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Opinion Drama The persecution complex of Japanese games by some of it's fans.

Oct 2, 2019
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I've been seeing some conflicting information about that.

Playstation official blog is saying the P5 DLC is free for use in Royal.

https://blog.us.playstation.com/2019/12/03/persona-5-royal-takes-your-heart-on-march-31-2020/
"Digital pre-orders will come with an original Persona 5 Royal theme as a bonus and all the original Persona 5 DLC will be free for all Persona 5 Royal players."
Nice if true, but not exactly my point for binging it up, Atlus DLC practices is one of the worst, when P5 came out stuff like alt costumes with alt BGM was 5$ a piece!
Edit: it's actually 6.99!
Fix your thread title; you spelled its wrong.
Nice catch, alas i don't know how to fix it.
 
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Dec 22, 2019
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I think there is alot of fallacies in this argument I will also say as someone who has played alot of both regions games that the fall that western games are having is much worst than anything that we have seen on the japan side.

" At least the Japanese still make games not movies!"
- I think your confusing a cutscene heavy game with limited gameplay to games that have a general long run time. MGS games have tons of cutscenses but there is always rewarding gameplay to break them up same with yakuza, when has japan produced something like until dawn or the order 1886 almost never or very rarely. Even in jrpgs there is still tons of gameplay between the story sections and downtimes but there are countless western games that are literally walk, long hallway, long cutscene, walk and chat, cutscene, shootout for 5 mins, and another walking scene.

" Japan doesn't fill it's games with loot boxes and other a shady practices"
-In there full price games they dont and even in games that they do like there mobile games like Fate or granblue they are way more generious then the west counter parts look no further than blops 3,4,F76,TLOU MP,UC4 MP,Anthem,MK11. Barely any free content most of those games are starved of content all of it is either locked behind a $5.99 price tag for a single color or we have full on guns in a $60 game locked behind a built in monetary system to cheat you out of your money.

" No game company in Japan is worse than EA or Ubisoft"
- Most arent EA and ubisoft are notoriously know to kill any sort of creativity or made to make games for a quick buck with no consideration for its fanbase or existing fans, Yea instead of making a new command and conquer lets make a phone game no one asked for. Lets take great studios like criterion and visural games and have them work on our garbage Star wars battlefront game to create multiplayer modes that no one would play genius. O remember Assassins creed and how the games were centered around stealth yea lets scrap that and turn them in B- wrpgs with terrible animations and xp that progresses at a snails pace to drive up microtransations. Square and capcom have done way more good things ("DMC4,DMC5,Bravley default, Octopath,FF14,NIER 1 and 2, Dragons quest coming state side,Monster hunter world and Generations XX) past and present then EA or ubisoft combined.

"" Censorship is killing Japanese games! "
-You think japan is going to continue making games for a system that is going to hurt creative freedom in the long run. I mean we have had numerous Japanese games no even leave japan because the Devs and the artist refused to change or alter the original works Japan greatly cares about creativity in almost everything they do. Or if they do come state side there heavily altered and then massively hated which is funny because the audience that pushes for the censorship is the same audience that wouldn't buy the game in the 1st place.

" The west doesn't care about Japanese games because their don't make FPS/TPS movie games with shiny graphics!"
-This is 100% accurate most gamers in the west are very shallow why because any game that takes any sort of skill or leaning cureve or has any sort of inconvenience gets heavily ignored or scrutinized look at the Fighting game. Go back and watch ign play Tekken 6 or any anime fighter there trash but those games are made to be played over long periods of time there not just pick up and play games. But anything that encourages anything like that people hate on people over in the west care more about Shinny graphics and story telling then having a game with any depth look at God war 2018 that game is mechanically shallow compared to ninja gaiden black and DMC3 games that came out in 2005. Your telling me that the west with all this talent and technology that you cant make a game on par with with a hack n slash game from 2005. Same thing goes for TPS games even though japan doesnt make alot of them games like RE4 and Vanquish still run circles around alot of the western ones maxpayne 3 and Dead space 1 and 2 are some of the only few that get anywhere near those games.

"Etc, you see stuff like this all over gaming boards and forums, Neogaf is no exception.
To study this complex we need to go back to 2008-09.
The Xbox 360 is king and Call of Duty Modern Warfare is smashing the sales charts."
-Yea because of casuals and the fact that you dont even need to be good at cod to play it you iv meet tons of people who non gamers play cod because you can pick up and play it without any skill or brain power.

"American and western games are dominating the conversation, nobody talked about JRPGs anymore now everything is TESIV: Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Mass Effect, Metal Gear Solid came and won some GOTYs but it wasn't really seen as a big or in the same league as Gears of War or Uncharted 2, everyone mocked it's long cutscenes, dialogue and that's it's 5 hours of gameplay with 5 hours of cutscenes. "
-Yea because those were the games big publications were pushing in the early to late 2000s you had to go forum diving on anime forums or such to find out about some of those games because the big publications ignored them on purpase. Its not different than it is now.

"Around this time people on gaming boards started to get annoyed with to these attacks on beloved Japanese franchises and a growing sentiment started growing around this culture of every Japanese game is good but the western gaming media outlets just keep shooting them down."
-Japanese games have always gotten critisited in fact I would go into say thing that the fan base that enjoys Japanese games are the ones with have the deepest critiques. The western gaming media has always had I bias there is no reason why games like YS7 and Persona Q2 should be getting ignored with little to no coverage on ign or gamespot. There is no reason why games like Ace combat 7, Judgement, Atlier ryza, Bloodstain, Catherine full body and Tales of Vesperia Definitive edition should of been absent from the 2019 Game awards. There is no reason why I should have to visit mutiple websites so I can get the run down on which confirmed japanese games are coming out next year when these same websites will have games like GTA6 which is 100% unlikely to be announced or come out next year listed. I dont need to talk about how in the same breathe we had people complying about DMC5 and sekiro for being to hard. When these people could step on there own foot faster and try to convince people that a broken game like PUBG is worth playing.

