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The power of Ray Tracing

GAMETA

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When not used to create ponds only.



And this is a mod. Imagine what new games could achieve with proper implementation of complex lighting and shading.

Let's hope RT doesn't become a simple reflection gimmick, it has potential to much much more.
 
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I wish Cyberpunk was going to have RT GI... alas, it will not and that will hurt it's looks.
At the very least it will almost certainly be open to mods like this though. Would obviously rather it be native. Perhaps it will be added later? I seem to remember lots of games doing updates like HBAO and such after release back when it was becoming more and more viable due to GPU horsepower.
 
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kuncol02

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Black_Stride

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RT GI is the most exciting thing about Raytracing in the coming generation....its so expensive I actually dont expect too many games to use it, but we can dream.
It so dramatically makes the whole scene seem more alive.

Reflections is probably the least exciting part of RT, screenspace and planar have been fine for a very long time, and I can live with them.


I wish Cyberpunk was going to have RT GI... alas, it will not and that will hurt it's looks.
Diffuse Illumination will have to suffice.
Im sure they tested full Global Illumination and it tanked performance well into the wait for a 4090Ti GPU to run this game levels.

But yeah they should patch in an ultra ultra mode with RT GI and RT shadows from static and dynamic lights just to really melt machines and have people complain that this game is badly optimized because my PC cant run it at 4K120fps.
 

GAMETA

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Is a PC GPU different from a Console GPU?
Console ones are usually much weaker, even on the latest hardware... which is understandable, as a high-end GPU can cost up to $1500 or more. (although a $500 one, as the RTX 3070, is already good enough)


Hopefully we see advancements in shading tech, as consoles end up being the ones that push workarounds... a mixed implementation tech that allows complex lighting and shading on consoles, even if it's baked of "fake", would be great and mitigate the lack of power. If it looks the part then it's good enough.
 
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If Fallout 5 could look like that GTA video with lots of desert, roads and small clusters of buildings, it'll be sweet.
 

Fictive

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When not used to create ponds only.



And this is a mod. Imagine what new games could achieve with proper implementation of complex lighting and shading.

Let's hope RT doesn't become a simple reflection gimmick, it has potential to much much more.
That’s a Reshade plug-in by MartyMcFly, OreoShaman just changed timecycle and weather files to get more realistic colors. So really, much of that has to do with color correction and not so much the ray tracing GI plug-in.



In this video, two instances of the plug-in are applied to provide some sort of added “spread” to the scene. Even with that, still runs at sub-30 in the country region on 3080.
 
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Denton

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I wish Cyberpunk was going to have RT GI... alas, it will not and that will hurt it's looks.
More info about this from PCG by CDP rendering director

We implemented raytracing into our engine to work as a hybrid solution, meaning that we can replace certain systems with its ray-traced version. For example, our core global illumination system uses light that comes from the sky, sun and all location light sources to dynamically produce bounced light. In raytracing mode, we use our main GI to produce only the bounced light, while the main light that comes from the sky is raytraced, giving it much better shaping and details in shadows.
Furthermore, players can expect raytracing to amplify the soft shadows of super bright emissive objects, like billboards or neon signs.
 
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GAMETA

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That’s a Reshade plug-in by MartyMcFly, OreoShaman just changed timecycle and weather files to get more realistic colors. So really, much of that has to do with color correction and not so much the ray tracing GI plug-in.



In this video, two instances of the plug-in are applied to provide some sort of added “spread” to the scene. Even with that, still runs at sub-30 in the country region on 3080.
It's the one that uses AO to implement a fake RT, right?

Still gives beautiful results. Native RT Global Illumination would probably look even better.
 
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Fictive

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It's the one that uses AO to implement a fake RT, right?

Still gives beautiful results. Native RT Global Illumination would probably look even better.
That’s correct. You can increase certain parameters to get the OP’s effect, which is really the “Bounce Light” intensity parameter turned up a good bit. I should also point out that ENB adds quite a bit to the game too, particularly a preset called “PRSA.” So it’s a combination of add-ons and mods to achieve the end result.

The most recent ENB for GTA 5 shows off NormalMapping, DetailedShadows, Shoreline shadows, and Ocean tessellation. I think what’s truly impressive is with some post-processing from Rockstar Editor, you can achieve this:


I want to see this level of post-processing applied at real-time output.
 
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Nhranaghacon

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When not used to create ponds only.

And this is a mod. Imagine what new games could achieve with proper implementation of complex lighting and shading.

Let's hope RT doesn't become a simple reflection gimmick, it has potential to much much more.

I happen to prefer Unreal Engine Apartment fly through's that are photorealistic compared to this.

In many instances, a near 100% Consistent level of photorealism has been achieved without the need to include RTX features.

