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[Mael]

You probably won't be able to find someone who gives less of a shit about objectifying people in games (when fucking games provides avatars as tools it kinda goes with the medium you'd think) but still I found this part funny.

-instrumentality: the treatment of a person as a tool for the objectifier's purposes;

Yeah when in games ALL of the characters are freaking tools for the players/designers to use :/
Can't exactly complain about characters being treated as tools when that's pretty much all they are.

-denial of autonomy: the treatment of a person as lacking in autonomy and self-determination;

That's even more funny, the whole point of a game is to provide interactivity to the players so that you actually strip the characters of their autonomy for the benefit of the player.

-inertness: the treatment of a person as lacking in agency, and perhaps also in activity;

Guess what happens when you don't play?

-fungibility: the treatment of a person as interchangeable with other objects;

I don't think I've played a game where characters weren't fungible entities that could be swapped about others (even more funny in 2D games with palette swaps)

-violability: the treatment of a person as lacking in boundary-integrity;

That's actually something that should not be a restriction to the player, I mean that's the whole point of the illusion of freedom in some games

-ownership: the treatment of a person as something that is owned by another (can be bought or sold);

yeah better tell that to capcom selling characters in their fighting games

-denial of subjectivity: the treatment of a person as something whose experiences and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account.

Well duh, in a game the only one who's experience is important is the player and that's all.

If it's about the treatment for female characters in games and not the relationship between player/avatar it's even less interesting considering that for all that's actually happening in games and how the 'story' portion is treated you could replace every characters with spongebob impersonations and the game wouldn't even be less fun.

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

That's not saying much.

What's the name of that other jrpg with the best, most complex character being black?
I can't remember the name of it, maybe because it doesnt exist?

Spoiler

yeah it's still not a great game but whatever you take what you can get

 

[Slavik81]

Watching more and more of feministfrequency, I find myself agreeing with her less and less. Not that she doesn't have a lot of good points. If it was mostly bad, I'd not have agreed with her to begin with. As I watch further through her videos, though, it becomes increasingly unclear to me what she feels the ideal future world should look like and how we should get there.

The real question is, why would you want to? Why not just make games that have women in them, rather than it having to be a game that specifically targets only women in order for it to have a female lead?

I think you're reading a little too much that wasn't there. I don't think it needs to be a game targeted at women to have a female lead. The post I was responding to was about a lack of games specifically targeted at women. I don't think there's really anything wrong with aiming for a demographic. It would be fantastic if there were some female-targeted games that were good enough to have widespread appeal. We'd have a much more interesting and diverse set of games to choose from if that were the case.

 

[Femmeworth]

You probably won't be able to find someone who gives less of a shit about objectifying people in games (when fucking games provides avatars as tools it kinda goes with the medium you'd think) but still I found this part funny.


Yeah when in games ALL of the characters are freaking tools for the players/designers to use :/
Can't exactly complain about characters being treated as tools when that's pretty much all they are.


That's even more funny, the whole point of a game is to provide interactivity to the players so that you actually strip the characters of their autonomy for the benefit of the player.

Guess what happens when you don't play?

I don't think I've played a game where characters weren't fungible entities that could be swapped about others (even more funny in 2D games with palette swaps)

That's actually something that should not be a restriction to the player, I mean that's the whole point of the illusion of freedom in some games

yeah better tell that to capcom selling characters in their fighting games

Well duh, in a game the only one who's experience is important is the player and that's all.

If it's about the treatment for female characters in games and not the relationship between player/avatar it's even less interesting considering that for all that's actually happening in games and how the 'story' portion is treated you could replace every characters with spongebob impersonations and the game wouldn't even be less fun.

I posted that in regards to objectifying people, not video game characters. Just to be clear.

They shouldn't be, since they're in tandem with one another. There's a double negative in the first sentence that might be misleading you.

Your comma was throwing me off.

 

[Mael]

I posted that in regards to objectifying people, not video game characters. Just to be clear.

What? I missed the discussion about objectifying VG characters?
Because really if it's about objectifying people this thread should be in OT then.

 

[Karsticles]

I posted that in regards to objectifying people, not video game characters. Just to be clear.

Your comma was throwing me off.

You're right, but he also has a good point I think, and it's this: if people don't want women to be objectified in games, what does that even mean, when game characters are necessarily forms of objectification?

No worries about the comma.

Heh, funny how you dont like it, its a perfect example of acting like you say people do.

What are you talking about? I didn't say I didn't like it. I thought your point was really obvious as an attempt to mock my perspective, so I just gave you my blessings and moved on. Reading comprehension is a lost art.

