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[rohlfinator]

Would Mirror's Edge, BG&E or Alice really have sold better with a male lead? I doubt it.

True, and either way it's kind of telling that a lot of the games with female leads are the more experimental titles (gameplay-wise) that already aren't targeted straight at the lowest-common-denominator male 18-35 demographic. The successful franchises with female leads mostly either started out more experimental (like Portal) or as eye-candy for men (Tomb Raider).

 

[Onemic]

Are you saying it wasn't fanservice? It most definitely was. Characters don't just "happen" to be of a specific gender. It's a conscious choice, I doubt they flipped a coin. Samus' gender would have most likely been more emphasized if the older games had more of a narrative.

I like how this is a discussion of how sexualized Samus, of all characters is.

GTA games always make me feel like a chauvinistic bastard. Always makes women seem dumb and whorish.

Everyone's a scumbag in that series though. The dumbassedness gets thrown around to everyone, not just women.

 

[Femmeworth]

I like how this is a discussion of how sexualized Samus, of all characters is.

I didn't mean to derail, I swear. :x I'm not trying to say that Samus is a really bad case, but she isn't a really great one either.

 

[Karsticles]

Games are driven by male fantasy. Having a girl lead a Mario/Zelda ish game Will never get made as people think it will only appeal to the tiny female audience. I use those too games as examples because they don't sexualize anything.

If a female is the lead, then it follows the example of most blockbuster movies. Gotta be hot. But the men gotta be hot too, and they are often sexualized as well

I think the best compromise is something like metroid. She's a chick, but she doesn't use her sexuality in her stories and barely shows it off to the player sans a few end screens.

Your point is taken, as Peach does have her own games, and they don't sell particularly well.

However, I think all Zelda fans agree that a game with Zelda as the main character would be absolutely badass. Give a kind of mage-y setup like she has in Smash Bros.

I didn't mean to derail, I swear. :x I'm not trying to say that Samus is a really bad case, but she isn't a really great one either.

She's a great example. Just look at how angry Metroid fans were over her portrayal in Other M. Samus fans love her as a loner badass. As a huge Metroid fan, I don't particularly care about ZSS one way or the other. Why shouldn't sexiness be part of a quality female character? Does she need to be ugly or unfit to be a good example? The end screens you get are pretty tame.

 

[rohlfinator]

GTA games always make me feel like a chauvinistic bastard. Always makes women seem dumb and whorish.

To be fair, there aren't a lot upstanding male role models in GTA either. Pretty much everyone in that universe is a bit of a shitheel.

 

[Dylan]

I think people see imagery in fiction that doesn't match up with reality and they have a knee-jerk reaction to "correct" it. It seems silly to me. Video games, movies, comics, etc aren't meant to reflect reality. That's the whole point of creating a work of fiction. If you don't like the characters in a game, play one that features good characters. If you really hate them all, nobody is stopping you from writing your own.

 

[Gotchaye]

GTA games always make me feel like a chauvinistic bastard. Always makes women seem dumb and whorish.

This is actually why I couldn't stand GTA 4. And it's why I'd have serious reservations about letting kids play the game. It's not just the female characters, it's that there are extended sequences where the male characters are talking about the female characters, and it's just awful. One bit that sticks out in my mind is when you're in a helicopter with some rich asshole. I understand that there can be an artistic purpose for that sort of thing, but I think the game glamorizes that in such a way that it isn't obvious that that kind of talk and those attitudes aren't to be imitated. Whereas messaging about how it's important not to imitate the violence we see in games and movies is everywhere.

 

[Onemic]

I didn't mean to derail, I swear. :x I'm not trying to say that Samus is a really bad case, but she isn't a really great one either.

I still can't agree that she's overtly sexualized in the pre-fusion games. Sure at the end of the game if you complete it 100% you get her in a 1 or 2 piece bikini, but where in those games is that sexualization her only trait? It's so small it's nearly irrelevant, 1. because it's not even present within the game itself, only until you beat it. And 2. You have to get 100% to even see that image, which is very, very hard to do. What's the percentage of people that have played the game that have gotten to 100% completion?

Anything from Fusion onward I agree with you, but before I just can't. And like I said Fusion has the the tamest 100% ending out of all those games, but I think they made her more sexualized in that game rather than less. Why? Because her character itself begins becoming a trope. Her personality becomes some stupid stereotypical trope that just whines about her male commander that she loved taking orders from. I'd even go far as to say fusions sexualization of the Samus is worse than Zero Mission, because although it had Zero suit Samus, she still retained her original personality of no bullshit in the original games.

shit and now I'm contributing to this derail....ah well, I guess it's somewhat important in the context of this thread.

