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[Ms.Galaxy]

Demonizing it is exactly what stops a lot of it and makes people, like your friend, understand that it's wrong and that they should never act on it. You all talk about the supposed benefits of not demonizing it, but you gloss over that demonizing it actually does stop people with those urges from doing it.

Demonizing never works, it just makes a lot of good innocent people suffer and take their own lives or push them to a life of crime.

 

[KHarvey16]

Excellent post friend, but your post will be glossed over and your character will be slandered by the crusading KHarvey.

It's not a good post. It's a simple minded, childish view of a problem that isn't being handled correctly. It's full of strawmen (who is asking for anyone to cheer pedophiles who don't abuse or contribute to the abuse of children?) and demonstrates an unwillingness or an inability to even almost sort of understand what people are actually arguing. You and he both have your ears plugged with your own sense of indignation at the suggestion we try to understand something instead of immediately getting rid of these people when we find out who they are.

 

[Cream]

I wonder if some of the people in the thread would feel differently about the issue if their son or daughter came to them and confessed that they had sexual desires for children.

"Not human"...jesus christ.

 

[GameGuru59]

Demonizing it is exactly what stops a lot of it and makes people, like your friend, understand that it's wrong and that they should never act on it. You all talk about the supposed benefits of not demonizing it, but you gloss over that demonizing it actually does stop people with those urges from doing it.

I don't think anyone is calling for people to stop demonizing people who rape 8 year olds, anymore than anyone is calling for people to stop demonizing people who rape women. What we should be seeking to stop demonizing is the condition of being sexual attracted to children, just like we should stop demonizing the condition of sexual obsession in general (which can lead to rape). These a treatable conditions, and people shouldn't be afraid to seek help for them, anymore than one seeks help for suicidal thoughts.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

An incredibly late reply, but I might as well post it:

Empathy for pedophiles (that have not acted out on their desires) stems from the now increasingly accepted position that they have no control over their sexual desire. They have to live with something they know is wrong, can never enjoy a healthy, consensual sexual relationship like the majority of us, and risk losing their job, friends, and family if their secret is found out. This must be a living hell for those who want to be a part of society, yet know they can never change their sexual orientation-even if they wanted to- and therefore, cannot ever truly belong. They see the hate that society gives them, and many hate themselves, as a result.

At the same time, most realize that demonizing pedophiles has a net negative effect on the prevention of child sexual abuse. Of course, those who can't control themselves will still be offenders, but those who are struggling have less incentive to not hold back when they see an aggressive environment that despises them. Eventually, they may develop an attitude where they just don't care about the moral ramifications because they are not imparted by the public any sense of humanity, and thus, feel like they are not bound by it. Offering them therapy, while pursuing research into the subject to possibly fix the cause neurologically will hopefully result in a decrease of offenses, and will also give them more fulfilling lives (although, I know most people don't care about that).

Here's some research that points to a biological origin of pedophilia (link directs to U of Toronto's James Cantor PhD's blog and findings):
http://individual.utoronto.ca/james_cantor/blog2.html

I hope this didn't come off as standoffish.

I do think people on both sides of the argument should take the time to read that article.

Good post.

Demonizing it is exactly what stops a lot of it and makes people, like your friend, understand that it's wrong and that they should never act on it. You all talk about the supposed benefits of not demonizing it, but you gloss over that demonizing it actually does stop people with those urges from doing it.

Yes and no. There should be a balance betweeen demonizing and normalizing. When something is demonized too much, it drives people into a corner, which is when they're most likely to act. This is something largely-accepted, not an outlandish claim about human psychology.

I think anonymous support groups and some of the recent less hostile news articles/documentaries/etc are a good start.

I can't imagine a professional calling the cops on someone right away if he didn't act on any of those urges.

I definitely can. Only recently (like 2012 or something) has it been accepted as a disorder that may have nothing to do with external factors and actually be a legitimate neurological issue from birth. Research is slow.