The take away here is that the western video game industry is creatively and mechanically bankrupt. The west now makes games with Graphics and story telling and lets everything else fall to the way side. Half of the reason why people enjoy japanese games so much is because most of them are will to take risk and peruse new gameplay ventures that havent been done. I also very much appreciate how japan uses a good artstyle and color pallet for most of there games most games in the west look like there in grey scale 90% GTA4 and FC2 look atrocious. japan still keeps most of its game genres alive cant say to much for the west when all we get is either 30fps walking sim, open world game, Battke royal, and FPS. We still have brain dead A.i in games and not excuse about how the current systems are weak is going to fix that when games like Fear in 2005 and Black could do interesting things there no way that couldnt be done now. Look no closer than days gone gameplay is lacking A.i sucks but lets foucus all of our energy on close up camera shots, story sections and graphics.
 

cireza

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I don't see any tendency here, be it for or against Japanese games. There were great Japanese games 20, 10 or 5 years ago, and still nowadays. Nothing is different.

A good game is a good game, and a bad game is a bad game. I don't see anyone stopping me from saying and explaining why I think BotW or the recent From Software games are far from great. And FF VII will probably be pretty bad by my standards. As long as you actually have reasons and explain why, there is no problem at all. And it was exactly the same back then, you could explain how some Japanese games were awesome and was no problem at all. I don't see any kind of "mind police" applied to Japanese games.

And yes, Idea Factory games might suck. Maybe play some good J-RPGs instead ?

Nah, the genre is completely coincidental.
JRPGs simply tend to perfectly capture and accentuate the essence of everything wrong with Japanese games.

They treat the player like a complete moron and have almost zero respect for players time.
This is basically the pattern in most Japanese games, but in JRPGs it's just way more pronounced.

Do JRPGs have to suck? No, but for some fucking inexplicable reason Japanese devs tend to stick to shitty tropes and shitty gameplay mechanics as if their life depended on it.

It's as if they are scared shitless to make a game which requires more than 10 braincells to play or does something new.
Maybe try to play the good ones ?
 
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Al3x1s

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How to prove J game fans have a persecution complex? Create a thread just to put the games they like down, lulz. Great strategy dude. I love w games and J games and generally just good games that appeal to me regardless of what was "in" or "hot" or "cool" to say at any given time even by Japanese devs like Inafune (who incidentally hasn't made anything on the level of Resident Evil, old or new, since leaving), to me they never lost their appeal. Pointing out genre x or franchise y or game z you don't like as all representative of the region's shortcomings is like someone else putting down western games as just Call of Duty or whatever he doesn't like in turn when there's something for every taste, from fps to rpg to adventure to whatever. Same goes for Japanese games, there's anything from AAA hollywood blockbuster action adventures to quirky indie things you've never heard of, each potentially awesome in its own right. There are a couple things one does better than the other only because few companies have overlap in that kind of game. Ie, no western AAA dev has made a Devil May Cry like and therefor when you compare melee combat games of the sort they tend to appear worse because they don't even focus on melee combat for the most part for example. The same way Japanese rpgs dont' tend to do the choice & consequence non linear thing much (though you have quirky takes on that like SaGa Scarlet Grace that offer this it's not the same just as God of War, old or new, never was meant to be like DMC or Bayonetta and such). Just play and enjoy what you like and don't pretend it's better than what someone else enjoys and likes. Trying to present sales as an argument is dumb too, especially when most people doing it probably don't think of Wii (which btw sold both hardware and software by the truckload, on par with PS1's near one billion copies of games sold and an attach rate rivaling any great system) as the best console ever or anything of the sort yet present sales as an argument when it suits them only. Idiots. It's especially weird to say this now though, when great Japanese games have once again been coming strong for the past generation or two, from the likes of the Souls games (which wasn't even AAA) to the latest Resident Evil and DMC sequels. Final Fantasy also arguably recovered from its XIII phase, even if XV isn't to my liking. Consider XIV is among the top MMORPGs ever, of the few that get away with charging a subscription, in a genre otherwise dominated by the west ever since Everquest and World of Warcraft (at least in the west, obviously Korean or others reign in regions).
 
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SLoWMoTIoN

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I prefer japanese games (as well as eastern european) as they havent completely swallowed the progressive corporate trends of clown world inc. They certainly are pressured by the west and companies like sony have relinquished control to western prog soypackers. But overall their themes and narratives are free of most of the ideas that have emerged from western elite, coastal, and uni bubbles in the last 10 years.

I find generally their game mechanics and art design to be on a elevated plane as well. Also, i dislike the trends of walking sims, pretentious virtue signaling stories, bland character designs (strong wymen is the new bald space marine), openworlds and gaas, all of which remain the exception, not the rule in eastern development.
While I agree with everything here Japanese games do plenty of "stronk women" themselves and they do it better than the west without losing their femininity.
 
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RealGassy

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Maybe try to play the good ones ?
There are good JRPG?

I get it, there's like 2-3 JRPGs which aren't complete garbage. Was it Persona 5? XC2 and that one another game ... I'm blanking out here.

People love Tales of Vesperia, I don't get it.
There's two explanations for it:
1) No frame of reference.
2) Some people just enjoy garbage aimed at the lowest common denominator. Nothing wrong with that I guess.

When FFX came out it sold millions of millions of copies, and got amazing reviews.
To me it made absolutely no sense, because the game was so objectively shit and there were many an order of magnitude better games coming out on PC at the time.
And the only explanation is that they didn't have a PC and were never exposed to those games.

To be fair, I haven't played Tales of Vesperia, maybe it's that THIRD good JRPG.

Last time I bought a JRPG which was allegedly "amazing", I ended up with a game which had dialogue like this:


Truly amazing. This game has also sold millions of copies (facepalm).
 
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Danjin44

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There are good JRPG?

I get it, there's like 2-3 JRPGs which aren't complete garbage. Was it Persona 5? XC2 and that one another game ... I'm blanking out here.


There's two explanations for it:
1) No frame of reference.
2) Some people just enjoy garbage aimed at the lowest common denominator. Nothing wrong with that I guess.