And there is no reason next gen consoles couldn't actually do far better than what is shown below (some over 2 years old, some reach back 7 years)









 
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Mister Wolf

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Isn't diffuse illumination exactly that?
Yes. Cyberpunk is using the whole raytracing suite. Its a next gen game that wont be topped anytime soon. Equally as important its also doing raytraced emissive textures so all the things that are supposed to give off light actually do that interacts with the world.
 
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GAMETA

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I happen to prefer Unreal Engine Apartment fly through's that are photorealistic compared to this.

In many instances, a near 100% Consistent level of photorealism has been achieved without the need to include RTX features.

And there is no reason next gen consoles couldn't actually do far better than what is shown below (some over 2 years old, some reach back 7 years)









They're impressive but they all use baked textures... it's like the final scenes of Uncharted 4, it looks real, but it's expensive and limited to smaller areas.

Baked lighting on a whole open world is nuts. AC Unity used it to a certain extent and it's still one of the best looking games this gen, but how many studios are capable or willing to pay for that?

RT GI is a much cheaper solution as the realistic and accurate lighting and shading systems become the default.
 
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Black_Stride

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Epic was going to run voxel global illumination on the ps4 xbox one consoles, but they weren't 2.5Tflops. Lumen runs on ps5 and part of that is voxel based global illumination.

Again don't get bought by trademark terms, amd cards are easily able to do voxel based global illumination.
The video you posted is very specifically using Nvidias VXGI.
If you are talking about Lumen or some other technique.....post that technique.
But if you are going to post Nvidias VXGI then say doable on PS5 right after......I will walk you home.

I happen to prefer Unreal Engine Apartment fly through's that are photorealistic compared to this.

In many instances, a near 100% Consistent level of photorealism has been achieved without the need to include RTX features.

And there is no reason next gen consoles couldn't actually do far better than what is shown below (some over 2 years old, some reach back 7 years)

MEDIA=youtube]HsLIYYANoao[/MEDIA

MEDIA=youtube]8AsLzKkZVCA[/MEDIA

MEDIA=youtube]njpNEY3FM30:76[/MEDIA

MEDIA=youtube]ZsPM2DYBNw8:19[/MEDIA

MEDIA=youtube]-1hSq_2MxSw[/MEDIA

MEDIA=youtube]E3LtFrMAvQ4:572[/MEDIA

URL unfurl="true"]https://gifs.com/gif/xn3J6r[/URL

URL unfurl="true"]https://gifs.com/gif/vl3EQm[/UR
URL unfurl="true"]https://gifs.com/gif/P7xB7w[/URL
You have to ask yourself how much of that is baked.
How much of that would accommodate a dynamic actor in the scene without completely breaking it?

Why ArchViz scenes "easily" look photoreal even before and or without RT features is you can bake the lighting and even without baking, there is near nothing dynamic in scene.
Sure you can have a photorealistic environment, but then if one of the Bugsnax walked through it, the whole illusion is broken, you would need beyond uncanny valley characters to work in the environment.
 
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OSC

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The video you posted is very specifically using Nvidias VXGI.
If you are talking about Lumen or some other technique.....post that technique.
But if you are going to post Nvidias VXGI then say doable on PS5 right after......I will walk you home.
says 1080ti.

Point to vxgi using any specific hardware unique to nvidia, or otherwise it is nothing more than vendor branding. From what I've heard it uses vertex and pixel shaders, and a similar technique would only depend on having similar shader performance.

The ps5 has similar bandwidth and similar shader performance.
 
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cryptoadam

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honestly RT is cool but not worth it at this time. We are a console gen and probably 2 or 3 card upgrades from it making sense and not tanking performance.

You can achieve very close and similar results with cheaper modern techniques.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Black_Stride

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says 1080ti.

Point to vxgi using any specific hardware unique to nvidia, or otherwise it is nothing more than vendor branding. From what I've heard it uses vertex and pixel shaders, and a similar technique would only depend on having similar shader performance.

The ps5 has similar bandwidth and similar shader performance.
Yes AMD cards can force Unreal to use VXGI but you would get bad performance, did Nvidia purposely gimp the code to run bad on AMD, who knows but fact is it did.

Rens site and Nvidias VXGI UE4 builds are down now, but if you were into this stuff when Rens made that video you would recognize it immediately and know he was using an Nvidia custom build of UE4 with VXGI to make that video.

Can you force Nvidia VXGI UE4 to run with AMD cards, absolutely, it will run like absolute dogshit, but you could force it to run.

Theres still some backups of Nvidias UE4 builds if you want to see just how bad AMD cards run Nvidia specific effects and reverse engineer them to run well:

This version of Voxel Global Illumination is Nvidias own technique, it is not the only way to do Voxel based GI but this one Nvidia developed and basically it ran well only on Nvidia cards......you seem to think im talking about ALL Voxel based GI....the video you posted is very specifically using an Nvidia build of UE4 that is very specifically using Nvidias VXGI technique, that is not going to happen on the PS5.
 

