Wowfunhappy
Member
Nothing is stopping Sony from implementing a similar whitelist system.
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There is no Technical Reason for No PS1/2 BC on PS4
- Thread starter Occam
- Start date
Nothing is stopping Sony from implementing a similar whitelist system.
KojiKnight
Member
You realize how long bsnes/higan was in development before it had 100% compatibility with a single system that was from the late 80's?
Now imagine that, with several times as many games, on a systems 100x more complex.
That is why they won't uncouple the emulator from the games... they literally can't... These games need to be tested to completion individually.
You actually get much worse performance, longer load times, stuttering in FMVs, etc. That said, it is completely possible to do yes.
You are oversimplifiyng it and pretending that they should just have the license handy other than with first party titles which they have the license for, The majority of games they don't have the Ip's for would be entirely up to the IP owners if they want to or not.
It's not as simple as you are saying it is.
You're right. And who's to say they won't? We don't really know anything so far.
DrROBschiz
Member
Yes it does make sense and Nintendo and Microsoft has to jump through the same hoops to get BC working on their platforms
You think Virtual Console and Xbones BC are complete and comprehensive? NOt even close
The only complete library you could potentially create would be with PC
And the Legacy support on PS3/Vita is pretty good
Had licensing been migrated to PSN/XBM as the platform instead of the consoles themselves then everything would be far smoother (This is why Virtual console games are stuck on Wii/3ds and you have to do that stupid transfer shit)
Thats why Steam/Apple/Google have all their software run on everything damn near indefinitely
This post makes me wish Xbox Platform Team would give Originals another shot on Xbox One and Windows 10. They could pull it off a lot better now than they did on 360 and there are a good amount of OG Xbox games that haven't been rereleased or made easily available since (Panzer Orta, JSRF, Otogi 1-2, PGR1-2, etc). And unlike PS2 with PCSX2 or GC/Wii with Dolphin there's no playable emulator out there for the system either.
If they made it discbased they wouldnt need all that you wrote about.
But sony wants money.
DrROBschiz
Member
sörine;187893414 said:
What?
I thought OG Xbox has a PC emulator in the wild
I think that the PS2 and PS1 classics should carry over. If they are remastering the game with trophies, higher resolutions, etc, then obviously those versions would be a separate purchase.
As for disk-based games, if you still own your PS1/PS2 disks after 10-20 years, you probably own hardware that plays them.
As for disk-based games, if you still own your PS1/PS2 disks after 10-20 years, you probably own hardware that plays them.
Or, just buy a PS2. Problem solved.
Andrefpvs
Member
Every PS3 is compatible with PS1 discs. The discs ran on software emulation, too.
binarymelon
Member
This isn't really a matter of "could they do it".
Yeah, it was the PS2 BC that was phased out.
PS Now is a cash grab?
autoduelist
Member
I think it's more that some people understand they bought PS2 discs to play on PS2s, and Classics to buy on PSPs/VItas/PS3s with no promise of crossbuy with PS4/5/6/7/8/9.
While I would love crossbuy going forward, I realize everything they sold me still works on the devices I bought it for. Expecting them to build emulators for the rest of time for purchases I already made seems wildly... optimistic, for lack of a better word. Sure, I want them to do it... but I'm not going to call them 'greedy' if they don't.
PensivePen
Member
Those aren't backwards compatibility, they're digital downloads. In the case of Xbox One it's using the old disc as a registration key, but it's still downloading a new version of the game rather than playing it off the original disc. What the PS3 or PS2 does with PS1 discs (not classics downloaded from the PSN store), or how the 360 has a limited number of Xbox discs it can play, is backwards compatibility, allowing you to use your old software on new hardware.
DrROBschiz
Member
I dont know what the legal precedent is for allowing Disc support going forward with systems is
Gonna have to figure that one out
So far PS2, WiiU, PS3, and Xbone allow it. Does anyone know how it works from a licensing angle
binarymelon
Member
Cash grab was probably the wrong term to use, but c'mon most people think it's a pretty bad value at the moment.
I forget people are out of touch with things I take for granted.
