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[PdotMichael]

So many people who are against the will of the people.

Disturbing.

 

[liquidtmd]

For the good of the world Brexit has to be a failure. Either by the population managing to stop it before it happens and giving in that even the UK needs to support further integration. Or by going hard and really hurting the economy. It will hurt a lot of people but it will be necessary to dismotivate people voting similar in other countries. If it is a success, we are screwed with Russia and the US like this.

I hear you but ironically in or out of the EU, the UK does not exist in a bubble - if the EU27 deliberately seek to go above and beyond a shit deal and do not even try to negotiate, sure they will the hurt the UK but it will have a knock on effect across the continent.

Brexit does need to fail as a measure but the EU need to use caution here - the easiest thing to do would let the UK crash and burn to prove a point. But we are in uncharted territory and the EU in its present state is a huge Jenga tower - any one country crashing and burning could be counterproductive in incalcuable ways.

I guess my question is - would the EU making small concessions enough for a desperate UK Government to snatch them, albeit still being far less favourable than the terms they were already on, be better than just saying 'no deal at all' and then dealing with the fallout of a country of nearly 70million being fucked

 

[Kin5290]

So why did Corbyn concede the Article 50 fight, anyways?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

So why did Corbyn concede the Article 50 fight, anyways?

The popular vote may have been 52-48, but the Remain vote was very heavily concentrated. Outside of London, over 85% of Labour seats voted Leave. Anyone who thinks the Labour Party ought to have opposed Article 50 in principle isn't aware of the realities of the situation.

 

[B-Dubs]

So why did Corbyn concede the Article 50 fight, anyways?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-better-off-out-of-eu-with-managed-migration

 

[CadetMahoney]

What sort of negotiation can they make with the EU to make it a soft brexit?

Like what does the UK have to negotiate with to block "free movement" whilst retaining access to the single market as before (without new high tariffs)?

 

[Joni]

What sort of negotiation can they make with the EU to make it a soft brexit?

Like what does the UK have to negotiate with to block "free movement" whilst retaining access to the single market as before (without new high tariffs)?

Soft brexit means they will need to accept free movement.

 

[Neo C.]

I'll wait for alternative polls, thanks.





On a more serious note, they should just accept a soft Brexit. Nothing to gain and lots to lose, but hey, at least the economy will be okayish.

 

[Ushojax]

Did it occur to you people that the mainstream media is dedicated to crushing Corbyn? A Tory government really doesn't bother outlets like The Guardian, but the very idea of turning the Labour Party back into an actual left wing party that isn't just a puppet for big business is absolutely unacceptable to them - and ever since his election they have been doing absolutely anything they can to destroy support in him.

When you say he comes across as useless, how else would he c one across in the rags that are dedicated to his demise? Do you really think they're going to cast him in anything other than the worst light possible?

Brexit happened precisely because there is no left wing alternative offering a solution to the plight of the stagnant worming and lower-middle classes of Britain, if you get rid of Corbyn and replace him with another neoliberal Blairite then you will find the country sliding even further to the far right.

Be my guest, I already left the country as a response to the last Tory victory, but you guys better wake the fuck up and stop playing into the hands of the banking elite and their media cronies or UKIP will be the least of your worries and you can look forward to a British Le Pen or worse.

Corbyn is not a serious politician, he treats it like a part-time job. Did you know that whenever he appears on a Sunday TV show, he takes a day off during the week? If he was serious about getting Labour into government he would be putting himself out there every single day and sweating blood to get into power. He should be on TV, on the radio, in the papers every single day kicking the shit out of the Tories but he's happy to just coast along.

Then you have to consider that he actually supported the government's Brexit bill, despite being the opposition, even after they ignored all those proposed amendments. He didn't even have the guts to sack those cabinet members that dissented. He's a soft man who is not capable of taking Labour into government. His supporters don't seem to realise that Labour doesn't have any fucking power, they can't actually help anyone until they win an election. If Labour don't wake up we are going to be ruled by the Tories for the next 30 years.

 

[Plasma]

Doubt she gives much of a shit as long as the papers are off her back.

 

[jelly]

I still just can't grasp how the entire British government, opposition and judiciary included, are apparently okay with taking the results of an informing referendum, a referendum where people had no idea what the implications and ramifications of their vote would look like (they still don't), and take its very small margin as gospel. I just can't shake the feeling something else is pushing for a Brexit and I'm not seeing the entire picture.

I don't get it either. It's bonkers.

It's like they think the British Empire still exists and being a tax haven, whatever rules they make for the people which makes them even richer. It's pure stupidity and evil. Politicians won't suffer, rich people will survive, nobody else will and live a shit life.

