Also the opposite, going through a super tough area outside of your reach, to get absurd loot.
Like doing the New Londo Ruins run at the start of Dark Souls 1, or the Catacombs.
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The RPG dilemma: auto-scaling or not?
- Thread starter Majukun
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Also the opposite, going through a super tough area outside of your reach, to get absurd loot.
Like doing the New Londo Ruins run at the start of Dark Souls 1, or the Catacombs.
I agree with this.
Making enemies more and more irrelevant as you level up (I'm considering an open RPG where you will wander around the initial areas towards the end of the game) is bad design. Making every enemy scale up with you is also bad. I think the "general" enemies should scale with you so that they're always a bit of a challenge. Special enemies should be hard and not scale.
Kadin
Member
Is there a good or 'best' example of a game that does level scaling right, or at least in an acceptable way? It's crazy to think that so many hate the idea of scaling (and I'm one of them) yet it happens so much now. Are devs simply unaware or do they figure we'll just deal with it?
Exactly. I don't want to trounce everything after reaching a certain level. That is boring and not fun. If I have to go back to an area (and it's an RPG so of course I do) I want to have some challenge in the combat. If I'm overlevelled it should be slightly easier, but not walk-in-the-park easier.
Scaling can be done correctly. Problem is very few games do it well.
Filling bars. It's what gamers want, apparently.
But honestly, there's very little "point" to leveling up in cRPGs. It's mostly about lazily creating a Skinner box to convince players to grind away their hours for artificially constrained rewards.
The mechanism was forgivable when cRPGs were in their infancy, but it has long since been exposed as pay2win-level game design.
"I'm against scaling, except for this scaling"
Vincent Grayson
Member
I'm not sure that it *is* too involved. I think you can craft a compelling game where encounters are always tailored to the party/character's level, and use a variety of enemies. The catch, of course, is that you either don't allow players to "grind" (like Pillars of Eternity), or you design the game to be so linear that you know at all times the approximate power level of the characters (like Final Fantasy XIII).
Ally of Justice
Member
I like to feel powerful after a lot of game time, returning or having to pass through low-level areas killing everything in sight (if I bother too) without difficulty, but those monsters that are meant to be difficult should scale their level to be equivalent.
I mean, I don't want Lv99 bats and slimes running around, but the King Mook of the Mook Swamp and his close minions shouldn't stay at Level 10 all the game, especially if there's a reason to return there...
I mean, I don't want Lv99 bats and slimes running around, but the King Mook of the Mook Swamp and his close minions shouldn't stay at Level 10 all the game, especially if there's a reason to return there...
panda-zebra
Member
Can't beat the thrill of getting away with shit you're really not meant to and coming away with amazing spoils. Levelling for the sake of levelling can go get fucked, along with boring scaled loot that's more hassle than its worth dismantling/selling/dropping/whatever.
dead souls
Member
Auto-scaling is a terrible blight on gaming. I hate it.
nintendork666
Member
Ew. I didn't even know thatwas a thing. Keep that shit away from my RPGs please.
Right, because both scenarios are failing to solve the real problem, which is that Dungeons A-C are shit.
Here's the real reason auto-scaling exists:
AAA game costs $20M to make dungeons A, B, C, D, and E. Finance is concerned that if most players starts at D and then moves on to E, they will have spent $12M making content that doesn't get seen. Implement a system so that any sequence of A, B, C, D, and E is more-or-less equal in progression. (Let's assume that there's no budget to upgrade A-C, and D+E by itself is not enough content to justify a retail release)
TheKingOfPain
Member
Not.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
I am not a really skilled gamer. I like to grind and completely destroy lower leveled mobs.
makes me feel really powerful. (also good for my ego)
only to be put back in my place further in the game.
by and harder enemy.
(so i grind again)
people that like challenge don't grind in rps's
i can't believe i'm the only one that likes this.
lvl 80+ in breath of fire 2
lvl 99 in ff12
etc
makes me feel really powerful. (also good for my ego)
only to be put back in my place further in the game.
by and harder enemy.
(so i grind again)
people that like challenge don't grind in rps's
i can't believe i'm the only one that likes this.
lvl 80+ in breath of fire 2
lvl 99 in ff12
etc
Junahu
Member
Level Scaling can work, so long as there is a deeper economy around strengthening your characters.
In FF8, "Level" really just means the enemy's strength. The more battles you fight, the better you become at the fighting system, and the stronger the enemies become. For having a high level, you can earn a higher salary, which comes in handy for buying new weapons and consumables.
Your own strength comes from junctions that you make (equipping magic directly to your stats). Stronger enemies carry better magic that you can steal. In this way, you can still grind and make enemies a joke, but not just statistically, you also get better tools to deal with foes.
