brandonh83
Banned
Yeah, what you have there is an opinion.
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The Prequels Strike Back - documentary defending the Star Wars prequels
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
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Yeah, what you have there is an opinion.
bengraven
Member
Agreed.
I love the prequels. Because they're Star Wars. I hate them almost as much as I love them, though, because they're really bad sometimes.
Lucas also did Willow, which some people love and some people hate. Most people hate Howard the Duck. Few people have ever watched Red Tails, but the ones who have seem to be going either way. I've heard people say Strange Magic was pretty decent, but again, no one watched that film. I've heard people also say Temple of Doom was the worst of the Indiana Jones films until Crystal Skull came out, but also people say that Temple is their favorite.
Much of this happened before Episode 1 ever came out. He was ALREADY dividing us.
But in the end, he created Star Wars and Indiana Jones. Okay, he and Lawrence Kasdan and Ralph McQuarrie created Star Wars.
That's a huge achievement. For that alone I named my fucking kid after him.
brandonh83
Banned
Yeah, the Lucas hate is and has always been immature bullshit.
TDLink
Member
You're right. That is a very good composition. I'll rescind my score complaint.
NyMartin90
Member
I think it added the most to Palpatine's character to see his gradual rise to power and consolidation of power using politics.
brandonh83
Banned
Obi-Wan was great too. Not sure what the problem is there.
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
What's the point of this post? Someone could reply to most of yours with the exact same thing
brandonh83
Banned
Naturally, but because he or even hundreds of thousands of people didn't personally feel the story in the prequels needed to be told doesn't mean that they didn't need to be told. They told a story and some people (gasp) liked it.
That's reason enough for it to exist. Opinions aren't strong enough to dictate whether or not something should've even been made, and while the prequels have plenty of haters, plenty of people like them too.
Raiden1018
Banned
Yeah whatever. Im sure more people would agree with mine anyway.
brandonh83
Banned
Probably!
George Lucas didn't give up the rights to Star Wars, he sold them for a vast amount of money. Everyone respects George Lucas for his early work but he deserves every bit of criticism he gets for making bad prequel films and callously erasing the work of many other artists with his Special Editions. He gives a lot of money to charity but that shouldn't influence opinions on his cinematic works.
Raiden1018
Banned
Well sure. The prequels built upon all the characters that carry over to the OT.
But not in a good way. It couldve been way better but ofcourse, Lucas fucked it up
brandonh83
Banned
It's not about criticism. It's about the ridiculously excessive vitriol.
Raiden1018
Banned
Exactly. Its called a discussion. Opinions make up most of almost all discussions. Im aware that what I said was an opinion
Raiden1018
Banned
Well when you create a saga that is cherished by millions of fanboys and geeks and then fuck it up a few years later, that tends to happen
brandonh83
Banned
It's about the presentation, I guess.
If I say "this story wasn't necessary" I realize that I'd be inviting agreement or disagreement. If I say "to me, the story wasn't necessary," at least it would come across as an opinion, rather than gospel. You responded to my post by saying this, but it didn't really counter anything. The reality is that while the prequels have a lot of detractors, not all feel that way. The younger generation liked the prequels and absolutely ate up the Clone Wars stuff.
I think, as long as there are people that find enjoyment in things, that it's reason enough for something to exist or for a story to be told. I think the Transformers films are absolute dogshit with godawful stories and scripts, but I'd never say that I don't think they're necessary as I realize there are plenty of people that like them. And as shitty as I think they are, that's perfectly fine.
He may have fucked up the prequels to some, but Star Wars is still alive and well, and in much better shape than it was. The bolded is also a thing to take into consideration, as fanboys are overdramatic about everything.
Raiden1018
Banned
First you replied to me saying that it told a story (obviously). So then I reply saying that its a story that didnt need to be told. The discussion could've furthered from there but then you go "Thats an opinion".
Im very well aware that what I said was an opinion. You didnt need to tell me. we couldve spent more time discussing why or why not it needed to be told. Like you could've asked "How did it ruin Vader's character?" "Why do you say it didn't need to be told?" You know... like a conversation.
And like that poster said, people could say the same thing to you for almost everything you say
That's inevitable when you're dealing with the most popular movie series in the world, George made billions upon billions from Star Wars and that's more than enough compensation for the Internet nerd hate.
brandonh83
Banned
Well, I know why people who don't like them feel that way. I know why you think it ruined Vader's character, or at least what you'd likely say. For me there was no real way to counter what you said as feelings are subjective and it sounded like matter of fact to me. I know I'm not going to be able to change your mind, hell, I have zero interest in that. I have problems with the prequels too. That's why I went with "it's just an opinion." I don't think anyone's opinion is fortified enough to dictate whether or not something needed to exist or be told.
