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[Effigenius]

You are incorrectly assuming that one traded in game, 70% of the time, equals the purchase of one new game. Usually you might have to trade in 2 or more games (Depending on value) to buy one new game. You are also not taking into account that without used games, most of the used game buyers would change to new game buyers, though maybe less games bought, rather than dropping out of buying games all together.

Equating a house to entertainment products is ridiculous.



They kept doing it because they knew it was going to crash and they wanted to make the most money out of it while they could (GH vs RockBand). The used market won't crash left to its own devices, this is not a good comparison.

Did you not read your own post? I even bolded it for you.

I would agree that he neglects to look at how used game sales do (70% of the time I believe) go towards new games. Though this still short changes pubs/devs compared to no used game sales at all.

That was your quote, I used your figures when I 'incorrectly assumed' that. And it is you who are now assuming that most used game buyers would buy new. They are buying used because they don't see the value in paying full price. Buying a used game because blockbuster had a buy one get one free does not mean they'd shell out $60 to buy it new. That is pure assumption. Sure some would, but enough to make up for all the losses? I tend to think not overall. For the call of duties, yes. For the beyond good and evils? No.

As for the guitar hero thing, you are speculating what would have happened if they hadn't over saturated the market. I disagree, and would site that dance games do fine and benefit from not being as over saturated. In any case, all we can look at is what actually happened. They absolutely flooded the market due to publisher greed and the genre died.

 

[spirity]

I had never heard of this situation, so I Google'd it and put together a few links so people can draw their own conclusion. No idea if I'm missing any important details or links.

http://asia.gamespot.com/starcraft-...s/total-biscuit-mlg-dallas-interview-6405616/ (PS2 Sponsorship with his/his wife's SC2 team, Axiom)

https://www.planetside2.com/news/total-biscuit-e3-announcement



Honestly I don't think this sponsorship counts him as a "shill" when he has a video named Planetside 2 Critique. What's wrong with it so far?. Seems fairly objective to me.

He wasn't shilling. He was promoting it.

Promoting =\= shilling

A shill isn't announced to the public, and everyone pretty much knew about TB promoting the game. He actually did go on to post a video criticizing the game DURING his contract with them though, because his fans requested it. I'm pretty sure deals like that with him are pretty rare, and are always announced (like the video he did for Guns of Icarus with the TGS folks).

EDIT: Also, Antitrop beat me to it with links

Gotcha, thanks guys. It was something I picked up from earlier in the thread when it got mentioned, I wasn't aware of the details.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

Aaaand unsubscribed. Not that it matters, but jeez I never thought he would be such a huge prick.

I mean I knew he was, well, in his own world, but those Twitter quotes? Damn.

 

[morch]

Kindle and other ebook services are cheaper than print copies, not just because it's cheaper to distribute, but less people will read that copy as people are less likely to lend their kindle and they can't sell back that ebook.

for most of the books i read, i've found many cases where the kindle version costs more than the paperback version... over time the kindle version drops more and becomes lower i find but the only real difference is kindle has convenience and about 30-50p cheaper per book eventually. In exchange for no trade in or lending, I often give my books to friends when I'm finished for free though

 

[UnblessedSoul]

PC games are very different from consoles, without used games for consoles people will buy less not more, they also have very different price points per game

 

[Ploid 3.0]

This guy is something else, wow at those tweets.

 

[HK-47]

It's a mutual beneficial relationship. He only really coves indie games and gives them more attention, he's got like 1million+ subscribers now, that's a big audience to introduce a game they may of never heard of.

I see him do plenty of AAA games, he does quick looks of most new pc releases.

 

[UrbanRats]

Not every person with a shit opinion has been bought, for fuck's sake.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

I see him do plenty of AAA games, he does quick looks of most new pc releases.

Yes, the "indie only" thing he got going is not really true anymore.

 

[Toppot]

I agree. The games industry should be a fair system. I vote for a free market system where the definitions of "purchase" and "ownership" are clear and unambiguous. These concepts are foundational to capitalism, which is the most fair form of commerce that we have found. It is corrosive to a market for the concept of property to be subject to an uncertainty principal. Transactions need to be clear. Do I own this thing or not? Is it a particle or a wave? Property or a service? Is the cat alive or dead?

Creating laws to regulate markets isn't some simple tit for tat. You don't take turns, alternating between siding with the different parties. The goal is to create the simplest system that allows the free flow of goods. It will never be perfect and somebody will always argue that something isn't "fair". Instead of freaking out and micromanaging every single complaint, you should step back and view the system as a whole. Is it healthy?

