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[BeauRoger]

Never liked scaling down, but scaling up is fine to a certain degree.

 

[SuperChoco]

I honestly liked the implementation of scaling in Skyrim. Enemies are divided into tiers and the higher level you are, the more likely the higher tier enemies appear. As an example, At level 1 you would fight bandits, who use weak weapons. At a higher level, you can still find those weak bandits but there is also a chance of finding stronger tier enemies such as Bandit Thugs or Bandit Marauders. Scaling works best when there isn't an emphasis on leveling and having a non linear world. A game like Final Fantasy 8, where it is mostly linear anyway, doesn't really suit level scaling very well.

 

[Hellsing321]

Auto scaling: not even once.

 

[Mesoian]

Against.

But group leveling on a pool? Absolutely.

 

[mclem]

I think scaling can - in principle - be done right.

It just rarely is.

The thing is, I play RPGs slow and leisurely, and I'm fine with that; that's my style. But it does tend to be that I'm overlevelled for progression content before too long. I tend to do way more sidequests than a designer would expect, and have a naturally grindy style, but I don't actually *want* the game to be significantly simpler as a result; I just like immersing myself in the world.

(Of course, a sufficiently interesting combat system that means you can't cheese fights just through being higher level would solve that, but ahahahah)

 

[Fiercedeity]

I'm sorry, are you somehow under the impression that you presented a cogent argument?

My reply was the flip opposite of yours with zero additional content -- precisely to point out how you had done little to make your point.

My comments have been more than "no it's not." I think it's fairly obvious that implementing a level scaling system of some kind is not any different than implementing any other system in an rpg, they're all just as arbitrary ultimately.

 

[AESplusF]

It really depends on the game. There is no easy answer. If you're making a bad game, you would definitely want level scaling. If you're making a good game, that's one of the first things you would veto. I guess it would be simpler if everyone wanted to make good RPGs, but that might be asking for too much.

I was thinking wow fuck this duckroll guy...

No scaling ever
Now if new higher level enemies started appearing in some places that would be okay but no scaling.

 

[blacklotus]

Zero level scaling for me. No point.

 

[FlyinJ]

Fiercedeity is systems designer at Bethesda confirmed

 

[That1BlackGuy]

I've never liked auto-scaling, likely never will.

 

[V-Gief]

Thanks, but no thanks. Being able to cheese your way to/legitimately acquiring stronger equipment than you should be able to get your hands on early on is fun for repeat play-troughs.

 

[Justified]

Lol this assumes that every single rpg is about that or should be about that.

It doesnt.

That was just my example. My point is that it removes the natural feel of level progress. Unless it has equipment caps I guess

 

[5taquitos]

No dilemma here, turn that shit off!

 

[DocSeuss]

I loved going underground in Skyrim in areas where I was outclassed by certain enemies and actually having to rely on all my items to survive.

 

[QaaQer]

auto leveling is by far the more enjoyable system until the player sees it. Once they see it, the sense of progression vanishes and the game becomes boring.

 

[Elitro]

Touchy subject. I think if done correctly it may prove to be a good option.

Personally after playing DA:I i really felt the game becomes trivial if you do all the side quests, because eventually you become too strong and the fights just become boring.

 

[LowSignal]

AGAINST

Nothing beats exploring a area you don't belong because you are way under level.

 

[TeddyShardik]

Don't like auto scaling at all. Not even slightly.

I WANT to be able to run over everything if I decide to grind enough and I WANT to feel like my character itself is getting stronger, not just the stuff he finds.

Just make sure the game is balanced and doesn't become a cakewalk without said grinding.

 

[QaaQer]

I loved going underground in Skyrim in areas where I was outclassed by certain enemies and actually having to rely on all my items to survive.

Pretty sure Skyrim enemies are scaled and the systems based on hidden dynamic difficulty. Or was that sarcasm?

 

[M0nochromatic]

Here's the absolute worst example of auto scaling.

In Skyrim there are specific weapons that have unique attributes and designs, but the power of unique equipment scales when you first acquire it, so if you get it early in the game, it'll become shit compared to stuff you get as you level up!

So this awesome Nighting Gale gear you got early on in your character progression becomes super useless in like 10 hours even though its unique legendary gear.

Get outta here with that.

 

[Tenebrous]

Auto scaling is just an excuse for developer incompetence and/or catering to the lowest common denominator. Thankfully, real RPGs tend to avoid such nonsense.

 

[Randam]

FF 8 had it.

i never noticed it.

 

[lazygecko]

Pretty sure Skyrim enemies are scaled and the systems based on hidden dynamic difficulty. Or was that sarcasm?

It is a mix. See my earlier post explaining encounter zones. This also applies to NPCs and monsters themselves. Falmer enemies for example have a pretty high minimum level so if you go into a Falmer place at level 1 you'll probably get your ass kicked.