But there are also other ways to earn the magic you need to get stronger. You can turn enemies into cards and convert those into magic, you can convert the enemy's loot into magic, you can play cards with NPCs and turn your winnings into magic, you can pick up magic from special magic fonts that appear on the map. You can do all of these things in addition to, or in place of the usual grinding of enemies that RPGs tend to devolve into.
In this way FF8 has its scaled-level cake and eats it too. Casual playthroughs are matched to the player's experience, but more savvy players can advance ahead of the curve and push through the game faster.
In FF8, "Level" really just means the enemy's strength. The more battles you fight, the better you become at the fighting system, and the stronger the enemies become. For having a high level, you can earn a higher salary, which comes in handy for buying new weapons and consumables.
Your own strength comes from junctions that you make (equipping magic directly to your stats). Stronger enemies carry better magic that you can steal. In this way, you can still grind and make enemies a joke, but not just statistically, you also get better tools to deal with foes.
But there are also other ways to earn the magic you need to get stronger. You can turn enemies into cards and convert those into magic, you can convert the enemy's loot into magic, you can play cards with NPCs and turn your winnings into magic, you can pick up magic from special magic fonts that appear on the map. You can do all of these things in addition to, or in place of the usual grinding of enemies that RPGs tend to devolve into.
In this way FF8 has its scaled-level cake and eats it too. Casual playthroughs are matched to the player's experience, but more savvy players can advance ahead of the curve and push through the game faster.
Vincent Grayson
Member
He's not saying that in this scenario dungeons A-C are shit. He's saying that the player in question wants a level of challenge those early dungeons don't offer.
I think the answer here is difficulty levels, but of course those are a headache in and of themselves.
mcz117chief
Member
No level scaling is generally better but there are some cases where level scaling works. In order for the developer to drop level scaling you also need to have a good encounter or enemy system. NOTHING is more infuriating than when you beat a boss/army/epic monster only to wander into a "high level area" and get killed by a bandit in one hit...I am looking at you MMOs (not all but some)
I think very minor scaling (at least in more non-linear RPG's) can work; like how the Baldur's Gate games make some key encounters slightly more difficult at certain level thresholds, which keeps certain fights tougher as you level, but doesn't make leveling pointless by replacing everything either. A lot of encounters also still have minimum level thresholds where you'll get slaughtered unless you know exactly what you're doing (but you can still prevail if you do)
What I was describing, in very vague (and only slightly exaggerated) terms, was Act II of Pillars of Eternity. I definitely would not call the game 'shit', nor would I call most of the content in Act II 'shit'.
But if the first significant quest you deal with in Act II, when your party is still between levels 4 and 5, is the one having to do with the noble's daughter gone missing in Dyrford, and that's the level of difficulty that you calibrate your playstyle toward, then everything in Act II (save maybe the Lighthouse), and indeed nearly everything else in the entire rest of the game (except the bottom few floors of the Endless Paths and a scattered handful of other fights), becomes trivially easy in comparison, when you take into account the experience you'll be earning as you complete that other content.
If your proposed solution to that problem is that Pillars of Eternity should have jettisoned everything in Act 2 that ranks as easier than being level ~5 and fighting
Wymund, and the rest of the Skaen cult temple, and all those fucking Adra Beetles hanging around the temple's entrance
on the topic of scaling enemies and the beat heads titles I would like to say I love Fallout New Vegas!
Even though i think it still had scaling enemies, many places were designed for you to not be able to do even though you could find them early. I still feel it had the best rpg world progression of all the Beathesda titles, as it felt more like an old school rpg in its world layout.
that and the way you interacted with all the other clans of people individually instead of just good or bad choices, so good.
I want another game that is like it, far more than fallout 3 successor or the next elderscrolls. the felt a lot more empty to me...
Obsidian should be proud they made a real gem.
Even though i think it still had scaling enemies, many places were designed for you to not be able to do even though you could find them early. I still feel it had the best rpg world progression of all the Beathesda titles, as it felt more like an old school rpg in its world layout.
that and the way you interacted with all the other clans of people individually instead of just good or bad choices, so good.
I want another game that is like it, far more than fallout 3 successor or the next elderscrolls. the felt a lot more empty to me...
Obsidian should be proud they made a real gem.
Against.
The only thing I can accept is ranged scaling, which can work for some games.
So let's say certain areas are intended for levels 10-14, and the enemies scale 1-3 levels within that range depending on how much difference a single level has on combat stats. If you enter the area as level 9, then the enemies would be level 10. If you enter as level 14, then the enemies would be level 14. If you entered as level 20, then the enemies would be 14 or whatever level they were when you first entered the area.
But then again, why even bother with scaling at this point?
The only thing I can accept is ranged scaling, which can work for some games.
So let's say certain areas are intended for levels 10-14, and the enemies scale 1-3 levels within that range depending on how much difference a single level has on combat stats. If you enter the area as level 9, then the enemies would be level 10. If you enter as level 14, then the enemies would be level 14. If you entered as level 20, then the enemies would be 14 or whatever level they were when you first entered the area.
