

as others have said 1:1 aiming would just require callibration. i believe the light gun that came out for the megadrive/genesis worked in a very similar fashion. you sat it on top of your tv, aimed at the four corners of the screen to calibrate, and away you went. i think the only thing it was aiming in relation too was the sensor above the tv set.

 

[dkeane]

Is it possible to place the sensor bar beneath the TV or must it sit above the screen?

I've seen it both above and below the TV. It doesn't matter.

 

[Gattsu25]

Perhaps Nintendo will prove us all wrong.

Perhaps? Nintendo, like with the stylus, *will*. The wii remote isn't likely to be fully realized until a year or so down the line, though

 

[dark10x]

Perhaps? Nintendo, like with the stylus, *will*. The wii remote isn't likely to be fully realized until a year or so down the line, though

I hope they don't follow that path.

As I said, the DS games which I enjoyed most are not the games which are selling boatloads (exception being Mario). We've gone down this path many a times.

 

[Marbles]

The most common misconception is that the Wii can do 1:1 motion detection

The Red Steel thread should be proof enough

as posted on http://gonintendo.com/?p=7042

AiLive talks 1:1 Wiimote interaction
We’re delighted that the community is energized with hot debates about the Wii. This means that there’s a very healthy enthusiasm and demand for the kinds of features that the Wii entails.

To respond to your specific statement, clearly there *are* ways to get a 1:1 interaction between the Wii-mote controller and the game character. The Metroid demo is a good example of that. Using the Wii-mote for driving and steering is equally straightforward as shown by some of the launch demos. It is true that it is more difficult to interpret the controller data in broader contexts. Developing immersive and intuitive controls in these contexts is definitely challenging but not impossible. In fact, this is precisely the reason why Nintendo asked us to create LiveMove. Rising to these kinds of technological challenges is what AiLive is all about.

i guess that kills that argument

 

[jgkspsx]

CVG explain it better in their Red Steel preview.

Excuse me for not believing a psuedotechnical explanation from the enthusiast gaming press. I'll wait until the thing's dissected, thanks

 

[PjotrStroganov]

as posted on http://gonintendo.com/?p=7042



i guess that kills that argument

It doesn't talk about realtime 3d positioning and the corresponding actions on screen.

 

[Squeak]

Wait...why do people WANT to play GC games with the classic controller? Why not use the uh, you know, GameCube controller?

Because by now your GC controller is old and tattered, not something you want to play on your brand new Wii with.
You could buy a new pad but then it really starts to get expensive, if you have to get both the retro and a new GC pad.
It would also be nice to have a unified wireless option, with rumble, instead of the Wavebird.

 

[Squeak]

As it stands, the Wii input system seems like an alternative to pressing a button rather than actually bringing your movements into a game world. It LOOKS innovative and fresh, but the reality seems rather different.

Even if the pointer ability is "only" used for gestures in a game, that doesn't mean that buttons might as well have been used.
1. Gestures are much more memorable than pressing some random button.
2. Gestures are equally "far away". Unlike a button, no gesture are harder to reach than others. They are all right there at your fingertips.
3. It's possible to pack many more gestures into the same space than buttons. Just with the four straight and the four diagonal line gestures you have eight very quickly accessible "buttons".

The sensor bar *is* just like a mouse mat -- it don't detect (or "sense") nothing, it's just a set of infrared beacons for the wiimote's camera to sense. This is apparently used in conjunction with timing of the wireless connection to detect position in 3D space. This kind of detection is fairly fragile, though, so don't expect too much of it.

Why should it be more fragile than an optical mouse that looks at the shifting patterns of the mouse pad, a pattern that aren't always optimal for that purpose?
Looking at two razor sharp points of light, is much better than what a mouse has to deal with.

 

[jgkspsx]

Why should it be more fragile than an optical mouse that looks at the shifting patterns of the mouse pad, a pattern that aren't always optimal for that purpose?
Looking at two razor sharp points of light, is much better than what a mouse has to deal with.

The camera in an optical mouse detects motion, not position. Extrapolating position in 3D space from two or three (I thought it was three?) points of light and the lag time of your wireless connection seems fragile to me. I'm interested to see real technical analyses, though.

 

[Earthstrike]

While it is possible it is rather complexed and easy to lose track of the controller. Translating it all would in the end not work well even if you can use all information to do a "qualified guess" of where the remote is.

http://tomahawk.ytmnd.com/

 

[Chrono]

i think the most common misconception is that it's an achieved innovation with real gaming applications and not a cheap carny trick

haha.

I don't know what's more awesome - this quote or the tearful wiitards bitching about it. :lol

Perhaps? Nintendo, like with the stylus, *will*. The wii remote isn't likely to be fully realized until a year or so down the line, though

Will? Nintendo mentioned plenty of times that they know they had to prove the wii from the moment its unveiled unlike the DS. And all we got was mini-game compilations. Oh yeah, and a mario game which could be done with a gcn controller.


The funny thing about the DS comparison is that the MAJORITY of the most popular DS games DON'T use the styles in any 'innovative' way. And yet we keep hearing about how a year from now it'll be different.


Unlike the DS though, a bunch of good traditional games a year later won't help against ps3 and 360. We all have seen everything the psp could do on ps2/xbox/gcn - it was nothing special outside of being a handheld. Against true next-gen killer apps a slew of traditional gcn games with some tacked on waggle wouldn't be a bad thing for those getting a wii but they won't change wii's fate like they did with the ds.

 

[Squeak]

The camera in an optical mouse detects motion, not position. Extrapolating position in 3D space from two or three (I thought it was three?) points of light and the lag time of your wireless connection seems fragile to me. I'm interested to see real technical analyses, though.

