Unhandled Exception
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So long as you can disable this server side it's not a big deal.
Are people seriously debating which control method is better for FPS games?
Like seriously, I have both a Controller and KB/M setup for my PC. (And others, but we're mostly talking about controller and KB/M)
Controllers are great for racing games (not as good as a Wheel setup, except for maybe arcade racers)
Controllers are great for platformers - Use it on my PC for those...
KB/M are the best for RTS/MOBA games.
KB/M are best for FPS.
Different input types are better for different types of games.
What's so hard to understand about that?
Learning to master all input types actually make you a better gamer.
Most of the popular shooters haven't used it for controllers because there hasn't been a huge push for PC TV gaming. More and more people are going this route everyday, and it's not surprising to see companies offering this.
The other point given was the game called Shadowrun. Go and play Shadowrun and compare it to Titanfall. The games are completely different. And also, one of the reasons why Devs don't like to cross the two player groups together is because Microsoft and Sony don't want them to. Microsoft no longer support PC gaming, so it doesn't make sense for them to have cross play, and Sony has their own console, and wouldn't want to support PC.
Also, you have no idea what you are talking about with regards to using M+KB with a TV. You could effectively use your tv as a monitor, but generally, my TV is in front of my couch and my recliners. Give me a good option to use M+KB on my PC from those 2 sitting positions that's under the cost of a wireless Xbox controller + a receiver and I will switch to that option. In it's current state, it's very impractical to use M+KB on your couch or your recliner, where a controller shines the brightest.
Are people seriously debating which control method is better for FPS games?
Like seriously, I have both a Controller and KB/M setup for my PC. (And others, but we're mostly talking about controller and KB/M)
Controllers are great for racing games (not as good as a Wheel setup, except for maybe arcade racers)
Controllers are great for platformers - Use it on my PC for those...
KB/M are the best for RTS/MOBA games.
KB/M are best for FPS.
Different input types are better for different types of games.
What's so hard to understand about that?
Learning to master all input types actually make you a better gamer.
Who else is doing this as of late, you need examples not just a talking point? Not saying people can't use controllers for fps games. I'm saying in the pc environment it hasn't worked out so far and I've yet to see an implementation get it right. Argue all you want history and reality are on my side so far. I want more pad players but I'm done compromising shooters so that people who don't want to admit the reality of what pads to do shooters can come in to an environment they are not the majority and start dictating things.
It's not really about "competitively viable" as in "played in tournaments"; there are plenty of games that I would not take seriously enough to play in a tournament but that I can at least take seriously on an ad hoc basis and enjoy (Mount and Blade, for example). Something like this goes a long way towards preventing even that from being possible.I would say Titanfall's status a serious competitive game has been invalid from it's inception. This a port of a console exclusive bombastic romp that happens to be multiplayer only. From what I've seen there are far too many variables for anyone into serious competition to be interested. And lets say an MLG type community does materialize.. those people already play with crazy rules anyway. They can just say "no controllers" along with no jetpacks and limited titandrops and whatever else those people do make games more streamlined. People railing against this so fervently really do come off as out of touch.
I wasn't making a slippery slope argument. I was saying that making an allowance for controller players to make them more competitive is a design decision that reflects the opinion that the playing field should be made level when it isn't.That slippery slope smugness.
Who else is doing this as of late, you need examples not just a talking point? Not saying people can't use controllers for fps games. I'm saying in the pc environment it hasn't worked out so far and I've yet to see an implementation get it right. Argue all you want history and reality are on my side so far. I want more pad players but I'm done compromising shooters so that people who don't want to admit the reality of what pads to do shooters can come in to an environment they are not the majority and start dictating things.
Not once have I ever said they are even similar so don't know why you're trying this angle. I brung up MS cause they know the issue and so do other fps devs but hey go ahead another gaffer knows better than history or the industry. This is not cross play between consoles it's cross play between consoles vs pc, google it and save yourself trouble dreamcast and xbl are good start.