 

[Maggots]

Thats Why FF8 was stupid

Spoiler

Still couldn't stop playing it though

 

[Mihos]

Autoscaling is why you never do any of the weapon quest in Elder Scrolls games until you reach level cap.... it's stupid.

Give me a few high level mobs in the newbie area I have to tip-toe around and let me come back later in the game and wreck them with my new found powers.

 

[MrDoctor]

Fuck no. It's one of those "solutions" used by hack devs who have no understanding of what makes games compelling.

It really depends on the game. There is no easy answer. If you're making a bad game, you would definitely want level scaling. If you're making a good game, that's one of the first things you would veto. I guess it would be simpler if everyone wanted to make good RPGs, but that might be asking for too much.

The perfect response

 

[marrec]

auto leveling is by far the more enjoyable system until the player sees it. Once they see it, the sense of progression vanishes and the game becomes boring.

Which is exactly why games like Skyrim are initially very engaging and then quickly become shallow and boring. At that point I don't even have good feelings toward my initial hours playing the game and I just feel cheated by the game designers.

There is no qualitative reason for auto-scaling beyond "I need to balance content easily."

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

AGAINST

.

 

[Just take it with you.]

Level scaling is of the devil and should be extirpated wherever it is found.

It greatly diminishes, if not outright destroys, the sense of progression that I enjoy in RPGs.

 

[Ralemont]

Here's the absolute worst example of auto scaling.

In Skyrim there are specific weapons that have unique attributes and designs, but the power of those weapons scales, so if you get it early in the game, it'll become shit compared to stuff you get as you level up!

So this awesome Nighting Gale gear you got early on becomes super useless in like 10 hours because you wanted it early on.

Get outta here with that.

Isn't TW3 doing that?

 

[Vital Tundra]

I find auto-scaling diminishes the feeling of growth and progression.

 

[Z3M0G]

It really depends on the game. There is no easy answer. If you're making a bad game, you would definitely want level scaling. If you're making a good game, that's one of the first things you would veto. I guess it would be simpler if everyone wanted to make good RPGs, but that might be asking for too much.

I love this post so much!

 

[Einbroch]

Never.

Fucking awful decision that ruined Oblivion for me.

 

[Zombie James]

I hate auto-scaling with a passion. The big draw of an RPG is progression and having enemies always being around your level no matter what really takes away from that.

 

[Acerac]

Autoscaling tends to suck pretty hard. The only time I've seen it as passable is when it's limited to a specific range. While enemies can keep up a bit with you, the growth will be evident and you'll clearly outscale them.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Don't they level scale intentionally to add freedom to the game?

I could see a developer wanting to grant as much freedom as possible and a lack of level scaling can hurt that. I like when I can literally explore wherever I want. And if an area is too hard, then yes I'll return when I'm stronger. But if I miss an easy area and stumble upon it when I'm a high level, I'm not going to have fun killing basic enemies.

 

[Chozo_Lord]

Against. I never played previous witcher games but I'm disappointed enemies and loot apparently scale with your level. The min-maxer in me would see what the weapon loot is and purposely skip that mission and come back at a higher level so the weapon or whatever is top-tier. The most recent games I can remember that did this wrong is Borderlands and Skyrim.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

If you bungle your characters somehow in a game with auto-scaling, you can have some real nightmare scenarios like in Oblivion. Also, what's the point of an RPG if I can't go back and hilariously beat up on enemies that gave me trouble in the beginning?

Haha, fuck Oblivion. The leveling system coupled with the scaling pretty much killed that game. The first time I played it, I was entirely familiar with the Elder Scrolls, so after making a custom using major skills I figured I'd use a lot I thought I was ready to go. Of course after quickly leveling up a few times I found my ass getting handed to me by just about any minor goblin I came across.

The solution is obviously to pick major skills that you don't use much so you can control when you level up in a way to get your max multipliers. Otherwise you're fucked. Bravo Bethesda.

So yeah, level scaling is bad. Bethesda has done somewhat better since, but they still have issues.

 

[M0nochromatic]

Isn't TW3 doing that?

I hope not, or I hope that they at least make exceptions for unique pieces of equipment.

Getting Excalibur early on, and then having it be worse then a standard iron sword at endgame "because reasons" is insulting. At least add a stat scaling system, or upgrade path if you'r gonna do that.

 

[QaaQer]

It is a mix. See my earlier post explaining encounter zones. This also applies to NPCs and monsters themselves. Falmer enemies for example have a pretty high minimum level so if you go into a Falmer place at level 1 you'll probably get your ass kicked.

I see. It's a good way way to obfuscate the level scaling without introducing the rage-quitting frustrations of non-scaled enemies. Same thing with dynamic difficulties, it has to remain hidden or it can ruin the illusion.