VFXVeteran

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I happen to prefer Unreal Engine Apartment fly through's that are photorealistic compared to this.

In many instances, a near 100% Consistent level of photorealism has been achieved without the need to include RTX features.

And there is no reason next gen consoles couldn't actually do far better than what is shown below (some over 2 years old, some reach back 7 years)
You won't see it. Just because consoles are 'next-gen' and these demos have been out for years doesn't mean they magically have the power to do it. Always thinking the pie in the sky with these consoles for some reason.
 

VFXVeteran

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Yes. Cyberpunk is using the whole raytracing suite. Its a next gen game that wont be topped anytime soon. Equally as important its also doing raytraced emissive textures so all the things that are supposed to give off light actually do that interacts with the world.
Now THAT is killer! That is the next must-have feature for RT... just like they did it in Metro. But the GI is not using RT like in Crysis Remake unfortunately.
 
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cryptoadam

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I think you can get close enough. I mean in some cases people arent even sure if PS5 or XSX games have RT on or not and it requires a 200% zoom and slow down to confirm.

RT is superior and is the future, but not this gen. By the end of this gen it will be a PC thing as cards will get more powerful. But console wise what you will see is games sacraficing fps and res to get small amounts of RT or RT at low resolutions etc... look at spidermans RT. lower res, objects missing. Or R&C where the RT is only on certain surfaces.

Or you can just use SSAO and GI or baked in lighting and run a game at 4K60, or put on RT and get 1440P30 or less
 

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Epic was going to run voxel global illumination on the ps4 xbox one consoles, but they weren't 2.5Tflops. Lumen runs on ps5 and part of that is voxel based global illumination.

Again don't get bought by trademark terms, amd cards are easily able to do voxel based global illumination.
We're talking about the consoles here. And right now, the games don't exist because it's too heavy. Look at the PS4 version of Crysis Remake.. a dog in performance - and that algorithm as you say, is old. Not a single developer touched it last gen.

You got PS5 games that can barely do native 4k (using dynamic) and you expect RT GI? They might be able to make a very crude version of the GI and it will be the only implementation done but even that I'm very doubtful. The power just isn't there.
 
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OSC

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You won't see it. Just because consoles are 'next-gen' and these demos have been out for years doesn't mean they magically have the power to do it. Always thinking the pie in the sky with these consoles for some reason.
yes a 7 year old demo, won't be matched by ps5.
We're talking about the consoles here. And right now, the games don't exist because it's too heavy. Look at the PS4 version of Crysis Remake.. a dog in performance - and that algorithm as you say, is old. Not a single developer touched it last gen.

You got PS5 games that can barely do native 4k (using dynamic) and you expect RT GI? They might be able to make a very crude version of the GI and it will be the only implementation done but even that I'm very doubtful. The power just isn't there.
you talking about the dynamic 4k 60fps games? There are many native RT using 4k 30fps games without dynamic.

The original crisis ran like crap even in computers years after release. In crysis 2 or 3 they were also heavily tesselating flat surfaces. Would have to see if the developers have improved.
 

Black_Stride

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I disagree here. There is nothing that can produce similar results that's not RT. Pre-baked lighting isn't going to cut it.
Not to be a nit picky bitch.
But you can literally bake stuff that rivals RT as long as the scene has nothing dynamic in it and your bakes are high enough resolution you could/would easily get away with it.

Right down to reflections, AO and shadows even for single blades of grass.
Let the camera/actor NOT interact with anything in the scene...........boom! Realtime Graphics that rivals RT.
 

cryptoadam

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I disagree here. There is nothing that can produce similar results that's not RT. Pre-baked lighting isn't going to cut it.
I am not saying similar, I am saying acceptable enough. Like a game like spider man looks great already, seeing some extra shadows in puddles or windows isnt worth losing FPS/RES. You can still fake it so it looks good enough.

PCs with new cards every year and more power sooner rather than later RT will be a natural feature that wont kill your performance. But on consoles its not this gen. You can have last gen games run at 30 and below 4K with minimal low res RT, or you can use other techniques that get you close enough and have better graphics and frames/res.

RT is better, but for now its just to expensive for a gimmick that isn't adding that much more to games right now. PCs that wont be the case very soon, but consoles its another generation to get there.
 

OSC

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This version of Voxel Global Illumination is Nvidias own technique, it is not the only way to do Voxel based GI but this one Nvidia developed and basically it ran well only on Nvidia cards......you seem to think im talking about ALL Voxel based GI....the video you posted is very specifically using an Nvidia build of UE4 that is very specifically using Nvidias VXGI technique, that is not going to happen on the PS5.
Well guess we will see. Nvidia is known for doing things that cripple performance on competing platforms. Maybe there's some valid reason an identical technique would perform worse on other platforms. But I doubt it, I think this is likely another case of nvidia crippling performance on competitors hardware.
 

onQ123

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A more powerful GPU is what I meant. That should be obvious though from what we've seen so far.
But this is being done with a GPU that is in range with the new consoles so this can be done on consoles just at a lower framerate or resolution.
 