 

[HarryHengst]

You're right, but he also has a good point I think, and it's this: if people don't want women to be objectified in games, what does that even mean, when game characters are necessarily forms of objectification?

No worries about the comma.

There is no reason that this is necessarily true. Its just the current state of the games industry, which is weird because the main audience for games isnt really the 16 year old boy anymore.

 

[Femmeworth]

Watching more and more of feministfrequency, I find myself agreeing with her less and less. Not that she doesn't have a lot of good points. If it was mostly bad, I'd not have agreed with her to begin with. As I watch further through her videos, though, it becomes increasingly unclear to me what she feels the ideal future world should look like and how we should get there.

She's not the most knowledgeable. In the GQ Glee photo shoot video, she didn't bring up the point that being attracted to high schoolers doesn't make you a pedophile. It makes you an ephebophile.

 

[HarryHengst]

She's not the most knowledgeable. In the GQ Glee photo shoot video, she didn't bring up the point that being attracted to high schoolers doesn't make you a pedophile. It makes you an ephebophile.

Doesnt make lusting after 14 year olds any less creepy.

 

[Mael]

There is no reason that this is necessarily true. Its just the current state of the games industry, which is weird because the main audience for games isnt really the 16 year old boy anymore.

No, really they ARE. For one simple reason, the more freedom you give a character the less the player have.
Games are really not films, the player is really the most important part of the equation the rest are mere tools to be used.
Now we can all agree that stereotypes are boring and shouldn't be used, regardlless of them being about white/black/girl/women/thing/L-block.

 

[Karsticles]

There is no reason that this is necessarily true. Its just the current state of the games industry, which is weird because the main audience for games isnt really the 16 year old boy anymore.

Between this and what I quoted you as saying before you deleted it, I think it's clear that you aren't understanding what's going on here.

She's not the most knowledgeable. In the GQ Glee photo shoot video, she didn't bring up the point that being attracted to high schoolers doesn't make you a pedophile. It makes you an ephebophile.

What did she say?

 

[Femmeworth]

You're right, but he also has a good point I think, and it's this: if people don't want women to be objectified in games, what does that even mean, when game characters are necessarily forms of objectification?

No worries about the comma.

Video games are a result of culture and in turn can affect culture, is where the worry stems from. If you objectify representations of women in video games, you might objectify them in real life. I'm just stating (some of) the reasoning.

What did she say?

To avoid misrepresenting what she said, here's the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX5IXYoPzDA I don't quite agree with her, but I see where she is coming from.

 

[way more]

You're right, but he also has a good point I think, and it's this: if people don't want women to be objectified in games, what does that even mean, when game characters are necessarily forms of objectification?

That's like when people said the robots in Transformers 2 couldn't be awful stereotypes because they were robots.

 

[khefka]

Humans have base emotions and instincts, coupled with the fact some don't wish to exercise thought and free will to overcome the trappings inherent. Developers will need to give us alternatives that evoke these same type of responses, good enough that societal norms are affected.

Also, I read the title as Topless Women in Video Games and then clicked the thread anyways.

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

Those actors are too old to play COLLEGE aged students

You can dress up Beyonce as a high schooler, she wouldn't instantly become not sexy until you see her character with a diploma in her hands, and you dont become a temporary ephebophile for being attracted to mid 20s actors in glee until their characters turn 18

 

[Karsticles]

Video games are a result of culture and in turn can affect culture, is where the worry stems from. If you objectify representations of women in video games, you might objectify them in real life. I'm just stating (some of) the reasoning.

To avoid misrepresenting what she said, here's the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX5IXYoPzDA I don't quite agree with her, but I see where she is coming from.

I don't think you're following the argument. His point was that video game characters are necessarily objectifed. Therefore, you can't avoid "objectifying" women in videogames by the definitions you present. You can avoid oversexualizing them, but it is constitutive of them being videogame characters that they are mere objects, and are thus necessarily objectified.

I typed something out here about how everyone necessarily objectifies people in real life, but decided it's better to just leave it out.

That's like when people said the robots in Transformers 2 couldn't be awful stereotypes because they were robots.

...what? That's not remotely in the same field of discussion as my comments.

Humans have base emotions and instincts, coupled with the fact some don't wish to exercise thought and free will to overcome the trappings inherent. Developers will need to give us alternatives that evoke these same type of responses, good enough that societal norms are affected.

Between the last post and you bringing up free will, I think this will be my last post in this thread...