Never said you couldn't do such a thing with a tv. However there is nothing stop most of you whining about htpc situation and making something more practical to have a big screen and KB&M easy. Why should I decide where and how you sit you should accept that due that requirement you have you won't be able to use it easily. I never said anything about comfy couch read the post. You choose comfy couch you live with some of the things it causes you to lose in the pc spectrum.
I don't get what you mean on point 2. Are you saying that other FPS games don't have aimbot users?
I get that you can screw this up (apparently Crysis 2 allowed aim assistance to anyone who simply had a joypad connected?), but it's really not very difficult to prevent it. If anyone manages to apply the aim assistance to m+kb in a game where the developers haven't been stupid about it, then they could have just created an aimbot of their own anyway.
Insanity of the decision aside, how does this make sense from a numbers perspective? What percentage of shooter players on PC play with a controller? I'm going to safely assume that it's a relatively small number, and that this concession is needlessly pissing off the PC shooter crowd for the sake of a few controller users.
The guns already have very little to no recoil. Now you want to add aim assist on top of that? I thought this game wanted to be quick to learn and hard to master?
it's very impractical to use M+KB on your couch or your recliner, where a controller shines the brightest.
The difference between this and what Microsoft was doing is that the default control method for consoles is a gamepad. Throwing in a KB/M user into that environment would disrupt it greatly and leave the average player at a huge disadvantage. Adding the auto aim from consoles to a PC game won't have the same effect in any way to PC users. We will still have an insane advantage over them regardless.Totally borked my point so I will correct and split up what I intended.
The problem isn't prevention, get this out of your head since we both know hacks will hacks. This makes it easier for hackers to have a place to start and considering it's source scripts will totally learn to abuse this. There can be no debate about what scripts in source do considering we have youtube videos of various hacks The point is it makes it easier for hacks to do such a thing.
Another main point that some on your side seem to be glossing over is the common excuse from hackers will use, I have a pad plugged in. Plenty of pc gamers have seen this excuse and in the end it creates a hostile environment, which it already somewhat can be in fps games, just lets people accuse more as well get an easier cover. Yes hacks will hack and admins will kick but in situations they aren't around it will just force people to choose side and be paranoid.
Last point as mentioned MS testing out why you don't mix these groups.
Sorry for the confusion.
Totally borked my point so I will correct and split up what I intended.
The problem isn't prevention, get this out of your head since we both know hacks will hacks. This makes it easier for hackers to have a place to start and considering it's source scripts will totally learn to abuse this. There can be no debate about what scripts in source do considering we have youtube videos of various hacks The point is it makes it easier for hacks to do such a thing.
Another main point that some on your side seem to be glossing over is the common excuse from hackers will use, I have a pad plugged in. Plenty of pc gamers have seen this excuse and in the end it creates a hostile environment, which it already somewhat can be in fps games, just lets people accuse more as well get an easier cover. Yes hacks will hack and admins will kick but in situations they aren't around it will just force people to choose side and be paranoid.
Last point as mentioned MS testing out why you don't mix these groups.
Sorry for the confusion.
MS tested that they didn't want crossplay because controller players were worse? But if the auto-aim makes it easier, then they'll be able to compete with M+KB...
Practically every FPS PC game launches with some type of controller support. TF2 even patched in controller support way before they had all that Steam Big Picture stuff too. People have been using controls for PC games for a while.
Also, Pads can affect shooters, but why does this matter in the case of Titanfall, a game already releasing for Xbox 360 and Xbox One. Do you want every FPS to cater to you?
Go look up Shadowrun dude. that game literally has cross-play between XBL and PC. And nowehre in my post did I ever mention cross play between 2 consoles, only consoles and PCs, but you can just make up something if that's what floats your boat
this is literally asinine. You know there's a large, growing contingent of pc players that have a HTPC of some sort. I would gather that none of those people have that huge TV on a desk. Because unfortunately, that would make absolutely no sense. I much like practically every other person in this ever growing contingency of gamers have this set up in front of our couch/recliner because that makes logical sense.
Now, we could all lug our TV's to our desks, which may or may not fit the TV, and use the TV like a monitor, but there's a much simpler option, and it's what the Titanfall devs are doing.
and the best part is that this literally does not affect you, the Titanfall M+KB player in any way!
