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[Scrabble]

To enforce inequality based on assumption is prejudice. What else would it be? I have not even used the word 'transphobic' once in this thread either.

The information you provide is based on comparisons between men and women, not on trans women and women. That why I've dismissed it. It's invalid.



That's fair enough. She may well have an advantage. Others disagree with this, such as Dr. Eric Vilain, whom I quoted above. The problem I have with this thread is that I'm arguing that the matter is inconclusive. A clear majority are saying it is conclusive that she has an advantage yet have utterly failed to back up this position.



It is not a fact. The onus is on you to demonstrate so and you have failed to so this. By all accounts those on HRT and post-SRS lose the muscle mass male advantage, they lose the bone density male advantage. It thus makes the topic not nearly as clear cut as you want to make it out to be.

How exactly have we failed to provide references and evidence in this thread?

 

[paile]

Fox is gassing hard going into the third. if Evan-Smith plays smart she might do it.

I thought she had anatomical advantages such as bigger lung capacity? Or is she just all mass and no gas?

I don't think she is a very good fighter anyway.

 

[Lambda Pie]

a lesser woman would've been defeated by now, Fox showing her strength and resolve.

 

[J_Lee]

Ashlee WON

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Watch this fight and tell me Fox isn't stronger. You can argue all you want, but the eyes tell a different story. PEACE.

Fox has an advantage but it seems slight to me. Ashley has been holding her own and even in the first was getting the better of Fox in the ground game (which is a pretty good judge of pure strength matchup)

I think the issue is that some woman are going to be stronger than other women. Can you solely attribute Fox' occasional strength advantage to her transgender status? Cyborg is a lot stronger than pretty much every one of her opponents.

 

[Pimpwerx]

In the case of Phelps, his gifts are prominent every time he swims. He's a hard and skilled worker, and his body lends itself better to swimming than most. Sounds like a perfect candidate for this concept of barring athletes on the extremes, but then one remembers that he isn't a "scary, skulking tranny" that others need to be protected from. Forget qualifications to fight, it's hard enough to be qualified to piss in some places.

Phelps isn't trying to swim against women. Fox's physical gifts are naturally gifted from being a man, not some genetic freak. PEACE.

 

[Lambda Pie]

Fox gassed completely.

good shit to Evan-Smith.

 

[Dark Octave]

The one on the left, am I right?

 

[Connor2029]

Fox gassed completely.

good shit to Evan-Smith.

How did she win? Decision? Submission?

 

[dalVlatko]

Watching that fight you wouldn't know that Fox was transgender.

Ashley dominated her and it could have been over in the first round.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I watched that fight. Her opponent was built like a little girl; much more apt for beauty pageants than MMA.

Most Women MMA fighters are slight builds. Physical builds like Cris "Cyborg" Santos are rare.

Here are the two women fighting for the UFC Championship. They're not slight builds but they're also at the apex of the sport for Women.

Here is the cast picture of the current season of The Ultimate Fighter, the first season to have Women competing. Some of these women are new to the sport and some are veterans of up to 10 years.

Lots of slight builds. And as I comprised this post, Smith wins by stoppage. Fox's poor technique and conditioning cost her the match despite her strength advantage.

 

[Heel]

This is why you take a fight like this. You now know who a 2-0 woman's MMA fighter is, and her name is Ashlee Evans-Smith. Wouldn't be surprised if the UFC gives her a call.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Fox has an advantage but it seems slight to me. Ashley has been holding her own and even in the first was getting the better of Fox in the ground game (which is a pretty good judge of pure strength matchup)

I think the issue is that some woman are going to be stronger than other women. Can you solely attribute Fox' occasional strength advantage to her transgender status? Cyborg is a lot stronger than pretty much every one of her opponents.

Cyborg is also a known roider. Like for like, a trans fighter is gonna have that strength advantage. If allowed to go through puberty and mature into a man, they're gonna develop those physical traits. There are some frail and weak men who'd get whooped by an equal-sized woman, but this isn't really one of those cases. It should just be women vs women and men vs men. There could always be a trans category to make those fights like for like.

That's my honest opinion, whether it sounds bigoted or not. I simply don't agree with this and think if Fox had any amount of actual skill, she could've hurt Ashlee. That's not fair. PEACE.

 

[Lambda Pie]

How did she win? Decision? Submission?

GnP. not doing too much damage but Fallon was too gassed to fight back so the ref stopped it.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Besides the fact that there are women with those features, if Fox started hormone therapy before puberty than she had a puberty exactly like cis women and therefore have bone structure of a cis woman.