When FFX came out it sold millions of millions of copies, and got amazing reviews.
To me it made absolutely no sense, because the game was so objectively shit and there were many an order of magnitude better games coming out on PC at the time.
And the only explanation is that they didn't have a PC and were never exposed to those games.

To be fair, I haven't played Tales of Vesperia, maybe it's that THIRD good JRPG.

Last time I bought a JRPG which was allegedly "amazing", I ended up with a game which had dialogue like this:


Truly amazing. This game has also sold millions of copies (facepalm).
Just because you personally don't like JRPG it doesn't make it true for everybody else and I'm sorry you didn't enjoy DQXI but other people did, I didn't like Witcher 3 but it doesn't make it bad game just because I personally didn't like it.
 

RealGassy

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Just because you personally don't like JRPG it doesn't make it true for everybody else and I'm sorry you didn't enjoy DQXI but other people did, I didn't like Witcher 3 but it doesn't make it bad game just because I personally didn't like it.
I know there are genres of videogames that are not for me (ie. sports simulation games), but JRPGs are not one of them.

JRPGs are objectively shit (outside of those 2-3 games that are not).
If that DQXI dialog qualifies as "good" to you and you enjoy that shit, more power to you.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying shitty writting, shitty dialogue, cliched character designs or enjoying combat that takes 10 braincells and a pulse.
It doesn't make it "good" though by any objective measure.
 
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lyan

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There are good JRPG?

I get it, there's like 2-3 JRPGs which aren't complete garbage. Was it Persona 5? XC2 and that one another game ... I'm blanking out here.


There's two explanations for it:
1) No frame of reference.
2) Some people just enjoy garbage aimed at the lowest common denominator. Nothing wrong with that I guess.

When FFX came out it sold millions of millions of copies, and got amazing reviews.
To me it made absolutely no sense, because the game was so objectively shit and there were many an order of magnitude better games coming out on PC at the time.
And the only explanation is that they didn't have a PC and were never exposed to those games.

To be fair, I haven't played Tales of Vesperia, maybe it's that THIRD good JRPG.

Last time I bought a JRPG which was allegedly "amazing", I ended up with a game which had dialogue like this:


Truly amazing. This game has also sold millions of copies (facepalm).
People like different things, I personally find most shooters (other than Counter Strike 1.6 for nostalgic reasons) no more fun than timing myself to click random desktop icons.
 
Oct 2, 2019
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Sigh, Al3x1s Al3x1s it seems you didn't read my many replies in this thread it seems, I've said time and again what my problem was.

You're under the impression i hate Yakuza or MGS for example, i don't but as a fan of these games i'm done with them, they didn't improve or get better with each game or change their design flaws or fix their short coming, Yakuza was stagnating long before the controversial Yakuza like a dragon new combat system got announced, MGS4 is waste potential with cringe inducing cutscenes and a gameplay that wasn't given enough run time, all because stupid fans want every single interesting thing that was mentioned in MGS 1-3 had to be explained, from the patriots and Ocelot's possesion by Liquid to every supporting character in 3, 4 was an abomination and 1st on my list of the most overrated games ever, even 5 with it's massive problems is a way more fun game than 4 ever was, MGS should've ended with 3 like Kojima wanted.

Yakuza's Kazuma Kiryu had no reason to be any game after 3, his story was done, 4 didn't need him and it should've focused more on Akiyama and the rest, but that's not where the series problems ends, the combat is still shallow and QTE heavy, even with multiable styles it still no where near engaging or strategic as it wants to be, and didn't get rid of it's random encounter type combat sections until 6 which I've yet to play because i'm still stuck on chapter 2 of Y5 which i'm not going back to any time soon, Yakuza's new found popularity was due to memes and it being a virtual tourist attraction to 80's Japan with a melodramatic story and you can play some old SEGA arcade games.
I detest the sight of Kamoroucho after 7 games in the same place with barely any change.
 
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RealGassy

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People like different things, I personally find most shooters (other than Counter Strike 1.6 for nostalgic reasons) no more fun than timing myself to click random desktop icons.
There's an important distinction between "enjoying" something and that thing being "good" by any objective measure.
I kinda enjoyed playing through Pokemon Sword, but I'm not going to call it a "good" game just because I enjoyed it (partially due to nostalgia).

The game has objectively retardedly simple combat, cliched story, zero difficutly and mechanics which haven't changed for 20 years,
it treats the players like idiots and doesn't respect their time.

Obviously the game could be better in so many ways.
Same with JRPGs, there's no unwritten rule which says that all JRPGs have to be shit, but they somehow end up being that way for whatever reason.
I suspect that Japanese devs design JRPGs as if their audience has 10 braincells or something.
 
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Danjin44

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There's an important distinction between "enjoying" something and that thing being "good" by any objective measure.
I kinda enjoyed playing through Pokemon Sword, but I'm not going to call it a "good" game just because I enjoyed it (partially due to nostalgia).

The game has objectively retardedly simple combat, cliched story, zero difficutly and mechanics which haven't changed for 20 years,
it treats the players like idiots and doesn't respect their time.

Obviously the game could be better in so many ways.
Same with JRPGs, there's no unwritten rule which says that all JRPGs have to be shit, but they somehow end up being that way for whatever reason.
I suspect that Japanese devs design JRPGs as if their audience has 10 braincells or something.
I guess by your logic we can consider Witcher 3 “objectively” bad game because I find the combat absolutely terrible.
 

RealGassy

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I guess by your logic we can consider Witcher 3 “objectively” bad game because I find the combat absolutely terrible.
I think it's widely recognized that combat in Witcher 3 isn't very good.
The question is whether the other good elements of the game (whatever those might be) make up for it.
 

lyan

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There's an important distinction between "enjoying" something and that thing being "good" by any objective measure.
I kinda enjoyed playing through Pokemon Sword, but I'm not going to call it a "good" game just because I enjoyed it (partially due to nostalgia).

The game has objectively retardedly simple combat, cliched story, zero difficutly and mechanics which haven't changed for 20 years,
it treats the players like idiots and doesn't respect their time.