 

[Femmeworth]

I don't think you're following the argument. His point was that video game characters are necessarily objectifed. Therefore, you can't avoid "objectifying" women in videogames by the definitions you present. You can avoid oversexualizing them, but it is constitutive of them being videogame characters that they are mere objects, and are thus necessarily objectified.

I typed something out here about how everyone necessarily objectifies people in real life, but decided it's better to just leave it out.

No, I followed the argument. I just didn't word my reply in a manner that would properly convey my thoughts to you, specifically. Even though video game characters are totally objects, the brain doesn't necessarily see them 100% different from humans. They are designed to mimic humans after all.

 

[A Link to the Past]

And what happens when we get a strong female lead? They get downplayed, ignored or swept under the rug. you know it to be true. Unless there is a man co leading gamers aren't hearing that. Lets stop pretending that women haven't had strong characters before, Beyond Good and Evil, Mirror's Edge, or Alice Madness Returns? Yeah, no one bought them.

Read em and weep boys.

Maybe support the change you seek instead of liking these basic YouTube videos.

I don't get this post. What does it have to do with NeoGAF watching a video on gender stereotypes in video games? Yes, these games with strong female leads exist. No, that does not mean that there isn't a problem with female characters in games.

 

[khefka]

Between the last post and you bringing up free will, I think this will be my last post in this thread...

Come back when you've reached a state of heightened humanity.

 

[Femmeworth]

Come back when you've reached a state of heightened humanity.

Free will doesn't truly exist.

 

[aku:jiki]

I know the rest of you are stuck in the endless back-and-forth loop of internet gender discussions but I'm annoyed by the whole Kickstarter thing...

I don't see anything "scamy" about that at all.

All she asked for was for 6 grand to go towards time and research so that she's not just cherry picking bs. That kinda stuff takes time and money, both of which she may not have much to donate to a free web-series. It just so happens that her message resonated with so many people that they kept donating pass her asking amount. That's how kickstarters work out some times.

Oh, come on. Video game history is only 40 years, and if we only include games where graphics are good enough for this to be a discussion, it's more like 25 years. Not only that, but all the grunt work has already been done. There's a billion articles on those sexist Atari 2600 games like Custer's Revenge, questionably sexist japanese games, hentai/porn games, bikini armors, etc. Even Seanbaby's made some minor feminist points in his articles! This is not a unique and groundbreaking idea that needs some money to get going, and that will ultimately be rewarding and bring shocking revelations to the table. It'll just be a video version of those billion articles mentioned above.

And asking money for something that's already been done is pretty damn scammy. I'm kinda pissed that people fell for it and gave her $30,000. Taking (a lot of) people's money when you don't need it is no better than being an oppressive sexist.

 

[HarryHengst]

Oh, come on. Video game history is only 40 years, and if we only include games where graphics are good enough for this to be a discussion, it's more like 25 years. Not only that, but all the grunt work has already been done. There's a billion articles on those sexist Atari 2600 games like Custer's Revenge, questionably sexist japanese games, hentai/porn games, bikini armors, etc. Even Seanbaby's made some minor feminist points in his articles! This is not a unique and groundbreaking idea that needs some money to get going, and that will ultimately be rewarding and bring shocking revelations to the table. It'll just be a video version of those billion articles mentioned above.

And asking money for something that's already been done is pretty damn scammy. I'm kinda pissed that people fell for it and gave her $30,000. Taking (a lot of) people's money when you don't need it is no better than being an oppressive sexist.

You must really hate science, which constantly proves things we already knew.

Also, who cares that people want to give her money. Its not 'taking' money, its politely asking for money, with the promise to give something in return in the future.

 

[Femmeworth]

Oh, come on. Video game history is only 40 years, and if we only include games where graphics are good enough for this to be a discussion, it's more like 25 years. Not only that, but all the grunt work has already been done. There's a billion articles on those sexist Atari 2600 games like Custer's Revenge, questionably sexist japanese games, hentai/porn games, bikini armors, etc. Even Seanbaby's made some minor feminist points in his articles! This is not a unique and groundbreaking idea that needs some money to get going, and that will ultimately be rewarding and bring shocking revelations to the table. It'll just be a video version of those billion articles mentioned above.

And asking money for something that's already been done is pretty damn scammy. I'm kinda pissed that people fell for it and gave her $30,000. Taking (a lot of) people's money when you don't need it is no better than being an oppressive sexist.

I highly, highly doubt she thought she would get so much money. Kickstarter is by no means a guarantee to get money. There is little reason to believe that she has ill intentions. She asked for $6000 initially, which doesn't go that far.