 

[jelly]

The popular vote may have been 52-48, but the Remain vote was very heavily concentrated. Outside of London, over 85% of Labour seats voted Leave. Anyone who thinks the Labour Party ought to have opposed Article 50 in principle isn't aware of the realities of the situation.

The problem is you should vote what you think is best for them. What could happen is Leave politicians will be blamed for making the worst decision in a lifetime when they should have been wise.

 

[nekkid]

Buyer's remorse is on the rise in the UK and the US. I think it'll only increase as time goes on and the consequences continue on.

Really? I see opinions of Brexit crystallising, if anything.

 

[pswii60]

Theresa May doesn't want a 'hard Brexit'. It's a starting position for negotiations. It's pretty clear.

I think we'll end up with something more resembling Switzerland+ or Canada+, than Norway.

And whatever happens, a transitional period will undoubtedly be agreed earlier on to provide some certainty to business and migrants on both sides.

 

[Xando]

There were rumours about Germany being ready to make a deal with the UK to make all of this not terrible. According to the EU's Budget Minister Germany will lose 1 billion Euros because of Brexit.

Brexit might cost us a bit now but giving the UK a good deal would harm us in the long term because it would be precedent for other countries.


Sorry for remain voters but we have to look out for our own (the EU) first.

 

[Moosichu]

Theresa May doesn't want a 'hard Brexit'. It's a starting position for negotiations. It's pretty clear.

I think we'll end up with something more resembling Switzerland+ or Canada+, than Norway.

And whatever happens, a transitional period will undoubtedly be agreed earlier on to provide some certainty to business and migrants on both sides.

What do those + symbols even mean?

 

[pswii60]

Brexit might cost us a bit now but giving the UK a good deal would harm us in the long term because it would be precedent for other countries.


Sorry for remain voters but we have to look out for our own (the EU) first.

Actually, the EU 'punishing' the U.K. would only help harden the views by the far right that the EU is some kind of evil organisation. This kind of rhetoric from the EU in the later stages of the referendum actually fuelled Brexit IMO, people don't like being told what to do.

What do those + symbols even mean?

Plus.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The problem is you should vote what you think is best for them. What could happen is Leave politicians will be blamed for making the worst decision in a lifetime when they should have been wise.

In the event Brexit goes tits up, which do you think is more likely: May gets blamed, or the EU gets blamed? We have a fine national history of blaming the EU for things they have nothing to do with, I can't see us stopping here.

 

[Frankfurter]

What sort of negotiation can they make with the EU to make it a soft brexit?

Like what does the UK have to negotiate with to block "free movement" whilst retaining access to the single market as before (without new high tariffs)?

There is no such deal. A point that has been made clear by several EU politicians, while Farrage and others lied about it.

Theresa May doesn't want a 'hard Brexit'. It's a starting position for negotiations. It's pretty clear.

I think we'll end up with something more resembling Switzerland+ or Canada+, than Norway.

And whatever happens, a transitional period will undoubtedly be agreed earlier on to provide some certainty to business and migrants on both sides.

Switzerland has free movement with the EU!

 

[theaface]

In the event Brexit goes tits up, which do you think is more likely: May gets blamed, or the EU gets blamed? We have a fine national history of blaming the EU for things they have nothing to do with, I can't see us stopping here.

The gutter press will blame the EU, immigrants, the courts, disabled people, LGBT people and anyone on benefits before they hold May's feet to the fire.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Almost as if people are realising they voted against their own self interest.

That's not it at all, though. There's still a clear majority of people who want Brexit to go ahead. That there isn't a clear majority for hard Brexit isn't that surprising, given the multiple different options available. Ultimately the government can only pursue one outcome, and it's not clear that any of the individual outcomes actually has majority support.

 

[Bleepey]

Did it occur to you people that the mainstream media is dedicated to crushing Corbyn? A Tory government really doesn't bother outlets like The Guardian, but the very idea of turning the Labour Party back into an actual left wing party that isn't just a puppet for big business is absolutely unacceptable to them - and ever since his election they have been doing absolutely anything they can to destroy support in him.

When you say he comes across as useless, how else would he c one across in the rags that are dedicated to his demise? Do you really think they're going to cast him in anything other than the worst light possible?

Brexit happened precisely because there is no left wing alternative offering a solution to the plight of the stagnant worming and lower-middle classes of Britain, if you get rid of Corbyn and replace him with another neoliberal Blairite then you will find the country sliding even further to the far right.

