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Transgender journalist at EG Expo called "this person" on stage at MS event (See OP)

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J

jivran

Neo Member
I'm not trying to defend the comedian, but, IMO, she should have never taken the issue to Twitter before trying to work it out in a professional manner. Anyone here remember the whole Pycon debacle with Adria Richards? Nothing good was ever going to come from her starting this kind of stuff on Twitter.
 
J

Joni

Member
jivran said:
I'm not trying to defend the comedian, but, IMO, she should have never taken the issue to Twitter before trying to work it out in a professional manner. Anyone here remember the whole Pycon debacle with Adria Richards? Nothing good was ever going to come from her starting this kind of stuff on Twitter.
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Unlike the Pycon debacle she did try to settle it with the guy at the expo. They brushed her off.
 
A

aeolist

Banned
jivran said:
I'm not trying to defend the comedian, but, IMO, she should have never taken the issue to Twitter before trying to work it out in a professional manner. Anyone here remember the whole Pycon debacle with Adria Richards? Nothing good was ever going to come from her starting this kind of stuff on Twitter.
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she asked the microsoft staff there for an apology and they stonewalled her, i'd say that's professional enough
 
R

RobFox64tm

Member
I think it'd be an honest mistake to maybe say it once, out of fear of being disrespectful and not knowing how to handle that kind of situation, but to drag it out like that is just... wow.
 
T

TheBaronOfNA

Banned
Warmijwilf said:
Oh my god, those aren't his tweets. That poster misunderstood things that were being said to her via multiple twitter accounts (trolls who have heard about this story) abusing her.

Like I said, you guys are way too busy reacting to bother with checking the facts. It's annoying.

https://twitter.com/JimmyRuss0

They are THIS troll's tweets. Not the comedians. Jesus Christ, I thought people were more intelligent than this.


https://twitter.com/FraserMillward This is the comedian.
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Pandanaut said:
Those are NOT the comedian. That is some random, hate-filled person on Twitter.
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SmokyDave said:
Those tweets were sent from a troll account that has nothing to do with the presenter at all.

Slow your roll peeps.
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Oh, then sorry.
 
Z

Zornack

Member
aeolist said:
i don't think this is a valid response to someone who's been hurt like this

basically anything other than "i really didn't mean to hurt you and i'm very sorry that i did" is 100% asshole
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Seriously? Transgender people make up an incredibly small percentage of the population and most people don't know the correct way to refer to their gender. By his account he made a small mistake, if that was the case he doesn't have to bend over backwards and grovel for her to accept his apology.

Now, if he really did call her it and treated her with disrespect that's an entirely different matter and he should give an all out apology.
 
A

aeolist

Banned
Zornack said:
Seriously? Transgender people make up an incredibly small percentage of the population and most people don't know the correct way to refer to their gender. By his account he made a small mistake, if that was the case he doesn't have to bend over backwards and grovel for her to accept his apology.

Now, if he really did call her it and treated her with disrespect that's an entirely different matter and he should give an all out apology.
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so if someone comes to you and says "hey you really hurt me deeply when you said x" a valid response is "nope you're wrong deal with it"

good to know
 
Z

Zornack

Member
aeolist said:
so if someone comes to you and says "hey you really hurt me deeply when you said x" a valid response is "nope you're wrong deal with it"

good to know
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He didn't do that, though. By his account he made a small mistake, didn't realize he did, and didn't know that Luara tried to get in touch with him only to be rebuffed by staff. In his statement he says he's reaching out to talk with her.
 
Ü

Übermatik

Member
Using 'he' is both understandable and forgivable, to a degree. But if the guy really referred to her as 'it', that's over the fucking line. What a horrible choice of words.
 
C

CookTrain

Member
LQX said:
Why lie when there are so many witnesses? Makes no sense.
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It's not impossible to have misunderstood his intent and recalled it differently after the fact. It's not lying, it's just the reality of human testimony. Our attitudes skew our perceptions and our memories.

Conversely, he could have said "it" entirely innocently and claim he didn't not out of intent to deceive, but out of the complete lack of intention behind saying "it".

Either way, it's pretty clear we're just getting words against words right now.

Edit: for the people saying he should have asked, how does that avoid offence? Most people would obviously be insulted if you questioned their gender. It's a minefield out there.
 
H

hey_it's_that_dog

benevolent sexism
dragonfart28 said:
What is the right way to reference someone you have no idea what gender they are?
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"It" refers to an object, not a person. You could say "this person," which allegedly he did. You could ask a person's name and use that, but I understand that in a frantic on-stage situation you might not be able to manage referring to people by their names.

I'm very interested in exactly how this situation played out, because I want to know if there's any amount of forgiveness that the comedian deserves due to being in an ambiguous situation under time pressure. For example, it might be much more obvious to the journalist that she was presenting herself as female than it was to the comedian, in this case. It's understandable that someone might be flustered, confused, and say something stupid as a result.
 
S

Silky

Banned
aeolist said:
you ask them upfront and go by their response

trans people generally appreciate being asked
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Really? I thought it was the opposite, honestly.