I don't even know how I'm supposed to take this. You could say the same thing for anything anyone ever has to say regarding art, and I don't word my thoughts as if I'm correct or that it's a fact.
Raiden1018
Banned
The thing is, money can't buy happiness. Seeing interviews with him he seems genuinely upset that so much people utterly despise the prequels. But then again, he has himself to blame.
He does seem that way, but it must be hard to accept the criticism when you spend a 20 year hiatus being revered only for your comeback trilogy to get savaged by audiences. To this day he clings to the idea that we "didn't get it".
It's hard to feel any sympathy for him when he does things like adding the Vader Nooooo to the end of ROTJ, a movie he didn't even direct. That was just spiteful trolling.
The darth Jar Jar theory alone means the prequels were worthwhile, despite all their flaws they have many redeeming features.
The dialogue is still godawful though. If you watch them as silent movies they aren't that bad, or you can even find those Auralnauts videos which implement new and much better dialogue
The dialogue is still godawful though. If you watch them as silent movies they aren't that bad, or you can even find those Auralnauts videos which implement new and much better dialogue
matrix-cat
Member
For me, the difference is that TFA is just a fantastically fun and exciting movie to watch, whereas even the most die hard Prequel fans seem to talk about it as something 'larger' than just a movie to enjoy in the moment. It's always about world-building, fleshing out the universe, symbolism and all that Ring Theory stuff. And, I mean, more power to you if that's what you're looking for, but personally I'm just so not interested in that. Even if people are right on the money with all their theorising, and George Lucas is actually a genius who executed a master plan under our noses, those movies still aren't enjoyable to sit down and watch.
I want to see likable characters and snappy dialogue, fun action setpieces, clever jokes, excitement; basically a big ol' space adventure. TFA had all that in spades, same as the Original Trilogy, while the Prequels had none of it. I find all that world-building in the Prequels so dismal, not only because it bogs down the stories with a bunch of shit you don't care about, but because the Prequels' version of the Star Wars universe is just so depressingly dull. So much space government, trade agreements, Jedi being sexless weirdos, all that prophecy bullshit. TFA tells you only what you need to know to enjoy the movie you're currently watching, and it's so much better for it.
Who's up for Disney remaking the prequels at some point? I sincerely would be on board. It's a story I'd like to see done justice. The prequels did not do it ANY justice. ROTS went overboard making Anakin kill kids, it felt so out of place and wrong. His motivation leading him to that point made no fucking sense to me either. Palpatine feeding him stories and this great Jedi even fucking realised he was the baddie (very slowly) yet still succumbed to some really lame notion that he might save Padme by turning into a cunt... its not very well thought through and it has absolutely no emotional resonance to me. Then the acting, and direction, and overall dialogue... urgh it's all truly awful. Very few redeeming features or scenes, and ones that could have had impact in a better movie ("you were my brother Anakin!" to paraphrase) didn't do much for me.
Remake them, remix the story and motivation, get great actors and directors on board. If we need to go dark, make it all gel together. I want some titanic revelation that makes you understand why Anakin chose to turn to the dark side and become Darth Vader, played by an actor that you genuinely like and feel for (not creepy stalker Ani). It could be great.
Remake them, remix the story and motivation, get great actors and directors on board. If we need to go dark, make it all gel together. I want some titanic revelation that makes you understand why Anakin chose to turn to the dark side and become Darth Vader, played by an actor that you genuinely like and feel for (not creepy stalker Ani). It could be great.
The sad thing about the prequels is that the the idea of getting the origin story of Vader was great. It made people think about the possibilities that might be and built up hype. Also a bit too much hype. But what came out to the public was nowhere near acceptable. Not even after the hype faded and people could see what the end result was with a clear head. They are three bowls of shit with some sugar sprinkled on top. It's not pudding, it's a bowl of shit.
Discotheque
Banned
eh TV isn't necessary to properly depict a character arc. just because it gets a greater runtime and a few shows have done a great job at development now we got people throwing TV in as an ideal solution.
i'd have loved a properly done Anakin arc though, with better actors and writing. the kid from We Need to Talk about Kevin as young anakin. Adam Driver's Kylo was a better older anakin than hayden ever could be as well. you need people who can really sell that emo rage behind their eyes or psychotic apathy. either one works for me for Darth Vader.
that's kinda what the clone wars tv show did.
That it did, but one summarising the prequels would help.
broncobuster
Banned
Wouldn't be terribly difficult to think of three or four films in the last, oh, five years that did an approximation of Anakin's fall better.
TheMagician
Member
The most tragic thing about the prequels was Anakin Skywalker. He was written so badly that it defies belief.