 

[Karsticles]

No, I followed the argument. I just didn't word my reply in a manner that would properly convey my thoughts to you, specifically. Even though video game characters are totally objects, the brain doesn't necessarily see them 100% different from humans. They are designed to mimic humans after all.

Fair enough.

 

[Anuxinamoon]

I've had this discussion before on polycount.. But my view still stands, Something has always unsettled me somewhat about the way women are portrayed in almost all media, watching these videos helped me realise why that was.

Yes there are tropes in video games, both male and female. When the industry and is sister industry the movie industry will start to write beyond these simple tropes, I don't know. But hopefully airing these problems and making developers and writers aware of them, will help them explore new ways to create more engaging stories.

 

[aku:jiki]

You must really hate science, which constantly proves things we already knew.

What kind of analogy is that? A researcher trying to prove the theory that water is made up of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen is not going to get grant money from anyone, nor is his paper is going to be published by anyone.

I highly, highly doubt she thought she would get so much money. Kickstarter is by no means a guarantee to get money. There is little reason to believe that she has ill intentions. She asked for $6000 initially, which doesn't go that far.

She had $15,000 as her highest amount, with content planned for it. Definitely looks like she was hoping for high amounts. And $6,000 is a hell of a lot when you already have a good camera and a set with professional lighting and shit. What about googling a few dozen of the billion articles I mentioned and cherry picking the best parts costs $6,000?

Let's say she's going to refuse to read the articles about it and instead does something like going through lists of every game for every console and checking the cover and a few screenshots for women, then when finding some sexist ones, checking out the ROM or picking up a used copy of the game... What part of doing that costs $6,000?

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

I need to get in kickstarter
give me 15k
I will create a short fucking FILM on sexism and rape culture and misogyny and why control sticks are phallic symbols of male empowerment, hell whatever you want
JUST GIVE ME 15K BY THE 29TH I NEED TO PAY RENT

 

[way more]

Waaah, this person doing research I don't like was given too much money voluntarily by the public. Wait till you guys learn how government grants and universities work.

Taking (a lot of) people's money when you don't need it is no better than being an oppressive sexist.

Where does accusing a person of misappropriation before they've done anything rank?

 

[aku:jiki]

Where does accusing a person of misappropriation before they've done anything rank?

She has like 50 videos on her YouTube, they're all conceptually the same and she does not give any indication, anywhere, that these new videos will be any different. In fact, she even says on her Kickstarter that she's not planning to change and that the money will go "towards production costs, equipment, games and downloadable content." Since she already has a good, professional camera and a set, she's lying to get money. What's the concept of lying to get money called? Oh, a scam!

Wait, no, sorry... I checked again. She totally changes out the wallpaper between videos. That's $30,000 right there. My bad.

 

[HarryHengst]

She has like 50 videos on her YouTube, they're all conceptually the same and she does not give any indication, anywhere, that these new videos will be any different. In fact, she even says on her Kickstarter that she's not planning to change and that the money will go "towards production costs, equipment, games and downloadable content." Since she already has a good, professional camera and a set, she's lying to get money. What's the concept of lying to get money called? Oh, a scam!

Wait, no, sorry... I checked again. She totally changes out the wallpaper between videos. That's $30,000 right there. My bad.

Sooooo, she offers a product which people like, partly because they know what they expect, and there are people who are willing to give her money so she can make more things those people like? And this is bad because... you dont like it? Dont you see how ridiculous you are being?

 

[AkimbO_Arcana]

Feministfrequency is great. First time I supported a kickstarter thing.

 

[aku:jiki]

Sooooo, she offers a product which people like, partly because they know what they expect, and there are people who are willing to give her money so she can make more things those people like? And this is bad because... you dont like it? Dont you see how ridiculous you are being?

She is already selling her product on YouTube. You can give her money by watching the videos, and hers seem to average 50k-100k views which actually adds up to a pretty decent paycheck. Perhaps not enough to quit her job, but not something to scoff at either. I know TimothyDeLaGhetto, as a random example, lives off YouTube and his average is 200k.

She's taking the money you don't know that you're giving her, since most people don't know how YouTube works, and then asking for even more. Exactly how is that not dishonest, and a scam? We're already compensating her for her work! Don't call me ridiculous when you're being completely ignorant as to what she's trying to do.

 

[AkimbO_Arcana]

Taking (a lot of) people's money when you don't need it is no better than being an oppressive sexist.

Uhhh...

