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[brain_stew]

anti aliassing and better textures

No, its been mentioned but the texturing really isn't all that impressive nowadays. There's places, like Andy's back yard, that use textures that wouldn't look out of place in a PS2 title and a whole host of surfaces don't have any texture mapping whatsoever.

I didn't realise GAF was filled with a bunch of IQ whores but that really must be it, as, along with the polygon count and motion blur, its the only real thing that modern titles aren't doing better than Toy Story.

 

[zaccheus]

If you're talking purely artistic STYLE, then I guess you could say toystory was surpassed, but the amount of polygons Toy Story has rendering at a time? No fucking way. I don't know if the people here just don't know anything, but games use all kinds of tricks and shortcuts to cut down the amount of polys on a model compared to the ones in a feature film.

 

[sleeping_dragon]

Pretty much any racing game released in the last 5 years will be capable of getting closer to that "CGI look" than GT5 for the simple fact that you can pump as much IQ onto it as you want.

Something like GRID has much more complex lighting and shading to boot as well.

hahahaah, u are joking right? wait let me get this straight? you are saying that Grid's lighting is better than GT5 lighting? :lol :lol

 

[kinggroin]

What are you talking about? The only surfaces in Toy Story that have any sort of depth to them look universally horrible (see: the Dino's skin). Most surfaces in TS have a basic specular map on top of their fairly high resolution (though still lower resolution than Crysis) texture maps but that's about it, no normal mapping, no subsurface scattering, no nothing, just a plain old texture map, heck many surfaces aren't even textured. The texturing in Crysis is way, way beyond Toy Story, its not even close.

Right. So let's go back to what --->I<--- was responding to:

From a technical standpoint, Crysis on very high looks better than Toy Story in every respect and does not suffer from textures looking flat

I can post the very best pictures of what the CE2 or even CE3 engine have to offer. Even in the best pics, the game or renders, suffer from surfaces scattered all over the fucking place that look flat as a board and completely out of place.

So that said, where the heck did I bring up Toy Story textures?

Is it? The bump mapping on the dinosaur toy looks like shit. Toy Story is not the holy grail video games should be aiming for.

You're right. I'll never again say games technology should aim for Toy Story visuals ever again.

 

[WordAssassin]

A Crack in Time. No arguments.

I just saw the double feature and I don't ever remember this scene from either movie. Is it from one of those little Toy Story interstitials they did for ABC?

 

[msdstc]

[IG]http://www.e-moka.net/contenuti/images/debian_toy_story/big/sid-2.jpg[/IMG]
[IG]http://qsf5.com/wp-content/uploads/gallery/e3-2009-uncharted-2/uncharted-2-01.jpg[/IMG]

thankfully pixar has improved their modelling a bunch since then.

Usually Mr. Negativity is a litle more realistic. This is a misrepresentation. First off that's from a cutscene, which is prerendered with some added effects if I remember properly, not to say it's much more impressive then the actual game, but there is a clear difference between cutscenes and the actual game.

Second off this picture helps prove my point. Compare him with Woody or Buzz. Drakes straps are somewhat blurred and not rendered smoothly. His shirt textures are good, but still not nearly the cloth material in Toy story. His hair looks incredible for games, but is clearly faked, even Sids hair looks better here in this narrow comparison.

I'm not trying to be the negative one here, I'm just being realistic. Uncharted is a stunning video game, leagues better than any other console game, both in visuals and in presentation. It's acually a bit upsetting, because I don't know when another game will match it, other developers have a lot of catching up to do. That being said Toy Story is still at least a generation away.

 

[kinggroin]

Could you point me to a scene where the bolded items surpass CE2, as I just watched the movie last nigh and I'm not seeing any. You can get Crysis to use SSAA to get you Pixar level image quality as well btw.

We are still talking realtime right? Even with enthusiast settings, the GAME Crysis (not the engine) does not impress me as much as even the first TS movie does. I still run in to shitty looking 2d grass, terrible clipping, horrific animations, low poly everything, flat textures abound, and even "off" - looking lighting. So to say "Very High" looks better is a complete and fucking joke to me. One still looks like a videogame and the other doesn't.