But then again, why even bother with scaling at this point?
More Fun To Compute
Member
The problem with scaling is that people notice it when it's heavy handed and clumsy but don't notice it when it makes their game more exciting.
A random encounter should scale a bit to make it somewhat on the challenge level of the player. But if you have the same encounter over and over and see it change from being less challenge than a rat to more of a challenge than a dragon then it's absurd. For a game like Skyrim to scale a dragon down to be able to be killed at level one and have them also one shot killed by a normal enemy. They should just show some restraint in their power fantasy indulgence and not have the player fighting a dragon solo as an early encounter.
But if an RPG has a random encounter, say with another party of adventurers, that can happen at any point in the game at a certain point on the map then there should be some scaling to make it not be too easy or hard.
The classic JRPG static world system is actually too basic and leads to too many problems that have solutions like grinding.
A random encounter should scale a bit to make it somewhat on the challenge level of the player. But if you have the same encounter over and over and see it change from being less challenge than a rat to more of a challenge than a dragon then it's absurd. For a game like Skyrim to scale a dragon down to be able to be killed at level one and have them also one shot killed by a normal enemy. They should just show some restraint in their power fantasy indulgence and not have the player fighting a dragon solo as an early encounter.
But if an RPG has a random encounter, say with another party of adventurers, that can happen at any point in the game at a certain point on the map then there should be some scaling to make it not be too easy or hard.
The classic JRPG static world system is actually too basic and leads to too many problems that have solutions like grinding.
SteveO1683
Member
It's one of the things I dislike the most about Western RPGs.
There's other approaches to use. For example, you have an event occur during Dungeon C that adds the consequence of tougher monsters being present in Dungeon A. Sort of the inverse of what happens in Mega Man X if you defeat Chill Penguin before going to the Flame Mammoth stage.
You get the benefit of scaling (Dungeon A still poses a challenge), but the added challenge is due to player agency and not because they sat and grinded levels. It also builds on the whole "actions have consequences" theme that RPGs usually strive for.
Nose Master
Member
Against, simply because it removes any reason to level. If you can plow through endgame at level 3, something's wrong. Some games get around this by having the bosses not scale and everything else scale, but pfft.
If you have the crazily fast power gain that is ubiquitous in RPGs, then level scaling is good.
It gives more freedom to the player, it allows for an enjoyable level of challenge all the way through and it improves the coherence and believability of the game world.
It does remove grinding as a strategy, but I can only see that as a good thing.
It gives more freedom to the player, it allows for an enjoyable level of challenge all the way through and it improves the coherence and believability of the game world.
It does remove grinding as a strategy, but I can only see that as a good thing.
Yep, Xenoblade has the best method. I remember going to Gaur Plain for the first time and being shocked by some of the higher level enemies, but it makes sense for every area to have a range of enemy levels.
DarkCronos
Member
Against.
It is one of the MANY reasons FFVIII is so bad. It actually reward players who don't grind at all (=who invest less in the game)
It is one of the MANY reasons FFVIII is so bad. It actually reward players who don't grind at all (=who invest less in the game)
BlazingDarkness
Member
No, never. What's the point? It removes all sense of development. It makes no sense to me. Never has.
Baldur's Gate 2 scales encounters - depending on your level, in some areas you'll face different or larger groups of monsters. But it's only in certain areas, and the monsters don't get any stronger, they just get replaced by different types, and bosses are fixed level.
Level scaling is a perfect way to turn me off from a game. I want to stumble into an area that is full of tough mobs that will destroy me so when I'm stronger I can go back to that area and kill them. That feeling of accomplishment is much better than one that allows you to go everywhere with scalableonstets imo
Aaronrules380
Member
Auto scaling is awful. Enemies should get easier as you get stronger. Loot scaling is also bad. If I was able to beat a super powerful enemy before I was supposed to, I should be properly rewarded for it. Now you might be thinking: What about loot from chests? But even that isn't an unsolvable problem. Xenoblade X to my understanding (I haven't personally played the game, since I don't know Japanese) has a system where on field loot "chests" are actually various types of objects, and you need a certain level of skill with that category of "chest" in order to actually get stuff from it. An example is to salvage stuff from a broken vehicle, you'd need a certain level of mechanical searching in order to succeed. Thus you can hide better rewards behind chests that have high skill requirements, which helps preserve balance without resorting to scaling
Robert7lee
Neo Member
I had no idea Most people hated this as well, I'm losing my hipster status.
Scaling:
me "oh cool, I'm now level 10! I can do 5 extra damage and have 50 more hit points!"
Being brought back down to earth "ah fuck this troll has 100 more hit points and does 100 more damage!! And what's coming from his butt??? Is he shooting fire from his arse??!!!
I hope rpg developers notice this thread and take notice.