And the games industry is perfectly healthy. Revenue is growing. The market has shown sufficient plasticity. There are more games available than there where 5 years ago, 10 years ago, or 20 years ago and the average game is of a higher quality. Games are more polished, better crafted, and more diverse. Yes, some publishers are failing, but that is a good thing. Can you imagine how bad it would be for an industry if there was never any turn over? We need companies to rise and fall. The friction is what causes innovation and progress.

There is no moral imperative for consumers to prop up a company just because it is having difficulty continuing to grow at the exponential rate to which it has been accustomed.
Companies serve consumers, not the other way around.

If Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo really wanted to destroy used games or hurt Gamestop, it could. By competing. They could actually offer download games at a discount from retail and offer extremely attractive trade ins for those digital games. They could create their own ecosystem and compete. But they don't, because they value their retailer relationships too much, because consumers value the clear concepts of "ownership" and "purchase" that the retail environment provides.

I agree more needs to be done to clarify ownership in a digital video game world.

You make a lot of good points =]

Did you not read your own post? I even bolded it for you.
That was your quote, I used your figures when I 'incorrectly assumed' that. And it is you who are now assuming that most used game buyers would buy new. They are buying used because they don't see the value in paying full price. Buying a used game because blockbuster had a buy one get one free does not mean they'd shell out $60 to buy it new. That is pure assumption. Sure some would, but enough to make up for all the losses? I tend to think not overall. For the call of duties, yes. For the beyond good and evils? No.

As for the guitar hero thing, you are speculating what would have happened if they hadn't over saturated the market. I disagree, and would site that dance games do fine and benefit from not being as over saturated. In any case, all we can look at is what actually happened. They absolutely flooded the market due to publisher greed and the genre died.

70% is fine, of the 100,000 hypothetical used games. But 70,000 used games traded in towards new games, doesn't mean 70,000 new games are bought using the 70,000 used games. You'd be looking at around 30,000 new games bought using 70,000 used games.

for most of the books i read, i've found many cases where the kindle version costs more than the paperback version... over time the kindle version drops more and becomes lower i find but the only real difference is kindle has convenience and about 30-50p cheaper per book eventually. In exchange for no trade in or lending, I often give my books to friends when I'm finished for free though

There are also lots of books that are a couple of quid cheaper on Kindle, look at Top paid sellers for kindle and you will find loads.

 

[MegaKungFuRadio]

I think people take Total Biscuit way too seriously. Especially Total Biscuit.

 

[diamount]

I see him do plenty of AAA games, he does quick looks of most new pc releases.

Never said he didn't AAA games but the bulk of his coverage are AAA, simply because there aren't that many AAA's in comparison.

 

[jim2point0]

I think people take Total Biscuit way too seriously. Especially Total Biscuit.

Well, I don't think he takes himself too seriously. He's just opinionated, and sometimes he posts those opinions regardless as to whether or not he should. Personally I think he has a few too many eyes on him to be posting some of the things he does on Twitter, but at the end of the day, that stuff isn't going to matter too much. He gets subscriptions mostly for the videos he does. The amount of people unsubscribing because of his opinions is probably a drop in the bucket.

I just like the videos he makes for games I might otherwise not give a try. Like The Swapper. I'm intrigued. I'm definitely going to grab that one.

 

[Fixed1979]

Looks like Cliffy just found out about the video. Now everyone just shut up and accept it.

 

[spirity]

No surprise that Cliffy B would agree. His petulance, lol.

 

[PenaltyMan]

"I get my games for free so shut up and pay full retail each time plebs"
totalbiscuitlogic.txt

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Was Cliff always like this? And lol at an LPer of all people trying to lecture others about what publishers deserve to make money off of. I certainly hope he wasn't part of the crowd that was upset about Nintendo wanting to place ads on LP videos of their games.

 

[JDSN]

Theres a real irony of someone making a point to share videos that has someone that loathes that practice.

 

[jakonovski]

It's kind of weird, MS and Sony are acting out of corporate greed, a known known that can be dealt with (as evidenced by the Twitter campaign). But people like TB and CliffyB? They have an incredible sense of entitlement that really doesn't care about, well, anything.

 

[2San]

It's kind of weird, MS and Sony are acting out of corporate greed, a known known that can be dealt with (as evidenced by the Twitter campaign). But people like TB and CliffyB? They have an incredible sense of entitlement that really doesn't care about, well, anything.