Be my guest, I already left the country as a response to the last Tory victory, but you guys better wake the fuck up and stop playing into the hands of the banking elite and their media cronies or UKIP will be the least of your worries and you can look forward to a British Le Pen or worse.

Look at the reasons I gave as to why Corbyn sucks. If you want sources I'll provide them. Also I forgot to mention, he 3 line whipped as leader of the opposition in support of Tory govt policy which he campaigned against that was against the official Labour Party policy.

 

[Coen]

That's not it at all, though. There's still a clear majority of people who want Brexit to go ahead. That there isn't a clear majority for hard Brexit isn't that surprising, given the multiple different options available. Ultimately the government can only pursue one outcome, and it's not clear that any of the individual outcomes actually has majority support.

I keep reading this, but I just don't know what people are so sure about if Brexit is nothing more than a catch-all phrase that can mean anything between complete independence and having basically the same deal as before, just with the 'outside the EU'-moniker? You can't possibly say a majority of people are in favour of a Brexit if there's no clear definition of what that entails. It's like saying a majority of people like their independence; of course they do, but the question is what they're willing to sacrifice.

 

[Daffy Duck]

I still just can't grasp how the entire British government, opposition and judiciary included, are apparently okay with taking the results of an informing referendum, a referendum where people had no idea what the implications and ramifications of their vote would look like (they still don't), and take its very small margin as gospel. I just can't shake the feeling something else is pushing for a Brexit and I'm not seeing the entire picture.

Because it's a guise to really be in control over the Uk and the Conservatives can go ham with their ludicrous ideas, especially when we are so lacking in any form of any opposition.

 

[LewieP]

That's not it at all, though. There's still a clear majority of people who want Brexit to go ahead. That there isn't a clear majority for hard Brexit isn't that surprising, given the multiple different options available. Ultimately the government can only pursue one outcome, and it's not clear that any of the individual outcomes actually has majority support.

Nonsense. Majority of people don't want a hard brexit. A hard brexit is the only kind of brexit that can occur.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Remain forces should just dump Labour and support Lib-Dems instead

Labour is dead

Yes more broken promises and bedroom tax please, can we get some more benefit caps and who the fuck calls themselves liberal and goes into power with the Tories and then democratically they ignore a referendum because they didn't like the outcome.

Then look at the cunt running the show then look at what opportunistic scum bags they are. I'd rather ram my arse with a sharp stick than vote Lib Dem.

If you care about the NHS and care about equal rights and you can get over bleating out shite you've gleaned in a tabloid rag. Vote Labour.

I'm honestly tired of fighting people who base their opinions on hearsay and a media that's totally in bed with the Tories. You know who was sat in the room in the interview between gove and trump, Rupert fucking Murdoch. Could you ever see Corbyn cozying up to those cunts? That's why they hate him.

Also people saying he's not a proper politician, he's been an MP since 1983 and from what I've looked at his politics has always been on the right side of history, he was Labour's best bet but they fucked themselves over and they know it.

 

[Koren]

Why are the Socialist Party in France about to be eviscerated?

This one is easy...

There have been two widely different currents in the French Socialist Party for some time, one center right, one hard right. Even in the past 5 years they spent having the power, they couldn't even pass laws seen as more "liberal" normally because a large part of the socialist party was voting against the laws suggested by other socialists.

Several laws have been passed without a vote (well, they could vote against the government instead, but that wasn't really a solution).

Unsurprisingly, the gap is larger now than ever, and when they asked people which side they favored, they choosed the side that wasn't in power for 5 years, passing laws without a vote, and that wasn't representated with the former prime minister. So the "hard" right side.

It should probably have split for ages, they've dealt with different views for decades, and while they always managed to join just in time for elections, that can't always succeed, especially if you were in power and still fight among yourselves.

 

[liquidtmd]

Nonsense. Majority of people don't want a hard brexit. A hard brexit is the only kind of brexit that can occur.

Correct, to which this poll shows how flawed the decision to pose the binary question of Leave/Stay was to the nation of which to many this was not clear.

"We want to Leave...But not a hard one"!

Hard Brexit was invariably almost inevitable

 

[CyclopsRock]

I keep reading this, but I just don't know what people are so sure about if Brexit is nothing more than a catch-all phrase that can mean anything between complete independence and having basically the same deal as before, just with the 'outside the EU'-moniker? You can't possibly say a majority of people are in favour of a Brexit if there's no clear definition of what that entails. It's like saying a majority of people like their independence; of course they do, but the question is what they're willing to sacrifice.

Of course you can say that. The fact that Leave won the referendum demonstrates that. I voted remain but I support us leaving the EU on the grounds that the people have spoken in a referendum and that's basically it. The fact there are multiple possible outcomes doesn't change the fact that a majority clearly support the UK no longer being in the EU.