 

[Speevy]

It is an avoidable consequence of living in society that a person will gain access to children.

Giving those adults who have sexual feelings about those children the strongest possible rebuke seems like a rational response, especially from the child's parents.

Given the choice of having a pedophile never being born in the first place, or having him struggle with the decision of whether he wants to have sex with kids, I'm sorry...but I'd prefer he not exist.

 

[Vermillion]

It's not a good post. It's a simple minded, childish view of a problem that isn't being handled correctly. It's full of strawmen (who is asking for anyone to cheer pedophiles who don't abuse or contribute to the abuse of children?) and demonstrates an unwillingness or an inability to even almost sort of understand what people are actually arguing. You and he both have your ears plugged with your own sense of indignation at the suggestion we try to understand something instead of immediately getting rid of these people when we find out who they are.

Should we celebrate these people for resisting their urges? In my opinion, yes, because they're struggling to overcome not only lust and taboo, but also society's label on them as monsters that need to be executed for even having thoughts.

demonstrates an unwillingness or an inability to even almost sort of understand what people are actually arguing.[...]ears plugged with your own sense of indignation[...]

.

 

[KHarvey16]

It is an avoidable consequence of living in society that a person will gain access to children.

Giving those adults who have sexual feelings about those children the strongest possible rebuke seems like a rational response, especially from the child's parents.

Given the choice between rehabilitating a pedophile by having him never being born in the first place, or having struggle with the decision of whether he wants to have sex with kids, I'm sorry...but I'd prefer he not exist.

How much of you preferring he not exist do we need before pedophiles stop raping children?

.

Oh so everyone. Good catch.

 

[Speevy]

How much of you preferring he not exist do we need before pedophiles stop raping children?



Oh so everyone. Good catch.

I don't actually think we're on opposing sides of this issue, so I'm not sure why you quoted me.

 

[GameGuru59]

Given the choice between rehabilitating a pedophile by having him never being born in the first place, or having struggle with the decision of whether he wants to have sex with kids, I'm sorry...but I'd prefer he not exist.

That is some real dangerous "logic," my friend. You could replace "pedophile" with "gay", and head straight to Uganda.

 

[Wafflecakes]

It is an avoidable consequence of living in society that a person will gain access to children.

Giving those adults who have sexual feelings about those children the strongest possible rebuke seems like a rational response, especially from the child's parents.

Given the choice of having a pedophile never being born in the first place, or having him struggle with the decision of whether he wants to have sex with kids, I'm sorry...but I'd prefer he not exist.

...and this matters because?

They do exist. So you already lost that battle.

 

[Vermillion]

Oh so everyone. Good catch.

(who is asking for anyone to cheer pedophiles who don't abuse or contribute to the abuse of children?)

strawmen

.

 

[The Lamp]

An incredibly late reply, but I might as well post it:

Empathy for pedophiles (that have not acted out on their desires) stems from the now increasingly accepted position that they have no control over their sexual desire. They have to live with something they know is wrong, can never enjoy a healthy, consensual sexual relationship like the majority of us, and risk losing their job, friends, and family if their secret is found out. This must be a living hell for those who want to be a part of society, yet know they can never change their sexual orientation-even if they wanted to- and therefore, cannot ever truly belong. They see the hate that society gives them, and many hate themselves, as a result.

At the same time, most realize that demonizing pedophiles has a net negative effect on the prevention of child sexual abuse. Of course, those who can't control themselves will still be offenders, but those who are struggling have less incentive to not hold back when they see an aggressive environment that despises them. Eventually, they may develop an attitude where they just don't care about the moral ramifications because they are not imparted by the public any sense of humanity, and thus, feel like they are not bound by it. Offering them therapy, while pursuing research into the subject to possibly fix the cause neurologically will hopefully result in a decrease of offenses, and will also give them more fulfilling lives (although, I know most people don't care about that).

