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[Mike M]

Also worth noting that the point of the summary in this instance is to entice a potential reader to want to find out more, not to provide so much detail that they could just skip the book : )

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Random research-related question.

I want to learn more about seafaring traders, merchant ships, etc (this is relating to a possible NaNo idea). I am thinking (I think) of the early to mid Renaissance period, Italian merchant princes kind of stuff. In particular I want to learn about:
-what life was like on a merchant ship of the era
-what sorts of things they traded, how the trade routes worked
-how natural stuff like currents and predictable winds might affect trade
-how unnatural stuff like tariffs and warfare might affect trade

The first two are what I'm most interested in, followed by the third, followed distantly by the fourth. Does anyone know of good books or other resources on the subject, or at least a place to start looking? When I try to look for stuff, I feel like I'm looking much too broadly and the results I get are too general.

So, this is completely off base of what you're looking for, as it is very early 1800s and not about trader, but The Master and Commander is a great book. I read it for research simply to get an idea of naval life. I'll see what else I can find out, since my recommendation is close to what you're looking for, while at the same time being completely not what you're looking for.

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

I've finished the first, uh, "episode" of my book. I'm not sure what else to call it. I basically want to break the book up into 5 or 6 smaller parts, like a short season of a TV series. Longer than a chapter, but shorter than individual books. I'm sure the format has been done before, but I couldn't tell you where.

Anyway, I have no idea what to do now. Do I go back and edit, or do I keep pushing forward? I feel like I'm out of ideas again, and I have no idea if what I've written is even worth continuing to pursue.

 

[sirap]

I've finished the first, uh, "episode" of my book. I'm not sure what else to call it. I basically want to break the book up into 5 or 6 smaller parts, like a short season of a TV series. Longer than a chapter, but shorter than individual books. I'm sure the format has been done before, but I couldn't tell you where.

Anyway, I have no idea what to do now. Do I go back and edit, or do I keep pushing forward? I feel like I'm out of ideas again, and I have no idea if what I've written is even worth continuing to pursue.

I have a series now that runs about 20k words per episode. Having moderate success at 0.99, will probably make gangbusters once I release the rest of the books and do some targeted ads.

It really depends on your genre. Mysteries and fantasy don't do well below 10k words, while genres like erotics sell with even 5000 words. Make sure you check out the competition and see what the readers say.

 

[Nappuccino]

I've finished the first, uh, "episode" of my book. I'm not sure what else to call it. I basically want to break the book up into 5 or 6 smaller parts, like a short season of a TV series. Longer than a chapter, but shorter than individual books. I'm sure the format has been done before, but I couldn't tell you where.

Anyway, I have no idea what to do now. Do I go back and edit, or do I keep pushing forward? I feel like I'm out of ideas again, and I have no idea if what I've written is even worth continuing to pursue.

What is your estimated timeline on release?

Do you want to release them all in a consistent schedule? If so, you may want to keep writing until you'll have some backlog to go through before they all make it you, that way you can write new episodes while sitting on 1-2 old ones.

Once you have 3 written, then you can go back and edit the first (They may be good for continuity as well--you'll know where things are going/have gone much better than estimating. This way you don't remove a line that becomes essential later, or unintentionally include lines that build to things that never have a payoff).

But if you don't care about release schedule and just want to get something out there, I'd say edit it first and put it out ASAP.

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

What is your estimated timeline on release?

Do you want to release them all in a consistent schedule? If so, you may want to keep writing until you'll have some backlog to go through before they all make it you, that way you can write new episodes while sitting on 1-2 old ones.

Once you have 3 written, then you can go back and edit the first (They may be good for continuity as well--you'll know where things are going/have gone much better than estimating. This way you don't remove a line that becomes essential later, or unintentionally include lines that build to things that never have a payoff).

But if you don't care about release schedule and just want to get something out there, I'd say edit it first and put it out ASAP.

Well the idea would be to release the whole "season" at once as one book. I don't think I'm reliable enough to regularly put out individual episodes.

But... man, I'm reading back over what I've written, and it all seems pretty bad. I don't know if it's the inner critic in me or if it really is bad, but I'm afraid to share it with anyone lest they confirm my fear that it's just not good.

 

[Brashnir]

No, that's absolutely a good point! I was only going for a trilogy because that's basically standard for works of fantasy, but it might be better for two books or perhaps more than three.

The concept I've been working on mostly deals with the political intrigue of three nations. I envision the story really taking off after the king of the least powerful kingdom is killed, and the first book follows his wife, his son, and his son's betrothed before and after the assassination.

War breaks out near the end of the first book, and much of the second book deals with the lords and magnates of one nation dealing with an invasion by the two other kingdoms.

There would probably be six or seven third-person point-of-view characters in each book, with certain POVs dying along the way and others being picked up. I have a very clear vision for the first half of the second book, but not much beyond that.

Write an outline.

I'm not sure what your structure is like, but since I'm working currently using three-act structure, I'd make an outline for books 2 and 3 which breaks down all of the major plot threads for each future act. Thinking by acts rather than chapters or just free-wheeling helps avoid a messy narrative.

If you want to make a trilogy, and not simply three consecutive books (which is not the same thing), it's important to think of the structure of the entire story early on. The reason there are "dark middle chapters" is that the middle book of a trilogy represents the second act of the overall story, even though each book may contain its own multiple-act structure.