Well one is someone who gets payed to play games and the other is one that can afford anything in life. They hardly understand the life of the broke gamer. :\

 

[Psi]

It's kind of weird, MS and Sony are acting out of corporate greed, a known known that can be dealt with (as evidenced by the Twitter campaign). But people like TB and CliffyB? They have an incredible sense of entitlement that really doesn't care about, well, anything.

Their success has probably destroyed most of their empathy for gamers. They live in a different world.

 

[Shai-Tan]

It's kind of weird, MS and Sony are acting out of corporate greed, a known known that can be dealt with (as evidenced by the Twitter campaign). But people like TB and CliffyB? They have an incredible sense of entitlement that really doesn't care about, well, anything.

Or they came to different conclusions because they made different assumptions than you. Learn to use a little charity and you might have an honest exchange of ideas.

 

[Rodney McKay]

Or they came to different conclusions because they made different assumptions than you. Learn to use a little charity and you might have an honest exchange of ideas.

That would require TB to do the same, and based off some of his twitter responses that doesn't sound like something that's happening anytime soon.

He is utterly convinced that his view is the correct one and will not listen to a single word otherwise (actively blocking people who are trying to have discussions with him).

 

[Scherzo]

I think there's a sort of undeniable truth to the fact that used games will more or less become a thing of the past (barring resell of digital media becoming a thing); the problem I think is two-fold: one is the utter confusion and lack of confidence MS has had in putting forward their DRM policy which to me shows they have really no idea themsleves how they expect it to work, and second, as others have pointed out, I have very little faith MS, with its slavish infatuation with old (and tightly closed) media as shown by Xbox One reveal, will have a consumer-friendly digital model. I have much more faith in Sony in that regard.

I do understand that something should be 'done' about Used Sales; I honestly felt Online Passes were a reasonable way for publishers to recoup on money lost on used sales. The difference between video games and DVDs is that DVDs, on a whole, are an ancillary market; you've already made your big money at the Box Office so its a chance to make some more money off of fans of the movie. And with Used Cars you have the common practice of the dealerships being licensed by the car manufacturers to sell pre-owned cars. So I don't think publishers wanting to get a cut of GS's Used Game profits is inherently wrong. Anyway you slice it though the future doesn't look bright for Gamestop as business switches toward all digital.

What I think people like TotalBiscuit don't get, though, is the appeal of 'ownership', physical or otherwise. As much as we all love Steam, the fact is it's just as much DRM as Origin. Sure you can play it on as many PC's you own as you like, but the games themselves have no retail value because you cannot actually give them or sell them to anyone else. In effect, with steam you're buying a license to play that game, and while its a pretty generous license, since you can't transfer or sell it anyway its a license all the same.

Console gaming hasn't been like that. You buy a game and that game is yours, your property. You can sell it or give it to whoever you want to. That's something we're accustomed to, it's part of our culture as console gamers. Maybe we need to eventually accept that physical media is on the way out, but that doesn't give TB the right to be so flippant about it. Even going all Digital won't solve the property debate, as the EU courts have recently ruled that you can resell digital media you purchase, so digital rights are going to be an ongoing debate for years, if not decades, to come. But to dismiss the entire issue of property rights out of hand, like TotalBiscuit does, to me speaks to a position of privilege that's out of touch with how most gamers operate. Just because he doesn't care that he doesn't own his 'own' games doesn't make it stupid that the rest of us do.

 

[AlimNassor]

"oh no you let your friend borrow your game! You are a pirate!"-developer logic. I can let my friends borrow anything I own, even my house, but, games? Nope, that makes you a pirate!

 

[Zomba13]

"oh no you let your friend borrow your game! You are a pirate!"-developer logic. I can let my friends borrow anything I own, even my house, but, games? Nope, that makes you a pirate!

And then those same devs call us entitled.

 

[Broder Salsa]

Looks like Cliffy just found out about the video. Now everyone just shut up and accept it.

Yeah that settles it...

 

[Grief.exe]

"oh no you let your friend borrow your game! You are a pirate!"-developer logic. I can let my friends borrow anything I own, even my house, but, games? Nope, that makes you a pirate!

More likely to be publisher logic.

 

[jtb]

I think the used-game debacle is kind of missing the point since DD is an inevitability and there ain't no resale on that. I guess Microsoft wanted to jump the gun though.