Crysis attemps to present us with something thats much more ambitious than Pixar's movie (which mostly takes place in small areas with controlled variables) so it has a larger load, but as they both stand, I find less visual issues with Toy Story than I do with Crysis. Though Crysis is a much better representative of the tech for it's format (videogames), than Toy Story is for CG films.


We're really going to have to agree to disagree on this one brain.

I didn't realise GAF was filled with a bunch of IQ whores but that really must be it, as, along with the polygon count and motion blur, its the only real thing that modern titles aren't doing better than Toy Story.

While I disagree on the bolded, let's not pretend that poly count, IQ, and motion blur are insignificant things to making a CG image look realistic (heck, motion blur alone takes a game like Crysis to a whole new level of visuals). You of all people should appreciate all the IQ "whores".

 

[Lord Error]

Usually Mr. Negativity is a litle more realistic. This is a misrepresentation. First off that's from a cutscene, which is prerendered with some added effects if I remember properly, not to say it's much more impressive then the actual game, but there is a clear difference between cutscenes and the actual game.

Not sure about that particular picture, but plenty of shorter cutscenes in the game are rendered fully realtime, and when they are, they do look pretty much exactly like the video recorded ones, and the framerate doesn't suffer at all. I don't think this should be a point of contention. They can clearly render any of these cutscenes in real time, but they made a decision not to do so for those longer ones, to prevent any loading needed for them.

Second off this picture helps prove my point.

Again the things that you point are true to a degree, even though I could easily argue the hair and texture quality in general (and besides, there's a lot more multitexturing and much higher quality normal/parallax mapping going in UC2 than TS had), but I think they are heavily outweighed by the way the overall thing looks. The image quality of course TS has the big advantage, but if you watch both on a smaller TV it won't matter that much (most people remember TS from a 480i DVD after all) and then there's motion blur, but again UC2 in particular has pretty amazing implementation of this, much better done in full game actually than in that early beta that I was posting pictures from once.

 

[msdstc]

We are still talking realtime right? Even with enthusiast settings, the GAME Crysis (not the engine) does not impress me as much as even the first TS movie does. I still run in to shitty looking 2d grass, terrible clipping, horrific animations, low poly everything, flat textures abound, and even "off" - looking lighting. So to say "Very High" looks better is a complete and fucking joke to me. One still looks like a videogame and the other doesn't.

Crysis attemps to present us with something thats much more ambitious than Pixar's movie (which mostly takes place in small areas with controlled variables) so it has a larger load, but as they both stand, I find less visual issues with Toy Story than I do with Crysis. Though Crysis is a much better representative of the tech for it's format (videogames), than Toy Story is for CG films.


We're really going to have to agree to disagree on this one brain.

While I disagree on the bolded, let's not pretend that poly count, IQ, and motion blur are insignificant things to making a CG image look realistic (heck, motion blur alone takes a game like Crysis to a whole new level of visuals). You of all people should appreciate all the IQ "whores".

Thank you! There is so much going on in games that can impress me, but at the same time there are so many things on the side or in the background, or even on the main path, that just look lousy. There's just not enough power available to render everything with high res textures, smooth rounded polygons, etc.

Even that R+C picture. It looks amazing... for a game. Are we looking at two different things though? Toy story is still far ahead. First things first, Woody and Buzz models. Looks at the spaces in buzz's feet, which are all rendered in 3d, same with his buttons and the shape of his suit. Ratchets suit isn't nearly as smooth or complex as buzzes alone, especially where the joints meet and all the other little things like his shoulder and elbow sockets. although the hair trick they did looks great. You have woody with the weaving on his hat, his badge, his vest, his belt, and the joint in his arm, which is true to real life. And even look past those things, look at the blanket on the bed, the perfectly rendered blocks in the background, the pillow on the bed. If you look quickly it's fairly close... in motion it's not, and looking at the fine details not even remotely close.