 

[Chille]

FF 8 had it.

i never noticed it.

If you were smart you could use that as an advantage, I made sure I never got alot of xp so the enemies stayed low level, to do this I would use the card ability every battle to turn them into cards, then turn the cards into magic/tools to boost my stats while being low level. I normally hate games that auto level, i want to be able to grind for hours and slaughter everything after.

 

[Ralemont]

I hope not, or I hope that they at least make exceptions for unique pieces of equipment.

Getting Excalibur early on, and then having it be worse then a standard iron sword at endgame "because reasons" is insulting. At least add a stat scaling system, or upgrade path if you'r gonna do that.

It's kind of weird, because monsters won't scale, but items will:

You won’t find items you can’t use because you’re too low level. They will automatically scale down to your level if they’re too high for you. For instance the damage of a weapon will be lower, even if they will keep their “cool” elements like setting elements on fire for instance. Once you pick up an item, its stats are set, so it won’t scale back up to its original stats. That said, you’ll always get better loot as you move forward anyway. There’s no need to wait to be the right level before you get an item.

Sounds like the worst of both worlds to me. Spend all that time struggling to beat something a higher level than you, and your reward is something equivalent to beating a punch of puny rats. (Special abilities of the weapon aside)

 

[mcz117chief]

For instance, I've been playing Gothic 2 recently and god this game is fucking tough. I can't even beat up a giant rat without having to back to town and take a nap for HP. My steam profile says I've been playing the game for 20 hours. My in game timer says I've been playing it for 11. A big discrepency in that is testing the waters with enemies I'm not supposed to fight or just dicking around in general. When I'm in the presence of a Lurker or a Fire Lizard, I know I'm in danger because they can actually kill me. And if they chase me they will catch up and hit me a few times. It gives a real sense of danger. And also a real sense of accomplishment because after all these hours of trying to become a mage I'm finally accepted into the order and I can finally start using magic to defeat difficult enemies.

And geeze, does it feel good to kill enemies I previously couldn't defeat.

So you went hard mode on your first playthrough ? It took me a couple of runs to find out you could even sing up as a mage to begin with. Anyway, I found the 1st one a bit harder and I played the second one first so no classic excuse that the first one you play is harder. In the 1st game you can't even damage enemies which are way stronger than you.

 

[Gouty]

Why not design the game without scaling in mind but leave it in as an option? The gaming crowd would get a top to bottom well designed RPG while the auto level crowd would have a big, messy bowl of go anywhere at any time shit that they're too dumb to realize sucks anyway.

 

[SuperChoco]

Another example of level scaling being useful is Final Fantasy Tactics. In FFT, all the random encounters have enemies tied to Ramza's Level while all the battle that are tied to the story have set levels. If random encounters had set levels, then eventually random encounters would be a waste of time as you would eventually get an insignificant amount of EXP from enemies, which would lead to frustration since you can't run from encounters and each encounter would be about 10 minutes long. It works though, because there is less of an emphasis on levels themselves and more on the abilities you can learn and your equipment (the latter based on where you are in the story).

I can understand why people are against scaling but I think it works fine if there's less emphasis on the levels themselves and the game is built around the enemies scaling.

 

[Daffy Duck]

I'm against it!

If I wonder off the beaten track into some crazy enemy I either run away or take my chances.

 

[Jeronimo Jones]

I'm on the anti-scaling side.

Wandering off to end up exploring areas with powerful enemies and finding great weapons/armor by sheer luck is a win to me, even if I'm not yet able to properly use the gear at my low level.

 

[QaaQer]

Which is exactly why games like Skyrim are initially very engaging and then quickly become shallow and boring. At that point I don't even have good feelings toward my initial hours playing the game and I just feel cheated by the game designers.

There is no qualitative reason for auto-scaling beyond "I need to balance content easily."

Definitely not a game for people who like to dive into systems; but for those who like to down some beer and kill some stuff after work, it is fantastic.

Personally, I like games with no scaling, no difficulty sliders, and gameplay that rewards real world skill development and not just time invested, although I want that rewarded as well. Yeah, Miyazaki ruined most AAA games for me.

 

[OuterLimits]

There must be arguments for level scaling, right? Because a few games implemented them.

I'm honestly struggling to think of one positive.

Someone brave enough to play devil's advocate and illuminate me?

I suppose the ability to explore a big part of the world earlier in the game and not be limited to "beginner" zones?

I don't mind the majority of enemies scaling with the player if there are still exceptions to the rule. If you are level 50, it would still be good to have some weak enemies and garbage treasure chests. If you are low level, having the very rare enemy way above your level would be good. Having some set level bosses that don't scale would be good as well. Or having a super slim chance of getting an item well above your level.

Every enemy and item being within a few levels of you sucks though.

 

[Overside]

I say no to shitty failures in game design.