MS tested that they didn't want crossplay because controller players were worse? But if the auto-aim makes it easier, then they'll be able to compete with M+KB...
I built a tabletop that sits on the rests of my arm chair. I kick my feet up and use my setup on the TV, but I had planed on doing it like this for a while. Works for me and its very comfortable.
How much work is the controller doing for them exactly? You are really comparing this to aimbotting on PC?]They'll be able to 'compete' by having the computer do work for them[/B]. Something that is associated with hacking on the PC platform. Do you see how this is as much a philosophical question as it is a practical one?
Why don't we make Titanfall cross-platform while we're at it.
They'll be able to 'compete' by having the computer do work for them. Something that is associated with hacking on the PC platform. Do you see how this is as much a philosophical question as it is a practical one?
Why don't we make Titanfall cross-platform while we're at it.
Did you know that when you move your mouse it's "letting the computer do work for you"
And even if it is associated with hacking, what does this have anything to do with something built into the game. Is it suddenly hacking if i use something in the game.
I would personally like Titanfall to be cross platform, but MS don't do shit like that anymore
hell, you can't even do crossplay between 360 and Xbox One,
My mouse is doing only what I tell it to. Auto Aim does things for me that I can't as a player. There's a difference.
If something is built into the game as a shortcut that fundamentally cheapens the core game mechanic for the sake of pleasing a small percentage of players, it shouldn't be there in the first place. Why do no other games have this? Because it's heretical to even suggest it. No one is that stupid/audacious. I guess Respawn is.
I could understand if the guns had recoil and seemingly were hard to use. They aren't. Not even slightly.
There is no way this doesn't get emulated, modded, or otherwise hacked so that you can have KB+M+Aim assist. It's going to be a mess.
Did you miss my post where I talked about using my pad in cs at times with another user? This is not the problem so get it to your thick skull. Some of us do not want aim assists, pad players can join just not with assists. The pad isn't and will never be the problem it's the aim assist and what they do to communities this mechanic has shown up in.
Go look at my post were we talked about shadowrun how keep missing things in my posts is beyond me when some of it is clear as day. Hell shadowrun and crysis 2 are why I don't like this mechanic.
Tv's can be huge but they are also light and check certain gaf threads people do setups with their desks. So either you're ignorant or making a troll point. The whole market of using tv's to pc is big and I welcome it what I don't welcome is devs poorly implementing such a mechanic and expecting some of us not to be a little annoyed at the inevitable result.
Actually it does effect me and has effected plenty of others I mentioned the social aspect of what it does to servers. You can google that and see I'm not making it up.
With an advantage that most pc fps players don't want face someone with such a mechanic. Are you against us filtering you out such players? Is there the ability to turn it off I use pads to and sorry I hate assist. Overall this is just one big grab at a certain crowd that won't make up the bulk of the audience on the pc platform. Personally I don't care at a certain point but if I get mixed and have to deal with this just like others I'm walking to another title rather than dealing with this.
I wasn't making a slippery slope argument. I was saying that making an allowance for controller players to make them more competitive is a design decision that reflects the opinion that the playing field should be made level when it isn't.
But as long as I'm being smug...
A slippery slope argument says that if thing A is allowed to happen, then there is nothing to prevent B (and C and so on) from happening.
A valid slippery slope argument says that this is true due to the logic or reason that has allowed A to happen in the first place.
A fallacious slippery slope argument says that this is true based on either incomplete logic or no logic at all. Often fallacious slippery slope arguments rely on superficial connections between A and B, as in "if we allow gay people to marry, we must allow children to marry!".
Therefore, pointing out that people's arguments are slippery slopes is kind of silly by itself as it is certainly possible for a slippery slope argument to be valid.
The second you start making allowances for people who intentionally handicap themselves you destroy any hint of an idea of the game being suitable for competitive play. It enforces the idea that the playing field should be level even for those who have made no attempt to level it, which is the antithesis of competitive.