By writing (and committing) to later developments in broad strokes, you can do a lot of set-up now which will avoid missteps later. These descriptions don't need details and names for people and places you haven't written about yet, but they should summarize the big stuff. They should be dense and clinical with no flowery or conversational language. If (when) you think of more things to add to them later, this will keep the outline from becoming pages and pages of garbage to sift through to find the points when you need them.

The type of story you're writing is generally filled to the brim with details, details, details. It really helps when working on stories like that to have a strong backbone of the story to fall back on. An outline will provide that. You might even find that the process of outlining the future gives you a lot of great ideas for the part of the story you're working on now.

 

[Zakalwe]

Well the idea would be to release the whole "season" at once as one book. I don't think I'm reliable enough to regularly put out individual episodes.

But... man, I'm reading back over what I've written, and it all seems pretty bad. I don't know if it's the inner critic in me or if it really is bad, but I'm afraid to share it with anyone lest they confirm my fear that it's just not good.

Get over that fear. Break up with it and move on. Keep yourself busy and meet new emotions. You'll always have a place in your heart for it, but you'll find you consider it less and less. It will get easier, I promise.

People are going to tell you there are things wrong with your work. Sometimes it will be harsh, sometimes it will be gentle, but you will be told.

You won't always agree with what you're told, and sometimes it might sting a little, but it will definitely help you look at your own work more in a more constructively critical way.

(This is assuming the feedback is constructive itself, of course.)

This is why I'm always so eager for feedback, and why HP's response on the previous page is so invaluable. Even where I disagree with the suggestions it's made me think of new ways I could be happier with the piece.

(Thanks again HP, will respond later as I said.)

And yeh. I think you'd be insane to try to write each episode as you release them, but that's because I'd be terrified of running out of steam or blocking up and forcing something terrible just to meet a deadline. I get a panic in my gut just thinking about it. Ugh.

Bit late getting to this, but...

Never too late!

Firstly: Thanks loads, this is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for.

I would add a bit more clarity here. It feels disconnected. What is "it" that the Soldier is feeling?

"The machine hummed softly with the familiar sounds of an operational life support, but the Solider couldn't shake ________. The emptiness of the vessel was overbearing, as if the infinity of space had compressed itself inside."

^With just this sentence I'd say he couldn't shake a growing sense of unease, or foreboding, or something nervous, but then the following paragraph (below) makes him sound excited.

Again, I'm not sure what "it" is going from the initial paragraphs. You might be going for mystery or trying the tease the reader along, but I think it's a bit confusing.

Damn it... I don't like starting by rejecting your critisism, but this one I don't agree with.

The use of "it" is purposeful. I really like how it reads, how short and sharp it is. I think the next line explains exactly what the Soldier is feeling, so I really think that part is just preference more than anything.

When I explain about the Soldier's excitement and lust for war, I follow it with "he still couldn't shake it", showing how powerful this sense of unease is to override that kind of conditioning.

Reading it back now I'm happy with this part.

I also like the ending line of this section ("This was what he'd bee grown for"). It says a lot with one sentence and now I have practically a whole back story on this character just from that.

Thanks, that's what I was aiming for.

You're stringing together full sentences with a comma that shouldn't be. Break them up. Something my editor told me when flaying my book was to keep things short and clear. Having long, complicated sentences is tempting, but they bog down action and can muddy things. I think there's a place for those, but here I'd divvy this to:

"They'd breached the hull on the port side near the aft. Given the uncertainty of the power couplings(just riffing here. Anything could go here or you could just leave it at "Operations..."), Operations had advised against a direct airlock dock. The risk of a hull breach had pleased the Solider. He could feel his blood beginning to stir."

Agree with the breaking up, not the addition. Again, I like how short and sharp the descriptions are, but switching them to single sentences definitely enhances that.

Think you need to add in a bit or connect the first two sentences.

"But now that he was here, in the coils of this enemy machine, in the empty space between worlds... What was this fear?"

or

"But now, in the coils of this enemy machine, in the empty space between worlds... what was this fear?"

I like the second one. It make it seem like a thought trailing off which would definitely help distinguish it as inner dialogue.

The first one is fine too, but the sentence doesn't read as sharp.

I know you said the italicized were his inner thoughts, but the first line still reads like part of the overall perspective. If you still wanted to keep some emphasis maybe try this?:

Underlined little tweaks.

This breaks it up too much I think. For example: the line "his feet drummed as his head marched forward" is not something I'd want to change. I think that line contains itself perfectly, it has a short sharp rhythm to it: head drums, feet march. Adding "with adrenaline" seems a bit redundant, the line explains itself without it.

I agree with you that this part as a whole needs something to distinguish itself as thoughts, but maybe that's more to do with keeping the rules I set to show thoughts consitent throughout the piece?

Ahh, again, this is one of those times where I really, really like the block of text itself, but it needs something to fit in with the rest. Cutting into it would be extremely difficult. Maybe I'm just too close to it to see, at this point I'm glad I won't be working on this piece any more...

^Tweak and took off the italics here because again, doesn't really seem like an inner thought.

Well, and I think this may be part of the problem, they're not inner thoughts as such. They're emphasis points that show us just how uneasy the soldier is, just how much this is affecting him. They like references to inner thoughts. We don't actualy get any direct dialgoue or thoughts, we just get references to those. It's the detached style I was going for.

There are only three parts that do this:

Yet he still couldn't shake it.
But now, in the coils...
So why couldn't he shake it?