Obviously the game could be better in so many ways.
Same with JRPGs, there's no unwritten rule which says that all JRPGs have to be shit, but they somehow end up being that way for whatever reason.
I suspect that Japanese devs design JRPGs as if their audience has 10 braincells or something.
I can swap JRPG in your reply with shooters and it still makes perfect sense to me.
 
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Danjin44

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I can swap JRPG in your reply with shooters and it still makes perfect sense to me.
I think he has hard time understanding each people have different taste, if he doesn't like something then others shouldn’t like it either and if they do then they must have terrible taste.

I guess that’s his logic.
 

anthraticus

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Give me cRPGs over the dumbed down AAAwesomeAkshun wRPGs and the childish jRPG anime/cringe.
 
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petran79

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When FFX came out it sold millions of millions of copies, and got amazing reviews.
To me it made absolutely no sense, because the game was so objectively shit and there were many an order of magnitude better games coming out on PC at the time.
And the only explanation is that they didn't have a PC and were never exposed to those games.

To be fair, I haven't played Tales of Vesperia, maybe it's that THIRD good JRPG.

One of the best JRPGs I played, though not turn-based, was Ys Origin, which not surprisingly was first developed for Windows and only much later ported to PS4. Xanadu Next is also another Japanese gem on PC
 

Hawks Eclipse

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Last time I bought a JRPG which was allegedly "amazing", I ended up with a game which had dialogue like this:


Truly amazing. This game has also sold millions of copies (facepalm).

Are you saying the entirety of the dialogue in that video is bad or are you specifically referring to the Watcher's dialogue?
 

RealGassy

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I can swap JRPG in your reply with shooters and it still makes perfect sense to me.
I get that JRPG apologists have to cop out and deflect, because they are unable to refute the argument that JRPGs overwhelmingly tend to be objectively shit.

I think he has hard time understanding each people have different taste, if he doesn't like something then others shouldn’t like it either and if they do then they must have terrible taste.

I guess that’s his logic.
I think you have reading comprehension issues.
I acknowledge that some people like sports simulation games or racing sims, I don't, they are not my thing. I'm not calling those games shit because of it.
Some people like VN or bullet-hell games, that's an acquired taste and distinctly Japanese, they obviously have a thing going for them.

And then there's a sizable population of people that enjoy garbage aimed at the lowest common denominator.
That's an acquired taste, they enjoy shit. There's nothing wrong with that.

Outside of those 2-3-4 good JRPGs (Persona 5, XC2 and whatever), JRPGs are constantly failing to excel at things they are supposed to be good at.
They are literally the amalgamation of all the worst aspects of Japanese games.

I get it, some dude actually gets off on combat that takes 10 braincells and enjoys a story which is generic and creatively bankrupt, and so on. Good for him.

I ocassionally enjoy games that are ... not very good, are deeply flawed or braindead (ie. pokemon).
It's hard to cope and admit that you like a little bit of shit now and then. I get that.
 

RealGassy

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Are you saying the entirety of the dialogue in that video is bad or are you specifically referring to the Watcher's dialogue?
Of course, the Watcher's dialogue stands out in particular, but there is a lot of egregious dialogue like that in the game.
Entirety of story, narrative and dialogue in the game is generic, boring and 100% predictable from miles away.
The story is so exceptionally boring that it's so tempting to skip all the cutscenes.

I mean the story and adventure is supposed to be atleast ONE of the things JRPGs are good at. But nope, failing hard even at that.

There's only a few small tidbits in the game which are surprising and not boring for a change.
Such as Sylvando doing the pride parade with his boyz. Didn't see that coming for sure.
 
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Danjin44

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I get that JRPG apologists have to cop out and deflect, because they are unable to refute the argument that JRPGs overwhelmingly tend to be objectively shit.


I think you have reading comprehension issues.
I acknowledge that some people like sports simulation games or racing sims, I don't, they are not my thing. I'm not calling those games shit because of it.
Some people like VN or bullet-hell games, that's an acquired taste and distinctly Japanese, they obviously have a thing going for them.

And then there's a sizable population of people that enjoy garbage aimed at the lowest common denominator.
That's an acquired taste, they enjoy shit. There's nothing wrong with that.

Outside of those 2-3-4 good JRPGs (Persona 5, XC2 and whatever), JRPGs are constantly failing to excel at things they are supposed to be good at.
They are literally the amalgamation of all the worst aspects of Japanese games.

I get it, some dude actually gets off on combat that takes 10 braincells and enjoys a story which is generic and creatively bankrupt, and so on. Good for him.

I ocassionally enjoy games that are ... not very good, are deeply flawed or braindead (ie. pokemon).
It's hard to cope and admit that you like a little bit of shit now and then. I get that.
Again, you personally might not like them and consider it “shit” it doesn’t mean thats gonna be true for everybody else, I personally consider 90% of WRPG are “shit” but there are who enjoy them. It’s all subjective at end of the day, what I mostly get from your posts is you think your opinion is above from everybody else.
 
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Lionel Richie

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So I've been meaning to write about this topic for quite some time and i feel it's something worth discussing.
" At least the Japanese still make games not movies!"
" Japan doesn't fill it's games with loot boxes and other ahady practices"
" No game company in Japan is worse than EA or Ubisoft"
" Censorship is killing Japanese games! "
" The west doesn't care about Japanese games because their don't make FPS/TPS movie games with shiny graphics!"

Man I must have gone off the deep end because I think literally all of the above are correct.
 

Hawks Eclipse

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Of course, the Watcher's dialogue stands out in particular, but there is a lot of egregious dialogue like that in the game.
Entirety of story, narrative and dialogue in the game is generic, boring and 100% predictable from miles away.
The story is so exceptionally boring that it's so tempting to skip all the cutscenes.

I mean the story and adventure is supposed to be atleast ONE of the things JRPGs are good at. But nope, failing hard even at that.

There's only a few small tidbits in the game which are surprising and not boring for a change.
Such as Sylvando doing the pride parade with his boyz. Didn't see that coming for sure.