They wrote him so young in TPM that by the time of AotC he was basically a different person.
AotC was where it nose dived though. The story of Anakin Skywalker always seemed to be that he was this great noble Jedi who was tragically seduced by the dark side of the force. In this film though he was written as a bad apple from the start, so when he did turn it was kinda like 'well you could see that coming to be fair...'
Even his first scene was him arguing with 'good friend' Obi Wan. Sorry, I forgot, the writing and footage they had so off in the wrong direction that Lucas, upon reviewing the film, decided they had to add at least one sequence where they seemed friendly with each other. In re-shoots they than added a quick scene in a lift up to Padme's apartment where they actually have a joke with each other.
Im not a Hayden Hater either. I don't think any actor could have done a much better job with the writing and dialogue on offer.
If you want to see how Anakin should be written than go and watch The Clone Wars. He's absolutely perfect in it and probably my favourite character. The writing absolutely wipes the floor with anything Lucas could come up with in the prequels.
They wrote him so young in TPM that by the time of AotC he was basically a different person.
AotC was where it nose dived though. The story of Anakin Skywalker always seemed to be that he was this great noble Jedi who was tragically seduced by the dark side of the force. In this film though he was written as a bad apple from the start, so when he did turn it was kinda like 'well you could see that coming to be fair...'
Even his first scene was him arguing with 'good friend' Obi Wan. Sorry, I forgot, the writing and footage they had so off in the wrong direction that Lucas, upon reviewing the film, decided they had to add at least one sequence where they seemed friendly with each other. In re-shoots they than added a quick scene in a lift up to Padme's apartment where they actually have a joke with each other.
Im not a Hayden Hater either. I don't think any actor could have done a much better job with the writing and dialogue on offer.
If you want to see how Anakin should be written than go and watch The Clone Wars. He's absolutely perfect in it and probably my favourite character. The writing absolutely wipes the floor with anything Lucas could come up with in the prequels.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
What films did you have in mind?
Earlier in this thread I was thinking of an older film that shares ideas in the same ballpark - Once Upon a Time in America. It does the whole childhood to adulthood as a crime lord arc in a way that is very believable (there isn't a singular fall from grace, it's more gradual, and while the characters are never extremely moral to begin with there is this romanization of their delinquent childhoods and they do become worse people over time). It has the "secret identity as a very powerful adult" thing in Woods' character, it has the love triangle and subsequent anger and hurting of loved ones and regret, broken friendships, rivalry, payback, guilt etc.
Anakin's character would be some amalgamation of de Niro's and James Woods' characters in such a case. And the other character (the best friend) would be either Obi Wan or someone new and darker that would have a negative influence on Anakin (like Woods' character had on de Niro's).
But the tone is much more serious than a Star Wars movie, which is why I said I wasn't sure Anakin's story could be done in a PG/13 setting.
toddhunter
Member
I agree 100% You could also argue it was a hate of poor writing and characterisation too. But overall immature bullshit covers the prequels very well.
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
The worst thing about the new films is the fresh wave of prequel hate that came with them.
I like them, they have their problems but they still a lot of fun. RotS is legitimately my joint favourite film (with Empire). I loved TFA but it's action scenes were lacking compared to RotS and TPM.
I like them, they have their problems but they still a lot of fun. RotS is legitimately my joint favourite film (with Empire). I loved TFA but it's action scenes were lacking compared to RotS and TPM.
Raiden1018
Banned
I pray to God that Disney remakes the prequels.
Get an Anakin that looks like young shaw, make it start off at the beginning of the clone wars, make his downfall not make him look like an idiot and boom! $$$$$
Get an Anakin that looks like young shaw, make it start off at the beginning of the clone wars, make his downfall not make him look like an idiot and boom! $$$$$
OldmanAndroid
Member
As much as I dislike the prequel films, I am grateful we got the incredible Plinkett reviews out of them.
I think the best way of doing it would be
Episode 1: Anakin as a child is just 1 or 2 scenes at the start, have him already doing stuff with the Force and then the Jedi happen upon him. He leaves with the Jedi and then we jump forward to Anakin's early teens and the rest of the film can be his training and bonding with Obi-Wan. The Jedi can uncover the Sith some other way and then either defeat the Sith apprentice or just lose the trail. Maybe Anakin has some good ideas or senses some things that can help along the way.
Episode 2: Anakin is older now, really good friends with Obi-Wan and a really good up and coming Jedi. Have him be cocky, but not whingy or mopey like in AotC. This is when he meets Padme and falls for her. Maybe have the film cover a couple of years so you can see them fall in love and keep it a secret. The Clone Wars start and more of the Sith plans are uncovered. Some battle scenes, maybe even some missions where they start discovering more Sith stuff and hints at someone (Palpatine) doing shit. Obi-Wan and Anakin work with Palpatine and he starts influencing him.
