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[Tellaerin]

They're right, but the audience for games are mostly male. Change that.

If you're going to change it, change it by diversifying what's on offer. Saying, 'A lot of games now cater to male tastes, and we need to change games so they no longer do this' is not the way to go about it.

I'm sick to death of hearing how x, y, and z need to be purged from games to make them 'more accessible' or 'more palatable' to a broader audience, whether that broader audience means more casual players, female players, or whatever other market segment I don't happen to fall into. I'd like to see everyone's taste accounted for. Suggesting that games in general should sacrifice elements I like (and yes, I like looking at idealized depictions of sexy women in games, one of the things that seems to draw considerable ire from some quarters) in order to bring people with different tastes into the hobby isn't liable to garner much support from me.

 

[Suairyu]

...

Okay, I'm done with gender threads on GAF.

The best policy, to be (depressingly) honest.

 

[MuddyDonut]

Does she need all that money to do the project? I mean she already has it, but is it really necessary?

 

[Black-Wind]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games

This is kinda scamy, to be honest.

I don't see anything "scamy" about that at all.

All she asked for was for 6 grand to go towards time and research so that she's not just cherry picking bs. That kinda stuff takes time and money, both of which she may not have much to donate to a free web-series. It just so happens that her message resonated with so many people that they kept donating pass her asking amount. That's how kickstarters work out some times.

Like this ...
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/airshipambassador/wollstonecraft?ref=history
All he asked for was for 4k to make this book ... but so many felt so passionately about what he's trying to do that he ended up with fucking 92k.

 

[Vermillion]

...

Okay, I'm done with gender threads on GAF.

Yyup.

 

[Femmeworth]

Does she need all that money to do the project? I mean she already has it, but is it really necessary?

Since Kickstarter gets a cut of the profits, she might not be able to stop it prematurely even if she wants to.

 

[RELAYER]

damsel in distress is classic, it must be too late for me

 

[etiolate]

What you said is easy to understand. It just comes across as ignorant.

I don't think you understood it.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Speaking of tropes versus women in video games, just look at Ubisoft's press conference.
EVERYTHING about it had a somewhat scummy feeling, from the female host pandering to neckbeards with "herp derp, I'm a female and we females love hot chicks"-joke to Tomb Raider porn-moaning for 5 minutes as she's thrown around helplessly on screen.

Gaming culture as a whole is pandering to men in a why that is pretty much sexist.

 

[Man God]

Every time I scroll past this thread I see topless women on gaming.

 

[7Th]

I don't see anything "scamy" about that at all.

All she asked for was for 6 grand to go towards time and research so that she's not just cherry picking bs. That kinda stuff takes time and money, both of which she may not have much to donate to a free web-series.

Videogame history isn't that rich or extensive.

 

[daffy]

And what happens when we get a strong female lead? They get downplayed, ignored or swept under the rug. you know it to be true. Unless there is a man co leading gamers aren't hearing that. Lets stop pretending that women haven't had strong characters before, Beyond Good and Evil, Mirror's Edge, or Alice Madness Returns? Yeah, no one bought them.

Read em and weep boys.

Maybe support the change you seek instead of liking these basic YouTube videos.

 

[Femmeworth]

And what happens when we get a strong female lead? They get downplayed, ignored or swept under the rug. you know it to be true. Unless there is a man co leading gamers aren't hearing that. Lets stop pretending that women haven't had strong characters before, Beyond Good and Evil, Mirror's Edge, or Alice Madness Returns? Yeah, no one bought them.

Read em and weep boys.

Maybe support the change you seek instead of liking these basic YouTube videos.

Alice Madness Returns was rather mediocre. >_> Regardless, even if all of GAF bought all of those games it wouldn't have been enough to please the publishers.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

And what happens when we get a strong female lead? They get downplayed, ignored or swept under the rug. you know it to be true. Unless there is a man co leading gamers aren't hearing that. Lets stop pretending that women haven't had strong characters before, Beyond Good and Evil, Mirror's Edge, or Alice Madness Returns? Yeah, no one bought them.

Read em and weep boys.