Here's some research that points to a biological origin of pedophilia (link directs to U of Toronto's James Cantor PhD's blog and findings):
http://individual.utoronto.ca/james_cantor/blog2.html

I hope this didn't come off as standoffish.

One of the only reasonable posts in this thread

 

[KHarvey16]

.

Read the post that's in response to.

 

[Speevy]

That is some real dangerous "logic," my friend. You could replace "pedophile" with "gay", and head straight to Uganda.

Homosexuals have every right to happiness because they want the same rights straight couples enjoy, and they want to sleep with whatever consenting adult they desire. Their fight is a righteous one, which is why all but a handful of states have legalized gay marriage.

Children are not by definition consenting adults. Wanting to sleep with them is inherently wrong. No one deserves the right to to this.

 

[dead souls]

That is some real dangerous "logic," my friend. You could replace "pedophile" with "gay", and head straight to Uganda.

Not this shit again. There is absolutely no comparison between being gay and being a pedophile.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

It is an avoidable consequence of living in society that a person will gain access to children.

Giving those adults who have sexual feelings about those children the strongest possible rebuke seems like a rational response, especially from the child's parents.

Given the choice of having a pedophile never being born in the first place, or having him struggle with the decision of whether he wants to have sex with kids, I'm sorry...but I'd prefer he not exist.

but they exist, so what's the point of even thinking about the choice?

 

[Einbroch]

It is an avoidable consequence of living in society that a person will gain access to children.

Giving those adults who have sexual feelings about those children the strongest possible rebuke seems like a rational response, especially from the child's parents.

Given the choice of having a pedophile never being born in the first place, or having struggle with the decision of whether he wants to have sex with kids, I'm sorry...but I'd prefer he not exist.

And what of those who don't struggle? What of those who know it's wrong and will never, ever engage in the act? In the previous thread on this topic someone said exactly that, that he will never touch a child because his moral compass knows better. He said he was simply attracted to children like most men/women are attracted to other men/women, and that doesn't make them rapists.

Should this person not receive help if they so choose?

 

[Moff]

Given the choice of having a pedophile never being born in the first place, or having him struggle with the decision of whether he wants to have sex with kids, I'm sorry...but I'd prefer he not exist.

I'm sure many pedophiles feel the same.
sadly, that's not how society works, we need to deal with unpleasant things, they don't cease to exist. so what do you think is the best way to deal with an outed pedophile who hasnt commited a crime, yet?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

It is an avoidable consequence of living in society that a person will gain access to children.

Giving those adults who have sexual feelings about those children the strongest possible rebuke seems like a rational response, especially from the child's parents.

Given the choice of having a pedophile never being born in the first place, or having him struggle with the decision of whether he wants to have sex with kids, I'm sorry...but I'd prefer he not exist.

Kind of veering back into eugenics, which is another discussion entirely. You could throw down syndrome and other debilitating disorders in there if you want. My cousin who I love dearly has Cerebral Palsy, so I'd still probably disagree, but that's kind of off-topic.

 

[Speevy]

...and this matters because?

They do exist. So you already lost that battle.

Well, I stop short of saying they should die,because they already seem to be on everyone's hit list.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Homosexuals have every right to happiness because they want the same rights straight couples enjoy, and they want to sleep with whatever consenting adult they desire. Their fight is a righteous one, which is why all but a handful of states have legalized gay marriage.

Children are not by definition consenting adults. Wanting to sleep with them is inherently wrong. No one deserves the right to to this.

Absolutely correct.

But pedophiles still exist.

 

[Speevy]

Kind of veering back into eugenics, which is another discussion entirely. You could throw down syndrome and other debilitating disorders in there if you want. My cousin who I love dearly has Cerebral Palsy, so I'd still probably disagree, but that's kind of off-topic.

I have worked with children with Down's syndrome, and you should never, ever talk about pedophiles in the same discussion.

 

[Astral Dog]

Its not what we prefer, but how we handle it, demonizing its not always going to work , not either ignoring the issue , there should just be more professionals willing to offer help to those that seek it, as children abuse is never going to dissapear, but could help to have fewer cases of it.

