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The Official Halo 3 Thread

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urk said:
Part of what I love about these discussions and why I'm very content with Bungie's decision not to spell everything out for us. We get to disagree and bounce these things back and forth.

I wasn't looking at it from the perspective that the removal of the sentient species was the cause of the harm to non-sentients, but rather the devotion to saving the sentients diverting resources and attention away from everything else while the Flood busied itself with its inexorable consumption of all lifeforms unfortunate enough to be in its path and palatable.

So more of the idea that the Forerunners could not extend themselves far and wide enough to handle the indexing of all life, that they instead had to prioritize, and as a result, many non-sentients and the worlds they occupied were wholly consumed by the Flood's onslaught.

This also supports the comment about the paucity of sentient beings. The scarcity of sentience was a blessing because had it been more prevalent, the Forerunners would have had even more difficulty with their indexing mandate and even more non-sentients would have been lost as they struggled to fulfill their role as guardians.
That's an interesting perspective.

I've always taken that passage to mean that Librarian was talking specifically about the worlds which the indexing was occurring on – as in the removal of sentient beings on those specific worlds would throw them into disarray, causing large-scale extinction events as a crucial part of their ecosystem was rent free. The reason ‘the paucity of sentience’ line would still work is that it refers to the fact that the fewer the sentient beings to archive, the lesser amount of worlds which their removal would damn to extinction.

The main reason I say this is that the Librarian was not an adherent of the Mantle/Guardianship, so I would doubt she would ever even reference it outside of fervent hatred for it.

I like this conversation though. Really cool and comments have been opened there if you want to take this discussion elsewhere. I’m fine with it here too.
 

urk

butthole fishhooking yes
Definitely one way to look at it. But would they actually transport live beings to be the progenitors of each reseeded world? I always assumed the Index was pure data - a cataloged library of DNA records that could be used by AI routines and machinery to repopulate planetary bodies after the array had cut it's path of destruction across the galaxy.

The very term "reseed" conjures that in my mind. Taking living beings and transplanting them is repopulation. Beginning them anew from their most basic source...that's seeding.

That would also explain why the Index would be so integral to the firing of the array. If the information required to reseed the galaxy was not prepared and readily available to complete the process, then what would be the point of firing the array? At that point, no matter if it's the Flood or the Forerunner who end all life, the outcome is the same. Everything dies.

With the Index, the array is able to begin life anew once the Flood infection has been wiped clean.
 
With more new maps coming out, and SWAT being added, I'm really tempted to start playing Halo 3 again. I've been playing it here and there, but I might sit down to play a little more often again soon.
 
ToyMachine228 said:
With more new maps coming out, and SWAT being added, I'm really tempted to start playing Halo 3 again. I've been playing it here and there, but I might sit down to play a little more often again soon.
I think SWAT is gone for the time being. It was only a special weekend playlist...unless Bungie decides to make it permanent and ranked as a way to "make it up to the fans" for its too-early exit yesterday.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
The way the back story in Halo 3 was told is interesting, but it lost me. I followed a lot of this stuff through the games and ARGs, right up until Halo 3. I don't know why I was expecting the story telling to become less opaque, not more, but I found them inpenetrable and simply stopped caring about it. It's cool that there's meat there for the hardcore to chew over, but I'd thought myself among that group until this game hit. Now I have no idea what you guys are even talking about. Halo 3 made me go from caring deeply about the Halo story to simply wanting to shoot dudes.
 

urk

butthole fishhooking yes
GhaleonEB said:
The way the back story in Halo 3 was told is interesting, but it lost me. I followed a lot of this stuff through the games and ARGs, right up until Halo 3. I don't know why I was expecting the story telling to become less opaque, not more, but I found them inpenetrable and simply stopped caring about it. It's cool that there's meat there for the hardcore to chew over, but I'd thought myself among that group until this game hit. Now I have no idea what you guys are even talking about. Halo 3 made me go from caring deeply about the Halo story to simply wanting to shoot dudes.