Which is my problem with "trans people should not compete"

If was "your shoulder must be this big to compete", than I agree because then you would exclube both transgender women who transitioned after puberty AND any cis girl who competed in pro swimming =P

I'm skeptical that fucking with the body's hormones pre-puberty might not have unintended health consequences, though. As with many things TG, I think there needs to be more research done before this becomes any kind of regular treatment option, especially since therapies are generally good enough these days that TG folks can often pass even if they go through the "wrong" puberty of their birth body.

 

[BadAss2961]

How did she win? Decision? Submission?

Stoppage after full mount ground and pound. Guess a lot of people in this thread have to eat some crow.

I still say transgender women have an advantage though. The fact that her opponents (including Smith after the fight) all talk about her ridiculous strength is telling.

 

[Reneledarker]

Fun fight.

The only notable difference I found was the endurance. I guess the past opponents of Fox just sucked.

 

[dream]

We just watched Ashlee's life change with the presentation of one oversized check.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Fox has an advantage but it seems slight to me. Ashley has been holding her own and even in the first was getting the better of Fox in the ground game (which is a pretty good judge of pure strength matchup)

I think the issue is that some woman are going to be stronger than other women. Can you solely attribute Fox' occasional strength advantage to her transgender status? Cyborg is a lot stronger than pretty much every one of her opponents.

Ashlee Evans Smith didn't use strength to control her at all. It was all technique. Technique to get the takedowns. Technique to pass guard. Technique to keep from being put back into guard.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Guys, don't just watch for the Fallon fight and turn it off...stay for more BAD MMA. It's truly something to be appreciated.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Ashlee Evans Smith didn't use strength to control her at all. It was all technique. Technique to get the takedowns. Technique to pass guard. Technique to keep from being put back into guard.

But if Fox really had this unreal, unfair strength advantage she would have been able to toss her aside. I'm not saying Fox wasn't stronger, but in a fight one person always has a strength advantage. I didn't see Fox' advantage as any greater than you see in most MMA fights.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Stoppage after full mount ground and pound.

Guess a lot of people in this thread have to eat some crow.

I still say transgender women have an advantage though. The fact that her opponents (including Smith after the fight) all talk about her ridiculous strength is telling.

The arguments had less to do with whether she would win or not and more to do with whether she had unfair physical advantages. That she is, apparently, a crummy fighter does not really mitigate the issue, especially since many in this thread have commented that she DID seem to have a manifest strength advantage, even if her shit skills mean that's all she really had.

 

[paile]

First of all, it is incontrovertible that advantageous physical difference DID exist at one time, and that being the case, it seems to me only right that it's the job of the competitor, not the organization, to prove that said physical difference has been erased. To assume it axiomatically for the sake of social progress on tangential issues is irresponsible.

I agree. Yet she may well NOT have an advantage. Then what? The issue remains inconclusive afterall and I did link a peer-reviewed paper earlier in the thread which noted exactly that.

What "equal rights" are being denied, here? Competing in a sport is not, by any means, a right, especially if you've previously inhabited a body that would have been justifiably banned from competing in a particular organization and have no evidence to show that your body post-hormones and -surgery is on a true parity with a natural-born female one.

Fox can parade around plenty of 'experts' supporting her position and her opponents can do the same in opposite. It's an inconclusive issue.

You are assuming JUST as much as those you're arguing against, only you think your assumptions ought to be given preference because they align with your personal identity and political goals.

Exactly what assumptions have I made? I have not said she should compete like my opponents in this thread have said she shouldn't.

How exactly have we failed to provide references and evidence in this thread?

Oh you've provided references, demonstrating that a man has anatomical advantages over a women. Which is irrelevant. What you haven't demonstrated is that trans athletes still retain an advantage. And even if they do retain an advantage (that isn't overly significant), what then? What about cis women who have natural genetic advantages over other cis women in terms of bone density and strength? Where exactly do you want to draw the line?

 

[J_Lee]

Stoppage after full mount ground and pound.

Guess a lot of people in this thread have to eat some crow.

I still say transgender women have an advantage though. The fact that her opponents (including Smith after the fight) all talk about her ridiculous strength is telling.

I'm not eating crow I stand by my opinion which is kind of proven when Ashlee said "Fox hits so freakin hard" to me that would mean Fox hits harder than previous fighters Ashlee has fought.