 

[Femmeworth]

I still can't agree that she's overtly sexualized in the pre-fusion games. Sure at the end of the game if you complete it 100% you get her in a 1 or 2 piece bikini, but where in those games is that sexualization her only trait? It's so small it's nearly irrelevant, 1. because it's not even present within the game itself, only until you beat it. And 2. You have to get 100% to even see that image, which is very, very hard to do. What's the percentage of people that have played the game that have gotten to 100% completion?

Anything from Fusion onward I agree with you, but before I just can't. And like I said Fusion has the the tamest 100% ending out of all those games, but I think they made her more sexualized in that game rather than less.

I wasn't saying that was her only trait, but then again it's not like she really has any other traits in the early games. >_> The number of people who actually saw all of those endings back in the day is kind of a moot point.

She's a great example. Just look at how angry Metroid fans were over her portrayal in Other M. Samus fans love her as a loner badass. As a huge Metroid fan, I don't particularly care about ZSS one way or the other. Why shouldn't sexiness be part of a quality female character? Does she need to be ugly or unfit to be a good example? The end screens you get are pretty tame.

No one is saying that, though more often than not it is handled badly. She actually looked rather plain in the first Metroid Prime.

 

[Vermillion]

Indeed. It's back to the "male is default for general audiences" issue. However, I will say this. While I have no problem with games that intentionally take aim at the male libido. I must ask, where are the games of equal notoriety that do the same for women? Where's our DOA Xtreme Guys Playing Soccer in Speedos? Even where it's appropriate to segregate audiences by sex, only one half gets catered to.

Which is another thing - it's not necessary. The problem with games where the women are half-naked is the fact that there's nothing behind that character. Oftentimes no one has any sort of respect for that character beyond eyecandy status. Conversely, an attractive man is often respected and imitated. The thing I've noticed is that characters that appeal to women are still a part of the male ideal as well.

Even if you got the game filled with hot guys, it still wouldn't be equal.

 

[DragonGirl]

Are you saying it wasn't fanservice? It most definitely was. Characters don't just "happen" to be of a specific gender. It's a conscious choice, I doubt they flipped a coin. Samus' gender would have most likely been more emphasized if the older games had more of a narrative.

Actually, they kinda' did flip a coin. The game was made before the decision to make Samus female came about.

Also, yes, characters can just happen to be a gender, in that the sex of a character can be incidental, or rather, trivial to the development of the character's identity.

And yes, I don't see the early bikini shots of Samus as fan service. Mostly because she's just standing there, rather than posing in an obvious fashion. I don't see that as problematic. Please note that I did not say it wasn't fan service. I said I personally didn't see it that way until later games. I have no arguments with anyone who does see it as problematic in earlier games.

 

[Satch]

joker i'm proud of you dogg

 

[Onemic]

I wasn't saying that was her only trait, but then again it's not like she really has any other traits in the early games. >_> The number of people who actually saw all of those endings back in the day is kind of a moot point.

Stealth edit failed :<

Well can we at least agree BG&E's Jade is a great example of a person that just happens to be a woman in a leading role, rather than 'OMG Woman in game, give her big titties and a shitty personality!'

 

[Vermillion]

joker i'm proud of you dogg

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Stealth edit failed :<

Well can we at least agree BG&E's Jade is a great example of a person that just happens to be a woman in a leading role, rather than 'OMG Woman in game, give her big titties and a shitty personality!'

I don't think this is as common anymore. There are tons of examples of women characters in games that are not stereotypical big boobs bimbos

 

[cj_iwakura]

Alice Madness Returns was rather mediocre. >_> Regardless, even if all of GAF bought all of those games it wouldn't have been enough to please the publishers.

No, it was pretty great.

Glad she made it, I was considering helping out.

Looking forward to her 'good' examples video.

Like her viewpoints or not, she puts a lot of research and work into her vids, so I have high expectations.

Could you please provide some examples?

You mean examples of classy-looking characters in fighting games? Cause I can think of a lot.

Also, I noticed Anita owns BlazBlue. I wonder who she mains...

 

[Femmeworth]

No, it was pretty great.

It was fun, but it really dragged towards the end. Narrative could have been better too. Enough derailing! >_<

You mean examples of classy-looking characters in fighting games? Cause I can think of a lot.