Maybe support the change you seek instead of liking these basic YouTube videos.

I'm not entirely sure who you're talking to here. Most people on NeoGAF bought Mirror's Edge and BG&E and love them, how exactly are we supposed to make dudebro CoD gamer 11238472 excited to play BG&E2?

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Fighting Fuck Toy eh...

 

[faceless007]

And what happens when we get a strong female lead? They get downplayed, ignored or swept under the rug. you know it to be true. Unless there is a man co leading gamers aren't hearing that. Lets stop pretending that women haven't had strong characters before, Beyond Good and Evil, Mirror's Edge, or Alice Madness Returns? Yeah, no one bought them.

Read em and weep boys.

Maybe support the change you seek instead of liking these basic YouTube videos.

I bought all 3 of those games thank you very much. Why is that mutually exclusive with engaging in this discussion?

 

[DragonGirl]

I've been waiting for this series to come out for a while now. Her videos are fantastic.

I just want to throw this out there though:

When developers ask the question: How do we attract more female players to our games?, they are asking the wrong question, because more often than not, this question leads to the creation of a "Pink Ghetto". Developers makes some games that cater to a narrow demographic of young girls who've been thoroughly bought into fashion accessories and Barbie Dolls. Female and male gamers do not need to be segregated. Just as male gamer is not a singular demographic type, neither is female gamer.

The better question developers need to ask is: What do we need to stop doing in our games that drive women gamers away?

Also, the whole issue of making games welcoming to women does not mean games can never target just guys. Here's an example of a game I have no problem with:

DOA Xtreme Beach Volleyball.

This game targets a particular dudely demographic with laser like precision and you know exactly what that demographic is with very little investigation. This is not the problem.

The problem lies with all of those other games that are not aimed at just guys, but rather "adventure fans" (which can be female), "rpg fans" (which can be female), "shooter fans" (which can be female) so on and so forth. Yet, even without specifically aiming at a male demographic, the audience is still assumed to be exclusively male and thus, many games include within them tropes that degrade women, whether it's sexually exploiting them, treating them as objects, or what have you.

The problem is not that we need more games aimed at women. The problem is that male is assumed the default for human, and games aimed at general human audiences do stupid shit that drive away female players (or at the least, drive us up the wall). And it is totally unnecessary.

 

[Onemic]

I've been waiting for this series to come out for a while now. Her videos are fantastic.

I just want to throw this out there though:

When developers ask the question: How do we attract more female players to our games?, they are asking the wrong question, because more often than not, this question leads to the creation of a "Pink Ghetto". Developers makes some games that cater to a narrow demographic of young girls who've been thoroughly bought into fashion accessories and Barbie Dolls. Female and male gamers do not need to be segregated. Just as male gamer is not a singular demographic type, neither is female gamer.

The better question developers need to ask is: What do we need to stop doing in our games that drive women gamers away?

Also, the whole issue of making games welcoming to women does not mean games can never target just guys. Here's an example of a game I have no problem with:

DOA Xtreme Beach Volleyball.

This game targets a particular dudely demographic with laser like precision and you know exactly what that demographic is with very little investigation. This is not the problem.

The problem lies with all of those other games that are not aimed at just guys, but rather "adventure fans" (which can be female), "rpg fans" (which can be female), "shooter fans" (which can be female) so on and so forth. Yet, even without specifically aiming at a male demographic, the audience is still assumed to be exclusively male and thus, many games include within them tropes that degrade women, whether it's sexually exploiting them, treating them as objects, or what have you.

The problem is not that we need more games aimed at women. The problem is that male is assumed the default for human, and games aimed at general human audiences do stupid shit that drive away female players (or at the least, drive us up the wall). And it is totally unnecessary.