I was experimenting, and it doesn't seem like it was completely successful. Do you get what I was going for? Does it make sense?

Again, I'm glad I'm leaving this now. The feeback on this part will be extremely helpful if I try it again though.

"Scattered" makes it seem a bit messy for a space ship (which are generally very orderly in lore), unless this was intentional?

Your'e right, scattered doesn't fit at all. Good feedback for future descriptions, will try to be more precise. Thank you!

Extra space and maybe just change up the words or order? Having repeats always stands out to me. No big deal, though.

I'm usually only really bothered by adjectives repeating themselves, I think you can use repetion sometimes to good effect. The repetition was deliberate, trying to add emphasis. I'm not sure if it worked for others but I like how it reads.

Tweak and more comma splices.

Agree with all of that, your changes just make the paragraph better.

Left alone he could be holding one of his hands, or the sexy Tech's hands, or... ^_-

Heh. I think that was a typo, if it was deliberate hopefully my brain has a flag there now.

Anyway, I liked it. I enjoyed the detached style, and it suits your character nicely. I kept thinking of Aliens/The Forever War when I was reading it. Everything was generally clear and I could picture where they were and what they were about. It wouldn't hurt to throw in a little bit more description of the ship's layout/appearance. You've presented the ship as an enemy vessel, and describing it a bit more might give some color to your enemy or at least what sets this enemy apart from your character/his side. The little touches of the Soldier's culture (weapons, mantra, etc.) were just right. You didn't try to dump an entire civilization/back story on me, but teased integral bits here and there, which I appreciated.

Thank you so much. Everything you wrote was incredibly helpful, even the suggestions I didn't agree with have made me think about how I could improve the sections they reference or how I could apply techniques in the future.

I think my main problem with this piece, and why I'm resistent to suggestions that add to or change descriptions, is that I was aiming for something very specific. That detached style, and while I think I managed to get that across with each individual part, as a whole it reads a little too barren. there's not enough to bring it to life, but adding more would ruin the style of each individual part...

If I were to work on this I think the best bet would be to start over and re-write it with the critisms in mind and try to bring it to life a little more, I don't think chipping away at what I have here would do any good, it would just get more and more disjointed.

Which is why I'll definitely leave it, I don't have any desire to return to the subject anyway. It's all invaluable feedback that will help me improve my future work.

If I can ever return the favour somehow please ask.

 

[Zakalwe]

Oops, didn't mean to double post here. Soz.

 

[Cyan]

Just as a general rule, I think it's better not to respond to criticism, especially in specifics and especially if you disagree with parts of it. It's just always going to come off as argumentative even when that isn't at all your intent. Obviously it's fine to disregard a critique when the person misunderstood what you were trying to do or when you just disagree with their suggestions, but it's usually better to keep that to yourself.

The only exceptions I would make are for thanking the person for their critique (always ok), or for requesting clarification on something they've said. Or for asking if making a particular change or clarification would resolve their issue with something--though you need to be careful with this one, and make sure it's coming from a place of wanting to work out the problem rather than wanting to excuse or explain. (e.g. The critique is "I'm confused as to why the girl wanted to fight the sheriff at the end." A good response might be "if I made it more clear in paragraph four that the man who killed her father was the one wearing the sheriff's badge, would that resolve your confusion?" as opposed to "oh, well that was because the sheriff killed her father." Doing it this way both avoids the appearance of defensiveness and allows for further explanation when you haven't fully grasped the problem a critiquer is getting at.)

Anyway. These rules are far more important when you're part of a regular critique group than when you're getting one-off critiques online, but I think the principle is useful.

 

[Zakalwe]

Just as a general rule, I think it's better not to respond to criticism, especially in specifics and especially if you disagree with parts of it. It's just always going to come off as argumentative even when that isn't at all your intent. Obviously it's fine to disregard a critique when the person misunderstood what you were trying to do or when you just disagree with their suggestions, but it's usually better to keep that to yourself.

The only exceptions I would make are for thanking the person for their critique (always ok), or for requesting clarification on something they've said. Or for asking if making a particular change or clarification would resolve their issue with something--though you need to be careful with this one, and make sure it's coming from a place of wanting to work out the problem rather than wanting to excuse or explain. (e.g. The critique is "I'm confused as to why the girl wanted to fight the sheriff at the end." A good response might be "if I made it more clear in paragraph four that the man who killed her father was the one wearing the sheriff's badge, would that resolve your confusion?" as opposed to "oh, well that was because the sheriff killed her father." Doing it this way both avoids the appearance of defensiveness and allows for further explanation when you haven't fully grasped the problem a critiquer is getting at.)

Anyway. These rules are far more important when you're part of a regular critique group than when you're getting one-off critiques online, but I think the principle is useful.

Fair enough, I just wanted HP to understand why I chose to to write certain parts the way I did and which parts I felt secure about. I thought that might give her an idea of what I was attempting with the style of writing and why adding to the descriptions too much would detract from that. Which is why I said I think it would be best to write it over, that way I could address the issues she raises without trying to rework sentences and making the style get all jumbled.

Apologies if it came across as argumentative, it wasn't meant to be.

 

[timetokill]

Fair enough, I just wanted HP to understand why I chose to to write certain parts the way I did and which parts I felt secure about. I thought that might give her an idea of what I was attempting with the style of writing and why adding to the descriptions too much would detract from that. Which is why I said I think it would be best to write it over, that way I could address the issues she raises without trying to rework sentences and making the style get all jumbled.

