Analysis falls apart right here. I lol at you for calling the millions of people who buy GTA and Halo "hard core". They're no more "hard core" than the Wii Fit crowd. Just different.michaelpachter said:I made a comment on Bonus Round that half the Wii audience is hard core and half is purely casual. That split sounds pretty agressive, and the data above suggests it's more like 25/75.
Mayor Haggar said:Grin
Factor 5
BottleRocket
Pandemic
All closed due to HD failures last year alone.
Opiate said:I actually think third parties are correct now, generally speaking, but I'd point out that they're correct now because they made such significant mistakes earlier.
They should have pushed the Wii. Not only with bigger games, but with more reliable talent, with more money, and they should have done this all much earlier than they did. PS3/360 had a slew major franchises (Metal Gear, GTA, Assassin's Creed, Final Fantasy) lined up well before launch. That's pretty much the sort of support I'm suggesting the Wii should have had.
But they didn't do that. They disproportionately supported the PS3 and 360 from the start, and now people are surprised that their games do disproportionately well on those systems. There is very much a snowball effect within a generation, and those snowballs are too big to stop now.
At this point, it's far beyond saving. It wouldn't just require convincing people to buy the Wii: it would require convincing people to abandon the PS3 and 360 for it, because virtually everyone who wants to play the next big shooter already owns an HD system.
ShockingAlberto said:I think part of the problem is making these statements about random games.
Sega thinks the final word was Dead Space Extraction.
That one guy who was on 1Up Yours about a year ago said the final word would be MadWorld.
ymmv said:RE4 sold gangbusters because for almost a year it was one of the few games worth having on the platform.
Mayor Haggar said:Grin
Factor 5
BottleRocket
Pandemic
All closed due to HD failures last year alone.
You fail hard with an HD game, it's your ass. You fail with a Wii game, you'll still be working the next day.
depends on how nintendo/capcom markets it vs. how ubisoft is marketing itAndrex said:MH3 might have been a test in Japan but not here. NMH2 is more apt for the US market.
gamergirly said:If you take a look at the Indie game selection on XBL(Xbox Box Live), I can see ALOT of casual but addictive titles. Something like Splosion Man with a strong marketing campaign would have done wonders for the Wii. It's something that can be easily picked up but advances to the point of where anyone that played the game would find it challenging. It's also not graphic intensive and doesnt need a 360 or PS3 because all of its appeal is simple but hardcore platforming. Alot like New Super Mario Bros Wii.
ShockingAlberto said:Mario vs. Sonic does!
One left nut please.
Thank you. I was looking for a very reasonable way to say just this.ShockingAlberto said:I don't know which way to fall on Rabbids.
On one hand, they're a recognizable brand now, the game had effort put in to it, it was clearly a labor of love. There aren't a lot of excuses you can make for poor sales.
On the other hand, the flip side of brand loyalty is bad brand association. The game is selling in line with the other Rabbids games because the audience has been distilled down to those people that play Rabbids games. You can't make four rather mediocre (to put it kindly) minigame collections and expect people are just going to understand that this new game is different and good.
it is in japan.. but in NA and in Europe it is a third party title..ElFly said:Pachter counted MvS as a first party title.
stuminus3 said:Analysis falls apart right here. I lol at you for calling the millions of people who buy GTA and Halo "hard core". They're no more "hard core" than the Wii Fit crowd. Just different.
leroy hacker said:If Nintendo had not nearly ruined Wiiware with such restrictive storage limitations and had a better designed shop and more promotion for the service I think we would be seeing vastly more games of that type on the Wii.
wazoo said:marketing is really a problem, the amount of marketing for exclusive games, as well as the real bias towards HD versions for multiplatform games (like EA Sports).
Stumpokapow said:If these are the best examples for the dangerous high risk tightrope game of the HD platforms, I don't think it's going to dissuade developers.
bmf said:Thank you. I was looking for a very reasonable way to say just this.