Great post and 100% accurate. Games like Metroid or Mirrors Edge aren't catered singularly toward women because they have a female lead, they're just adventure games that happen to have a women in the leading role. Once developers realize that and begin making games that are still the same games, but just have an *insert gender or minority, or sex here* we'll begin seeing more of their sought after audience coming to buy the games. Not only that, I think we'll just get more interesting games period. You would think Metroid or GTA: San Andreas would have taught developers/publishers a thing or two. Samus is one of my all time favourite characters and I couldn't care less if she was a girl or not.(the zero suit shit made her worse imo)


And on a side note I think The Last of Us is a perfect example of what I was talking about before, videogame characters in general not being limited to stupid tropes or idealized cliches. We have both a male and female that look rather ordinary, but still doing their thing. It sure beats muscular dudebro and big boobed scantily clad women that we usually are accustomed to. It's just regular people, which makes the game a hell of a lot more interesting.

 

[Slavik81]

And what happens when we get a strong female lead? They get downplayed, ignored or swept under the rug. you know it to be true. Unless there is a man co leading gamers aren't hearing that. Lets stop pretending that women haven't had strong characters before, Beyond Good and Evil, Mirror's Edge, or Alice Madness Returns? Yeah, no one bought them.

Read em and weep boys.

Maybe support the change you seek instead of liking these basic YouTube videos.

Would Mirror's Edge, BG&E or Alice really have sold better with a male lead? I doubt it.

I absolutely loved Mirror's Edge. The gameplay was unique and fun, and the art was brilliant. But I think the first-person platforming may have been too strange for some people. It required a lot of spacial comprehension and fast reflexes.

Portal (a game with an all-female cast) required spacial comprehension as well, but it was more successful as it allowed people to go at their own pace. There were only a few places where fast skillshots were required in Portal, and none at all in Portal 2.

I don't think Activision is a very useful source of wisdom, either. They do one thing and do it well: buy successful franchises and milk them dry. They have no insight and no vision. They're soul-sucking leeches on this industry.

 

[Femmeworth]

Great post and 100% accurate. Games like Metroid or Mirrors Edge aren't catered singularly toward women because they have a female lead, they're just adventure games that happen to have a women in the leading role. Once developers realize that and begin making games that are still the same games, but just have an *insert gender or minority, or sex here* we'll begin seeing more of their sought after audience coming to buy the games. Not only that, I think we'll just get more interesting games period. You would think Metroid or GTA: San Andreas would have taught developers/publishers a thing or two. Samus is one of my all time favourite characters and I couldn't care less if she was a girl or not.(the zero suit shit made her worse imo)

Samus has been sexualized since the first game, but the zero suit just kicked things up a notch.

 

[Onemic]

Samus has been sexualized since the first game, but the zero suit just kicked things up a notch.

uhhh not really when all you see is her suit. You don't even know she's a girl until the end of the game.

 

[Neki]

And what happens when we get a strong female lead? They get downplayed, ignored or swept under the rug. you know it to be true. Unless there is a man co leading gamers aren't hearing that. Lets stop pretending that women haven't had strong characters before, Beyond Good and Evil, Mirror's Edge, or Alice Madness Returns? Yeah, no one bought them.

Read em and weep boys.

Maybe support the change you seek instead of liking these basic YouTube videos.

I think MMO's and games like Diablo 3 have strong female leads and those tend to sell well. Unless we're talking specifically about singular protagonists in games or something, I don't know. I really liked the female DH in Diablo 3.

 

[Femmeworth]

uhhh not really when all you see is her suit. You don't even know she's a girl until the end of the game.

True, it wasn't shoved in the player's face throughout the game, but it was a reward. The quicker you finished the game, the less clothing she would have.

 

[daffy]

I'm just saying, maybe I shouldn't have directed to you guys, but we are still gamers and this is how gamers feel at large. These are the results publishers get. And who is going to tell publishers tropes are bad? No one.

 

[Onemic]

True, it wasn't shoved in the player's face throughout the game, but it was a reward. The quicker you finished the game, the less clothing she would have.

If I remember correctly the most you get is her just in normal attire. Nothing that would scream sex at you. Are you alleging that Samus never should have been a girl? Or she should have been ugly? You're reaching if you think Samus of all people was sexualized pre-Fusion. Because if that's the case then the argument that men are just as sexualized begins to hold some water.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

I've been waiting for this series to come out for a while now. Her videos are fantastic.