Tonnes of people love the idea of being able to "compete" with no skills or abilities whatsoever, so that's fine. I'll stick to Quake though.
My mouse is doing only what I tell it to. Auto Aim does things for me that I can't as a player. There's a difference.
If something is built into the game as a shortcut that fundamentally cheapens the core game mechanic for the sake of pleasing a small percentage of players, it shouldn't be there in the first place. Why do no other games have this? Because it's heretical to even suggest it. No one is that stupid/audacious. I guess Respawn is.
I could understand if the guns had recoil and seemingly were hard to use. They aren't. Not even slightly.
There is no way this doesn't get emulated, modded, or otherwise hacked so that you can have KB+M+Aim assist. It's going to be a mess.
also, why is it even heretical to implement this. Am I fucking saying something against the god emperor of mankind or some shit. it's heretical because you have a persectuion complex that you think PC gaming is slowly dying and all these new games are terrible abominations that only Quake 1 can save you from.
let's completely ignore that people love to use aim bots
but of course, that never happens in PC FPS!
also, why is it even heretical to implement this. Am I fucking saying something against the god emperor of making or some shit. it's heretical because you have a persectuion complex that you think PC gaming is slowly dying and all these new games are terrible abominations that only Quake 1 can save you from.
PC gamers do just fine though.Seriously, that would be an unmitigated disaster. Imagine the platforms wars, only on an actual battlefield and with one side having massive advantages in resolution, framerate and input accuracy.
I think things would get pretty unfriendly pretty quickly.
Those people tend to get banned. Great argument for aim assist.
I don't think there's anything radical about wanting to keep input a 1:1 situation on the PC. Aim assist in any form compromises that.
Totally borked my point so I will correct and split up what I intended.
The problem isn't prevention, get this out of your head since we both know hacks will hacks. This makes it easier for hackers to have a place to start and considering it's source scripts will totally learn to abuse this. There can be no debate about what scripts in source do considering we have youtube videos of various hacks The point is it makes it easier for hacks to do such a thing.
Another main point that some on your side seem to be glossing over is the common excuse from hackers will use, I have a pad plugged in. Plenty of pc gamers have seen this excuse and in the end it creates a hostile environment, which it already somewhat can be in fps games, just lets people accuse more as well get an easier cover. Yes hacks will hack and admins will kick but in situations they aren't around it will just force people to choose side and be paranoid.
Last point as mentioned MS testing out why you don't mix these groups.
Sorry for the confusion.
Here is a vid explaining CoD auto aim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSdi31Qpx2E&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Hehe, looking over my post again, it looks like I screwed my point up too!
When I said 'prevent', I didn't really mean in the sense of something like PunkBuster (that still exist? I've been gone a while lol) attempting to prevent the use of hacks. What I meant was that something like Crysis 2 confusing someone playing with a joypad, with someone simply playing with a joypad connected, is a really silly situation to allow to happen. A mouse uses relative displacement whilst a stick provide absolute displacements at each frame. The data for this would be so easily discernable that a game should not be able to fail at deducing whether or not to assist with aim. Even an insanely simple check such as ensuring the displacement doesn't exceed the maximum range of the joypad should rule this out.
This isn't even very important though, because of what console aim assistance generally means. Aim cheats on PC generally come in two varieties, lock on, and auto shot. Lock on would be like Z-targeting in something like Zelda or Metroid Prime, and auto shot would be when you gun fires automatically when placed over a target. What Titanfall is likely to offer would be neither of these. You'd get a dynamic sensitivity, that slows down as you approach your target, as seen here:
I don't know what Crysis 2 or Shadowrun were doing, but this sort of implementation would both:
a) Not be very helpful at all to someone using a mouse.
b) Couldn't possibly be confused for the two forms of aiming cheats mentioned above.
I do somewhat understand your point about paranoia of people cheating however, seeing as how many people in this thread seem to assume that this sort of aim assistance would actually be desirable for a mouse user.