 

[Lagamorph]

So why did Corbyn concede the Article 50 fight, anyways?

Because the UK leaving the EU is what Corbyn has personally wanted for decades. He couldn't give a shit about the will of the people, he's getting what he personally wanted and he's not going to try and block it.

He can't even claim to be in favour of parliamentary sovereignty on the matter. The morning after the referendum Corbyn was on national TV insisting that Cameron had to trigger Article 50 immediately, without any kind of negotiations or parliamentary discussion. He just saw a bandwagon against May doing that and hopped aboard because he knew Parliament would push it through.

 

[Visualante2]

So why did Corbyn concede the Article 50 fight, anyways?

Labour has to fight two by elections this month in strong leave communities. He needs to appear to be listening to those people.

 

[plagiarize]

This!

Labour is being decimated in the North/Scotland as it is.
If they tried to stop the triggering of article 50, that would be the final nail.

The Libdems are just playing opportunity politics as they always do. As they know they are not in the position to affect the situation but can gain politically by appearing to be the main opposition to brexit.

Brexit is now inevitable, the sooner people accept the reality and hope for the best deal the better.

What about their responsibility to be the opposition party? If the main party are taking a position that nearly half the country oppose, aren't they sort of supposed to try to represent those people opposing? Arguing 'but it's what my voters want!' is the sort of silliness that the GOP use to defend their stance on things like climate change and gay rights.

The tories are many kinds of terrible, but at least they ignore their voters on those issues.

 

[DavidDesu]

I'm still annoyed that we can have a situation like this where a new leader is allowed to do whatever she wants and doesn't need a mandate from the public.

I know we don't elect the leader, we elect the party, but May is now the one and only one with the power to decide what Brexit means and nobody else had a say over that. And she fucking campaigned against the bloody thing. It's an absolute oversight we have a system that can be this fucked.

I absolutely believe there should be a new general election and it should have an impact on what sort of Brexit we want. The vote was razor thin. Don't worry as a Scottish independence supporter if we get such a razor thin win in the eventual second independence referendum I will be keeping an eagle eye on all those shouting WILL OF THE PEOPLE over Brexit with my Hypocrisy Meter....

 

[liquidtmd]

I'm still annoyed that we can have a situation like this where a new leader is allowed to do whatever she wants and doesn't need a mandate from the public.

I know we don't elect the leader, we elect the party, but May is now the one and only one with the power to decide what Brexit means and nobody else had a say over that. And she fucking campaigned against the bloody thing. It's an absolute oversight we have a system that can be this fucked.

I absolutely believe there should be a new general election and it should have an impact on what sort of Brexit we want. The vote was razor thin. Don't worry as a Scottish independence supporter if we get such a razor thin win in the eventual second independence referendum I will be keeping an eagle eye on all those shouting WILL OF THE PEOPLE over Brexit with my Hypocrisy Meter....

In relation to Scots IndyRef 2, a 52%/48% scoreline would be a darkly humourous outcome

 

[RinsFury]

So many people who are against the will of the people.

Disturbing.

The people don't always know what's best for them.

 

[liquidtmd]

The people don't always know what's best for them.

A combination of ignorance and the lies fed from both camps

If I went to a job interview and came up with half the bollocks both sides came up with, if I got the job based on that and then later said 'lol whoops my bad, can't really do any of that' I'd rightfully expect the company to fire me.

However I would expect at the time the company would have put my claims to a higher standard of individual scrutiny...

 

[DavidDesu]

In relation to Scots IndyRef 2, a 52%/48% scoreline would be a darkly humourous outcome

Yep and expect the exact same Brexit erst who shout "will of the people" to come out saying the result isn't strong enough. I almost want it to happen for the irony (though please something closer to 60/40 would be much oreferred). (Additionally the last indy referendum campaign gained about 15% from the start to the end... and given everything that's happened I can imagine it doing something similar this time too once we get down to it).

 

[oti]

Brexit might cost us a bit now but giving the UK a good deal would harm us in the long term because it would be precedent for other countries.


Sorry for remain voters but we have to look out for our own (the EU) first.

Even if there was a deal, that deal is dead. Like, super dead. Hard Brexit all the way.

 

[CyclopsRock]

The people don't always know what's best for them.

Whilst you're not wrong, that particular horse has absolutely bolted. You can't have a government go to the people, say "We're going to execute your will as represented by a referendum on this issue" and then, after the vote, say "Yeah, but you don't know what you're talking about so we won't." I don't like the idea of a government protecting people from themselves by ignoring their will.