Figured everyone knew you could put your PS2 discs in your PC and play them on emulators.
I think it's been nearly 10 years since I first did that...my memory is a bit rough here lately though.
(I may be thinking of PS1 with the 10 years thing, but I've played both physical discs on my PC over the years. It's a nice option.)
Figured everyone knew you could put your PS2 discs in your PC and play them on emulators.
I think it's been nearly 10 years since I first did that...my memory is a bit rough here lately though.
(I may be thinking of PS1 with the 10 years thing, but I've played both physical discs on my PC over the years. It's a nice option.)
I just want to be able to play all those PS1 classic and games I paid for on my PS3 on my PS4. That's about it. If they can do that I'll be happy, if they do it, but make me pay for what's already in my purchase list then fuck 'em. And I see no reason for the PS4 not to be able to play those PS1 game when even my phone can play those ripped ISOs I have on my SD card.
What needs to be licensed? The publisher's license only needs to last long enough to print the discs. Sony doesn't need to license jack, legally they could run Wii and Xbox games if they wanted to (and didn't mind Nintendo and MS retailiating by emulating Playstation games)
The Dreamcast played PS1 discs. Think about that. The SCEA vs. Bleem lawsuit only concerned the use of screenshots in advertising, no one argued the emulator was illegal. How can Sony possibly run into legal problems emulating their own system?
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Well the PS2 and WiiU actually have PS1 and Wii hardware incorporated in their systems respectively, so that should prevent licensing issues. I don't know what the PS3's deal is but with the Xbox One the discs only act as authentication after which you download the game in an emulation wrapper. Since its being hosted on Microsoft's servers and is being downloaded, they require additional licensing.
DrROBschiz
Member
I dunno!
Maybe it really is the security angle people are mentioning then?
Man... someone has to find the core of the issue here somewhere
Um, stuff like music and the like. That sort of stuff is the issue. For example, that's the reason it took the Mega Man X games so long to go digital.
Yup. There's no reason Sony can't at least offer disc bases emulation of PS1 Games on PS4.
DrROBschiz
Member
And allow the PS1 emulator to be used to run the PSN offerings
Arent the PS1 classics basically licensed to PSN at this point
That should have been available at launch
I'm talking about discs, like I said, the license only needs to last long enough to print them.
Security is a matter of hiring a few interns to make SHA1 hashes of all the legitimate game executables and putting it in a whitelist. It's a real concern though, and why I've been assuming Sony would make PS2 BC an app rather than built into the firmware, so it's easier to update. Still doesn't explain the language in the Dark Cloud leak though.
Yep, I can still put any GC game in my Wii and play it, whether it's Gun (it won't be) or Mario Sunshine, it doesn't really matter, there wasn't any talk about licensing, it just worked.
Licensing issues is just another way of saying we're not going to support this specific title because we can't resell it on the current system.
DrROBschiz
Member
That cant be the whole story
The potential profits on legacy software is too chaotic. Makes more sense financially to not support it at all
Ok but like PS1 and PS2 was a while ago now.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
That's because you were playing it on a GameCube, albeit one in a different shell duct-taped together with another one.
I wouldn't put it past copyright laws that having a game run on emulation is legally distinct from having it run on native hardware, even in a new package.
PensivePen
Member
PS1 discs on PS3 run via software emulation don't they?
You usually stay winning by continuing to generate good will. It's not really a race that actually ends.
Of course they may feel other ways to generate good will are more important, may want to get trophies in them all so just going with a disc won't work out, etc.
The PS1 was a while ago when the PS3 came out, but even new PS3s can play PS1 discs.
But we're talking about printing discs? Like the license from Sony to print discs?
I'm confused. You're confusing.
PensivePen
Member
I believe what he's saying is that, once the discs have been printed under license, they can be legally supported on any hardware or software that can legally play them.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Yes, which is where it gets confusing because the PS3 is the only example of pure, total, direct emulation backwards compatibility. I'm not sure how it works or what makes it different. Maybe it's because the process of emulation is different, from what I've read the Cell can simulate the PS1's processes itself so PS1 games basically run on a virtual PS1. Where when it comes to stuff like PS2 Classics, each title has its own enclosed emulation wrapper (this may be wrong).