Lastly, I am well aware of what can happen when you mix console players and PC players. I originally started Quake 3 on the Dreamcast using a joypad, against PC players running the game at more than four times the FPS, with higher FOV, mouse aiming, and binds. It was a complete massacre lol. I don't think giving joypad players some small sensitivity adjustments would have harmed the game in any way at all. Now if that aim assistance is more like Perfect Dark where the character automatically shoots pretty much anything they can see... then yea, it'd be a problem.
Thats why Valve invented a new controllerusually when an input cant handle something that you want to do you improve your input method, but for some reason consoles are in bizarro world where instead of solving the problem, you just alter everything around it so it doesn't seem like a problem anymore.
Time to break out the Dualshock 4.
I'm sorry, but that thing just feels so right.
It's a trade off between comfort and usability. I don't know what world you come from, but in our world some people do care about comfort.usually when an input cant handle something that you want to do you improve your input method, but for some reason consoles are in bizarro world where instead of solving the problem, you just alter everything around it so it doesn't seem like a problem anymore.
It's not really about "competitively viable" as in "played in tournaments"; there are plenty of games that I would not take seriously enough to play in a tournament but that I can at least take seriously on an ad hoc basis and enjoy (Mount and Blade, for example). Something like this goes a long way towards preventing even that from being possible.
Playing an FPS on a joypad without any auto aim is just not a great experience for 99% of people.
Hehe, looking over my post again, it looks like I screwed my point up too!
When I said 'prevent', I didn't really mean in the sense of something like PunkBuster (that still exist? I've been gone a while lol) attempting to prevent the use of hacks. What I meant was that something like Crysis 2 confusing someone playing with a joypad, with someone simply playing with a joypad connected, is a really silly situation to allow to happen. A mouse uses relative displacement whilst a stick provide absolute displacements at each frame. The data for this would be so easily discernable that a game should not be able to fail at deducing whether or not to assist with aim. Even an insanely simple check such as ensuring the displacement doesn't exceed the maximum range of the joypad should rule this out.
This isn't even very important though, because of what console aim assistance generally means. Aim cheats on PC generally come in two varieties, lock on, and auto shot. Lock on would be like Z-targeting in something like Zelda or Metroid Prime, and auto shot would be when you gun fires automatically when placed over a target. What Titanfall is likely to offer would be neither of these. You'd get a dynamic sensitivity, that slows down as you approach your target, as seen here:
IIRC, Shadowrun actually handicapped the mouse controls to get that parity.^^^^
Great post
Shadowrun practically had Halo aim assist, but even then the best players still were on par with the best M+KB player (from what i've heard)
Crysis 2 has been one example of very bad developers not thinking things through.
Normally this wouldn't be an issue. However these aren't console games what you mention applies to another platform that basically exist because pad players need such assists. This is a pc topic and certain norms are expected in pc based version of a title. Despite how silly it is you have one of the most hacked engines and fps title coming from a publisher who has already borked another big FPS. They didn't manage hacks in BF4 and source is far more well known it won't take long before it happens there is no if in my book.
Betas and launch period are integral to an fps game especially with youtube and the like these days. A few comments is enough to make this game sink before it can ever take off. If this is badly implemented which source has plenty of exploitable holes even today the hacking types will sour things at the most important time. Also hacks are vastly improved from what you mentioned this isn't the last decade and you can do a lot with them. Don't believe me find a copy of cs source or go and go find many of the easily downloadable hacks that you let configure things so that you cannot be detected too easily. With toggling on and off it's very hard to spot certain hacks who know how to game a lot of legitimate players.
Another gaffer said it best it's not skill to face someone with assists and a lot of instances this isn't tolerated be it games or not. Yet in this case devs feel it necessary to mix people. Fine let those who want to mix do so let the purist have their titles and their own servers. Not saying it can be in the game but if it has no options to turn it off or to filter out people the writing is the on wall there is nothing else to what I'm saying.
Lastly a gaffer reminded me of XIM which basically deals with the problem you mentioned of translating something in a stick to a mouse it can be done and plenty of vids exist to show so. Things exist on the pc in the right circles that do the same without the hardware, especially for the source engine. What we are mentioning will happen.
IIRC, Shadowrun actually handicapped the mouse controls to get that parity.