 

[Wafflecakes]

In the case of Phelps, his gifts are prominent every time he swims. He's a hard and skilled worker, and his body lends itself better to swimming than most. Sounds like a perfect candidate for this concept of barring athletes on the extremes, but then one remembers that he isn't a "scary, skulking tranny" that others need to be protected from. Forget qualifications to fight, it's hard enough to be qualified to piss in some places.

Phelps isn't some mutant. There are plenty of people born with similar traits that never win 8 gold medals in one Olympics. He may be on the extremes, but his ability is still generated within a set pool of possible genetic traits.

To be blunt.... it is in no way comparable to someone who had their gender medically changed. If Phelps had undergone surgery or hormone therapy while young to achieve his current abilities than I would exclude him as well.



I don't think hyperbole about "scary tranny's" is in any way helpful or productive in this conversation.

 

[Lazyslob]

Guys, don't just watch for the Fallon fight and turn it off...stay for more BAD MMA. It's truly something to be appreciated.

LOL. Yeah! not when Glory is on either!

 

[Scrabble]

Stoppage after full mount ground and pound.

Guess a lot of people in this thread have to eat some crow.

I still say transgender women have an advantage though. The fact that her opponents (including Smith after the fight) all talk about her ridiculous strength is telling.

Which is all some of us have been trying to say. To completely play dumb and denounce the advantages is just silly. I also never said that a ciswoman doesn't have the right to fight her if she so chooses. Only that it be disclosed that she is fighting a transwoman, which is something she hid.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Stoppage after full mount ground and pound. Guess a lot of people in this thread have to eat some crow.

I still say transgender women have an advantage though. The fact that her opponents (including Smith after the fight) all talk about her ridiculous strength is telling.

Or maybe she just isn't as skilled as her opponent?

Lindsey Vonn can out ski many men. That doesn't mean men are equal to women in Alpine Skiing.



One individual instance really doesn't prove anything. No one in this thread was claiming that it would.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

This guy is coming out singing along to 50 Cent like it's 2003.

 

[Lambda Pie]

Stoppage after full mount ground and pound. Guess a lot of people in this thread have to eat some crow.

on the contrary, Evan-Smith didn't finish the fight in the first and second rounds cause Fox used pure brute strength to reverse unfavourable positions.

once Fox gassed, it was a matter of time.

 

[Scrabble]

Oh you've provided references, demonstrating that a man has anatomical advantages over a women. Which is irrelevant. What you haven't demonstrated is that trans athletes still retain an advantage. And even if they do retain an advantage (that isn't overly significant), what then? What about cis women who have natural genetic advantages over other cis women in terms of bone density and strength? Where exactly do you want to draw the line?

How do they not retain an advantage? Their hands don't change, their broad shoulders don't change, there jaw doesn't change. These are things that have been established and you continue to look past them. Whether they retain a reaction time advantage is still debatable, but when 1/10 of a difference is enough to give someone serious head trauma that isn't something you should just brush off.

 

[paile]

Which is all some of us have been trying to say. To completely play dumb and denounce the advantages is just silly. I also never said that a ciswoman doesn't have the right to fight her if she so chooses. Only that it be disclosed that she is fighting a transwoman, which is something she hid.

I worded it wrong. There is an advantage. Cis women too have an advantage over other cis women. That's not in question. The question is whether the advantage is significant enough to make the competition unfair. At this stage, it is inconclusive.

 

[Sibylus]

Fox's physical gifts are naturally gifted from being a man, not some genetic freak.

This is the oddest attempt at distinction to me, being that properly treated trans athletes very much adhere to the "genetic freak" mold (and some of them are intersexed like Caster Semenya).

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I agree. Yet she may well NOT have an advantage. Then what? The issue remains inconclusive afterall and I did link a peer-reviewed paper earlier in the thread which noted exactly that.



Fox can parade around plenty of 'experts' supporting her position and her opponents can do the same in opposite. It's an inconclusive issue.



Exactly what assumptions have I made? I have not said she should compete like my opponents in this thread have said she shouldn't.



Oh you've provided references, demonstrating that a man has anatomical advantages over a women. Which is irrelevant. What you haven't demonstrated is that trans athletes still retain an advantage. And even if they do retain an advantage (that isn't overly significant), what then? What about cis women who have natural genetic advantages over other cis women in terms of bone density and strength? Where exactly do you want to draw the line?