 

[brain_stew]

hahahaah, u are joking right? wait let me get this straight? you are saying that Grid's lighting is better than GT5 lighting? :lol :lol

Technically? Yes, absolutely? Artistically? Well that's for you to decide, its personal preference.

 

[Lord Error]

Even that R+C picture. It looks amazing... for a game. Are we looking at two different things though? Toy story is still far ahead. First things first, Woody and Buzz models. Looks at the spaces in buzz's feet, which are all rendered in 3d, same with his buttons and the shape of his suit.

I'm pretty sure that picture is from TS2 period, and that movie already looked much better.

Technically? Yes, absolutely? Artistically? Well that's for you to decide, its personal preference.

What GT5 has going for it is the very high quality baked lightmaps used for cars, probably calculated using best available offline radiance algorithms or whatnot. No matter what realtime lighting GRID has or doesn't the final look won't be able to compare with that (and it doesn't - cars in GRID Look like fake crap compared to GT5) Keep in mind also that GT5 replays where 99.9% of these screens are coming from is also running at 30FPS, so it has some effects added there, like motion blur and better HDR.

 

[msdstc]

Not sure about that particular picture, but plenty of shorter cutscenes in the game are rendered fully realtime, and when they are, they do look pretty much exactly like the video recorded ones, and the framerate doesn't suffer at all. I don't think this should be a point of contention. They can clearly render any of these cutscenes in real time, but they made a decision not to do so for those longer ones, to prevent any loading needed for them.


Again the things that you point are true to a degree, even though I could easily argue the hair and texture quality in general (and besides, there's a lot more multitexturing and much higher quality normal/parallax mapping going in UC2 than TS had), but I think they are heavily outweighed by the way the overall thing looks. The image quality of course TS has the big advantage, but if you watch both on a smaller TV it won't matter that much (most people remember TS from a 480i DVD after all) and then there's motion blur, but again UC2 in particular has pretty amazing implementation of this, much better done in full game actually than in that early beta that I was posting pictures from once.

To your first part. I agree the in game cutscenes look incredible... however the pre-rendered ones or w/e they are (drakes gun is never what you're really holding in those cutscenes, they are absolutely not the same), those particular scenes have better animations obviously, because they are scripted, the lighting to me seems a lot better, particularly the boat scene in the beginning, and overall there's a film like quality to the whole thing. It definitely adds some nice effects whether you admit it or not, that is a fact.

To the second part, I'm not arguing IQ, obviously movies get the advantage there. I'm talking polygon count, animations, textures. Like I said a few posts up, look at all the buttons on Buzz's suit, look at his arm joints, the complexity of his suit is ridiculous... then look at Ratchets armor, and the guy he's talking to. It looks good, but it's pretty flat, and not nearly as smooth. It's just not even close. It's very nice, it's improving, it's advancing, but it's not yet Toy Story level.

edit-

I'm pretty sure that picture is from TS2 period, and that movie already looked much better.

Buzz's model was equally as complex in the first movie, same with Woody.

Complexity still there, detail, textures. Even the bed and the blanket.

 

[jett]

Technically? Yes, absolutely? Artistically? Well that's for you to decide, its personal preference.

Grid is an ugly, ugly game, even at 1080p on the PC which is how I experienced it. I don't really understand how can you say something like that. A disgusting abuse of bloom doesn't make the lighting better.

http://www.aeropause.com/wordpress/archives/images/2008/06/grid-2008-06-18-19-03-05-05.jpg

Seriously. That? THAT?

msdstc: I wasn't being entirely serious with that post, the point is that Toy Story is not that good looking these days. At all. This thread is not really about literally wanting games to look like Toy Story anymore(because fuck who would want that) but more about games one day achieving real-time radiosity, raytracing, and running at 4k resolutions with heaps of AA.

 

[Lord Error]

To your first part. I agree the in game cutscenes look incredible... however the pre-rendered ones or w/e they are (drakes gun is never what you're really holding in those cutscenes, they are absolutely not the same), those particular scenes have better animations obviously, because they are scripted, the lighting to me seems a lot better, particularly the boat scene in the beginning, and overall there's a film like quality to the whole thing. It definitely adds some nice effects whether you admit it or not, that is a fact.