Kinyou said:
And non-trans people don't appreciate it all and probably take it as an insult. It makes sense that people are hesitant
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That's why it's the best idea to go by visual approach by what the person in question wishes to be represented as.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
Warmijwilf said:
Why is that in her favour and not his? What? That's a complete non-sequitur.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but for my part: the fact that when confronted with this he's become defensive rather than aghast doesn't fill me with confidence. If you quoted a post of mine where I had made a typographical error that turned it into something horribly racist, I would be falling all over myself to explain how I absolutely did not mean to do that and how incredibly sorry I was for what happened. That's how people usually react when they unintentionally cause grave offense and are put on the spot for it.

There's also the fact that several people who attended the show have commented about how what they saw of his stage show seemed on the abrasive side and that it was set up specifically to make a spectacle of people.

I'm not saying he isn't correct. There may have simply been a break-down of communication on stage that lead to unfortunate misunderstandings on the parts of both parties involved. I can't imagine why he wouldn't just profusely apologize and reassure her that no offense was intended if that were the case, though; we've seen this song-and-dance with other comedians, and it doesn't end well.
 
W

whyman

Member
Usually i think a comedian can say whatever he/she wants to but these people werent there to see a comedian so pretty wrong i guess. This also wasent part of his act. What a horrible person.
 
S

SpoonyBard

Banned
Zornack said:
Seriously? Transgender people make up an incredibly small percentage of the population and most people don't know the correct way to refer to their gender. By his account he made a small mistake, if that was the case he doesn't have to bend over backwards and grovel for her to accept his apology.

Now, if he really did call her it and treated her with disrespect that's an entirely different matter and he should give an all out apology.
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The thought of her being a trangender probably never crossed his mind. To him that was just a guy in a funny wig.
 
M

maplelord93

Banned
Whilst the guy that said it probably isn't employed directly by Microsoft, you'd have thought they'd have been a bit more careful with their briefings!
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not sure how a briefing would have made a difference when they called a random person to the stage
 
W

Warmijwilf

Banned
Imperfected said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but for my part: the fact that when confronted with this he's become defensive rather than aghast doesn't fill me with confidence. If you quoted a post of mine where I had made a typographical error that turned it into something horribly racist, I would be falling all over myself to explain how I absolutely did not mean to do that and how incredibly sorry I was for what happened. That's how people usually react when they unintentionally cause grave offense and are put on the spot for it.

There's also the fact that several people who attended the show have commented about how what they saw of his stage show seemed on the abrasive side and that it was set up specifically to make a spectacle of people.

I'm not saying he isn't correct. There may have simply been a break-down of communication on stage that lead to unfortunate misunderstandings on the parts of both parties involved. I can't imagine why he wouldn't just profusely apologize and reassure her that no offense was intended if that were the case, though; we've seen this song-and-dance with other comedians, and it doesn't end well.
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A lot of people get angry when accused of things they didn't do, especially about this kind of thing. I know for a fact if it was me, I'd be just as defensive about this.
 
K

Kinyou

Member
aeolist said:
i'm not sure this is a thing that has ever actually happened
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Erm, why not? I have a friend who used to look very girlish when he was younger, so he either got called the wrong gender or was asked about it. He wasn't all that happy with either approach.
 
B

BronsonLee

Member
"I would like to speak to her face to face to sort this out, but she's taken to Twitter and now I'm getting hundreds of tweets per minute."
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You know those tweets are coming...maybe you should, you know...fucking apologize to her on Twitter first?!

If you're getting trumped out by Microsoft and such, that's not the way to handle it at all. Stop being so goddamn defensive, chalk it up to being ignorant, and move on.
 
M

mollipen

Member
Vamphuntr said:
To be fair this would also probably be humiliating. Especially on a stage.
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If you're in a position where you feel like it would be insulting to ask (such as up on stage), you use gender-neutral words (and sure hell not "it").

If you're in a position where you aren't calling attention to the situation in front of hundreds of people, you ask. While I'm sure there are people who are trans who would get offended by your not being able to tell which way they gender themselves by how they're presenting, the majority that I know would appreciate your asking if the answer wasn't clear to you.
 
H

Hrothgar

Member
aeolist said:
i'm not sure this is a thing that has ever actually happened
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What do you mean? I've seen woman (non-transgendered) with boyish looks being approached as a man, and vice-versa. That's extremely humiliating, let alone asking someone what gender he/she is.
 
S

SolidChamp

Banned
Imperfected said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but for my part: the fact that when confronted with this he's become defensive rather than aghast doesn't fill me with confidence. If you quoted a post of mine where I had made a typographical error that turned it into something horribly racist, I would be falling all over myself to explain how I absolutely did not mean to do that and how incredibly sorry I was for what happened. That's how people usually react when they unintentionally cause grave offense and are put on the spot for it.

There's also the fact that several people who attended the show have commented about how what they saw of his stage show seemed on the abrasive side and that it was set up specifically to make a spectacle of people.

I'm not saying he isn't correct. There may have simply been a break-down of communication on stage that lead to unfortunate misunderstandings on the parts of both parties involved. I can't imagine why he wouldn't just profusely apologize and reassure her that no offense was intended if that were the case, though; we've seen this song-and-dance with other comedians, and it doesn't end well.
Click to expand...

This. All of this. My personal motto is simple: Going out of your way to show how sincere you are goes a LONG fucking way with most people.
 
M

Mechanized

Member
Asking for her name could have avoided this as well. Hindsight is 20/20 though. People make mistakes.
The comment wasn't necessarily coming from a place of hate. Could be ignorance, indifference, nerves, anything...
 
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