Aaron Strife said:depends on how nintendo/capcom markets it vs. how ubisoft is marketing it
so yeah
yeah... its a suda 51 game... its ridiculous to suggest that he needs to sell 500k in NA alone to break even.. given how many copies of killer 7 or flower, sun and rain they sold..Busaiku said:One thing I wanted to ask, Mr. Pachter, is why you believe No More Heroes 2 should need to sell 500k (I'm assuming you were only talking in terms of NPD numbers) to simply break even.
The first game only did something on the order of 400k worldwide, and was considered a resounding success by the development staff, and we're getting the sequel due to it being a 400k seller.
Now, the second game is obviously a much higher budget affair, but still, 500k in the US alone would be a resounding success.
Unless you were of course referring to the worldwide sales, which would make a bit more sense.
Leondexter said:I think the argument that publishers/developers shouldn't make HD games is overused and not proven at all. There's money to be made there. There's absolutely no reason for the "HD vs. Wii" debate. They can choose one or the other and go with it. But most publishers are supporting both--which they should be. The problem is that their Wii support is severly lacking compared to their PS3/360 support, by any measurement, which is bad all around--for them and for us. Success on the Wii takes the same things that success on any console requires. I don't understand why it's such a big mystery.
farnham said:yeah... its a suda 51 game... its ridiculous to suggest that he needs to sell 500k in NA alone to break even.. given how many copies of killer 7 or flower, sun and rain they sold..
farnham said:Anyway how high were the 360 and PS3 thirdparty sales this year..?
Stumpokapow said:While I can certainly fault them for the shop design and promotion, the file size limit really couldn't have been avoided based on the Wii's fundamental architecture, and I think if we're going to let hindsight be 20/20 on the Wii's fundamental architecture, there's plenty of things we'd be nitpicking for a better software outcome before we got to storage capacity
farnham said:it is in japan.. but in NA and in Europe it is a third party title..
Just like NBA Street V3 and SSX On Tour on the GC Mario in the title doesnt mean its first party...
gerg said:Judging from the total software estimates posted on Gamasutra a little while ago, the 360's third-party software sales should be around five million units higher; the PS3's (total) software sales were ten million units lower than the Wii's third-party software sales, so third-party sales on the PS3 are bound to be at least that much less.
thefro said:NMH2 will be a success if it outsells the first game in the series.
I do have a lot of faith in Monster Hunter Tri to end all this silliness, presuming that Nintendo & Capcom put some muscle into pushing the game.
gamergirly said:This probably sounds crazy but couldnt Nintendo come up with an idea where you could get dual games(2 games on one disc) and rebrand them for lesser known publishers/developers? Could be labeled "Wii Best Indies" or something like that, place next to Nintendo 1st parties, and maybe cost $15 to $30. Just start manufacturing this series with a cool boxart, demo them in some of the Gamestop/Walmart/etc kiosks, and get word of mouth going.
I can buy that the market just "isn't there" or "dried up" like opiate says. But to say that they tried is bul... wrong.Stumpokapow said:I don't see as though it's bad for them; if they felt that way, they'd adjust their software outputs. Which they did, around the 2007-2008 mark. And now they're doing again, only away from the Wii, starting in mid-late 2009 and continuing.
Stumpokapow said:I don't see as though it's bad for us; the games people want to play are more or less still being made, it's just a matter of buying another console, and once you get to 5-6 games that you'd like ported, it's cheaper to buy the other console and bargain bin backlog titles than it is to hold out for the ports.
I think you misunderstood my example.Indyana said:I don't think Assassin's Creed is a good example because it's made for the strengths of the HD consoles. But I don't understand why a companies like Square-Enix does multiplatform DS-Wii games, but not PSP-Wii. Or Namco-Bandai that refuses to try with Tekken and Soul Calibur.
ElFly said:I find dishonest to say that Lair didn't kill Factor 5.
After Lair they went from working with Sony and Nintendo to Brash (who the hell are these guys).
Then Nintendo didn't accept their Kid Icarus pitch. Can't blame them, we've seem some of the concept art.
Lonely1 said:I can buy that the market just "isn't there" or "dried up" like opiate says. But to say that they tried is bul... wrong.