 

[kevinski]

I was just thinking about this, and I'm curious as to whether Microsoft might just be onto something with its Xbox One approach. I'm not so much referring to the restrictions on used games as I am the diversification of its properties across mediums. If certain forms of entertainment have business models that don't have the downsides that gaming's business models do, then maybe creating all sorts of first-party content for television makes a lot of sense.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Looks like Cliffy just found out about the video. Now everyone just shut up and accept it.

Hes worked with video games for a long time. He has made video games that sold well. He probably knows more than a lot of us would.

 

[Tellaerin]

Yeah that settles it...

I used to respect CliffyB. Since his retirement, he's just become an embarassment.

 

[phunky420]

I used to respect CliffyB. Since his retirement, he's just become an embarassment.

He has always been pro game developer. You think he was somehow pro consumer? He wanted to become a game developer and has lived the life. He understands the business side of it all. What point of view would you expect him to have? You expect him to care about the unwashed masses who want to keep their silly game rights? (Yes...they are silly...i could give 2 shits about used games)

 

[Tellaerin]

He has always been pro game developer. You think he was somehow pro consumer? He wanted to become a game developer and has lived the life. He understands the business side of it all. What point of view would you expect him to have? You expect him to care about the unwashed masses who want to keep their silly game rights? (Yes...they are silly...i could give 2 shits about used games)

There was a time when Epic made a habit of releasing free DLC for their titles to maintain interest and support the community. Nowadays Cliffy strikes me as the kind of guy who'd argue against practices like that and would consider it "leaving money on the table".

It is possible to be a developer without coming off like an aggressively anti-consumer douche.

 

[KTGarda]

If the all-digital future is really so inevitable, why are these companies so adamant about happening right now? What's so broken in the industry that it can't continue as it has pre-seventh generation until the glorious cloud delivers them their promised wealth?

 

[DirtyLary]

When I go to Gamespot they actively try and push a used game over a new game. Explain to me how that doesn't hurt publisher and developers?

Bingo. If paying full price for games insures devs don't go out of business and we get quality games, I'm all for it.

 

[Facism]

Bingo. If paying full price for games insures devs don't go out of business and we get quality games, I'm all for it.

it doesn't ensure any of those things.

 

[xJavonta]

Theres a real irony of someone making a point to share videos that has someone that loathes that practice.

Lol this.

Damnit CliffyB, I mean its getting harder to respect you. I usually agree with your opinions, but defending this idiot is just... ugh.

 

[MomoPufflet]

Cliffyb can't see any reality outside his insulated life as a super AAA developer wonderboy. He's talented but he has his head so goddamn far up his own ass.

 

[codhand]

.

 

[KarmaCow]

http://www.abload.de/img/untitledsjkiz.png[IMG]

.[/QUOTE]

It is annoying when people are so far up their own ass that they can't see it.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

And once again he proves that he can't spell.

 

[Goldmund]

And once again he proves that he can't spell.

If he had spoken it, though, he would have enunciated every word beautifully.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Heh "Who's to say the PS4 won't have similar DRM?!" Oh dear me.

 

[Evolution_1ne]

this is the guy that made me want to play Warframe, that is all

 

[Audioboxer]

.

Tears. Tears everywhere.

 

[Radec]

Please stop talking about this annoying guy.

He's better off forgotten here at Gaf.

 

[SanguineShark]

He's honestly not that bad of a guy, not from what I've seen. However, like all of us, he has character flaws...and can't admit when he's wrong. He made a flawed argument and is sticking to it, because he can't own up to the mistake.

Doesn't mean he's terrible, just means he's not perfect. He's done *some* good things for gaming as a whole, such as bringing exposure to many indie titles that desperately needed it.


With that said, it's still disappointing to see him act this way. I suppose he feels backed into a corner with most people flinging rage in his direction.

 

[Archie]

.

He should be the last person to ever complain about self congratulatory masturbation.

 

[Alpende]

He's honestly not that bad of a guy, not from what I've seen. However, like all of us, he has character flaws...and can't admit when he's wrong. He made a flawed argument and is sticking to it, because he can't own up to the mistake.

Doesn't mean he's terrible, just means he's not perfect. He's done *some* good things for gaming as a whole, such as bringing exposure to many indie titles that desperately needed it.


With that said, it's still disappointing to see him act this way. I suppose he feels backed into a corner with most people flinging rage in his direction.

Agreed on that, I never watched his videos but when I see those recommendations pop up he usually plays indie titles. So that's good.

He should have just admitted he was wrong and now he generates even more hate.