I just want to throw this out there though:

When developers ask the question: How do we attract more female players to our games?, they are asking the wrong question, because more often than not, this question leads to the creation of a "Pink Ghetto". Developers makes some games that cater to a narrow demographic of young girls who've been thoroughly bought into fashion accessories and Barbie Dolls. Female and male gamers do not need to be segregated. Just as male gamer is not a singular demographic type, neither is female gamer.

The better question developers need to ask is: What do we need to stop doing in our games that drive women gamers away?

Also, the whole issue of making games welcoming to women does not mean games can never target just guys. Here's an example of a game I have no problem with:

DOA Xtreme Beach Volleyball.

This game targets a particular dudely demographic with laser like precision and you know exactly what that demographic is with very little investigation. This is not the problem.

The problem lies with all of those other games that are not aimed at just guys, but rather "adventure fans" (which can be female), "rpg fans" (which can be female), "shooter fans" (which can be female) so on and so forth. Yet, even without specifically aiming at a male demographic, the audience is still assumed to be exclusively male and thus, many games include within them tropes that degrade women, whether it's sexually exploiting them, treating them as objects, or what have you.

The problem is not that we need more games aimed at women. The problem is that male is assumed the default for human, and games aimed at general human audiences do stupid shit that drive away female players (or at the least, drive us up the wall). And it is totally unnecessary.

I dont play AS many games as i use to(largely cuz i've been playing alot of fighting games)

but can any give me some good examples of this(bolded) from anything recent...

 

[Kazerei]

If I remember correctly the most you get is her just in normal attire. Nothing that would scream sex at you. Are you alleging that Samus never should have been a girl? Or she should have been ugly? You're reaching if you think Samus of all people was sexualized pre-Fusion. Because if that's the case then the argument that men are just as sexualized begins to hold some water.

Best endings for Metroid, Metroid II, Super Metroid, and Metroid Fusion

 

[Onemic]

I dont play AS many games as i use to(largely cuz i've been playing alot of fighting games)

but can any give me some good examples of this(bolded) from anything recent...

that lollipop chainsaw game or whatever, but I guess the target demographic is already pretty apparent from the get go.

Oh and Ninja Gaiden.

 

[Femmeworth]

If I remember correctly the most you get is her just in normal attire. Nothing that would scream sex at you. Are you alleging that Samus never should have been a girl? Or she should have been ugly? You're reaching if you think Samus of all people was sexualized pre-Fusion. Because if that's the case then the argument that men are just as sexualized begins to hold some water.

What? No.

Metroid

Metroid II: Return of Samus

Supe Metroid

 

[Vermillion]

And I break what I said just hours ago... sexualization is not inherently wrong. It's sexualization used as a character's only quality that is wrong.

 

[Akainu]

If I remember correctly the most you get is her just in normal attire. Nothing that would scream sex at you. Are you alleging that Samus never should have been a girl? Or she should have been ugly? You're reaching if you think Samus of all people was sexualized pre-Fusion. Because if that's the case then the argument that men are just as sexualized begins to hold some water.

It was a bikini.

 

[Onemic]

Best endings for Metroid, Metroid II, Super Metroid, and Metroid Fusion

Ah, I never played II or Super, I didn't know those were the endings for those games. It's funny that Fusions actually isn't that bad considering the way they made her character in that game screams female stereotype.

What? No.

Metroid

wat. memory ruined.

Regardless, The way her character is generally handled in the games pre-fusion makes most of the shit once you beat the game irrelevant. It's once Fusion starts that it goes downhill and her character is compromised.

 

[DragonGirl]

True, it wasn't shoved in the player's face throughout the game, but it was a reward.

Samus is also one of my favorite game characters and for the most part, an example of one way to do it right (Ignoring Other M here, it didn't happen). But at the same time, demonstrates the sort of obliviousness of developers, or perhaps blinders many have on where exploitation is concerned. In the games, Samus is a character who happens to be female, just like how most other characters just happen to be male (how many times do you think a character designer creates a male marine, or cowboy, or adventurer, or plumber and asks himself "gee, when I develop this character's personality, how shall I show his masculine side?). Samus' sex is irrelevant. Up to the 16 bit days, I wasn't bothered by her end of game reveal because it never struck me as fan service. She wasn't standing around in cheesecake poses, she was just revealed to be female and the end credits rolled. This changed with Fusion and Zero Mission, where certain endings did reward players with Samus cheesecake. Then along came the abominable Zero Suit.