Hmm, I'm not very particular when it comes to dialogue like that, you could probably chalk that up to me having lower standards for dialogue, though I can recognize that games like Witcher 3 and Fallout NV have some really tasty dialogue.

Recently started playing DQXIS and my impression is that the localisation team did an incredible job.

Eg. Having all of the Hotto residents speak in haikus is quite a treat and I find that most of the lines capture the mannerisms of each NPC well, even if a fair number of those characters are tropey.

I basically treat it like a nice Saturday morning cartoonish adventure that I can play through, it's the gaming version of luxurious comfort food.

Can't say much else because I'm still very early in the game, don't worry about spoilers btw, I'm fairly numb to that.

Edit: Forgot to elaborate a bit more on how I felt about the Watcher. I don't think his dialogue is egregious; I get what the localisation (and probably the Japanese original) was going for. The rest of what I saw up to the halfway point was fairly standard.
 
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lyan

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I get that JRPG apologists have to cop out and deflect, because they are unable to refute the argument that JRPGs overwhelmingly tend to be objectively shit.
I'm just using your argument to show that you actually think shooters are objectively shit. I myself simply dislike them. As for what others subjectively think is objective I don't really care.
 

theclaw135

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Games have a very simple quality scale. The more a game tries to imitate the works of the immortal JRR Tolkien, the worse it is.
 

Hawks Eclipse

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So I've been meaning to write about this topic for quite some time and i feel it's something worth discussing.
So what are your thoughts on this matter? Do you see it as a problem or don't even think it's worth mentioning?

We are barely a ripple in the pond of the developers' minds. While I know it's possible for a fanbase to get some things tweaked, generally the core design will remain unchanged unless the market itself sways them; we people who discuss these things here are a tiny portion of that market.

However, I do think that it is a problem when it comes to online discussion and I don't think it's a persecution complex; everyone just has their own bias and background that shapes their tastes.

Anyway, rather than talk too much about that stuff, I'll say that both the East and West have very interesting things to offer in gaming.

At times they draw inspiration from each other in ways that benefit us gamers and sometimes they don't.

Japanese devs and Western devs probably have more respect for each other than some of the online warriors have for them.
 
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Geki-D

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when has japan produced something like until dawn or the order 1886 almost never or very rarely
???
In 2006 70% of Japanese games on PC were VNs. No idea what the ratio is now, but I think it's safe to assume that most of what comes out of Japan are visual novels. So literal static images with text to read where the "gameplay" consists of press X to scroll.

Take this for example:

From the moment this side quest starts at 3 mins, in the nearly 30min clip, there are (I literally counted) 10m02 of actual gameplay (and I'm being overly generous and counting a long conversation with the shopkeep, read: more scrolling text, as "gameplay", and the guy pisses around quite a bit), the rest is fmv, scrolling text and some loading. Pretty much every Yakuza game is like this. You spend most of the game watching cutscenes and reading rather than playing, unless you just mess around but in that case you could do that in any game and say they all have hundreds of hours of gameplay, western included.

Now I don't mind this, I like the Yakuza games but don't come here and say that Japanese games are all gameplay focused and western games aren't. Japanese games are the king of "no gameplay", always have been, always will be.
 

RealGassy

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Again, you personally might not like them and consider it “shit” it doesn’t mean thats gonna be true for everybody else, I personally consider 90% of WRPG are “shit” but there are who enjoy them. It’s all subjective at end of the day, what I mostly get from your posts is you think your opinion is above from everybody else.
I take issue with the statement that everything is subjective.

For example, while it's hard to determine exactly how many braincells does it take to progress in a JRPG game X,
you can take 1000 literal retards and have them play the game and determine just how many will be able to get through it, and how long will that take.

If by far most of the retards can progress through the game, I think it's fair to say that the game is empirically and OBJECTIVELY "retard friendly".
And that's NOT an opinion.

Heck, Nintendo even put a literal retard in their Switch promotional videos to show how their games are retard friendly.

Again, not necessarily a bad thing, but if you're not a retard, you probably want to play something a little bit more demanding and intellectually stimulating.

Activities that humans have evolved to find engaging and fun are NOT arbitrary either. (i.e. seeking novelty, challenge, competition, story telling, etc)
You'd be surprised how many of these qualities can be measured in one way or another.

I get that if you're a mentally and physically exhaused nurse after an 16 hour shift, or a burned out 30year old japanese salaryman who wants to reverse his birth,
something uninspired, safe, straight-forward, ordinary, unsurprising and brainless like Dragon Quest XI might just be your thing.
But to most other people that's what a "shit" game is. I mean this is not a forum for soccermoms who really happen to enjoy match-3 games or something.

That whole "nothing is true, everything is subjective" is defeatist coping bullshit which shuts down any kind of criticism or discussion to be had.
 
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cireza

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If you weren't so insecure about what you like, maybe you'd name them (along with a solid case for why they are soo great)
I don't feel the need to come and explain everyone around me how my personal tastes should be considered an absolute truth. You look much more insecure than me here. You don't like J-RPGs, that's pretty clear. You can turn it all the ways you want, there is diversity in the genre, you simply choose to be blind to it because it does not go in the direction of your narrative.

Every Japanese RPG is not riddled with stupid stuff as you would like us to believe so. And this has been the case since the very beginning of the genre.

So sure, I can list games. Games that defined a genre people still love and play nowadays.

How about going back to 1989 with Phantasy Star II ? A game that told a mature story in a futuristic world, with believable characters that were definitely not over powered. A world where humankind slowly became lazy and dependent of the network and computers managing their environment.

Fast forward to 1995 with Chrono Trigger then. Another game with strong varied characters, each having their own story. A great story of time travel and of the consequences of your choices throughout the ages.

How about 1997 with Shining Force III now ? A complex story of political and religious warfare, where an obscure sect decides to trigger a conflict between the two great forces and exploit it to reach their personal goals. Extremely well written and mature, Shining Force III is a fantastic game with tons of characters whose destinies are related in the long term.

Xbox 360 and Lost Odyssey. The story of immortal people that lost their memories and discover gradually who they are and how they are related. This is another game targeted at a mature audience, with quality store-telling and even short novels that are incredibly well written.