 

[jelly]

Whilst you're not wrong, that particular horse has absolutely bolted. You can't have a government go to the people, say "We're going to execute your will as represented by a referendum on this issue" and then, after the vote, say "Yeah, but you don't know what you're talking about so we won't." I don't like the idea of a government protecting people from themselves by ignoring their will.

They shouldn't have asked the question to begin with but they still had opportunities to get out of it by asking more questions but they didn't.

You could ask people if they want to pay tax and enough would say no. Doesn't make them right.

 

[Zakalwe]

Corbyn is incompetent. Like seriously. He dragged his feet when it came to the remain campaign; he refused to make the argument that the U.K should remain because it's, I don't know, economic suicide. When it seems there will be no compromise and the U.K. Will be leaving the single market, he should have been singing to the rooftops that even prominent brexiters like Dam Hannondidn't want this. That the Norway model is a downgrade and even if that was happening which it ain't that the uk will pay more for less. He should be asking the people whether they think the party of austerity will make up for the shortfall in EU funding in places like Wales and Cornwall. He should be bashing Theresa May for cozying up to Trump and how it's important to be a part of a trading bloc to ensure the uk is not bullied by the US. That May Is adding layers upon on layers of bureaucracy by having to hire trade negotiators to ensure the uk gets a very shitty deal. Finally, the fact Boris voted against giving £350 million a week to the NGOs should be sung from the rooftops. It seems like he is intentionally missing so many open goals it's maddening.

Wait, I'm pretty sure I've seen him doing at least half the things you claim he isn't.

Honestly, this "Corbyn is incompent" push is getting a bit #altfacts for my liking.

 

[Bleepey]

Wait, I'm pretty sure I've seen him doing at least half the things you claim he isn't.

Honestly, this "Corbyn is incompent" push is getting a bit #altfacts for my liking.

Which things has he done?

 

[mrklaw]

this is the problem with having such a stupid question. It doesn't ask how people want to leave, or what the reasons are they want to leave. So the government is left with what they think is carte blanche to put words in peoples' mouths. I hope it bites them in the fucking arse.

 

[liquidtmd]

this is the problem with having such a stupid question. It doesn't ask how people want to leave, or what the reasons are they want to leave. So the government is left with what they think is carte blanche to put words in peoples' mouths. I hope it bites them in the fucking arse.

It will. When Brexit is triggered and things really get going, Britain as a whole will hurt but I imagine it's going to eviscerate many a political career.

 

[Zakalwe]

Which things has he done?

He's bashed May for cozying up to Trump, and he's gone in on Boris. I read both of these things and I'll try to find links.

This idea that he's incompetent too, what makes you say it aside from the things you think he should do that he hasn't?

 

[Xando]

It will. When Brexit is triggered and things really get going, Britain as a whole will hurt but I imagine it's going to eviscerate many a political career.

I agree and if Sturgeon plays this right when the effects of Brexit hit that could swing the needle towards an independent scotland.

 

[Maledict]

He's bashed May for cozying up to Trump, and he's gone in on Boris. I read both of these things and I'll try to find links.

This idea that he's incompetent too, what makes you say it aside from the things you think he should do that he hasn't?

If you are in anyway active in labour party politics you will be aware that the man is unbelievably, seriously out of his depth.

The party machine isn't functioning, at all. They can't even get frigging press releases out on time. The party is in a ludicrous position of having the most members its ever had, whilst at the same time being utterly unprepared to fight an election.

 

[liquidtmd]

New news ish but only a few choice words of meat - whats the view on this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...oubts-eu-will-remain-united-brexit-talks/amp/

Basically saying Juncker is well aware of the probable best route for the Brits to take - divide and...well, hardly conquer but at least be less shit.

 

[Zakalwe]

If you are in anyway active in labour party politics you will be aware that the man is unbelievably, seriously out of his depth.

The party machine isn't functioning, at all. They can't even get frigging press releases out on time. The party is in a ludicrous position of having the most members its ever had, whilst at the same time being utterly unprepared to fight an election.

I'm not, but I know people who are directly and they're not giving me the same feedback so I don't know what to say. Is there any evidence you can show to back this up as I'm hearing two things here.

 

[El Topo]

New news ish but only a few choice words of meat - whats the view on this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...oubts-eu-will-remain-united-brexit-talks/amp/

Basically saying Juncker is well aware of the probable best route for the Brits to take - divide and...well, hardly conquer but at least be less shit.

This may also very well mean that the UK is not going to get any deal done though. That would be even worse for them. The divide-and-conquer approach might help them avoid a harsh reaction at best.