:(
 
urk said:
I always assumed the Index was pure data - a cataloged library of DNA records that could be used by AI routines and machinery to repopulate planetary bodies after the array had cut it's path of destruction across the galaxy.
That’s an interesting concept to say the least and I’ve considered it more than once.

I don’t have it readily available, but the Beastiarum has a section which talks about the different tiers of sentience and once of the sections speaks of the Precursors and the Forerunners. The Precursors could shift the flow of evolution, but this was not a trait of their heirs, the Forerunners. At least that we’re not aware of, which would be my first cause of doubt in your proposal.

I also think these lines (Didact/Librarian convo) from the terminals themselves indicate that the Forerunners are shipping physical populations (perhaps not the entire population, but large portions of them) to the Ark with the intent on sending them back through the transit measure we see midway through Halo 3. Otherwise, what would be the purpose of the Keyships to begin with if only raw data was being transferred?

How formal of you, Librarian. We’re receiving shipments of indexed beings more frequently that communications. Don’t compound scarcity with brevity.
I certainly can’t justify using the [transit measure] to save my own skin when there are still so many innocents to protect and index.
- this line indicates that they are 'protecting' 'so many innocents.' They're concerned about saving the living, not just perpetuating their race.

Every vessel we can fill, we send to the Ark....I'm close to saving them all.
I’ve remotely destroyed our Keyships. A security measure. Without them I cannot reach the Ark. But neither then can the thing. I’m trapped. On a beautiful, empty world. Its inhabitants have been safely indexed, every single one of them.
- why would she consider Earth empty if they were simplying indexing humanity's DNA?

Anyways, this conversation's pretty damn fun. Very refreshing in the wake of an average Halo matchmaking experience to be reminded that there are people who play the games and think about them.
 
GhaleonEB said:
The way the back story in Halo 3 was told is interesting, but it lost me. I followed a lot of this stuff through the games and ARGs, right up until Halo 3. I don't know why I was expecting the story telling to become less opaque, not more, but I found them inpenetrable and simply stopped caring about it. It's cool that there's meat there for the hardcore to chew over, but I'd thought myself among that group until this game hit. Now I have no idea what you guys are even talking about. Halo 3 made me go from caring deeply about the Halo story to simply wanting to shoot dudes.
I agree. The story is cool but I'm more amazed by the technology and the production quality. The story in the manual is enough for me.

excellent writing in that manual btw ;)
 
GhaleonEB said:
The way the back story in Halo 3 was told is interesting, but it lost me. I followed a lot of this stuff through the games and ARGs, right up until Halo 3. I don't know why I was expecting the story telling to become less opaque, not more, but I found them inpenetrable and simply stopped caring about it. It's cool that there's meat there for the hardcore to chew over, but I'd thought myself among that group until this game hit. Now I have no idea what you guys are even talking about. Halo 3 made me go from caring deeply about the Halo story to simply wanting to shoot dudes.
Yeah, this is disheartening. I guess this is an acceptable catalyst for them unfortunately; hopefully Bungie's next series is more devoted to story up front since, as was pointed out earlier, they've got gameplay down to a fine art.

Personally, I have more problems with the dialogue in the Halo trilogy as a whole than the story, graphics or any other element. I think there's a real gaping disparity between really great lines and word choices (Truth, Guilty Spark, Arbiter) and really corny ones (Johnson, Cdr. Keyes, Hood). Maybe it's just the humans or maybe I just don't favor that balance they've struck of lighthearted and slapstick lines against the iconic and emotive ones.

It's like putting ketchup in your vanilla ice cream - apart those items work on their own, but together they are not equal to the sum of their parts.
 

urk

butthole fishhooking yes
Mr Vociferous said:
The Precursors could shift the flow of evolution, but this was not a trait of their heirs, the Forerunners. At least that we’re not aware of, which would be my first cause of doubt in your proposal.

I don't think they would need to influence evolution directly. Merely institute cloning procedures from DNA records. Humanity is on the doorstep of such an event in today's age. It shouldn't seem so far fetched that the Forerunners would have a mastery of such techniques.