Do you think there ever would have been a Zero Suit version if Samus had been male? Let's ask Master Chief.

 

[Mudkips]

I'm really happy to see someone talking about this in an intelligent and reasonable way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8I0Wy58adM&feature=g-all-u

Five stereotypes often used in videogames that reinforce harmful ideas about women:

+Damsel in distress
+Fighting fucktoy.
+Sexy sideckick
+Sexy villainess
+Women as background decoration.

Worth discussing, worth improving.

Personally I think the best way to address these problems is if more women started developing games and contributing their ideas to the discussion.

That's really only 3 things:

Weak
Unrealistic body image
Useless

And when you look at male characters that aren't a main character, they're often weak or useless. And when you look at male characters that are a main character, they've often got an unrealistic body image.

Bottom line is video games have terrible writing and show unrealistically fit and attractive characters, regardless of gender. The only gender-based imbalance here is the fact that most main characters are male, and that's simply a reflection of the demographic of people who buy these games.

 

[low-G]

The whole point of Metroid was BEAT IT AS FAST AS YOU CAN MAYBE SHE'LL BE NAKED

 

[way more]

That's really only 3 things:


Bottom line is video games have terrible writing and show unrealistically fit and attractive characters, regardless of gender. The only gender-based imbalance here is the fact that most main characters are male, and that's simply a reflection of the demographic of people who buy these games.

Well if there is a reason for the sexism then I guess it's fine.

Edit: Oh jeez, avatars are back and I see it was Mudkips I responded to. I would have just known to ignore it.

 

[daffy]

that lollipop chainsaw game or whatever, but I guess the target demographic is already pretty apparent from the get go.

Lollipop Chainsaw looks and sounds fun as hell. what women (or man) is taking that game srs?

 

[Satch]

Lollipop Chainsaw looks and sounds fun as hell. what women (or man) is taking that game srs?

That's actually another part of the issue - when the objectification is done and somebody responds to it, it's met with "Yeah, but who takes this seriously?"

I mean, at the end of the day, that would leave barely any objectification to be upset about if all we're supposed to do is brush it off as not to be taken seriously. That leaves a lot of female characters to not be taken seriously.

...which means the pool of female characters that ARE to be taken seriously is incredibly small.

Yo, real talk, my favorite video game character is Bayonetta, but like they say in Sesame Street, "Cookies are a 'sometimes' food." Bayonetta is a 'sometimes' female character.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Well if there is a reason for the sexism then I guess it's fine.

he didn't say it was fine, in fact he said it was terrible.

 

[Future]

Games are driven by male fantasy. Having a girl lead a Mario/Zelda ish game Will never get made as people think it will only appeal to the tiny female audience. I use those too games as examples because they don't sexualize anything.

If a female is the lead, then it follows the example of most blockbuster movies. Gotta be hot. But the men gotta be hot too, and they are often sexualized as well

I think the best compromise is something like metroid. She's a chick, but she doesn't use her sexuality in her stories and barely shows it off to the player sans a few end screens.

 

[DragonGirl]

And I break what I said just hours ago... sexualization is not inherently wrong. It's sexualization used as a character's only quality that is wrong.

Sexualization isn't the same thing as sexy character design. Sexualization inherently is using a character's sexual traits as her only or primary qualities.

Sexiness is an additive quality of character design: This character has personality, motivations, takes action, and also looks hot.

Sexualization inherently diminishes a character to object status: This character's dress, posture, and/or behavior display her sexual qualities. She might have a personality and a backstory, but they often take a back seat to what's on screen.

I have seen many sexy male characters. I can not think of any sexualized ones (outside of games that are using this trope deliberately for humor, especially homophobic brands of humor).