Well, I do own a Ps3 (and a good PC) but I hate dual analogs for aiming. I find the wii-mote setup very comfortable and satisfying. So, for me, as a gamer, I would like to see more games for that setup. So, the "just buy a HD console" stuff doesn't appeal to me.
Dragona Akehi said:Forgive me, because I'm not that good at sales analysis and I don't want to give the impression I'm only blaming third parties for the conundrum that is Wii Third Party Sales. Nintendo deserves a shitcake every day for the fact they were unwilling to play ball with Third Parties in order to drum up support for their system.
But the only AAA Third Party games that aren't multiplat (like GH and Rock Band) and are from known IPs that I can think of on the Wii are MH3Tri in Japan and Rabbids Go Home in North America. We know how MH3Tri sold: very well, if a little disappointing.
So my question is: how is Rabbids selling?
Htown said:Third parties need to look at WHY Nintendo games are successful, instead of just throwing their hands up and going "WELP THAT'S JUST NINTENDO!" It's not just the brand name on the box that makes people buy Nintendo's games.
Nintendo makes great games, puts 100% effort behind them, and markets the crap out of them. They don't only put out spinoffs or "test" games.
Also, not EVERY Nintendo game does millions in sales. Some games are mainstream, and some games are niche. Smash Bros sells differently from Metroid which sells differently from Fire Emblem or Battalion Wars. I'm pretty sure Nintendo didn't get pissed and throw up their hands about people not buying hardcore games when Fire Emblem didn't sell three million copies. Third parties are so hung up on "casual" vs "hardcore" that they forget the "mass market" vs "niche" part.
Also, people keep bringing up Dead Space Extraction or Darkside Chronicles, but making that comparison is silly. These are spinoffs to games where the main series releases don't appear on the console. Where's the audience? Can you imagine if Nintendo put out Twilight Princess on Wii, then put out Link's Crossbow Training on 360 and wondered why it didn't sell?
Stumpokapow said:I don't see as though it's bad for them; if they felt that way, they'd adjust their software outputs. Which they did, around the 2007-2008 mark. And now they're doing again, only away from the Wii, starting in mid-late 2009 and continuing.
I don't see as though it's bad for us; the games people want to play are more or less still being made, it's just a matter of buying another console, and once you get to 5-6 games that you'd like ported, it's cheaper to buy the other console and bargain bin backlog titles than it is to hold out for the ports.
ElFly said:I think pachter counted it as first party solely because it says "Mario" on the title. Branding and stuff like that, not who actually paid for development/market/distribution.
And the problem is that we're switching genre's. The Raving Rabbids games were decent mini/party games that sold well in their first incarnation, and then continued to sell because they weren't utter crap. They successfully created what appears to be a yearly iteration franchise for the Wii. In the 4th iteration, they've switched genres. Now it's not a mini/party collection, but it is in fact a wacky katamari-a-like. A hefty percentage of the 2 million or so people who bought game #3 are going to be in for a surprise, and the people who ignored games #2-3 because the first one wasn't what they were looking for are going to continue to ignore #4 because it's got the same name and nothing much to differentiate it from outward appearances.wazoo said:Once more "falling in line with the other games" is a terrible argument, when the Rabbids games are one of the rare 3rd parties success stories on the Wii selling almost 2M copies each year worldwide.
IIRC the secret-nintendo-project that Factor 5 had was Pilotwings, that had been in development since the Gamecube and moved to the Wii. I find hard to believe that it wasn't paid for in all that time. Other unannounced Wii titles they could have we don't know anything about.Stumpokapow said:Bzzt.
After Lair, they did sign a project with Nintendo. Not Kid Icarus, an actual project that was approved. They were working on this project for some time. THEN Nintendo dropped them. Doesn't relate to Rare.
As for Brash, the fact that you hadn't heard of them doesn't mean that they weren't prominent or prolific. They were a venture capital-funded publisher who immediately snatched up rights to enormous swaths of licenced properties and signed long-term multiple game contracts with many developers.