Apologies if it came across as argumentative, it wasn't meant to be.

Pfft. Now you're getting all defensive and argumentative in reaction to Cyan's criticism of your reaction to criticism.

Just tell Cyan "thanks" and let it go, dude.

Spoiler

/joking

 

[Cyan]

Pfft. Now you're getting all defensive and argumentative in reaction to Cyan's criticism of your reaction to criticism.

Just tell Cyan "thanks" and let it go, dude.

Spoiler

/joking

How many meta-levels can we take this?

 

[Zakalwe]

How many meta-levels can we take this?

It's in keeping with this week's writing challenge too.

-

Sorry Cyan, HP. Seems I do have a bit to learn about etiquette here. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Just as a general rule, I think it's better not to respond to criticism, especially in specifics and especially if you disagree with parts of it. It's just always going to come off as argumentative even when that isn't at all your intent. Obviously it's fine to disregard a critique when the person misunderstood what you were trying to do or when you just disagree with their suggestions, but it's usually better to keep that to yourself.

The only exceptions I would make are for thanking the person for their critique (always ok), or for requesting clarification on something they've said. Or for asking if making a particular change or clarification would resolve their issue with something--though you need to be careful with this one, and make sure it's coming from a place of wanting to work out the problem rather than wanting to excuse or explain. (e.g. The critique is "I'm confused as to why the girl wanted to fight the sheriff at the end." A good response might be "if I made it more clear in paragraph four that the man who killed her father was the one wearing the sheriff's badge, would that resolve your confusion?" as opposed to "oh, well that was because the sheriff killed her father." Doing it this way both avoids the appearance of defensiveness and allows for further explanation when you haven't fully grasped the problem a critiquer is getting at.)

Anyway. These rules are far more important when you're part of a regular critique group than when you're getting one-off critiques online, but I think the principle is useful.

This is all great advice. Your sheriff example is perfect, and something I mess up quite a lot when responding to criticism.

 

[H.Protagonist]

Never too late!

Firstly: Thanks loads, this is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for.



Damn it... I don't like starting by rejecting your critisism, but this one I don't agree with.

The use of "it" is purposeful. I really like how it reads, how short and sharp it is. I think the next line explains exactly what the Soldier is feeling, so I really think that part is just preference more than anything.

When I explain about the Soldier's excitement and lust for war, I follow it with "he still couldn't shake it", showing how powerful this sense of unease is to override that kind of conditioning.

Reading it back now I'm happy with this part.

Haha. That's fine. It's just an observation, and my word certainly isn't the authority. However, my editor hit me with this a lot and it used to drive me crazy (as everything seemed REALLY clear to me) and though I disagreed I did have to stop and wonder why she was finding it confusing or unclear. In the end, the person I'm trying to communicate with isn't myself but the reader, and if the reader (my editor) didn't get what I was trying to say then maybe there was something I could do to make it clearer. If you feel it's clear enough and like the way it sounds, you definitely don't need to change anything. The off reading might be particular to me since P44 read it the way you wanted (and it had been my initial take as well), but it's just food for thought for future stuff.

Thanks, that's what I was aiming for.



Agree with the breaking up, not the addition. Again, I like how short and sharp the descriptions are, but switching them to single sentences definitely enhances that.

Short and sweet does seem very soldierly. ^_^

This breaks it up too much I think. For example: the line "his feet drummed as his head marched forward" is not something I'd want to change. I think that line contains itself perfectly, it has a short sharp rhythm to it: head drums, feet march. Adding "with adrenaline" seems a bit redundant, the line explains itself without it.

Yeah. Probably a result of how much flogging I took for my book that I even suggested it. I had a lot of lines that I liked the cadence of too, but my editor felt the need to super define everything. A difference of book type, I think. They were hammering mine into a light novel for light reading which means everything has to be almost ham-fistedly clear sometimes.

I agree with you that this part as a whole needs something to distinguish itself as thoughts, but maybe that's more to do with keeping the rules I set to show thoughts consitent throughout the piece?

Probably the case. A tough one since you're already in his head, so to speak.

Heh. I think that was a typo, if it was deliberate hopefully my brain has a flag there now.

Uh huh. Be kind of interesting if they were holding hands, though.

Thank you so much. Everything you wrote was incredibly helpful, even the suggestions I didn't agree with have made me think about how I could improve the sections they reference or how I could apply techniques in the future.

I think my main problem with this piece, and why I'm resistent to suggestions that add to or change descriptions, is that I was aiming for something very specific. That detached style, and while I think I managed to get that across with each individual part, as a whole it reads a little too barren. there's not enough to bring it to life, but adding more would ruin the style of each individual part...

If I were to work on this I think the best bet would be to start over and re-write it with the critisms in mind and try to bring it to life a little more, I don't think chipping away at what I have here would do any good, it would just get more and more disjointed.

Which is why I'll definitely leave it, I don't have any desire to return to the subject anyway. It's all invaluable feedback that will help me improve my future work.

If I can ever return the favour somehow please ask.

No prob. Glad I could help a bit. As I said be fore, I thought the overall was just fine. Don't really think there's much to add, and nothing I'd say you absolutely need to add. Just an exercise in writing. ^_^

Just as a general rule, I think it's better not to respond to criticism, especially in specifics and especially if you disagree with parts of it. It's just always going to come off as argumentative even when that isn't at all your intent. Obviously it's fine to disregard a critique when the person misunderstood what you were trying to do or when you just disagree with their suggestions, but it's usually better to keep that to yourself.