What has been said in this thread, repeatedly, is that if said advantage DID exist, the only safe, fair mindset is to assume it continues to exist until such time that it can be affirmatively proven to have been erased. There is, of course, no accounting for differences among individuals of the same sex, but the line has to be drawn SOMEWHERE.

Of course, this appears to have all been a moot point, as it seems she was rather a shit fighter, either way. And there's no accounting for that, either. The larger point, though, was whether such a match-up was defensible in the first place, and it would not have been prejudiced nor unjust for the sanctioning organization to have disallowed such a match-up on the grounds of insufficient evidence, is all I'm saying. I don't see that a single TG individual, who by definition presents an exceptional case re: sex and gender, being denied entry into a sport divided on binary lines of sex is some egregious issue of rights or equality.

Edit: Bo, you're being pretty ridiculously unfair in this thread. The point is not the barring of extremes, it's that the line of sex segregation, while it will be arbitrary in SOME cases, nevertheless exists for a reason, and it's not at all clear to me or others (especially given the reports that Fox, as bad a fighter as she was, way outmatched her opponent in terms of strength) that a TG doesn't still have some level of access to those innate advantages that make that line of sex segregation necessary in the first place. It has nothing to do with "scary trannies" and everything to do with good sense and caution.

 

[rocketknight]

One individual instance really doesn't prove anything. No one in this thread was claiming that it would.

Fox is damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. I'm glad she's out there doing her thing and I hope she inspires trans kids and other people to follow their passions and ignore internet peanut galleries.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Who says there isn't any advantage? There is. Cis women too have an advantage over other cis women. That's not in question. The question is whether the advantage is significant enough to make the competition unfair. At this stage, it is inconclusive.

Did you watch the fight just now? I don't know how you can continue this discussion if you didn't. You have to watch it.

The first rounds are where the strength advantage will show most with a poorly-conditioned and poorly-skilled fighter like Fox. She hit harder and was able to overcome Ashlee's technique by simply powering out of them. It was clear to the eye.

It wasn't until her tank started running out that Ashlee could use her technique to work her on the ground. If Fox had good technique and conditioning, she'd have finished Ashlee. If we're to assume all trans fighters will be as bad as Fox, then sure, there's no major advantage. However, that's not going to be the case, and that's the slippery slope.

Someone like Cyborg gets all roided up and probably carries around more testosterone than your average male, and she manhandled her opponents. Give her bone structure of a man, and it's not even a contest. It's not a fair fight. Hopefully you actually watched the fight instead of spouting off empty theoreticals. PEACE.

 

[Jest Chillin]

But if Fox really had this unreal, unfair strength advantage she would have been able to toss her aside. I'm not saying Fox wasn't stronger, but in a fight one person always has a strength advantage. I didn't see Fox' advantage as any greater than you see in most MMA fights.

I don't know that anyone is saying the strength advantage is unreal but it's certainly visibly a larger gap in every fight Fox has had than I've seen in any other fight barring a Cyborg fight and Cyborg has popped hot for anabolic steroids in the past which puts a question mark on her unique physique.

In this particular fight (and certainly in other fights she might have) she was outclassed. Her opponent was a much better fighter than she was. But that strength difference was almost enough to win the fight with her strikes being so strong during the flurry in the first round. Yes, there will always be a strength difference between fighters but from all visual accounts and from the statements from Fox's opponents.. her strength seems to be larger than any other woman currently competing in MMA with a possible exception to Cris "Cyborg" Sanchez.

Is that ok? I don't know personally. The issue that I see cropping up is that if she indeed does have an unfair strength advantage than with all other things being equal, she's got a leg up on the competition and it's not from training harder. I don't think we'll know for sure if it's due to her being born Male until the science gets better either way.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Fox is damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. I'm glad she's out there doing her thing and I hope she inspires trans kids and other people to follow their passions and ignore internet peanut galleries.

I agree that its an awful situation to be in. None of it is her fault.

That doesn't in any way change the realities of how complex the issues are.

 

[paile]

What has been said in this thread, repeatedly, is that if said advantage DID exist, the only safe, fair mindset is to assume it continues to exist until such time that it can be affirmatively proven to have been erased. There is, of course, no accounting for differences among individuals of the same sex, but the line has to be drawn SOMEWHERE.

I can't deny skeletal differences, they obviously exist. Where the debate is, is her advantage so insurmountable that others can not realistically compete? Based on her loss (which I always knew was coming) the answer is no.