The rest, obviously, is far more damning to my position, so I should probably concede that live beings were being transported. It does seem to be the case from those lines. But I'd also point out that seldom are things so literal when dealing with the Forerunner. Allusion and metaphor are often used to describe events, as they are being interpreted post-cataclysm. It would not be out of bounds to interpret vessel as a container for information as opposed to a literal space faring ship, nor would it be too far of a leap to assume that an empty world would be one where an alien being would await her death with no companionship.

Still, if sentient and non-sentient life was being physically transported (an amazingly daunting task by any stretch of the technological imagination), then the environments found on the individual Halo components are left without explanation. We could assume they were used as habitat for Flood study, but then we know they were contained and isolated and none of the biomes we see show any sign of Flood infestation prior to the Covenants meddling. It's been left pristine.

And that also leaves the relevance of the Index in question. If it is merely a key for turning, then the Forerunners were monumentally stupid. If the importance stops at it being a physical object required to light the rings, then its only purpose is as a potential failing point of the array in the event of an emergency. Say, a rouge AI barreling toward the Ark, or something like that.

I guess in the end, I find it hard to believe that trillions of organic lifeforms could be carted anywhere via any method.
 

TimeLike

Member
urk said:
I guess in the end, I find it hard to believe that trillions of organic lifeforms could be carted anywhere via any method.

The Forerunners mobilised the resources of a galaxy. Boxing up some critters and shipping them doesn't seem like such a stretch to me.


"mobilised the resources of a galaxy" is part of a sentence from a sci-fi book by Stephen Baxter.
 

urk

butthole fishhooking yes
"Some," sure. Entire worlds in transit down to every last organic being?

And now that I think if it, there's a bit of a contradiction in play as well. Were the Forerunners incapable of salvaging all life due to the remarkably immense task of saving sentient beings that they allowed non-sentients to become extinct or were they able to clear away all life on Earth, even as the very last moment dawned on them, when the least resources were available to complete the task?

Doesn't seem to mate up to me unless again, we're not talking about losing species to resources, and rather losing them to infestation or flat out destruction.
 
urk said:
I don't think they would need to influence evolution directly. Merely institute cloning procedures from DNA records. Humanity is on the doorstep of such an event in today's age. It shouldn't seem so far fetched that the Forerunners would have a mastery of such techniques.
I agree that they wouldn't need to influence evolution directly, but I think if they had the ability to reseed a planet from nil, altering evolution would be but an afterthought. I don't know the parallels between Halo's fiction and the real world - or how Bungie gauges them. There are a lot of items and concepts in the Halo fiction which are outdated, despite it being five hundred years later.

I think if it serves the fiction well, regardless of certain plausibility, Bungie feels like it can be included. We could take this concept from the weapons and vehicles they use (some of which have been surpassed by our military circa 1995) all the way to whether or not the Forerunners could reseed an entire world. It's a balancing act between fun and believability.

One way to look at it would be: The Forerunners had ample opportunities to test their reseeding abilities on their artificial worlds - of which we can assume were plenty between the Halo Array and the Onyx Project. Perhaps they found that anything but a physical relocation was incapable of properly doing what need be done in a timely manner.

Still, if sentient and non-sentient life was being physically transported (an amazingly daunting task by any stretch of the technological imagination), then the environments found on the individual Halo components are left without explanation. We could assume they were used as habitat for Flood study, but then we know they were contained and isolated and none of the biomes we see show any sign of Flood infestation prior to the Covenants meddling. It's been left pristine.
I wouldn't abandon the notion of non-contained Flood study just yet - we don't know what liberties they took before the Array went live. After building the Array, it's obvious that huge risks were commonplace.

It is also likely that the Forerunners came from a variety of walks of life and planets, they may have even been more than one species. These different environments could be part of that same theme - being that some Forerunners lived their lives on the ringworlds. We know they thought the preservation of diversity was hallowed above all others - this could have easily extended to the non-sentient life of the installations and its geology/ecosystems.