That would not solve the problem, but may offer help and would be the more "human" solution possible.

 

[Speevy]

I'm sure many pedophiles feel the same.
sadly, that's not how society works, we need to deal with unpleasant things, they don't cease to exist. so what do you think is the best way to deal with an outed pedophile who hasnt commited a crime, yet?

I would first redefine what he is so he doesn't get branded a pedophile.

These matters are probably best handled in private by sensitive professionals.

The end results though, as I said before, is probably still shame and self-hatred.

 

[Ferrio]

If society demonizes them before they've even done anything, it really doesn't give them much incentive not to act on it. We should be supportive of the ones that don't, so the ones that do actually feel like they're being punished.

 

[Frankensteiner]

You know his friend killed himself because people kept demonizing him and that we have people cheerleading his decision to kill himself in this thread right.

I have gone through a lot of mental illness... I don't think demonization is accepted as a good solution by any therapists (and I've talked to a good many great ones) to any problems. It doesn't follow that pedophilia would be the one area that does benefit from demonization.

It sucks that his friend killed himself. But it's more him not being able to deal with it. So how is not demonizing going to help in the area that matters? You know, kids getting molested and all?

Fixed for you.

What kind of delusion.... thinking that being a jackass to people makes them less likely to act on their urges.

How about you post something instead of just throwing shots?

 

[GameGuru59]

I swear to God GAF...

Homosexuals have every right to happiness because they want the same rights straight couples enjoy, and they want to sleep with whatever consenting adult they desire. Their fight is a righteous one, which is why all but a handful of states have legalized gay marriage.

Children are not by definition consenting adults. Wanting to sleep with them is inherently wrong. No one deserves the right to to this.

The point is the demonization. People in Uganda would rather not have gay people exist, which is exactly what you want for pedophiles. It's true that the fulfillment of the latter's desires result in a crime, but your opinion is similar to people in Uganda's because your solution is one which wishes that the people in question not exist at all.

Not this shit again. There is absolutely no comparison between being gay and being a pedophile.

See above.

Yes and no. There should be a balance betweeen demonizing and normalizing. When something is demonized too much, it drives people into a corner, which is when they're most likely to act. This is something largely-accepted, not an outlandish claim about human psychology.

lol, this is the exact argument I made in that thread about racists... but that's off topic...

 

[ModBot]

Let us assure all of you of two things.

One: NeoGAF is staunchly opposed to sexual abuse of all kinds. We are against rape. We are against the use of manipulative and dishonest mechanisms to get sex under false pretenses. We are absolutely against child abuse of any and all kinds. Posters who support or defend these things are not welcome in our community and we do not take a kind eye to posts that even bend towards that direction. These things are wrong, point blank, and we fervently reject you if you feel otherwise.

Two: none of this makes monstrous and abhorrent behavior towards any group of people remotely acceptable. If you want to participate in NeoGAF and post in the OT about real-world issues instead of just shooting the shit about videogames, you need to be capable of a basic, minimum level of moral reasoning, and able to discuss it as if you understand what is actually being discussed. Our community values are not in support of mindless bloodthirst or extreme vengeance; we expect you to be able to think like an adult about proportionate action. We really shouldn't have to explain this, but telling someone you're glad their friend killed himself is completely fucked up. Saying that one of these people isn't even a human being is completely fucked up. On this issue, probably more than any other, there is tons of room to take a harsh position and argue in favor of harsh and unforgiving actions while staying within the boundaries of acceptable discussion -- but that requires you to actually demonstrate basic understanding of the discussion and not say hideous, monstrous things.

It's very possible that you, collectively, are not capable of having a reasonable conversation about this and we'll definitely be talking about whether future discussions that even touch on this issue will be allowed. But any time you weigh in on any discussion, whether or not it's a topic that might wind up locked an hour later, take the time to understand what's actually being discussed, and post like a reasonable, moral human being.