 

[Sean]

gif i just made from the first round, you can see Fox had a clear strength advantage

edit: here's a gif of Evans-Smith winning, i'll just link it since it's 4.5mb: http://i.minus.com/ibpme0dHBmwUB6.gif

 

[Pimpwerx]

This is the oddest attempt at distinction to me, being that properly treated trans athletes very much adhere to the "genetic freak" mold (and some of them are intersexed like Caster Semenya).

I'm not quibbling over semantics. Phelps, Lebron, Megatron...these people are considered genetic freaks because they represent the 99th percentile of physical specimens. Their skill stacked on top of it allows them to beat other top physical specimens at the highest level. Someone like Serena Williams is also a genetic freak of a woman, but you think it would be fair for her to have to play against a TG Nadal or Djokovic? Men have inherent physical advantages over women. It's why mens sports are always played at a higher level of skill and physicality. PEACE.

 

[J_Lee]

gif i just made from the first round, you can see Fox had a clear strength advantage

Ashlee punched Fox right on the jaw a few times and it didn't even faze her.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I can't deny skeletal differences, they obviously exist. Where the debate is, is her advantage so insurmountable that others can not realistically compete? Based on her loss (which I always knew was coming) the answer is no.

One fighter being bad at their job does not change the precedent this sets, in a larger sense, nor does it mitigate the flaws in the underlying mindset that seeks to totally erase even the tiniest atom of a concept of difference between women and transwomen.

Edit: Jesus at that GIF. She's going nuts. Imagine if she were actually GOOD.

 

[Fornaximus]

I don't have as big an issue with it now that it's out there that she spent the first 20+ years of her life as a man. I totally understand her opponents who are livid with the fact that she was hiding it when they fought her. There are certain physical advantages she enjoys after fully developing into an adult as a man. However, they will only get her so far. It's kind of like Brock Lesnar or Bob Sapp. The embodiment of masculine brute force, but if you put a fighter of similar size and far superior technique in front of them, they'll likely lose.

Joe Rogan and Buck Angel had an interesting conversation about Fallon on one of his recent podcasts. I think Fallon's lack of disclosure was the biggest sticking point they both agreed on.

 

[Derpstar]

gif i just made from the first round, you can see Fox had a clear strength advantage

Holy shit, man. Looks like someone beating their girlfriend up ;__;

 

[border]

I can't deny skeletal differences, they obviously exist. Where the debate is, is her advantage so insurmountable that others can not realistically compete? Based on her loss (which I always knew was coming) the answer is no.

I don't think anybody ever said the advantage was insurmountable, and I'm not sure if ONLY an "insurmountable" advantage should disqualify her from competing against cis women. A poker player who can see his opponent's hand can still lose, but that doesn't mean he should be allowed in a tournament.

 

[ReturnOfTheRAT]

gif i just made from the first round, you can see Fox had a clear strength advantage

I know the slightest thing about MMA and this looks like quickness of attack instead of strength.

 

[paile]

The first rounds are where the strength advantage will show most with a poorly-conditioned and poorly-skilled fighter like Fox. She hit harder and was able to overcome Ashlee's technique by simply powering out of them. It was clear to the eye.

I will watch it but I don't think it is a stretch to say that were she better conditioned then she would not be showing such an obvious strength advantage, although it may still well exist. Strength relies on mass and mass and endurance are a trade off.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I know the slightest thing about MMA and this looks like quickness of attack instead of strength.

The strength displayed there was primarily in the first few seconds with the ease that Fox was able to pull Smith's head down into the knees. The Thai Plum grip she used helps but it's still not typically an easy thing to do.

I think some of the clubbing strikes that were blocked from later in the fight would show the strength difference better visually.

 

[Sibylus]

...but his ability is still generated within a set pool of possible genetic traits.

To be blunt.... it is in no way comparable to someone who had their gender medically changed. If Phelps had undergone surgery or hormone therapy while young to achieve his current abilities than I would exclude him as well.



I don't think hyperbole about "scary tranny's" is in any way helpful or productive in this conversation.

To the first point, and so is being transgendered (it just happens to be really, really improbable). Ditto being born with an intersex condition that happens to make Semenya a more effective woman's athlete. And it's very much comparable, unless one's mind is already made up.

To be out and trans is to subject yourself to suspicion from the get-go, it is the furthest thing from hyperbole. What isn't in any way helpful or productive is pretending society treats transgendered individuals even-handedly and doesn't have outspoken elements wanting to deny them equal opportunity. You get no points from me for trying to pretend stigma doesn't matter.