It detects the position of the LEDs in the its visual field.

With, let's say, four bit per pixel and a resolution of the IR-CCD of 320x240, the total resolution would be 5120x3840. This of course, is just a wild guess but the realworld specs are probably not too far away from those numbers.
Z detection might not be as precise as x, y but in most game situations, that shouldn't really matter.
Lag of wireless connection is most likely as bad as Wavebird, the 360 controller or the Sixaxis, which is to say, not at all bad.

 

[Branduil]

i think the most common misconception is that it's an achieved innovation with real gaming applications and not a cheap carny trick

Preach it brother! You must show them the light! Only you can bring salvation to the ignorant masses!

 

[jgkspsx]

Lag of wireless connection is most likely as bad as Wavebird, the 360 controller or the Sixaxis, which is to say, not at all bad.

No, no you use response time of the wireless connection to sense distance, assuming the controller has a sufficiently fast processor or maybe a fast, dumb PIC or something to calculate and hold the Z position. This is assuming the "bluetooth" babbling a few months ago was legitimate. I'm still waiting on a real autopsy, though.

 

[gamergirly]

http://tomahawk.ytmnd.com/

Sounds like Physics :lol

 

[Squeak]

No, no you use response time of the wireless connection to sense distance, assuming the controller has a sufficiently fast processor or maybe a fast, dumb PIC or something to calculate and hold the Z position. This is assuming the "bluetooth" babbling a few months ago was legitimate. I'm still waiting on a real autopsy, though.

What are talking about?! Wireless sensing distance?! :lol That's very close to impossible, especially within the budget of the Wii.
Why do you think there are two LED points on the sensorbar? It's so the wiimote can look at the nearing or distancing of the two points for z information.

 

[UltimaKilo]

I have no idea how you came under the impression that its not possible.
.

Hmm... stupidity?

 

[dasein]

Is the Wii controller for the Wii system?

Just wondering

 

[Jonnyboy117]

I guess Zelda is a 3rd person game. Can anyone weigh in on how mundane stuff like camera controls work in that. I've seen all the goofy Bow&Arrow demos, but not regular gameplay.

That's because there is no regular gameplay. Zelda started off as an adventure game but has been converted into a collection of mini-games which show off the amazing potential of the Wii Remote. The GC version is coming out late so Nintendo can have enough time to convert the Wii version's gameplay into an on-screen cursor controlled with the joystick.

 

[jgkspsx]

What are talking about?! Wireless sensing distance?! :lol That's very close to impossible, especially within the budget of the Wii.

...

You do realize that that's how cell tower arrays track cell phones, right? (Granted, distances are much further.) Some Nintendo rep said it used bluetooth for distance sensing way back when. Didn't make much sense at the time, I suppose

I hadn't thought of using the distance between the individual lights for judging the distance. It's a neat idea, though it would seem to have limitations, too. I guess you can't go too far to the side of the screen anyway.

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

You guys that think the wiimote can do full 3d tracking.


Can you explain to me how the wiimote is tracking in 3d space.

 

[dock]

I've been playing with the Wiimote quite a bit recently (devkit). I'm pretty certain you could configure it to work *like* a lightgun with a bit of configuration. Just ask the player to stand where they want to play from and point at the corners, and you'd know the range to treat like a lightgun.

That said, the pointer movement scheme is in many ways more comfortable than a lightgun.

 

[M3wThr33]

You guys that think the wiimote can do full 3d tracking.


Can you explain to me how the wiimote is tracking in 3d space.

Triangulates your position. Each side of the bar has an LED and the console is the third.

 

[Keru_Shiri]

I had a feeling this thread was a stealth troll. I should've known better.

 

[Filter]

So basically, nobody has a ****ing clue what's going on with the Wiimote.

 

[yanhero]

What I find funny is people calling the wiimote a gimmick in such games as tennis or fishing, yet they think a steering wheel for a racing game provides a much deeper experience.

 

[KINGMOKU]

I had a feeling this thread was a stealth troll. I should've known better.

GAF truly has moved into a new age. Now,not only are there trolls, stealth trolls, and sanctioned trolls, we now have entire threads as trolls.


A new first! :lol

 

[_Alkaline_]

I've been playing with the Wiimote quite a bit recently (devkit). I'm pretty certain you could configure it to work *like* a lightgun with a bit of configuration. Just ask the player to stand where they want to play from and point at the corners, and you'd know the range to treat like a lightgun.

That said, the pointer movement scheme is in many ways more comfortable than a lightgun.

Are you a developer? Or just got to try out Wii?

 

[drohne]

a force-feedback steering wheel does far more for a racing game than the waggle wand does for any game in particular. as long as developers use 'gestural' controls instead of 1:1 mapping, the advantage of the waggle wand lies in whatever enjoyment you might find in swinging your arm around.

 

[yanhero]

I understand what you mean, as we have not really seen any Wii game that uses 1:1 movement effectively at the moment. But you say a steering wheel does "far more" for a racing game than a wiimote does for any game in particular, the only advantage the steering wheel provides is a better simulation of what one would actually do in a racing game - exactly what swinging a wiimote does in a tennis game for example.

 

[drohne]

a good force feedback wheel is far more precise than an analog stick and gives you very sophisticated tactile feedback -- though certainly there's the 'realism' element as well. i don't think there's much point to the cheapy console steering wheels that predated the driving force.

 

[Branduil]

a force-feedback steering wheel does far more for a racing game than the waggle wand does for any game in particular. as long as developers use 'gestural' controls instead of 1:1 mapping, the advantage of the waggle wand lies in whatever enjoyment you might find in swinging your arm around.

And if you do enjoy swinging your arm around, you're clearly a horrible person not worthy of the prestigious and respected title of "gamer."