 

[CorvoSol]

or skin tight shirt Chris Redfield
or stupid sexy Raiden skin tight suit
or the fact that Nathan Drake looks like he came out of an Abercrombie ad.

Or Golbez in a towel.

Didn't we just have this thread?

Also, I wanna mention Jill of the Jungle. It was a platformer that flipped the whole damsel in distress thing around, iirc. Most importantly, though, Jill could turn into a fish and a bird and stuff. That was always cool.

 

[cheststrongwell]

Male and female video game characters are almost always generic tropes. Dudes are muscle heads and women are hardbodies. Most video games aren't art, just enjoyable time wasters. I don't even want to think about society's ills while playing games. I just want to shoot dudes in the face.

 

[Gotchaye]

Yo, real talk, my favorite video game character is Bayonetta, but like they say in Sesame Street, "Cookies are a 'sometimes' food." Bayonetta is a 'sometimes' female character.

Basically this. There's no inherent problem with a game like Lollipop Chainsaw. The problem is when the rest of the medium is such that it's hard to know if Lollipop Chainsaw is merely an extreme example of the norm, a parody, or its own over-the-top thing.

Again, the problem is not particular examples, it is the fact that certain things are normal. We talk about specific examples because that's how you point to a general problem.

 

[Femmeworth]

Samus is also one of my favorite game characters and for the most part, an example of one way to do it right (Ignoring Other M here, it didn't happen). But at the same time, demonstrates the sort of obliviousness of developers, or perhaps blinders many have on where exploitation is concerned. In the games, Samus is a character who happens to be female, just like how most other characters just happen to be male (how many times do you think a character designer creates a male marine, or cowboy, or adventurer, or plumber and asks himself "gee, when I develop this character's personality, how shall I show his masculine side?). Samus' sex is irrelevant. Up to the 16 bit days, I wasn't bothered by her end of game reveal because it never struck me as fan service. She wasn't standing around in cheesecake poses, she was just revealed to be female and the end credits rolled. This changed with Fusion and Zero Mission, where certain endings did reward players with Samus cheesecake. Then along came the abominable Zero Suit.

Do you think there ever would have been a Zero Suit version if Samus had been male? Let's ask Master Chief.

Are you saying it wasn't fanservice? It most definitely was. Characters don't just "happen" to be of a specific gender. It's a conscious choice, I doubt they flipped a coin. Samus' gender would have most likely been more emphasized if the older games had more of a narrative, especially Super Metroid.

 

[Vermillion]

Sexualization isn't the same thing as sexy character design. Sexualization inherently is using a character's sexual traits as her only or primary qualities.

Sexiness is an additive quality of character design: This character has personality, motivations, takes action, and also looks hot.

Sexualization inherently diminishes a character to object status: This character's dress, posture, and/or behavior display her sexual qualities. She might have a personality and a backstory, but they often take a back seat to what's on screen.

I have seen many sexy male characters. I can not think of any sexualized ones (outside of games that are using this trope deliberately for humor, especially homophobic brands of humor).

Well, wrong word, then, but you get what I mean.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Fighting games dont have that many "Fighting FuckToys" imo, certain designs fit the character and type they are going for.

 

[Femmeworth]

Fighting games dont have that many "Fighting FuckToys" imo, certain designs fit the character and type they are going for.

Could you please provide some examples?

 

[DragonGirl]

Basically this. There's no inherent problem with a game like Lollipop Chainsaw. The problem is when the rest of the medium is such that it's hard to know if Lollipop Chainsaw is merely an extreme example of the norm, a parody, or its own over-the-top thing.

Again, the problem is not particular examples, it is the fact that certain things are normal. We talk about specific examples because that's how you point to a general problem.

Indeed. It's back to the "male is default for general audiences" issue. However, I will say this. While I have no problem with games that intentionally take aim at the male labido. I must ask, where are the games of equal notoriety that do the same for women? Where's our DOA Xtreme Guys Playing Soccer in Speedos? Even where it's appropriate to segregate audiences by sex, only one half gets catered to.

 

[Atomski]

GTA games always make me feel like a chauvinistic bastard. Always makes women seem dumb and whorish.