Episode 3: This is where Anakin should stray from the path. His love of Padme and the things Palpatine is feeding him can distract him and make him question normal Jedi values and order. Starts to bicker and argue with Obi-Wan and other Jedi. Have some thing with the Council where he gets demoted or his Knighthood delayed or something. Palpatine can start really pushing him and also taking more power. I'm not quite sure how to handle the birth and of Luke and Leia and then Padme dying, but it should NOT be her giving up, Anakin should be more involved, maybe even have them fighting about something Palpatine said and then him snapping. From there you can have a big final battle with Obi-Wan and have Anakin get all fucked up, ready to be put in the suit.
To me, Ep 1 feels entirely unnecessary in its current form. All it does is introduce characters and then have not much happen. Palpatine does shady shit that means nothing in the bigger story. The Jedi could've just taken Anakin and gone, but we spend the whole film dicking around and racing pods and then doing a big battle that hardly impacts anything.
Chronicle basically told a "Anakin on earth" story.
And that was a film shorter than any of the prequels.
Auto-Reply
Member
The prequels brought a lot of entertainment, for the wrong reasons but entertainment no less.
I can appreciate that.
I can appreciate that.
Raiden1018
Banned
Yep. Lol.
This is their only redeeming characteristic...the rifftrax aren't half bad either
Force Awakens is a fine movie; the weird backlash to it has always confused me
Discotheque
Banned
yeah those soundtracks sure weren't good huh....
Not a huge fan of John Williams outside of the impossibly large role his main themes play in star wars and other movies. The vast majority of the music is not something I would just listen to by itself like a Hans Zimmer score. So the only way to listen would be to watch the prequels. No thanks.
Why? I'll admit Trevorrow has a decent chance of cocking up 9 ROTJ style, but we're already batting 1000 and 8 seems to be in good hands.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Actually the more I think of this, it almost seems to fit too well!
Obi Wan would essentially be de Niro's character with the nastier parts removed (ten years in prison for killing the rival gang leader who killed his friend and the rape) or transferred to Anakin which would take on James Woods' character.
They'd be reckless, impure characters as teenagers, with Anakin more morally grey than Obi Wan but also highly charismatic and extremely likable. Obi Wan would be a padawan and Anakin an orphan delinquent (possibly due to being sold as a slave at a young age or some other story). A local criminal with a grudge against Anakin would kill one of his younger friends and in the ensuing fight Anakin would kill the criminal and be sent to jail for ten years. Obi Wan would be reprimanded by the Jedi for associating with such a person but would eventually wisen up (morally) be forgiven and complete his training to become a Jedi. While Anakin is serving the final year(s) of his sentence the crisis leading up to the clone wars would begin and the Jedi would be recruiting heavily to build up their ranks in preparation.
By this time Obi Wan will already have become a respected Jedi and so when Anakin is released and they resumed their friendship he would believe he was capable of training him and request to take him on as his Padawan. Yoda would object but ultimately agree as Anakin was clearly strong in the force and Obi Wan would stand up for Anakin ultimately being a good man (no need for a prophecy or midichlorians, Obi Wan's love for his friend is his motivation).
Initially they'd be a great team and make valuable contributions to the republic army in the clone wars (as seen in the animated series) but as time went by Anakin would become increasingly self obsessed, begin to associate with bad people and turn increasingly unstable (paralleling James Woods' process: working with the Italians, planning the federal bank heist etc). There would be a stronger love triangle with Padme (Obi Wan wouldn't directly pursue her romantically due to being a Jedi but they would be friends and it would be clear there is chemistry) feeding into Anakin's jealousy and feelings of rivalry.
After the final confrontation between the two Anakin could be assumed to be dead by Obi Wan (which is what happens in Once Upon a Time) but secretly re-emerge as a highly influential criminal under a new name (Obi Wan could find this out some time before episode 4 or he could know all along). Just as de Niro went into hiding for 30 years, so would Obi Wan, during which he would be riddled with guilt, preventing him from moving on with his life. And if we want to make it even darker then Padme's pregnancy could be a result of rape by Anakin (mirroring Once Upon a Time again).
I feel such disappointment when I listen to this song. Not at all because the song sucks (it's actually one of JW's better pieces in the SW universe), but because I get this feeling like it describes a movie never made. One where we get to know Anakin, we like him, we watch him fall in love with Padme, and their love is a driving force in deciding Anakin's ultimate fate. That song reminds me of how amazing the story could have potentially been in the PT (could have matched the OT's greatness, just in a different way).
Makes me sad honestly. JW delivered so much and didn't get the same care or quality in return.
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