Xbox One and Final Fantasy XV. A simple premise of good vs evil, but a powerful narration and deep characters. You don't get stupid stuff and absurd conversations in this game. This is a pilgrimage that will end with sacrifices, and you know it and understand it from the beginning. And the characters bear this burden, even if they tend to have some lighter moments along the way. And the main villain is also perfect. Not the stereotype of the guy who wants to conquer the world, but rather a person that has been cursed and seems like he wants to end this farce and finally find peace, somehow.

And then we could talk about Nier Automata, another Japanese RPG. Even Code Vein, released recently, offered some great surprises in terms of developing its story, characters and NPCs. Or Catherine, another fantastic story-driven Japanese game. And why not talk about some Visual Novels too ? They are Japanese games, story driven, and many are beyond great, like Steins Gate or House in Fata Morgana. Same thing applies to animes. All animes out there are not shonens. There are masterpieces like Kara no Kyoukai waiting to be discovered.

I only covered in detail 5 games, but as someone playing J-RPGs since my childhood, I know the variety that the genre offers, and I strongly dislike the type of games you describe. However, I know that the genre is not composed of only what you describe, so I suggest you try playing this genre harder, or stop talking about it. There is nothing worse than someone talking about a topic without having a correct knowledge of it, and still pretending to claim the absolute truth about it.
 
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Al3x1s

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I dunno why you bothered, dude will just go "lol that game sux, so does that and that and that". That's all his (and others' here) arguments have been. Shit this, shit that, shit story, shit combat, as if that shit is any kind of actual argument, with a disingenuous "convince me otherwise" on top.
 
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down 2 orth

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We can all talk a lot of talk, but fortunately, when it all comes down to it, there's a market that decides what stays and what goes. That's why a lot of Japanese games make excellent money, and why tits and ass will always be welcome by a majority with open arms.
 

RealGassy

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There is nothing worse than someone talking about a topic without having a correct knowledge of it, and still pretending to claim the absolute truth about it.
From what I can tell, all the games you've listed exhibit most if not all deficiencies that I've listed numerous times in this thread.

I'm sure you're aware that nobody without rose-tinted nostalgia glasses is going to think that Phantasy Star II - outside of historical context of the time - is a great game or a great RPG.
However it does a good job at illustrating the core issue of JRPGs, they still to this day have more or less the same disregard for players time and barebones idiot-proof gameplay mechanics as a game from 1989.

Combat in Lost Oddsey (a game from 2007) is virtually indistinguishable from a SNES game from 1991.
This game still has RANDOM ENCOUNTERS, just like a game from 1989!
Same with Chrono Trigger, maybe great game for the time, but now? No way.

Sure, maybe the story in Lost Oddsey or any of those games is half-way decent (I can't tell that without playing). But then why not take out all the timewasting padding - brainless A button mashing bullshit, and just make a VN?
Would make most of these games miles better.

shit combat
Okay brainiac, are you telling me that combat in these games is challenging and takes more than one hand, 10 braincells and a pulse? Really? Are you really going to make that argument?
You either point to games where combat has at least SOME substance to it (ie. XC2 or something) Or you gotta concede the point and suck up and admit that combat in JRPGs tend to weight heavily on the retarded side of the spectrum.

Because the arguments so far have been "BUT I LIKE IT"(therefore there's no way it's shit) or deflection (but what about X).
 
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peter42O

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I heavily favor Western games simply because they tend to appeal and interest me more and thus, want to play and complete them. A game like The Witcher III is my game of the generation because of it's story, characters, narrative, quests, writing, world, atmosphere, immersion, visuals, voice acting and soundtrack. Gameplay and combat wise, it's the weakest aspect of the entire game but it's still better than most games and while player movement is clunky at worse and while I love the combat and fighting, the one handed bow is useless except for when underwater but the biggest issue is the "locked stance" that Geralt is in during combat. If CDPR eliminates this for when they develop The Witcher IV, I see the majority of issues gamers had with the combat being gone. Even with the combat being the weakest aspect, it's no worse than any Rockstar game which gets praised all the time and gets a free pass all the time. The difference being Rockstar is on their, what? 20th game or so? CDPR's The Witcher III was only their third game and a massive improvement over The Witcher 2 plus it went open world which is not easy to do.

For JRPG's, I played Setsuna and quit it halfway or so through, bought Lost Sphear and lasted maybe an hour because they're just boring and im not into the old SNES/PS One JRPG's anymore. In general, they're probably in the 7/10 good range but nothing special and the classics like Chrono Trigger simply crush them. The biggest issue with JRPG's I have and why skip nearly all of them is that despite being 3D third person, you always play as a silent protagonist which im so tired of. Everyone talks except who you play as. Makes no sense at all and completely kills the interaction between yourself and other characters throughout the game. This is the primary reason why I skipped Ys VII and DQ XI. Add in the turn based combat for DX XI being the secondary reason for that game.

But then, outside of JRPG's, I discovered Yakuza which is fucking great. Started with Zero and ended with Kiwami 2 mainly because 3/4/5 weren't "remade" so im not going from three updated "remakes" to just ports. Plus after Judgment, four games in two years has pretty much given me my fill of Yakuza. I will say that these games were great and enjoyable. The only other Japanese game that I have played and completed was Nier Automata and while a great 8.5/10 for me, it wasn't perfect and im not a massive fan of Platinum Games.

Overall, it comes down to what really appeals and interests you enough to where you want to play through the game. One thing is for sure though with me, I don't bash Japanese games or really any games for that matter because if im not interested in a game, I simply do what most should but don't - ignore it and move on to something else.

With that all said though, I am very hyped for Granblue Fantasy Relink because it seems to have a Japanese feel to it with the visuals, production and voice acting of a Western game. Watching the videos from the Granblue Festival show a few weeks ago definitely has me hyped for the game and im just hoping that the story and characters turn out to be great because while im not the biggest Platinum fan, im not worried or concerned about the overall gameplay and combat.
 