I believe ~Devil Trigger~ was talking about sexualized characters that are that way for a legit reason.

 

[SuperAngelo64]

If I cared any less I'd only car.

 

[cj_iwakura]

It was fun, but it really dragged towards the end. Narrative could have been better too. Enough derailing! >_<

I believe ~Devil Trigger~ was talking about sexualized characters that are that way for a legit reason.

Morrigan comes to mind, being a succubus.

 

[Slavik81]

Indeed. It's back to the "male is default for general audiences" issue. However, I will say this. While I have no problem with games that intentionally take aim at the male libido. I must ask, where are the games of equal notoriety that do the same for women? Where's our DOA Xtreme Guys Playing Soccer in Speedos? Even where it's appropriate to segregate audiences by sex, only one half gets catered to.

Near as I can tell, the female equivalent of Playboy isn't Playgirl. It's 50 Shades of Grey. I know it's bad to extrapolate from annedotal evidence, but from what I've seen the slash stories on fanfiction.net are a million times more popular with women than porn videos. DOA Xtreme Guys in Speedos is probably not going to appeal to women even if it's the direct equivalent of DOA Beach Volleyball. [1]

So where's the 50 Shades of Grey of video games? Not sure. A dating sim is probably the closest anyone's ever gotten, but even that's probably a little to rudimentary to widely appeal. I don't think everyone's figured out how to make a character-driven game like that.

In the long term, I think there'd be a lot of benefit to having more women in game development. I could see stuff like that being explored by some women in the indie space. That means supporting programs like Women in Science and Engineering (WISE). Personally, I don't think I can make a game that appeals specifically to women, and I have no reason to believe that very many other men would be much better at it than me. Female input into the development process is therefore a must.

[1] I realize I moved one step up the sexual explicitness scale with those examples, but I think the trend remains more or less the same.

I wasn't saying that was her only trait, but then again it's not like she really has any other traits in the early games. >_>

I see her as the female equivalent of Boba Fett. They don't really say much, but they're still kick-ass characters. Their actions define their character.

 

[Onemic]

I don't think this is as common anymore. There are tons of examples of women characters in games that are not stereotypical big boobs bimbos

I agree, they are still there though. Insert any game made by Team Ninja.

Personally, I don't think I can make a game that appeals specifically to women, and I have no reason to believe that very many other men would be much better at it than me. Female input into the development process is therefore a must.

The real question is, why would you want to? Why not just make games that have women in them, rather than it having to be a game that specifically targets only women in order for it to have a female lead?

 

[Femmeworth]

Morrigan comes to mind, being a succubus.

Eh, she really doesn't need that much cleavage to get the point across. Also you don't have to have your tits hanging out to be seductive.

 

[Karsticles]

I believe ~Devil Trigger~ was talking about sexualized characters that are that way for a legit reason.

The most obvious example.

Eh, she really doesn't need that much cleavage to get the point across. Also you don't have to have your tits hanging out to be seductive.

I think Morrigan, being the succubus, knows what she needs to get the point across. Regardless, that you're arguing about whether it's "too much" is a concession, I take it?

 

[Onemic]

Eh, she really doesn't need that much cleavage to get the point across. Also you don't have to have your tits hanging out to be seductive.

....She's a succubus. There's Lilith anyway to counter Morrigan.

 

[Femmeworth]

....She's a succubus. There's Lilith anyway to counter Morrigan.

Lilith is a loli, something far worse. >_> Also:

In modern fictional representations, a succubus may or may not appear in dreams and is often depicted as a highly attractive seductress or enchantress; whereas, in the past, succubi were generally depicted as frightening and demonic.

When it comes to sexualized women in fighting games, I really think it's a case of having your cake and trying to eat it too. Fighting games are pretty thin on characterization/narrative to begin with. They are all about fanservice too.

 

[Data West]

GTA games always make me feel like a chauvinistic bastard. Always makes women seem dumb and whorish.

I don't know where you get that. Catalina and Elizabeta are far from damsels in distress. If anything, I'd say GTA makes their women look better than their men. Look at Brucie, Roman, etc. All terrible people.

I also think Boss is a better character than Samus and Bayonetta, and I'd play a game about her. Notice that I just said better character not even better female character.

 

[Onemic]

Lilith is a loli, something far worse. >_>

Wait, what's a loli?

 

[Vermillion]

Wait, what's a loli?