I'll double check this, but there's couple of shorter cutscenes that I can remember now that looked pretty much 100% the same to me. Maybe not those where camera pulls back to your back eventually and you continue controlling the character, but that one for example in Nepal where someone opens some gate and they all go through it, and a couple more like that I remember seeing but can't remember where exactly now. I know I could only tell they weren't videos because there would be a faster switch between them and the gameplay right after (no split second fade to black in between like with videos)

But anyways, I understand your points, it's just that I don't think they prevail in the overall scope of things. It probably doesn't help that a lot of TS I remember is some of it's ugliest parts, like the way Andy and Sid look etc.

 

[brain_stew]

Grid is an ugly, ugly game, even at 1080p on the PC which is how I experienced it. I don't really understand how can you say something like that. A disgusting abuse of bloom doesn't make the lighting better.

Did I ever say I preferred the look of GRID to GT5!???

 

[jett]

Did I ever say I preferred the look of GRID to GT5!???

I just don't see how the lighting is technically better. It's completely unremarkable for me.

 

[sleeping_dragon]

Technically? Yes, absolutely? Artistically? Well that's for you to decide, its personal preference.

technically! no racing game stand a chance when it comes to GT5's HDR lighting and that include all the released racing sim on PC.

 

[msdstc]

msdstc: I wasn't being entirely serious with that post, the point is that Toy Story is not that good looking these days. At all. This thread is not really about literally wanting games to look like Toy Story anymore(because fuck who would want that) but more about games one day achieving real-time radiosity, raytracing, and running at 4k resolutions with heaps of AA.

I definitely see it as possible, but this gen is not even close. It's really not a subjective thing either, not trying to be an asshole, because sure people can have opinions, but on paper it's no even close.

 

[Ajemsuhgao]

http://spaghettioh.com/wp-content/review_mirrors_edge/mirrors_edge_rooftop.jpg
http://techgage.com/articles/graphic_cards/settings/jan_2009/mirrors_edge.jpg
http://spaghettioh.com/wp-content/review_mirrors_edge/mirrors_edge_scafolding.jpg

That looks better than anything in Toy Story. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

Ever look close at the shadows in that game? Clearly Unreal and clearly shitty...

 

[SapientWolf]

Ever look close at the shadows in that game? Clearly Unreal and clearly shitty...

Faith also has sharp knees.

 

[Ajemsuhgao]

Faith also has sharp knees.

Yeah probably.


On topic: "but more about games one day achieving real-time radiosity, raytracing, and running at 4k resolutions with heaps of AA. "

That is the only thing games need to catch up on. Model detail and texture resolution will be caught up to by next gen. And actually, games that don't have a ton of stuff going on have already caught up to the model detail part. MGS4 has extremely detailed models, and extremely high resolution textures(not quite sure about the texture part, but I've seen the models alone and..damn).

 

[Kandinsky]

Holy shit, some of you are fking blind:lol

 

[Trojita]

The animation of Toy Story is laugably easy to make compared to all of the work that goes into a video game. :lol

Your talking about something that is not in real time to something that is.

 

[msdstc]

Yeah probably.


On topic: "but more about games one day achieving real-time radiosity, raytracing, and running at 4k resolutions with heaps of AA. "

That is the only thing games need to catch up on. Model detail and texture resolution will be caught up to by next gen. And actually, games that don't have a ton of stuff going on have already caught up to the model detail part. MGS4 has extremely detailed models, and extremely high resolution textures(not quite sure about the texture part, but I've seen the models alone and..damn).

See that's still not true. I do wish more games focused less on scale, and more detailed smaller areas. But even games that do this like Heavy Rain are not on level with pixar... not even close really, especially the animations.

That being said, why not make a game like REmake on gamecube? With prerendered backgrounds?