The only exceptions I would make are for thanking the person for their critique (always ok), or for requesting clarification on something they've said. Or for asking if making a particular change or clarification would resolve their issue with something--though you need to be careful with this one, and make sure it's coming from a place of wanting to work out the problem rather than wanting to excuse or explain. (e.g. The critique is "I'm confused as to why the girl wanted to fight the sheriff at the end." A good response might be "if I made it more clear in paragraph four that the man who killed her father was the one wearing the sheriff's badge, would that resolve your confusion?" as opposed to "oh, well that was because the sheriff killed her father." Doing it this way both avoids the appearance of defensiveness and allows for further explanation when you haven't fully grasped the problem a critiquer is getting at.)

Anyway. These rules are far more important when you're part of a regular critique group than when you're getting one-off critiques online, but I think the principle is useful.

I could have used this advice months ago. -_- The initial run under the red pen was a hard pill to swallow.

 

[timetokill]

Not picking on anybody, but this Onion article posted today was too perfect and relevant to our criticism discussion to not share:

I’m Always Open To Feedback That I Can Get Defensive About And Ultimately Ignore

 

[Zakalwe]

No prob. Glad I could help a bit. As I said be fore, I thought the overall was just fine. Don't really think there's much to add, and nothing I'd say you absolutely need to add. Just an exercise in writing. ^_^

You helped loads.

I worded my response badly and didn't get across what I meant at all, but I'm not masochistic enough to discuss it further. Noted for next time.

Not picking on anybody, but this Onion article posted today was too perfect and relevant to our criticism discussion to not share:

I’m Always Open To Feedback That I Can Get Defensive About And Ultimately Ignore

I do get a slight pang. I think everyone does no matter how practised. You just get better at responding to it.

This is all good practise.

 

[Mike M]

I can understand the mindset of people who get defensive about their writing, but I don't share it. I'm an incredibly harsh critic of my own writing and I'm always receptive to ways to improve it.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

I can understand the mindset of people who get defensive about their writing, but I don't share it. I'm an incredibly harsh critic of my own writing and I'm always receptive to ways to improve it.

Haha, same. I actually kinda get pissed when people just give me compliments. I have a hard time believing people when they say my stuff is good. I know, when it's finished or whatever, but still compliments about my writing generally annoy me.

 

[Nappuccino]

Haha, same. I actually kinda get pissed when people just give me compliments. I have a hard time believing people when they say my stuff is good. I know, when it's finished or whatever, but still compliments about my writing generally annoy me.

Yep! I like to respond to critics as well, so they know their time was respected. I might not always agree with their suggestions, but I'm always thankful and try to keep feedback in account--if 10 people say the same thing, I'll be more likely to change it, even if I did something intentionally.

 

[Xtyle]

Hi
I posted this in OT and was suggested to post it here.

I have posted my project on neogaf before so some of you may have seen it. It's at a point I really need a good writer. This is a collaborative project. It's not going to be dialogue heavy, more mood writing, etc. I am not necessary looking for amazing writer (though that helps) but more importantly, someone with passion to do this kind of thing and can collaborate. From my blog, you should see that I have a huge passion for doing this project and making it happen. Goal is to get it to kickstarter and go from there.

Here's the project. Mainly there you can see design works. It's a dark themed story and not long - movie length is good.
http://www.comicdemise.blogspot.com/

I do have a lot of the back stories worked out and what they characters do in the story. But obviously a real writer can polish that better (as I am just an artist with ideas). And I am willing to share all that but it is really not easily share-able in this forum or even in the blog.

But in short, the dark theme basically means there is definitely violence, sex, and so on...it has demons (though not called demons in the story) and so on...but all this in a logical manner, not just forced in. The story in my mind is concentrated on a woman sacrificing her self fighting the demons for the greater good...it has a lot more subplots than that but that's the gist of it.

I have put off on the project for a few months now due to other work but I am willing to share the above information in detail with anyone interested...I will just have to take a day or 2 to prepare the files and email them.


If you know any other place I should make a post at for writers, please let me know. Thanks!

original post here http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=125400989#post125400989

 

[Relix]

H

I like the art. The theme is something I can work with.

Are you planning on serializing this? Sell it online? webcomic?

I mean, I am busy with stuff and I am writing my own stuff, but since the theme is something I find appealing. I read the blog and most things sound very generic, and I think it'd be great if something different could be found.

Also, from 1 to 10... how dark?

I am interested as a side-project I could work on. I liked the art ;-)

 

[H.Protagonist]

I can understand the mindset of people who get defensive about their writing, but I don't share it. I'm an incredibly harsh critic of my own writing and I'm always receptive to ways to improve it.

Well, it's not so black and white as you're open or closed to criticism. I think it's understandable to be frustrated or protective of your writing when you think you've been very clear and/or intended it a certain way. It's a bad approach to overall feedback, certainly, but I can empathize. It just becomes unproductive when you're unwilling to at least acknowledge that feedback and stubbornly insist you're right.



On on a more general publishing subject, for those that have been published or self-published, have you found your price point to be beneficial or detrimental to your sales? For unknown authors just starting out, it seems the norm to price your book around $3.99 or so and I'm wondering if that's helped (big value for small money) or hurt the book (as some people view lower prices as a sign that it's not quality somehow).

Would love anyone's experience. I didn't set my book's price and I'm a bit nervous it might be a tough sell...