I think claiming a "loss of prestige" caused Factor 5 to be unable to get real work is a massive misreading of the real situation, which was that Factor 5 had plenty of real work and got flip turned upsidedown by an incredibly unlikely, hard to plan for negative externality.
farnham said:Wasnt it NBA Street V3 Featuring Nintendo Allstars and SSX On Tour Featuring Mario (checks box)
yup it was
Well, for me its not minor.Stumpokapow said:Eh, I try not to give too much thought to minor stuff like that.
Stumpokapow said:In general, though, a good game is a good game and anyone who wants to play BioShock with IR controls is unnecessarily starving themselves if they refuse to play it elsewhere. IR controls might change BioShock from an 8/10 for you to a 9.5/10, but there's no sense forsaking BioShock-level games so you can buy The Conduit-level games and complaining about the lack of really good stuff on the system .
Leondexter said:It is most definitely "bad for them". Publishers are leaving money on the table at best, and some of them have publicly complained of losing money on their (quite cheap) Wii games. If losing money isn't bad for a business, I don't know what is.
And it is "bad for us", at least if you're dissatisfied with the realization of the Wii's potential, as I am. I have a lot of consoles and am anything but starved for games, but the Wii is unique (at the moment) and I was hoping for more games that use its functions well, particularly the pointer function.
Big One said:So people here are suggesting...
Little King's Story
Silent Hill: Shattered Memories
A Boy and His Blob
Zack & Wiki
Resident Evil 4: Wii edition
House of the Dead: OVERKILL
No More Heroes
No More Heroes: Desperate Struggle
MadWorld
Murasama: The Demon Blade
Klonoa
Tales of Graces
Monster Hunter Tri
Tatsunoko vs. Capcom
mario vs. sonic at the winter olympics is published by sega.. and developed by sega.. its a sega game and not a nintendo game.. therefore its a thirdparty game..ElFly said:*shrugs* ok. I don't think it's relevant to this discussion. The original analysis took MvS as a 1st party game to avoid the strange third party game that had mario on the title and on the box and that sold pretty well. I think it's valid for that angle, nothing else.
farnham said:mario vs. sonic at the winter olympics is published by sega.. and developed by sega.. its a sega game and not a nintendo game.. therefore its a thirdparty game..
Lonely1 said:I don't refuse to play such games. But since the control setup is not comfortable for me, their replay value rather is limited. UC2 was a great a ride, just a short one. While i have spent more then 100 hours in MWR. What wrong with me wanting a product with a control scheme that I like?
I can give you a reason why it's bad.Stumpokapow said:I don't see as though it's bad for us; the games people want to play are more or less still being made, it's just a matter of buying another console, and once you get to 5-6 games that you'd like ported, it's cheaper to buy the other console and bargain bin backlog titles than it is to hold out for the ports.
michaelpachter said:The conclusion I draw from this is that the Wii audience is far more casual and harder to reach than the PS3 or 360 audiences (pretty obvious), and they buy brand name software (with "Wii" or "Mario" in the title, or with a TV/product tie-in).
then you probably shouldn't have begun your post with a list and stupidly condescending tone.Big One said:So people here are suggesting...
Little King's Story
Silent Hill: Shattered Memories
Super Mario Galaxy
New Super Mario Bros. Wii
A Boy and His Blob
Zack & Wiki
Disaster: Day of Crisis
Resident Evil 4: Wii edition
House of the Dead: OVERKILL
Sin & Punishment 2
No More Heroes
No More Heroes: Desperate Struggle
MadWorld
Murasama: The Demon Blade
Klonoa
Tales of Graces
Monster Hunter Tri
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Tatsunoko vs. Capcom
Punch-Out!!
Wii Sports Resort
Are all sub-standard, B-rate games? :lol This has to be a joke.
I don't mean to start any listwars
Indyana said:I can give you a reason why it's bad.
People bought the Wii because they wanted to play games that used the Wii strengths. But the third parties decided that if someone wanted to play their best games, he would have to play them focusing in the HD twins strengths. And we know that those strengths are very different.
selig said:oh pachter :/
show us the assassins creed 2, modern warfare 2 and the likes that are released on the wii and didnt sell and...OH SNAP
Stumpokapow said:you haven't named a company that has closed down / shrunk due to investing in hd software