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yes a 7 year old demo, won't be matched by ps5.
Show the receipts. So far none of the 'next-gen' PS5 exclusives boast any kind of decent RT quality. Spiderman's reflections take out so much detail, it shows the hardware's limits.. and that's just reflections. Demon Souls has yet to show any video using RT. I wonder why that is? Lastly, R&C use reflections too on scattered objects. Nothing anywhere near the videos you showed.

you talking about the dynamic 4k 60fps games? There are many native RT using 4k 30fps games without dynamic.
Many native RT using 4k/30fps with 1 RT feature.. the simplest of them all.. reflections.

The original crisis ran like crap even in computers years after release. In crysis 2 or 3 they were also heavily tesselating flat surfaces. Would have to see if the developers have improved.
It runs fine on PCs in RTX mode. My point is that despite the VXSGI being years old, last gen consoles can't implement them to any sort of playable framerate. The key here is to play the games at acceptable FPS.

Not to be a nit picky bitch.
But you can literally bake stuff that rivals RT as long as the scene has nothing dynamic in it and your bakes are high enough resolution you could/would easily get away with it.

Right down to reflections, AO and shadows even for single blades of grass.
Let the camera/actor NOT interact with anything in the scene...........boom! Realtime Graphics that rivals RT.
A static scene isn't what I'm talking about. Even if the scene is static and the character and objects around it are dynamic, your scene is still shot because of the inaccuracies of the solution. There is too many light leaks that happen with inaccurate light probes and not enough self-shadowing.

This is completely wrong:



And that's from the latest Cyberpunk 2077 video. It shows this "not too bad" GI light probes. I'm hoping that this will be fixed with their RT ambient occlusion solution because her entire body and his arm should be in shadow. This is clearly a screenshot with RT OFF and even SSAO can't remedy that glow.
 
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VFXVeteran

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But this is being done with a GPU that is in range with the new consoles so this can be done on consoles just at a lower framerate or resolution.
The 2080Ti is crippled with performance using RT. And it's significantly more powerful than the next-gen consoles. I'm betting that the new XSX/PS5 don't have good RT performance at all compared to the 2000-series boards so be careful in comparing rasterization performance with RT performance. They are two separate things.
 
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Black_Stride

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Well guess we will see. Nvidia is known for doing things that cripple performance on competing platforms. Maybe there's some valid reason an identical technique would perform worse on other platforms. But I doubt it, I think this is likely another case of nvidia crippling performance on competitors hardware.
Just so you know VXGI was literally never implemented in any game because it was too costly.
And it was based on SVOGI so that gives you an idea of what SVOGIs V.1 cost was.

VXGI 2.0 only came out in 2018 and again nobody is staring at VXGI outside of visualizations, and no game is likely to use it.
Hell Nvidia isnt even officially keeping VXGI UE4 builds maintained?
Why you think Nvidias VXGI would be implemented in game for the first time on an AMD powered PS5 is really beyond me.
 

VFXVeteran

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Why you think Nvidias VXGI would be implemented in game for the first time on an AMD powered PS5 is really beyond me.
Because he hopes upon hope that the new consoles aren't a generation behind before they even release next month. It was already a given when they announced the specs of the consoles earlier this year. Nvidia 2000-series has been struggling with RTX for 2yrs. That's why DLSS was invented (among other things). Even a 3090 can't implement it beyond 30FPS without DLSS 2.0 and that's several magnitudes more powerful than these consoles.
 

Mister Wolf

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Not to be a nit picky bitch.
But you can literally bake stuff that rivals RT as long as the scene has nothing dynamic in it and your bakes are high enough resolution you could/would easily get away with it.

Right down to reflections, AO and shadows even for single blades of grass.
Let the camera/actor NOT interact with anything in the scene...........boom! Realtime Graphics that rivals RT.
How do you address your character and other NPC in games that don't interact with the baked lighting.
 

Black_Stride

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Because he hopes upon hope that the new consoles aren't a generation behind before they even release next month. It was already a given when they announced the specs of the consoles earlier this year. Nvidia 2000-series has been struggling with RTX for 2yrs. That's why DLSS was invented (among other things). Even a 3090 can't implement it beyond 30FPS without DLSS 2.0 and that's several magnitudes more powerful than these consoles.


I guess every generation is like this huh?

How do you address your character and other NPC in games that don't interact with the baked lighting.
Let the camera/actor NOT interact with anything in the scene...........boom! Realtime Graphics that rivals RT.