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Alright, second countdown sale is over and the results are in! 6 sales! That's 6 times as many as the last countdown deal, and I didn't spend any money on advertising this time like I did then.

Not amazing or even that good, but I'd like to think I'm slowly getting a following. Those 2 positive reviews on Goodreads might be helping.

On on a more general publishing subject, for those that have been published or self-published, have you found your price point to be beneficial or detrimental to your sales? For unknown authors just starting out, it seems the norm to price your book around $3.99 or so and I'm wondering if that's helped (big value for small money) or hurt the book (as some people view lower prices as a sign that it's not quality somehow).

Would love anyone's experience. I didn't set my book's price and I'm a bit nervous it might be a tough sell...

For ebooks, I believe $2.99 is actually the standard unless your book is long (like 100k+ words). Don't quote me on that, though. Not sure how much of a difference it makes for those just starting out. Mine at $2.99 hasn't exactly lit up any charts.

Edit: Oh wait, are you still in Australia? No idea on the pricing then.

 

[toddhunter]

Edit: Oh wait, are you still in Australia? No idea on the pricing then.

In Australia it is $2.99 minimum for Amazon (up to $9.99) which is kind of annoying.

I don't think the actual price matters that much when starting out. From my experience random sales don't really happen, since the odds of somebody finding your book in the first place and then actually paying for it are extremely low.

On the other hand, people who know of it (through marketing/word of mouth or whatever) are probably not going to worry about a couple of dollars either way.

 

[H.Protagonist]

Alright, second countdown sale is over and the results are in! 6 sales! That's 6 times as many as the last countdown deal, and I didn't spend any money on advertising this time like I did then.

Not amazing or even that good, but I'd like to think I'm slowly getting a following. Those 2 positive reviews on Goodreads might be helping.



For ebooks, I believe $2.99 is actually the standard unless your book is long (like 100k+ words). Don't quote me on that, though. Not sure how much of a difference it makes for those just starting out. Mine at $2.99 hasn't exactly lit up any charts.

Edit: Oh wait, are you still in Australia? No idea on the pricing then.

My pub is in the US, so they're pricing with that in mind.

$3.99 was the average from what indie novels I'd seen online, but according to a Smashwords survey (2013) the average price is $2.99. But, it also notes that, "One surprising find from the Smashwords survey is that, on average, $3.99 books sell more units than $2.99 books."

Interesting.

In value terms, it's weird how looking at $2.99 or $3.99 you can think, I guess I'm willing to pay that much for an unknown novel, and that seems almost fair, but the price of say, a good beer, is around $6-8. Is your book or my book worth a beer? I think so! But $6-8 seems like a lot for a newbie book, right? Tough.

Happy to hear you're building up some momentum, though. Keep it going!

In Australia it is $2.99 minimum for Amazon (up to $9.99) which is kind of annoying.

I don't think the actual price matters that much when starting out. From my experience random sales don't really happen, since the odds of somebody finding your book in the first place and then actually paying for it are extremely low.

On the other hand, people who know of it (through marketing/word of mouth or whatever) are probably not going to worry about a couple of dollars either way.

What do you think is a good price? And what's the highest you'd pay for an indie book from a non-family member/non-friend?

 

[toddhunter]

What do you think is a good price? And what's the highest you'd pay for an indie book from a non-family member/non-friend?

To be honest, if I didn't know the author or the book, I don't think I'd pay anything. This is simply because I have a long list of books I would already like to buy... and no time to read them anyway.

Now if I knew the author or knew about the book? (not necessarily a friend or whatever) I'd be happy to pay the full price and wouldn't think much about it.

Not to suck up or anything, but if I use Dead Endings as an example, I'll be happy to pay the $8, because I know it is good and has been properly edited and all those other things.

I don't really think you would get that knowledge from a random book and maybe the time commitment to find out is too high? What I mean is you might drop a $1 for a game on steam just to increase the library or get some instant idea if it is worth playing or not. With a book you need to sit down and maybe read for an hour or two and collecting is meaningless given how many books you could get for nothing. That smashwords stat might suggest otherwise, but they also carry a heck of a lot of ... erotic fiction. So that market might roll a little differently.

Sorry, that all seems like pretty random thoughts and I have no idea if anybody else feels that way.

 

[H.Protagonist]

To be honest, if I didn't know the author or the book, I don't think I'd pay anything. This is simply because I have a long list of books I would already like to buy... and no time to read them anyway.

Now if I knew the author or knew about the book? (not necessarily a friend or whatever) I'd be happy to pay the full price and wouldn't think much about it.

Not to suck up or anything, but if I use Dead Endings as an example, I'll be happy to pay the $8, because I know it is good and has been properly edited and all those other things.

I don't really think you would get that knowledge from a random book and maybe the time commitment to find out is too high? What I mean is you might drop a $1 for a game on steam just to increase the library or get some instant idea if it is worth playing or not. With a book you need to sit down and maybe read for an hour or two and collecting is meaningless given how many books you could get for nothing. That smashwords stat might suggest otherwise, but they also carry a heck of a lot of ... erotic fiction. So that market might roll a little differently.

Sorry, that all seems like pretty random thoughts and I have no idea if anybody else feels that way.