All other BC is either direct hardware (WiiU), system emulation (Vita for PSP and PS3 for PS1), or wrapper emulation (Xbox One for 360).
Oh.
I actually reckon all PS3s supporting PS1 was a mistake of trying to do PS1 classics early on. Software teething. Obviously they figured out they don't need it system level on the PS4.
Yes, thank you. What's dity saying?
PS2 Classics are straight ISO rips run on a single emulator built into every PS3's firmware. Really wish we could make in-thread sticky posts.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=526722
You were suddenly talking about licenses to print discs which is another ballpark and a different thing entirely. I meam, you typed "print".
PS2 Classics are straight ISO rips run on a single emulator built into every PS3's firmware. Really wish we could make in-thread sticky posts.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=526722
So you linked to a thread wherein people find out that not all PS2 games ran flawlessly. Which would tell you that it isn't as simple as building an all encompassing emulator.
Ah, I see. The post I originally was responding to was talking about discs, though.
Not on the PS3 anyway. It's pretty clear the PS4 one is a lot better, and even if it isn't, there's nothing stopping Sony from whitelisting games that do work like MS does.
Yeah and like, it's well beyond printing license rights by this point.Ah, I see. The post I originally was responding to was talking about discs, though.
We don't know what Sony are doing yet with whitelisting, if they are. I'd imagine the PS4 is powerful enough to run PS2 games without any issues, but considering PCSX2 isn't even perfect with a powerful PC, it's difficult to say.
I imagine they have to have someone QA games from start to finish individually before even deciding to release something digitally.
DrROBschiz
Member
Ah, I see. The post I originally was responding to was talking about discs, though.
Not on the PS3 anyway. It's pretty clear the PS4 one is a lot better, and even if it isn't, there's nothing stopping Sony from whitelisting games that do work like MS does.
Do we have an savvy media outlets that can bring all these technical details and questions to a Sony rep that can actually answer them honestly?
Would love to get the whole picture laid out on this topic. MS has been very forward and honest about their BC challenges. I dont want Sony to get a free pass on the questioning since they have been riding the transparency train and #4theplayers moniker
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Really? That's fascinating then. Maybe it is as simple as money to not offer disc support.Yes, thank you. What's dity saying?
PS2 Classics are straight ISO rips run on a single emulator built into every PS3's firmware. Really wish we could make in-thread sticky posts.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=526722
The reason Microsoft need publisher's permission is because they are distributing modified binaries (regardless of whether BC is being offered via disc or digital purchase).
They are taking the files given to them by the publisher during the certification process (which they still have on file), modifying them, and then distributing them.
For Sony to allow pure disc based backward compatibility would need zero direct involvement with publishers. Similar to original Xbox games on the 360, Wii/Wii U/GBA/DS/3DS (although via software emulation rather than a hardware BC solution), PS1 discs on any PS3, or PS2 games on the PS2 compatible PS3 models.
It's feasible that how disc based BC would impact their relationships with publishers would factor into their decision to offer or not offer it, but that's probably a bit of a stretch.
I doubt that Sony even have access to anything other than the final retail master for these games anyway. They likely wouldn't have the capacity to modify the binaries, and their emulation solution on PS4 likely just uses an iso of a retail copy of the respective games as the base.
They are taking the files given to them by the publisher during the certification process (which they still have on file), modifying them, and then distributing them.
For Sony to allow pure disc based backward compatibility would need zero direct involvement with publishers. Similar to original Xbox games on the 360, Wii/Wii U/GBA/DS/3DS (although via software emulation rather than a hardware BC solution), PS1 discs on any PS3, or PS2 games on the PS2 compatible PS3 models.
It's feasible that how disc based BC would impact their relationships with publishers would factor into their decision to offer or not offer it, but that's probably a bit of a stretch.
I doubt that Sony even have access to anything other than the final retail master for these games anyway. They likely wouldn't have the capacity to modify the binaries, and their emulation solution on PS4 likely just uses an iso of a retail copy of the respective games as the base.