Stay pure

 

[Gotchaye]

Eh, she really doesn't need that much cleavage to get the point across. Also you don't have to have your tits hanging out to be seductive.

Also you can of course construct imaginary worlds where it makes sense in the fictional context for all of the women to be scantily clad and built like porn stars. There's still a problem if the background is being chosen because it allows for those sorts of excuses.

Why does Morrigan look like that? Because she's a succubus. So why is Morrigan a succubus? I'd be shocked if the character design didn't precede the biography. Looking it up on Wikipedia (I knew absolutely nothing about this character or series), that seems to be the case.

 

[Karsticles]

Lilith is a loli, something far worse. >_> Also:

Agreed.

On the Wikipedia quote, that's just a modern trend in general. Christianity started the images of demons as grotesque creatures of filth, and modernity has transformed demons into creatures like Morrigan and Dante. Even if the demon isn't sexy, we make sure it looks cool, like Diablo. We idolize demons now instead of fear them. It's a cultural shift.

Wait, what's a loli?

I didn't know someone could be in the internet this long and be so clean in the mind.

Also you can of course construct imaginary worlds where it makes sense in the fictional context for all of the women to be scantily clad and built like porn stars. There's still a problem if the background is being chosen because it allows for those sorts of excuses.

Why does Morrigan look like that? Because she's a succubus. So why is Morrigan a succubus? I'd be shocked if the character design didn't precede the biography. Looking it up on Wikipedia (I knew absolutely nothing about this character or series), that seems to be the case.

Actually, Morrigan started out as the "cutesy" character in Darkstalkers. Felicia was going to be the seductress archetype. Darkstalkers is a series that pulls from a variety of monster archetypes and makes a character out of them. A vampire, ghost, zombie, mummy, and fishman are all in there.

 

[Femmeworth]

Wait, what's a loli?

I envy you, I really do.

Also you can of course construct imaginary worlds where it makes sense in the fictional context for all of the women to be scantily clad and built like porn stars. There's still a problem if the background is being chosen because it allows for those sorts of excuses.

Why does Morrigan look like that? Because she's a succubus. So why is Morrigan a succubus? I'd be shocked if the character design didn't precede the biography. Looking it up on Wikipedia (I knew absolutely nothing about this character or series), that seems to be the case.

That's a very good point.

 

[cj_iwakura]

My anti-trope female would probably be Yuko Takao from SMT Nocturne.

She's just a concerned teacher who takes the fate of the world into her hands. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Nert]

For those of you that haven't watched any of the previous Feminist Frequency videos, I recommend checking them out. They're well produced, they get to the point, and they're highly informative. If you have any familiarity with films from last year, this video serves as a great starting point.

I'm definitely looking forward to her work on this topic.

 

[Black-Wind]

Are you saying it wasn't fanservice? It most definitely was. Characters don't just "happen" to be of a specific gender. It's a conscious choice, I doubt they flipped a coin. Samus' gender would have most likely been more emphasized if the older games had more of a narrative, especially Super Metroid.

I thought she "just happened" to be female because Metroid is based on Alien ... :/

 

[Gotchaye]

Actually, Morrigan started out as the "cutesy" character in Darkstalkers. Felicia was going to be the seductress archetype. Darkstalkers is a series that pulls from a variety of monster archetypes and makes a character out of them. A vampire, ghost, zombie, mummy, and fishman are all in there.

Yeah, that's what I got from the Wikipedia page.

Initially, Felicia was intended to be the "sexy" female character of the title, while the vampire would be the "cute" female character. However, Morrigan's design took on a tone that emphasized sexiness, causing Felicia's character concept to be altered accordingly.

The designers went in intending this sort of sexy/cute pairing, and that motivated the (biography/background) design. It's not that someone had a great story idea about a succubus. Am I reading that wrong?

 

[Hansel]

Holy shit, that girl in the video is so hot.

 

[Femmeworth]

My anti-trope female would probably be Yuko Takao from SMT Nocturne.



She's just a concerned teacher who takes the fate of the world into her hands. Nothing more, nothing less.

She's wearing heels, a symbol of the modern day oppression of women.

Spoiler

I'm joking! Though heels really do suck.

 

[Onemic]

I envy you, I really do.

.

You guys are making me scared to know what it is -_-

 

[Karsticles]

Yeah, that's what I got from the Wikipedia page.

The designers went in intending this sort of sexy/cute pairing, and that motivated the (biography/background) design. It's not that someone had a great story idea about a succubus. Am I reading that wrong?