No, no. Makes sense. The buy in investment for a book does seem pretty high as far as entertainment goes, especially if you don't know quite what you'll be getting. It's hard to gauge the quality or style of the contents if you're just browsing and casually interested. I usually rely on referrals, reviews (which you can't get if nobody reads it and many won't buy without one...) or if they have a long excerpt free, but even then that's too high of a time investment for some people. Games you can kind of pick up and go, but leaving a book unfinished would haunt me in my sleep*. I can totally see how a book backlog would be incredibly daunting.

I'm also with you on purchasing style. Knowing the author makes me pretty inclined to support it even if I don't have a chance to read it immediately, and hearing a bit about it before I window shop usually guarantees I'll check out the excerpt at least. I never see throwing money at books as a waste*.

For the smashwords stat, I think they did note that the average #s for self-published authors is 50-150ish...? Don't quite recall, but getting past even 10 sales (that aren't family or friends) seems incredibly difficult. Maybe their numbers are all erotica.

Cheers for the nice words on Dead Endings. <3 The ladies at Sparkler have really worked it over, so I hope it's up to light novel snuff, and the art certainly adds great value to it. There will also be two bonus stories included (one all new), but I do worry about how (or if) it'll perform at all because it's such a high price point at $8. If I do sell more than 10 copies, I think I'll have you to thank for that chapter one review of yours back when it first released. They said they got a notable uptick in eyeballs on it after that, and those numbers stayed through to the end. I really appreciate it. Let me know if I can return the favor.


*(except for

Spoiler

Best Served Cold by Joe Abercrombie

)

 

[AngmarsKing701]

My pub is in the US, so they're pricing with that in mind.

$3.99 was the average from what indie novels I'd seen online, but according to a Smashwords survey (2013) the average price is $2.99. But, it also notes that, "One surprising find from the Smashwords survey is that, on average, $3.99 books sell more units than $2.99 books."

Interesting.

In value terms, it's weird how looking at $2.99 or $3.99 you can think, I guess I'm willing to pay that much for an unknown novel, and that seems almost fair, but the price of say, a good beer, is around $6-8. Is your book or my book worth a beer? I think so! But $6-8 seems like a lot for a newbie book, right? Tough.

Happy to hear you're building up some momentum, though. Keep it going!




What do you think is a good price? And what's the highest you'd pay for an indie book from a non-family member/non-friend?

My Kindle version is priced at $3.99 while my CreateSpace paperback is $11+ (price varies on Amazon).

Going with KDP I've done a sale for $1.99 and one for $0.99. I've probably sold around 60 copies so far. I think maybe 10 of those are the CS version.

I sold 11 in the latest $0.99 campaign and probably about that number in the $1.99 campaign. So roughly half of what I've sold so far (in the 5 months the book has been available) has been at the $3.99 price point. I sometimes wonder whether I should permanently reduce the cost to $2.99 but I haven't done it.


Now, for a question of my own: advertising. I'm pretty much doing the free thing right now: tweeting, Facebook page, blogging. I see ads all the time on Twitter saying how I can reach thousands of readers if I'll just pony up $100 so I figure those are scams.

I want to do the following this fall:
- Get to the two libraries I have within a 10 minute drive with a copy of my book and donate them. Talk with the librarian there and see if there's a way to advertise in the window that I'm a local author, etc.

- Drop by a couple of indie bookstores to see if they'd support me doing a signing. The problem there, I think, is that my CS version isn't orderable by bookstores (I think). There was some option in the pricing about allowing ordering by libraries and bookstores and it added $7 to the price of the book, so I unchecked it.

What else can I be doing?
Are there other forums you all frequent to get the word out about your work?
Are there any of these paid advertising sites where you actually get your return on investment?

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

If you put them on sale below 2.99, you get only 30% royalties though, correct?

that's the reason everything is priced at 2.99: the 70% royalties versus 30% at less than 2.99.

Also: I couldn't even buy a burger at McDonalds with the return of the 70% royalty, so I would easily price a complete novel at more than 5 bucks.

Short stories are a different matter, but there's no point in trying to beat the rat race though.

 

[Relix]

What's the consensus on shifting POV mid-chapter? Acceptable or frowned upon? Of course I am marking each change of POV with several asterisks.

Also, reached 55K words. Slowly getting into the end game.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

What's the consensus on shifting POV mid-chapter? Acceptable or frowned upon? Of course I am marking each change of POV with several asterisks.

Also, reached 55K words. Slowly getting into the end game.

Think that's pretty common. In the stuff I've read, it's usually marked by an extra paragraph break rather than asterisks. Don't know what the actual rule is, though.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Story was kinda falling apart as I wrote it more and more, came up with a better idea cannibalizing the good parts into the other story if they fit...discarding the rest (and by discarding I mean leaving them in an unfinished word doc)

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Oh yay, got another 4 star review on Goodreads. At the very least, it seems the giveaway winners are happy.

 

[fredrancour]

What's the consensus on shifting POV mid-chapter? Acceptable or frowned upon? Of course I am marking each change of POV with several asterisks.

Also, reached 55K words. Slowly getting into the end game.

I think it's much more common to switch mid chapter than to use the song of ice and fire style one chapter is one character strict structure

 

[Relix]

I think it's much more common to switch mid chapter than to use the song of ice and fire style one chapter is one character strict structure

Think that's pretty common. In the stuff I've read, it's usually marked by an extra paragraph break rather than asterisks. Don't know what the actual rule is, though.