And that also leaves the relevance of the Index in question. If it is merely a key for turning, then the Forerunners were monumentally stupid. If the importance stops at it being a physical object required to light the rings, then its only purpose is as a potential failing point of the array in the event of an emergency. Say, a rouge AI barreling toward the Ark, or something like that.
Mendicantly speaking, how probable is that? I mean really? :D

Yeah, it's a daunting thing to be certain. I think there's something to be said for the literal interpretation of the book of Genesis when it comes to the analogies we see in the Halo fiction. I think I read somewhere that Staten's father was a minister? I am not surprised in the least, if that is the case.

Also...we don't know how many sentient beings were on these planets. Humanity, it is said, has more people on its surface now than it did for the first four thousand years of our recorded history - combined. Remember, we're not talking about all organisms - just the sentient species.

It's clear, however, that Conservation Measure was a big job, and when I say big I mean motherfucking massive.
 

TimeLike

Member
I don't think entire worldfulls of plants and animals were transported. It doesn't take world to keep me going. I could survive on a barren halo with just some soy paste and water dispensers.

It's just a temporary dislocation anyway. After the Halos fire, the worlds can be repopulated with the preserved sentients.
 

TDG

Banned
Blueblur1 said:
While a lot of that is fascinating its upsetting to me that a lot of details like that are never brought to your attention in Halo 3. I have a strong dislike for the terminals as its great story material that should have been presented in the main story. It really rich content thats left hidden unless you go looking for it. And then when you do find them, there is no menu screen or anything that will allow to go back and read the entries without having to spend time playing the campaign levels again.
Yeah, I know you made this post awhile ago, etc, but I just want to revisit this for a moment, and once again comment on how much I hate 99% of all Halo fans.

Halo 2 was a game that expanded on the universe from Halo 1 so much, it's crazy. We learned a lot more about the UNSC and the Halo Installations and the Forerunners, but most of all, Halo 2 expanded on what we knew about the Covenant. It's pretty mind-blowing to think about how little we knew about the Covenant at the end of Halo 1 and how much we knew about the Covenant at the end of Halo 1. At the end of Halo 1, we knew that the Covenant were at war with the Humans, they were winning, they were made up of Grunts, Hunters, Jackals and Elites, and they had some messed-up ideas about the Halo. Halo 2 brought so much more to the story, it put hardcore Halo fans in bliss. However, the Halo 2 story was disliked by many fans of the first game, and many others just payed no attention to it. Some didn't like playing as a character other than Green Brick 117, some hated Gravemind, and most hated the ending, but in the end, the story was the subject of a lot of criticism. Sadly, this led to Halo 3's main story being a big step back from the ambition of Halo 2, with Space Brick 117 being the only playable character, and the story being very scaled-back and simplified over all.

Bungie probably would have been criticized a lot if they had explored the Forerunner in the main story the way they did with the Covenant in Halo 2. Happily, they worked out a nice compromise where those of us who do care about the story and would be happy to search every nook and cranny of the game to find more information about the Halo universe can find some really interesting information about the Forerunners that is well suited for the terminals. This information leaves a lot to the imagination which results in interesting conversations like the one Urk and Voc are having right now.

So, while I would rather have a lot of information from the terminals in the main story, I understand why they chose to keep the main story a lot more simplistic, and I'm glad that they still included interesting backstory tidbits in the game for those of us who care.
 

urk

butthole fishhooking yes
Mr Vociferous said:
I wouldn't abandon the notion of non-contained Flood study just yet - we don't know what liberties they took before the Array went live. After building the Array, it's obvious that huge risks were commonplace.

I was assuming the Flood remained contained on the rings since there is no physical evidence of infestation in the areas we've seen that were not infected post-Covenant bungling. There's nothing like what you see evidence in Isolation, for instance. No physical alterations.

Mr Vociferous said:
It is also likely that the Forerunners came from a variety of walks of life and planets, they may have even been more than one species. These different environments could be part of that same theme - being that some Forerunners lived their lives on the ring worlds. We know they thought the preservation of diversity was hallowed above all others - this could have easily extended to the non-sentient life of the installations and its geology/ecosystems.