I don't think Morrigan's design has a particularly strong impact on her backstory or biography. However, her sexuality plays a very heavy role in her character personality, fighting style, and moveset names. She's a good example of how her aesthetics play a very heavy role in the overall character. I don't think the same could have been done with Felicia.

You're right that there was an intended sexy/cute pairing, but that's pretty much Japanese fighting games 101 right there. If you've ever read interviews with BlazBlu's character designer, you hear the same sorts of things. However, that she starts out as a sexual emblem doesn't preclude her from becoming an interesting and developed character, and especially not one based on her aesthetic. Unless you're divinely inspired, everything starts out as an archetype. "We need a big muscly ninja guy" becomes Ryu Hayabusa, etc.

For those of you that haven't watched any of the previous Feminist Frequency videos, I recommend checking them out. They're well produced, they get to the point, and they're highly informative. If you have any familiarity with films from last year, this video serves as a great starting point.

I'm definitely looking forward to her work on this topic.

I think I've gotten enough feminist arguments to last me a lifetime. I can't imagine listening to it in my spare time. It's not like the subject matter is complex and you really learn something new.

You guys are making me scared to know what it is -_-

The term "loli" comes from a book called "Lolita", which is about an older man who develops a sexual relationship with a 12 year old girl:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita

"Lolita" was shortened to "loli" via internet dark magic, and now the word refers to any girl who is underdeveloped so as to have a child-like appearance while being of legal age of consent. A "lolicon" is a fan of lolis.

Morrigan's "sister", Lilith, is a loli:

 

[Satch]

I thought she "just happened" to be female because Metroid is based on Alien ... :/

They pretty much said:

"lol what if samus is a girl?"

"lol ok lets do it"

 

[Oblivion]

edit: really people?

so apparently I should say that she's NOT hot.

...this is somehow supposed to be LESS insulting and MORE empowering to women.

 

[HarryHengst]

Look at those gaffers thinking they are clever by making a sexist comment.

 

[Gotchaye]

So does someone need to call out "the girl in the video is hot" or do we all understand that that poster's being inappropriate?

Edit: Oh, and Oblivion just above. Seriously, people. I get that you're trolling, but cut it out.

 

[Oblivion]

Does that even really count as being "sexist"?

 

[Onemic]

The term "loli" comes from a book called "Lolita", which is about an older man who develops a sexual relationship with a 12 year old girl:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita

"Lolita" was shortened to "loli" via internet dark magic, and now the word refers to any girl who is underdeveloped so as to have a child-like appearance while being of legal age of consent. A "lolicon" is a fan of lolis.

Morrigan's "sister", Lilith, is a loli:
http://www.fightersgeneration.com/np6/char2/ds/ds3/lilith-ds3-art.png[img][/QUOTE]

Well, damn.

 

[Karsticles]

So does someone need to call out "the girl in the video is hot" or do we all understand that that poster's being inappropriate?

Edit: Oh, and Oblivion just above. Seriously, people. I get that you're trolling, but cut it out.

Why not just ignore him? If it's really that inappropriate, I'm sure a moderator will give the poster his/her due.

Does that even really count as being "sexist"?

These days, being "sexist" generally just means that you say anything about a gender that offends someone. I was at school a month ago and said "Yeah, my wife keeps our schedule together. She just tells me where to go, and I'm there." A girl next to me said she was going to go somewhere "less sexist", and left. I still don't know what she was talking about, because last I checked, my wife controlling my schedule sounds like a rather empowering thing. It's not like she's my secretary or I force it upon her.

Well, damn.

Erm, you are welcome? :-/

 

[AAK]

This is definitely going to take here at least 2 years to plow through a bunch of major games released this generation alone to complete her research... How broad to she plan on delving into the topic of women in games?

 

[Onemic]

Back to the game in question, why exactly is the gears female character in that list? There's nothing about her that's sexualized at all. Unless I'm not seeing something I should.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Back to the game in question, why exactly is the gears female character in that list? There's nothing about her that's sexualized at all. Unless I'm not seeing something I should.

I'm assuming that's a different trope. It doesn't have to be sexual, i.e. damsel in distress.

 

[Onemic]

I'm assuming that's a different trope. It doesn't have to be sexual, i.e. damsel in distress.

What trope can it be? I've never really seen something like that in gaming or in general. The closest I can think of to that is Brienne in Game of Thrones and she definitely is not a trope.