outunderthestars
Banned
joke post?
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
There is no Technical Reason for No PS1/2 BC on PS4
- Thread starter Occam
- Start date
joke post?
Collateral22
Member
I'm sorry but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You payed all that money to play PS2 games? You know PS2s are pretty cheap to buy now right?
FinalStageBoss
Banned
Man Sony aint giving us full BC. Im sure dozens will be very upset but the majority of ppl dont give a flying fuck about playing old ass games tbh.
I love the "so-called." It just reads funny.
At any rate, I await official news from the folks at PlayStation. I'm hoping for some form of grandfathering, cross buy, or discount, as they've tended to do over the years.
Hey, wait, is Dark Cloud even a PS Classic already?
There's no reason not to let us bring PS1 and PS2 Classics to PS4. People have spent a lot of money building up their libraries of those games on PS3 and Vita. Not letting people bring them to the most relevant Playstation platform is bullshit. Especially when there's no technical reason it can't happen. This is just another example of Sony focusing way too much on HD remasters this gen. They are obsessed.
Hades Hotgun
Banned
Forgive my ignorance but how would someone use the swap trick on the PS4?
kinoki
Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
Put bluntly, yes. I think it's pretty absurd to expected that the discs would work in a PS4.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Put 007 Nightfire into your PS4 and enter the konami code.
Sony gonna Sony. No one should of guessed different
Dr. Feel Good
Banned
I'm hoping a series of backlash will make Nintendo choose carefully how they handle Virtual Console/eShop with the NX. I seriously believe they are thinking of resetting everyone's accounts again, but if this did enough damage to Sony hopefully it could change their course.
If nothing else, I hope they allow a cheap upgrade policy, like they did on Wii U
entremet
Member
I wonder if people upset about lack of PS2 discs support are aware how minuscule the market of people that still own PS2 catalog titles.
Sony, like all major companies, does a lot of market research. They have the data.
Moreover, they know how many PS2 classics were sold on the PS3.
To think they'd waste time and resources on supporting such a niche audience, while not making money--how are they making money on already sold games or used games?--show extreme ignorance on how businesses operate.
Sony, like all major companies, does a lot of market research. They have the data.
Moreover, they know how many PS2 classics were sold on the PS3.
To think they'd waste time and resources on supporting such a niche audience, while not making money--how are they making money on already sold games or used games?--show extreme ignorance on how businesses operate.
OccamsLightsaber
Regularly boosts GAF member count to cry about 'right wing gaf' - Voter #3923781
What about legal reasons?
I thought we had passed the point of "who cares what the internet says? lol!"
IE
PS3 and Xbox One
Nice... Apparently some people think you are serious
There absolutely would be challenges associated with offering a high compatibility general purpose emulator to work with discs compared to developing an emulator to ship with a limited selection of games.
Are you familiar with the scale of the PS2 library? They would have to extensively test their emulator with something like 4,000 games in order to achieve an adequate level of satisfaction that they could offer a good customer experience.
Depending on disc read speeds, they'd probably have to develop a system whereby the PS4 OS would rip discs to the hard drive, and only let you boot them when the disc is present.
There would be costs associated with ensuring the system had robust enough security for not only anti-piracy measures, but also to ensure that they weren't opening wider vulnerabilities to the PS4 OS.
I'm broadly of the opinion that despite these challenges, broad disc based PS2 BC would be worth providing, and that these costs would be justifiable, but without seeing all the numbers and what Sony's internal projections of how offering this would benefit their shareholders, I don't really have the information to say that definitively. It's just an inference. Sony felt it was worth overcoming these challenges for their PS1 emulator on PS3, but the stakes are different this time around.
I would be pleased with BC even if it was limited to digitally purchased PS2 games, but it would feel like a missed opportunity.
Are you familiar with the scale of the PS2 library? They would have to extensively test their emulator with something like 4,000 games in order to achieve an adequate level of satisfaction that they could offer a good customer experience.
Depending on disc read speeds, they'd probably have to develop a system whereby the PS4 OS would rip discs to the hard drive, and only let you boot them when the disc is present.
There would be costs associated with ensuring the system had robust enough security for not only anti-piracy measures, but also to ensure that they weren't opening wider vulnerabilities to the PS4 OS.
I'm broadly of the opinion that despite these challenges, broad disc based PS2 BC would be worth providing, and that these costs would be justifiable, but without seeing all the numbers and what Sony's internal projections of how offering this would benefit their shareholders, I don't really have the information to say that definitively. It's just an inference. Sony felt it was worth overcoming these challenges for their PS1 emulator on PS3, but the stakes are different this time around.
I would be pleased with BC even if it was limited to digitally purchased PS2 games, but it would feel like a missed opportunity.
Technical reason being licenses and permission? Maybe the emulation isn't straight forward.
Can publishers start trying to negotiate "future platforms" into contracts so bc and maybe remastered titles would be easier to release?
Most likely not, as it goes back to money. I imagine there has to be a closed loop, other wise that license or permission price would be extreme.
Can publishers start trying to negotiate "future platforms" into contracts so bc and maybe remastered titles would be easier to release?