As stupid as it sounds, I had never thought of the rings as habitat for Forerunner. Obviously they would have had personnel stationed at each Installation. Silly me. Yet, most of the geology we are privy to appears pristine. It's vast swaths of land and see and ice dotted with the rare facility. Of course, it's all underpinned by Forerunner latticework. I assumed they'd all have hung out down there.

;)

Also, I've been PM'd by an official entity who referenced my initial post on the subject (41840) with the heading "Better, Closer, Warmer" and a brief response of only, "The Librarian."

Dust and echoes, indeed.
 

valparaiso

I had an Al Sharpton friend...Once! Well not a friend really, but we talked a few times. Well one time. Well I yelled out my window "GET OFF MY LAWN!"
fuuuuckkkkkk.gif

six games in a row with teammates with a -10 or worse k/d ratio
 
urk said:
Also, I've been PM'd by an official entity who referenced my initial post on the subject (41840) with the heading "Better, Closer, Warmer" and a brief response of only, "The Librarian."
Hah, well maybe I'm the one who's not interpreting the text properly. I only have hate mail from Didact in my inbox.
 

soldat7

Member
the disgruntled gamer said:
So, while I would rather have a lot of information from the terminals in the main story, I understand why they chose to keep the main story a lot more simplistic, and I'm glad that they still included interesting backstory tidbits in the game for those of us who care.

Perhaps a first-person shooter format is not capable of truly conveying a story as deep and as rich as the one found in Halo to the mass market. That said I think Bungie could have taken things a bit further than a series of 10-30 second cut-scenes that really didn't convey much in the grand scheme.

There has to be a happy medium, there has to be!
 

urk

butthole fishhooking yes
I addition to my "thoughts" I'd also point out that the Halo array is not designed as a single fire system. But what is clear is that the collection of sentient life is. It makes little sense that the Forerunners would go to such ends to collect all sentient life, fire the array, reseed and set up the newly populated galaxy for a conclusion that could inevitably (and probably) result the same "solution."

Having DNA information stored in the Index eliminates the need to recollect each and every galactic species.

Librarians collect, store, and organize recorded information. An index is used to provide pointers to collected information for location and retrieval. These are the literal definitions, of course.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
the disgruntled gamer said:
Bungie probably would have been criticized a lot if they had explored the Forerunner in the main story the way they did with the Covenant in Halo 2. Happily, they worked out a nice compromise where those of us who do care about the story and would be happy to search every nook and cranny of the game to find more information about the Halo universe can find some really interesting information about the Forerunners that is well suited for the terminals. This information leaves a lot to the imagination which results in interesting conversations like the one Urk and Voc are having right now.

So, while I would rather have a lot of information from the terminals in the main story, I understand why they chose to keep the main story a lot more simplistic, and I'm glad that they still included interesting backstory tidbits in the game for those of us who care.
See, that's the thing. I cared deeply about Halo's story. The story in Halo 2 is my personal favorite in any game, ever. Story was what I was looking forward to the most in Halo 3. The main narrative arc in Halo 3 is over-simplified, and the dialog is very hit or miss. So that meant to get anything worthwhile from the story, it's down to the terminals. And the terminals are simply too hardcore for me. That's the schism in Halo 3's storytelling: the main story is so dumbed down that it lost me, and the terminals are so opaque and challenging that they lost me on the other end. I'm sure you'll dismiss this as "wah wah wah", but I'm actually quite saddened by the turn Bungie took with their fiction.
 
urk said:
I addition to my "thoughts" I'd also point out that the Halo array is not designed as a single fire system. But what is clear is that the collection of sentient life is. It makes little sense that the Forerunners would go to such ends to collect all sentient life, fire the array, reseed and set up the newly populated galaxy for a conclusion that could inevitably (and probably) result the same "solution."

Having DNA information stored in the Index eliminates the need to recollect each and every galactic species.

Librarians collect, store, and organize recorded information. An index is used to provide pointers to collected information for location and retrieval. These are the literal definitions, of course.
It makes sense. 343 Guilty Spark talks about the Librarian's archive during the terminals.