That looks better than a ton of the current gen games even... The character models are ridiculous. There's no need to waste assets on objects in the background on a game like this. The pre rendered backgrounds add to the atmosphere of the game, and it's more focused on the survival of the character. Such a good game.

edit-

Holy shit, some of you are fking blind:lol

which side are you on?

 

[Ajemsuhgao]

See that's still not true. I do wish more games focused less on scale, and more detailed smaller areas. But even games that do this like Heavy Rain are not on level with pixar... not even close really, especially the animations.

That being said, why not make a game like REmake on gamecube? With prerendered backgrounds?

That looks better than a ton of the current gen games even... The character models are ridiculous. There's no need to waste assets on objects in the background on a game like this. The pre rendered backgrounds add to the atmosphere of the game, and it's more focused on the survival of the character. Such a good game.

edit- which side are you on?

Well. Character models in some current gen games are on par with Toy Story. Environment models, hell no. Probably not going to happen next gen, either.

 

[msdstc]

Well. Character models in some current gen games are on par with Toy Story. Environment models, hell no. Probably not going to happen next gen, either.

Seriously? I'm unaware of any game of the caliber... post some proof.

 

[Smash88]

wat? name me a car game on PC that can do GT5 graphics?

Dirt 2 for PC running DirectX11.

 

[Ajemsuhgao]

Seriously? I'm unaware of any game of the caliber... post some proof.

How detailed do you think Toy Story character models are...?

And...in terms of actual poly count, I don't believe any current gen games match Toy Story models, but Toy Story characters aren't that detailed, they're just smooth. Detail can be faked with good normal/displacement maps. Smoothing things out to catch up to 3D films will take at least another generation of consoles.

 

[msdstc]

How detailed do you think Toy Story character models are...?

And...in terms of actual poly count, I don't believe any current gen games match Toy Story models, but Toy Story characters aren't that detailed, they're just smooth. Detail can be faked with good normal/displacement maps. Smoothing things out to catch up to 3D films will take at least another generation of consoles.

I have a post above explaining why the models are better. The details on the characters are definitely better then those of current gen consoles. Like I said above, Buzz's suit, his joints, his butons, everythings rendered in 3d. Same with woody with hid badge and hat.

Of course they're smooth, but you kind of proved my point. No character models his gen can match the level of those in Toy Story, post pictures that prove otherwise.

 

[Ajemsuhgao]

I have a post above explaining why the models are better. The details on the characters are definitely better then those of current gen consoles. Like I said above, Buzz's suit, his joints, his butons, everythings rendered in 3d. Same with woody with hid badge and hat.

Of course they're smooth, but you kind of proved my point. No character models his gen can match the level of those in Toy Story, post pictures that prove otherwise.

All those little details in Rex? Normal maps. The base mesh isn't really that high poly. That entire model can be replicated and used in a current gen game.

Woody is also pretty basic. Obviously, there's not a whole lot that can be faked with normal maps, but the only thing really high poly is his face. And games can match that, depending on the type of game. Games with a lot going on will not be able to get that amount of details in models for quite a while I'm assuming. But...

 

[WasteLand Soldier]

better comparison would be to compare games to final fantasy: the spirit within.

 

[senahorse]

You might as well ask when real-life will 'look' as good as Goodfellas.

Amazing how good that movie turned out on Blu-ray.

 

[senahorse]

better comparison would be to compare games to final fantasy: the spirit within.

A long ways off.

 

[WasteLand Soldier]

long ways off? no?

 

[ConcealedBlaze]

http://spaghettioh.com/wp-content/review_mirrors_edge/mirrors_edge_rooftop.jpg
http://techgage.com/articles/graphic_cards/settings/jan_2009/mirrors_edge.jpg
http://spaghettioh.com/wp-content/review_mirrors_edge/mirrors_edge_scafolding.jpg

That looks better than anything in Toy Story. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

Oh thank god! I figured I'd be the only one praising ME graphics in this thread

 

[ArjanN]

A long ways off.