Most likely not, as it goes back to money. I imagine there has to be a closed loop, other wise that license or permission price would be extreme.
DrROBschiz
Member
Man
Disc support would have been nice but
Emulation and digital catalog support is better than nothing i guess.
I am hoping they are very up front and honest about the why
I imagine licensing and legal issue play a large part. If it is indeed an emulator than there may be issues allowing any disc to run (though this could be software locked but imagine the amount of work required)
Either way they need to get the bad news and honest reporting out of the way
Disc support would have been nice but
Emulation and digital catalog support is better than nothing i guess.
I am hoping they are very up front and honest about the why
I imagine licensing and legal issue play a large part. If it is indeed an emulator than there may be issues allowing any disc to run (though this could be software locked but imagine the amount of work required)
Either way they need to get the bad news and honest reporting out of the way
I can get around the fact that it wont play the physical discs (X1 doesnt either, you end up downloading a digital version of the game with an emulator-wrapper). It would be 'fair' if previously bought 'PS2 classics' unlock a new download. But my guess is that the real diehards will still have their PS2 around; and the lesser diehards will complain, and that most people will go 'PS2 lolwhut?'.
I do hope to play FF12 or something soon. Make it happen Sony.
I do hope to play FF12 or something soon. Make it happen Sony.
dgrdsv
Member
...PS4 read CDs?..
Anyway, I think that the main reason why they're unlikely to support disk based BC is because they'll have to emulate the copy protection routines of these consoles which were h/w based and can be rather tricky especially with a completely new BD drive. Security concerns are also possible that by breaching this emulation of copy protection on PS4 an attacker may actually breach PS4's copy protection as well which will be bad for them at this point of PS4's lifecycle.
Another concern is that all of the above would cost a lot more money than a standard PS4 PSN copy protection which is used for PS4 titles anyway - which may not be an investment they want to make as I personally think that amount of money they may get from selling PS1/PS2 classics on PS4 is not that much at all.
Anyway, I think that the main reason why they're unlikely to support disk based BC is because they'll have to emulate the copy protection routines of these consoles which were h/w based and can be rather tricky especially with a completely new BD drive. Security concerns are also possible that by breaching this emulation of copy protection on PS4 an attacker may actually breach PS4's copy protection as well which will be bad for them at this point of PS4's lifecycle.
Another concern is that all of the above would cost a lot more money than a standard PS4 PSN copy protection which is used for PS4 titles anyway - which may not be an investment they want to make as I personally think that amount of money they may get from selling PS1/PS2 classics on PS4 is not that much at all.
DrROBschiz
Member
Give War A Chance
Member
That's a bold statement. What makes you so sure about that?
I'm pretty sure we`ll see PS2 games become part of IGC. Sony would be silly not to.
Hades Hotgun
Banned
Yeah, the PS4 can read CDs, it just doesn't have the license to do so currently.
On your point though, I agree that security issues would be a major point of complication. The library is so vast for PS1/PS2 that they may fear it, however that seems like the kind of thing that could be patched on a case by case basis as problems arose.
I certainly hope there is a thorough clarification at PSX rather than just a simple announcement.
Live Free or Die
Banned
Yeah because that's what I want to do with my PS4 is to play PS2 games! Yeah!
DrROBschiz
Member
Outside of PS2 IPs they own they literally have no control over that
Its like the Earthbound Port all over again
Dont be reductive. Having one device serve all your gaming needs including legacy software is a nice feature and convenience
Just ask the PC/Steam bros lol
taken from the official PS4 manual
Yes, it even has the laser.
I'm rather surprised you think the copy protection for PS2 discs is more complicated and more expensive than blu-ray copy protection. PS2 copy protection is mostly just the same copy protection that's used for DVD movies (which the PS4 already has), and purposefully bad sectors, which is trivial for a drive firmware to ignore.
Security is a legit concern and about the only halfway decent argument I've seen in these threads, but it's also easily fixed with a whitelist of legitimate PS2 executable hashes.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Then disable those extra features (trophies, remote play, etc) when playing from a disc.
Somehow, Microsoft was able to write a 360 emulator that doesn't require people to rebuy all their games. Surely Sony should be able to do the same thing for a system that is a whole generation older.
DrROBschiz
Member
Its likely 0% technical
70% Legal
30% We need the money
Props to MS for somehow pulling that massive task together and making those licensing deals (which would be easier since 360 was only once generation behind). Does Xbone also support all original xbox games as well?
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
I mean, there sort of is. There's no technical reason preventing 1:1 emulation, but Sony seems intent on upscaling the games they support. Anyone who's used a PS2 emulator knows that emulating a game above its original resolution isn't a one-size-fits-all situation. A lot of games require special settings to avoid graphical oddities, and some stuff just looks weird no matter what.
With that said, I do think it would be nice if they did allow full support for 1:1 emulation on disc games. But that'that's not the route they've decided to go.
With that said, I do think it would be nice if they did allow full support for 1:1 emulation on disc games. But that'that's not the route they've decided to go.