Warning: Your intrusion has been logged.

04-343 (errant): Excuse me?

Your intrusion has been logged. And now it has been halted.

04-343 (errant): On whose authority?

Advice: Any further attempt to access [insects under stones] will
result in your immediate addition to the local Sentinels' targeting
ledger.

04-343 (errant): Vexation! I am the Monitor of--

Judgment: Your authority means nothing here.

04-343 (errant): Impatience!

04-343 (errant): I have told you who I am. Who are you?

All our makers once held dear.

[Alexandria before the Fire].

04-343 (errant): Sincere apology. But how--

Explanation: This facility is host to the [Librarian’s] final--

04-343 (errant): The archive is intact?! Then our makers' plan--


But also contains [bellows, crucible, castings]

04-343 (errant): A what?

[bellows, crucible]--

04-343 (errant): A foundry?

04-343 (errant): For what purpose?!

Warning: Your intrusion has been logged.

Advice: Any further attempt to access will result--

04-343 (errant): Indignant!

--immediate addition to local Sentinels' targeting ledger.

I see you, Reclaimer.
 

snacknuts

we all knew her
NJ x Falkor said:
Fact.

I wasn't concerned about Halo's story until I stumbled upon Ascendant Justice and Voc's writeups on the Halo 3 Data Archive.

Bungie has concocted this universe that is so fucking intriguing, and the cock-tease manor in which they're releasing more and more of the universe just keeps me wanting more.

They really have some beasts writing for them, and if Staten's Harvest is any indication of how the rest of the Halo Universe is going to be fleshed out.... then my head's gonna fuckin' explode.

I think the Playboy Mansion should be renamed to this.
 

urk

butthole fishhooking yes
Mr Vociferous said:
It makes sense. 343 Guilty Spark talks about the Librarian's archive during the terminals.

The Libraries of Alexandria were vast stores of information unparalleled in their time. Doesn't directly address whether or not the information contained in the Installations' libraries would be genetic in nature, or simply a great catalog of Forerunner knowledge (or both), but it seems Frankie is here now to clear things up for us.

;)

Also, there's always this gem from Guilty Spark 343:

The installation was specifically built to study and contain the Flood. Their survival as a race was dependent upon it. I am grateful to see that some of them survived to reproduce.

Again, this doesn't uncover anything new about the individual Installations, but it does mark them as facilities designed primarily to study Flood.

Yet, we're still left with the evidence you presented showing each ring having unique geographic attributes, none revealing any indication that the Forerunner intentionally allowed the parasite to roam outside of their containment systems, for study or otherwise. As far as we know, they remained safely stored until the Covenant started breaching the security systems.
 

Kuroyume

Banned
Well, it was fine for me before the update. It was laggy after the update and then I put the game down for N+ and Lumines Live! until a few days ago... Maybe my history has to build up or whatever...
 
Manbabies' Reunion tomorrow confirmed.

crying_baby.jpg
 

GhaleonEB

Member
snack said:
Stinkles? STINKLES?
Tomorrow. It's a wide window. FWIW, unless Microsoft moves their PR again, MS PR usually goes out in the morning, pacific time. Looking back on the press releases I've been sent, only a few have ever come out later than ~11:00 pacific time, and those were NPD and HD-DVD related announcements, responding to news that broke late in the day.

But then, the bungie.net reveal of Avalanche was disconnected from the timing of the MS PR last week, so that may not mean anything.
 
GhaleonEB said:
Tomorrow. It's a wide window. FWIW, unless Microsoft moves their PR again, MS PR usually goes out in the morning, pacific time. Looking back on the press releases I've been sent, only a few have ever come out later than ~11:00 pacific time, and those were NPD and HD-DVD related announcements, responding to news that broke late in the day.

But then, the bungie.net reveal of Avalanche was disconnected from the timing of the MS PR last week, so that may not mean anything.
I know but I want ot know if I should hit up Bungie.net before school, wait until lunch, or check it when I get home from school? Before you say it, no I'd rather not wait.
 
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