The future is now:

 

[SapientWolf]

And there's the uncanny valley. Out of those, I think Crysis does okay in stills. In motion is hit or miss. Heavy Rain is creepy as hell either way.

 

[Shins]

Uncharted 2?

You morons are beyond all help. :lol

 

[Houston3000]

Real-time graphic technology is much further along than we see in video games. Watch some of the real-time tech demos for DX11 or even DX10 and they look phenomenal - running in real time on high-end PCs. Games aren't developed to look that good though because no one wants to try to sell a game that only the 5% of people who own a $2k gaming rig could run.

 

[AniHawk]

Uncharted 2?

It's the pinnacle of human achievement!

 

[TGO]

We've had many games surpass Toy Story's graphics, dam if a game were to be released now with Toy Story graphics I'd laugh at how shit it looks.
People would realise this if Pixar movie tie-in's were developed by more skilled developers.
but if ya referring to how clean & smooth it is, it's CGI

 

[ArjanN]

Uncharted 2?

You morons are beyond all help. :lol

The Uncharted 2 shot looks better than the Final Fantasy Spirits Within shot...

And there's the uncanny valley. Out of those, I think Crysis does okay in stills. In motion is hit or miss. Heavy Rain is creepy as hell either way.

He gave Final Fantasy - The Spirits Within as an example of something that's a long way off, but Spirits Within is the most "uncanny valley" thing ever.
The guy looks like a soulless automaton. IMO all the games examples I posted look more natural.

Then again I think the uncanny valley is mostly bullshit anyway.

 

[pestul]

These ultra realism in game shots to compare are hilarious. Do you guys really think they wanted Woody's face to have sweat pores and facial hair? Could they have surpassed that look at the time? I believe they could have. It was all in artistic direction. I don't think 3D animators knew at the time whether or not an ultra realistic 3D movie would sell.. so it didn't happen until later on when the market was tested.. games today aren't even close to what is going on behind the scenes in Toy Story (Just look at that blanket Buzz and Woody are standing on earlier).

We're still a gen or two away.

 

[Yoboman]

I watched Toy Story last night

It's really not that impressive. As odd as it seems to say about CGI, there are literally low res textures everywhere. It's not the flawless Pixar of current days. Rust is just patches of brown, most of the materials look like plastic rather than what they are.

I think Toy Story has been surpassed. Maybe not image quality wise, but definitely detail wise

 

[Doc Holliday]

I watched Toy Story last night

It's really not that impressive. As odd as it seems to say about CGI, there are literally low res textures everywhere. It's not the flawless Pixar of current days. Rust is just patches of brown, most of the materials look like plastic rather than what they are.

I think Toy Story has been surpassed. Maybe not image quality wise, but definitely detail wise

You guys are nuts! Like someone mentioned before games maybe have surpassed the what toy story looks like on the surface at first glance. But even today one frame of that movie would take forever! That's a movie from 1993-5!

Toy Story is using procedural texture maps on pretty much everything! Shadow Maps that are larger in resolution than anything we have now. God knows what kind AA this thing was using. Everything is modeled, no normal maps. I bet there are more polys in Woody's face then on a full real time character now.

 

[AniHawk]

The Uncharted 2 shot looks better than the Final Fantasy Spirits Within shot...

Not with Dreamworks Face McGee.

 

[Maron]

Yeah, looks plastic.

:lol

 

[Ajemsuhgao]

You guys are nuts! Like someone mentioned before games maybe have surpassed the what toy story looks like on the surface at first glance. But even today one frame of that movie would take forever! That's a movie from 1993-5!

Toy Story is using procedural texture maps on pretty much everything! Shadow Maps that are larger in resolution than anything we have now. God knows what kind AA this thing was using. Everything is modeled, no normal maps. I bet there are more polys in Woody's face then on a full real time character now.

Wrong.

 

[xenorevlis]

Character models are getting damn close and some environments, when presented properly, look beyond TS quality.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Maybe i'm seeing something different but the images on this page don't come anywhere near toy story.

That GoW picture actually pretty well demonstrates just how far we have to go.