Especially in light of Microsoft offering backwards compatibility on the Xbox One for 360 games, Sony forcing people to re-buy 2 generation old games that they may already have copies of comes across as really shitty to me.
I say that as a someone who falls more in the Sony camp than the MS camp, and someone who has been that way since the days of the PS1, but stuff like this gets under my skin pretty good, and just seems like an obvious way to garner good will with your veteran player base. It's pretty disappointing that they chose to ignore those people completely, as opposed to doing the right thing.
I say that as a someone who falls more in the Sony camp than the MS camp, and someone who has been that way since the days of the PS1, but stuff like this gets under my skin pretty good, and just seems like an obvious way to garner good will with your veteran player base. It's pretty disappointing that they chose to ignore those people completely, as opposed to doing the right thing.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
Which is awful, because as consumers we are applauding this mediocre treatment of our digital content. Arrogant Sony is back.
That just turns it into a pachinko machine.
KojiKnight
Member
Sigh... There are PLENTY of technical reasons... You mention PS2 emulators (of which there is only one that really plays commercial games) and that emulator alone shows part of the problem... It's a technical marvel, but it's also a huge technical mess. Lots of hacks, lots of work arounds, lots of specific settings and tweaks (now mostly handled by a reference file that took many many MANY years to build with extensive testing on all playable games).
The PS2 is a mess to work with (read some of the PCSX2 blog posts for details, they are a fascinating read) and requires really strong single threaded performance, something the current crop of hardware lacks pretty badly... I have no doubts the software engineers at sony are some of the best in the world, but even they are limited by what available to them hardware wise.
The Xbox One only supports 100ish 360 games so far. So even Microsoft's backwards compatibility is basically hampered by publishers either not wanting to support it or not being able to legally.
DrROBschiz
Member
It actually is harder the older the game is from a licensing perspective
Look how long it took them the get all the PS1 games when they started doing that. Hell and its not even a complete library with big games missing and different games per region
Ps2 has one of the largest libraries ever
You guys are oversimplifying things here
meanspartan
Member
Who said anything about unaltered? The Ps4 would be perfectly capable of upscaling games to several times their native resolution, just like PCSX2 can do on PCs with entry level graphic cards. .
PensivePen
Member
It's really unfortunate to see how eager many are to accept this inferior emulation when we've had full PS1 disc support and cross-buy on multiple platforms for years. There's no real reason anyone should have expected less for the PS2 aside from lowered expectations, and adding a few measly incentives like trophies hardly takes the sting out of it.
Not to mention more effort being put into these rereleases means we'll likely be waiting even longer and receiving even fewer classics on the store than we were already.
Uh, you can play every single PS1 game on a PS3 via disc. The PS1 games are region locked to the regions they originally released on, but that's the only caveat. Licensing issues only existed for the digital releases of the games.
Not to mention more effort being put into these rereleases means we'll likely be waiting even longer and receiving even fewer classics on the store than we were already.
Uh, you can play every single PS1 game on a PS3 via disc. The PS1 games are region locked to the regions they originally released on, but that's the only caveat. Licensing issues only existed for the digital releases of the games.
QuickSilverD
Member
Guys please PSX is tomorrow, let's save the outrage for then, when we actually get confirmation on how greedy Sony is
I understand not all games will be supported, but if I have a copy of a PS2 game that is supported, then why not just let me play the copy I have. I'm not oversimplifying, I'm pointing out that in the cases when Sony could have let people who already own a game that is supported play that game, they've instead chosen to go the corporate route of making repurchasing it the only option.
The fact that people defend this sort of thing shows just how far down the rabbit hole we've gone when it comes to the corporate definition of content ownership.
DrROBschiz
Member
Uhhh
Ps1 Disc support was only a one generation gap on PS2
PS3 had a limited hardware model and then went digital... and the transtition left a lot to be desired
BC is complicated man... time to admit it
Im not defending it. Im saying its out of their hands unless its an IP they own. Maybe they should allow disc support for those games only but can you imagine the nitpicking, confusion and mixed messaging?
Legal doesn't make sense. What legal challenges would they have with PS2 discs on the PS4 they didn't with PS1 discs on the PS3? Or PS2 discs on the PS3 with hardware BC or partial software BC? What legal challenges are present for Sony now that aren't for Nintendo or Microsoft?
The money argument doesn't make sense unless Sony's taking business lessons from neogaf. The small portion of people who own PS2 discs, have a PS4, and are still willing to double dip on those discs to play them on the PS4 that wouldn't if there was disc BC cannot possibly make up for all the bad will they know they'd get. Sony's basically telling their oldest fans that if they want to play the old Playstation 2 games they own in HD, go get a PC. I'm not sure that's really what they want to do. It also doesn't bode well for how well PS4 games are going to work on PS5, x86 or not.
Wowfunhappy
Member
YES, yes it does. You can pop an actual PS2 game into your PC's DVD drive and run the game directly off of the disk, no ripping required. It's pretty fantastic.
Supposedly you get slightly less good performance this way, but I've never had any issues with it whatsoever.
Imagine if they announced an updated PSX console for western markets with HDMI-out at PSX tomorrow, for all your PS1 and PS2 needs.