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???
In 2006 70% of Japanese games on PC were VNs. No idea what the ratio is now, but I think it's safe to assume that most of what comes out of Japan are visual novels. So literal static images with text to read where the "gameplay" consists of press X to scroll.

Take this for example:

From the moment this side quest starts at 3 mins, in the nearly 30min clip, there are (I literally counted) 10m02 of actual gameplay (and I'm being overly generous and counting a long conversation with the shopkeep, read: more scrolling text, as "gameplay", and the guy pisses around quite a bit), the rest is fmv, scrolling text and some loading. Pretty much every Yakuza game is like this. You spend most of the game watching cutscenes and reading rather than playing, unless you just mess around but in that case you could do that in any game and say they all have hundreds of hours of gameplay, western included.

Now I don't mind this, I like the Yakuza games but don't come here and say that Japanese games are all gameplay focused and western games aren't. Japanese games are the king of "no gameplay", always have been, always will be.

I was waiting for someone to pedal this excuse my original point still stands lets get that out of the way also my observation of the fall of western games is completely unbiased since I have played Japanese games and western equal since I stared gaming.
"In 2006 70% of Japanese games on PC were VNs."
-Way to narrow your argument down by 90% the majority of Japaneses games since the dawn of time were released on either Consoles or Arcade cabinets. Its also absurd that you choose the Date 2006 and decided to go with Japanese games released only on pc really? MGS3, SF3 alpha max, Tokoy xtream racer, Grandia 3, Drakengard 2, FF12, Tales of phantasia, Kingdom hearts 2 the list is plentyful of games that came from japan that were not VNs. Are you insenuating that VN games arent games if so thats a loosing argument because then your pretty much saying Point and click games arent games or puzzle games dont count since your just messing around in menus.

"No idea what the ratio is now, but I think it's safe to assume that most of what comes out of Japan are visual novels."
-You pretty much just killed your entire opening argument you just stated something that was not true then carry on saying yea ill just assume it is. I dont know how this is going to help your argument even if japan makes alot of VN games they still make other games from different genres. Thats hugely better then the west just because for example a Fate VN game does well does not mean square or atlus is going to turn Final fantasy or shin megami or persona into a VN just because. Over in the west Fortnight and Pubg is popular every dev make a clone of either one of those games and have it on my desk in the morning no questions who cares if the game runs or is fun as long as it can handle MTX were good.

"So literal static images with text to read where the "gameplay" consists of press X to scroll."
-Well some of them have Dialog choices and decisions that greatly effect the gameplay Dokio Dokio, Fate, Steins gate, dangarompa. We also have games that have game play spliced up with VN sections like Super robot wars, zanki zero, omega labyrinth, Senran kagura, sakura wars 1 and 2 ect so your press X to scroll is very misleading.

"From the moment this side quest starts at 3 mins, in the nearly 30min clip, there are (I literally counted) 10m02 of actual gameplay (and I'm being overly generous and counting a long conversation with the shopkeep, read: more scrolling text, as "gameplay", and the guy pisses around quite a bit), the rest is fmv, scrolling text and some loading. Pretty much every Yakuza game is like this. You spend most of the game watching cutscenes and reading rather than playing, unless you just mess around but in that case you could do that in any game and say they all have hundreds of hours of gameplay, western included."

-You used yakuza 6 which is fine but there is alot of context missing yakuza 6 takes places literally right after yakuza 5 yakuza 5 literally ends on a cliffhanger. Almost every opening in yakuza 0-6 + judgment starts slow you never just start the game and boom action and explosions it even takes awhile for yakuza 0 to get going. But there is so much missing that what your pedaling is literally fake news the yakuza games are set up like action jrpgs there are mini games ranging from arcade games to you driving people around in a taxi, mini bosses, main bosses, combat, Business ventures like what you would see in GTA, survival arenas, and side quest that base there missions around different NPCS and use them to push different gameplay features like the bouncer missions or the hostess clubs nothing is there just for window dressing or just to push a boring narrative like what you see in western games. For exmaple the market section in TLOU1 cant talk to anyone cant buy anything all you do is walk in a straight line and leave nothing there at all tied into anything game play related.

"Now I don't mind this, I like the Yakuza games but don't come here and say that Japanese games are all gameplay focused and western games aren't. "
Well in my main argument I explain that the west traded gameplay, fun and creative designs color pallets and new ideas a respect for all genere of games like RTS,Arena shooters,Racing games,Point and click, platformers, stealth games, Hack n slash games for graphics and hollywood story telling. I never said that western games have 0 gameplay I said that what they bring to the table as a whole is severely lacking. Especially with how much money they make and how much money they sink into games your telling me that it took you from cod mw2 2009 till now to finally semi fix Cod Your telling me that no dev over here could atleats match up to DMC1 or KH2 on the ps2. Unless you want to explain how japan with devs and publishers than range from the indie or A to AA or even AAA are able to make some out of this world games with modest budgets and have absolutely killer gameplay and unique artstyles and the west cant with budgets that exceed some of these gameplays by 10. I know why 1 mill movie camera for slow up shots Xtream photo realistic graphcics, Hollywood actors that eat up 70% of the game budgets, Super bowl train and time magazine ads > Gameplay, Fun, Color pallet that are varied and rich, Animations, No MTX or lootboxes, Worth while DLC, Far price tag, Modest budget, Finished game.
 

brokenduck

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I like Japanese’ characters and dungeon atmosphere designplus their soundtrack more and like western games’ open world more as world building. Thus games like Skyrim with mods on PC is the closest as I can get to tweak it into a game a really love playing. Hot and cute Japanese characters plus western open world is always the best
Combo for me.
Unfortunately there are so few AAA games like this for the current gen and make gaming pretty boring for me. I hope next gen is better with MS back to making open world rpgs with strong pc support
 
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Barnabot

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I like weird games with a good gameplay and replayability while giving zero fucks for real world's current politics in terms of story.
 

Danjin44

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For me if it wasn't for Japanese games I would have quit gaming long time ago. These days 90% of western developers mostly make open world rather than a proper level design with ugly ass character designs for sake of "realism" or "immersion". Without Japanese games, entire gaming would have been so god damn boring and lifeless.