Sounds perfect. I am in a scene that requires lots of switching back and forth so I was worried I was doing something "wrong"

 

[fredrancour]

Sounds perfect. I am in a scene that requires lots of switching back and forth so I was worried I was doing something "wrong"

Nothing inherently wrong about it. Be careful not to violate pov though. It seems like very rapids switches might make it easier to mess up character voice, or to give characters super-convenient information they shouldn't have on accident.

 

[Delio]

I hate having like a billion ideas in my head ;_;

 

[The Artful Dodger]

I hate having like a billion ideas in my head ;_;

Just put them all in an empty doc, and then pick one and ruthlessly pursue it.

 

[Delio]

Just put them all in an empty doc, and then pick one and ruthlessly pursue it.

Problem is one im already working on and the other is like jumping at me. The suffering.

 

[AngmarsKing701]

Problem is one im already working on and the other is like jumping at me. The suffering.

Feeling the same at the moment

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Problem is one im already working on and the other is like jumping at me. The suffering.

Ha, I got no room to talk. I just jumped ideas.

 

[H.Protagonist]

My Kindle version is priced at $3.99 while my CreateSpace paperback is $11+ (price varies on Amazon).

Going with KDP I've done a sale for $1.99 and one for $0.99. I've probably sold around 60 copies so far. I think maybe 10 of those are the CS version.

I sold 11 in the latest $0.99 campaign and probably about that number in the $1.99 campaign. So roughly half of what I've sold so far (in the 5 months the book has been available) has been at the $3.99 price point. I sometimes wonder whether I should permanently reduce the cost to $2.99 but I haven't done it.


Now, for a question of my own: advertising. I'm pretty much doing the free thing right now: tweeting, Facebook page, blogging. I see ads all the time on Twitter saying how I can reach thousands of readers if I'll just pony up $100 so I figure those are scams.

I want to do the following this fall:
- Get to the two libraries I have within a 10 minute drive with a copy of my book and donate them. Talk with the librarian there and see if there's a way to advertise in the window that I'm a local author, etc.

- Drop by a couple of indie bookstores to see if they'd support me doing a signing. The problem there, I think, is that my CS version isn't orderable by bookstores (I think). There was some option in the pricing about allowing ordering by libraries and bookstores and it added $7 to the price of the book, so I unchecked it.

What else can I be doing?
Are there other forums you all frequent to get the word out about your work?
Are there any of these paid advertising sites where you actually get your return on investment?

Hmmm... I still think $3.99 is a fair price point, especially if you've got a good-sized book (not a novella). It gives you more flexibility for sales, but if $2.99 is getting the most tags, I can't argue with that. It's also interesting that the CS version isn't smoking the digital one. People keep asking me if mine'll be in print, so it feels like there's a strong preference there. Anyway, thanks for the info.

For advertising, I leave most of that to the pub, but I have gotten several pre-orders when pushing it on twitter. Having the pre-order link/info pinned and the background images book-related has kept it visible. I like the library idea and working with local shops to carry the book, but the stores not being able to order sounds problematic.

For other ideas, I've seen a lot of side ad bars for books and comics lately on writing sites, blogs, etc., so maybe look into having one designed and reserving some space? You could also send out free review copies to popular writing/sci-fi/fantasy blogs and snag advertising space there.

And on the twitter side, make a list of popular sci-fi/book related twitterers and get into chats and ask if they might consider your book for review or a glance. If you also include an image banner for your book they might give you mini reviews and or a mention with the banner. This one's free and even a mini-twitter review can get you major exposure if someone with a lot of sci-fi loving followers takes an interest.

Problem is one im already working on and the other is like jumping at me. The suffering.

Sounds like you're really distracted. Maybe you need to mock up a concrete outline of deadline goals that lets you dabble in the one nipping at your imagination's heels, but only after making hard progress on the one you're actually trying to finish?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I hate having like a billion ideas in my head ;_;

Tell me about it. I have 326 story synopses in a document. I'd like to get to all of them eventually, but that's kind of unfeasible when I'm constantly adding more developments to them rather than whatever I'm currently working on.

 

[Delio]

Sounds like you're really distracted. Maybe you need to mock up a concrete outline of deadline goals that lets you dabble in the one nipping at your imagination's heels, but only after making hard progress on the one you're actually trying to finish?

Yeah the other one is really distracting me. I think I will take your suggestion and make a outline. Something to get me going.

 

[Timu]

I'm thinking about doing a novel a year for National Writing Month from now to 2020, I already have a novel planned for next year, 2016 and 2017 as well. Also all novels after the 2015 one will just have a single novel in their series so no sequels.

 

[H.Protagonist]

Yeah the other one is really distracting me. I think I will take your suggestion and make a outline. Something to get me going.

I think just having a framework in mind will help reel in the distracted/all-over-the-place feeling. Maybe you'll even be able to harness that enthusiasm for the secondary idea and apply some of it to the main project. Good luck~

I'm thinking about doing a novel a year for National Writing Month from now to 2020, I already have a novel planned for next year, 2016 and 2017 as well. Also all novels after the 2015 one will just have a single novel in their series so no sequels.

Just reading this made me feel tired. Where do you get the energy to do such a thing...?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Proofread of second novel complete!

While it could still use some refining, I'm honestly really proud of myself for once. Maybe that's just unfounded confidence, but I really feel like I accomplished something here. At the very least, being satisfied with your own writing is a nice feeling.

Now to find some beta readers and pray they don't hate it.

 

[Timu]

Just reading this made me feel tired. Where do you get the energy to do such a thing...?

Lots of planning in advance plus my love for writing.=p