People can call me "weeb" or whatever the fuck they want but I'm enjoying the hell out of gaming thanks Japanese games.
 
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cireza

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Combat in Lost Oddsey (a game from 2007) is virtually indistinguishable from a SNES game from 1991.
Combat in Lost Odyssey is among the very best in the genre, requiring thinking for every single fight, with a perfect balance in terms of encounter rate and experience gain that avoids grinding. This is one of the most refined games in the genre. Having turn-based battles and random encounters has absolutely no negative impact on the quality of a game.

I'm sure you're aware that nobody without rose-tinted nostalgia glasses is going to think that Phantasy Star II - outside of historical context of the time - is a great game or a great RPG.
Probably one the best RPGs created period. The thought process in Phantasy Star II is not so much about each individual battle, but more about how you prepare your expeditions in dungeons, which character you pick, how you equip them, and deciding when you need to retreat and come back later. It is also about the order in which you need to tackle the dungeons. This is actually great game-design, much better than many of the RPGs that followed and that were strictly linear.

Same with Chrono Trigger, maybe great game for the time, but now? No way.
No way what ? This game is still a master-piece to this day and can be replayed even today and be greatly enjoyable.

I can't tell that without playing
This sentence summarizes you the best.

I dunno why you bothered
Just felt like it.
 

Greedings

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I mean...there's a lot of stagnation in Japanese games. JRPGs haven't evolved since around 2008. Just the same shit repackaged with waifus. I would love to see some real novelty there.
One could also say the same thing about western "sony-exclusive-type" games. They've barely evolved, just better graphics, but since Uncharted, they're all just following that formula.
The idea that one should choose Japanese over western, or western over Japanese is just silly, they make different games, and different styles within each genre. It's a shame more Japanese devs don't try their own take on the FPS or TPS genre, because when they do, it's so unusual and fun. It's just risky, because the mass market doesn't like change or surprises.
 

Danjin44

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It's a shame more Japanese devs don't try their own take on the FPS or TPS genre, because when they do, it's so unusual and fun.
They did with games like Vanquish and Resident Evil 4 and even you can argue with God Hand, which are one best games out there.
 
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SLoWMoTIoN

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I mean...there's a lot of stagnation in Japanese games. JRPGs haven't evolved since around 2008. Just the same shit repackaged with waifus. I would love to see some real novelty there.
One could also say the same thing about western "sony-exclusive-type" games. They've barely evolved, just better graphics, but since Uncharted, they're all just following that formula.
The idea that one should choose Japanese over western, or western over Japanese is just silly, they make different games, and different styles within each genre. It's a shame more Japanese devs don't try their own take on the FPS or TPS genre, because when they do, it's so unusual and fun. It's just risky, because the mass market doesn't like change or surprises.
Name 10 Japanese JRPGs that don't have waifus even before 2008. I'll wait.
 

petran79

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In 2006 70% of Japanese games on PC were VNs. No idea what the ratio is now, but I think it's safe to assume that most of what comes out of Japan are visual novels. So literal static images with text to read where the "gameplay" consists of press X to scroll.

Take this for example:

From the moment this side quest starts at 3 mins, in the nearly 30min clip, there are (I literally counted) 10m02 of actual gameplay (and I'm being overly generous and counting a long conversation with the shopkeep, read: more scrolling text, as "gameplay", and the guy pisses around quite a bit), the rest is fmv, scrolling text and some loading. Pretty much every Yakuza game is like this. You spend most of the game watching cutscenes and reading rather than playing, unless you just mess around but in that case you could do that in any game and say they all have hundreds of hours of gameplay, western included.

Now I don't mind this, I like the Yakuza games but don't come here and say that Japanese games are all gameplay focused and western games aren't. Japanese games are the king of "no gameplay", always have been, always will be.

Try playing the prologue of Nier Automata. Most effective casual filter I've seen
 

RealGassy

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Combat in Lost Odyssey is among the very best in the genre, requiring thinking for every single fight, with a perfect balance in terms of encounter rate and experience gain that avoids grinding. This is one of the most refined games in the genre.
I guess some people have very low bar in regards to what qualifies as "require thinking".
The combat and mechanics in the game are obviously like from a early 1990s SNES game.

Having turn-based battles and random encounters has absolutely no negative impact on the quality of a game.
Random encounters ALWAYS have a negative impact on the quality of the game.

They pull you right out the game, and force you to do something you don't want to - which is engage in repetitive thoughtless combat with some generic monsters which pose no real threat or challenge.
They are 100% waste of time and padding.

It demonstrates that the game has utter disregard for your time FORCING you to spend TENS of hours on braindead idiotic combat (that's where most of the playtime in JRPGs come from!)
If a game has random encounters (especially a "modern" one), it's almost guaranteed to be absolute garbage.

They also make the dungeons and areas look completely empty, dead and devoid of life (which was probably excusable on NES or GB due to hardware limitations of the time).

You can't ever "clear out" a dungeon either, and bask in the glory of seeing corpses of all the decapitated gnomes either, to see them never bother you again. There's none of that.

Even one of the most stale and creatively bankrupt JRPGs like Pokemon Sword, have removed random encounters (made them completely avoidable).
No more wasting 10 hrs fighting some generic Zubats in a cave or whatever.

It has taken the Japs 30 YEARS since 1989 to slowly figure out that random encounters suck. Something which has always been patently obvious to anyone upon closer inspection. Maybe in 30 years more time Japs will figure out that their players are not complete morons and will make combat have some depth and require at least some thought, planning, skill, reflexes or something.

This sentence summarizes you the best.
What are you nuts?
No sane person is going to play an old JRPG without a romhack which disables random encounters, and has a 8x-16x battle animation speed hack or similar.
Wasting 20-30hrs+ on brainless JRPG combat on offchance that it has "good story", because gameplay obviously isn't.
Don't be silly.
 
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Sign

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RealGassy: If I call everyone that likes things I don't "retard" I win the the argument.

Well, I'm convinced and going to go purchase Fallout 76 and Mass Effect Andromeda right now!