 

[Enosh]

http://i.imgur.com/uTgZb.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]
you know what might help
if one side of the debate doesn't immediately go into "all white male gamers are fat, unemployed, racist, sexist, weak neckbeards" mode

I'm in general a lot more sympathetic to an argument if the people making it aren't shiting on me every step of the way

 

[HarryHengst]

She is already selling her product on YouTube. You can give her money by watching the videos, and hers seem to average 50k-100k views which actually adds up to a pretty decent paycheck. Perhaps not enough to quit her job, but not something to scoff at either. I know TimothyDeLaGhetto, as a random example, lives off YouTube and his average is 200k.

She's taking the money you don't know that you're giving her, since most people don't know how YouTube works, and then asking for even more. Exactly how is that not dishonest, and a scam? We're already compensating her for her work! Don't call me ridiculous when you're being completely ignorant as to what she's trying to do.

Why are you raging when people, out of their own free will, give her money? You are being angry about nothing and i really do not understand why this infuriates you this much. All she does is asking people if they want to give her money, which she will use to deliver a product in return. And some say "sure, here you go" and others, like you, say "no, go away, you are AS TERRIBLE AS A SEXIST". :lol

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Speaking of tropes versus women in video games, just look at Ubisoft's press conference.
EVERYTHING about it had a somewhat scummy feeling, from the female host pandering to neckbeards with "herp derp, I'm a female and we females love hot chicks"-joke to Tomb Raider porn-moaning for 5 minutes as she's thrown around helplessly on screen.

Gaming culture as a whole is pandering to men in a why that is pretty much sexist.

Tomb Raider was the Microsoft conference, as it's not an Ubisoft game.

Ubi had the sexy tribal topless woman dry humping the player character devoid of context Far Cry 3 bit.

 

[shinobi602]

:
to Tomb Raider porn-moaning for 5 minutes as she's thrown around helplessly on screen.

Gaming culture as a whole is pandering to men in a why that is pretty much sexist.

I know right. Who the hell screams and cries out when being assaulted, shot at, tossed like a ragdoll through a river, falling almost to your death, etc. Nobody does that!

Give me a fucking break.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

I know right. Who the hell screams and cries out when being assaulted, shot at, tossed like a ragdoll through a river, falling almost to your death, etc. Nobody does that!

Give me a fucking break.

This was the moment Wolves Evolve he had nothing in common with most of GAF. Watching that trailer and thinking "are they actually doing this?" and not only do people not have a problem with it, but they have a problem with me having a problem with it.

 

[Johann]

I know right. Who the hell screams and cries out when being assaulted, shot at, tossed like a ragdoll through a river, falling almost to your death, etc. Nobody does that!

Give me a fucking break.

I don't know about that.

 

[PdotMichael]

So I'm a sexiest and part of rape culture problem after playing Tomb Raider?

mhhh... It's not that bad.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

So I'm a sexiest and part of rape culture problem after playing Tomb Raider?

You didn't know that you were a closet rapist? Well now you know better. We must end the pervasive culture of rape that permeates every possible facet of society.

 

[truly101]

To me, some of these tropes and cliches have to have some context or relevancy to real life interactions or they mean nothing. To me, the most harmful aspects of female characters in games is what they reinforce in terms of ideal female attractiveness.
There are questions on design choices as well. I don't think a sexy female character in itself is bad until you apply context. Why is Lara Croft spelunking in short shorts? Can she not still be "sexy" and practical too?
In regards to misogyny being propagated in video games, I don't really buy it. I don't think the average male learns how to interact with women or learns respect from playing as Lara Croft or Bloodrayne or beating up Chun Li or Sonya. He learns from seeing how his dad treats his mom, how the females in his life are treated.
I think games, like other media, can reinforce images, messages etc, but those ideas have to be there in the first place.

 

[Dylan]

Why do people counter sexist tropes against women with what basically is "what about the men?!?" Countering a problem with another problem is not a solution, it's just a diversion for BOTH problems.

What makes it a problem?

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

You didn't know that you were a closet rapist? Well now you know better. We must end the pervasive culture of rape that permeates every possible facet of society.

You know, it's really fucking infuriating to see people dismissing like this real problems. "Women are extremely sexualized in games and the sexualization of the violence against them contributes to a rape culture". "LOL DOES THAT MEAN I'M A RAPIST FOR PLAYING TOMB RAIDER?????" "LOL YES YOU AREE LOLOLOLOL"

As Joker said, there's nothing wrong with sexy characters. Sexualized characters are the problem. Very few female characters have anything going for them outside of their looks or their gender. Because people create characters with personality and then create female characters to support them. They never question the gender of the former.

And give me a fucking break with the Tomb Raider defense of the ridiculous moaning. "SHE'S HURT SHE'S OBVIOUSLY GOTTA MOAN LIKE A PORNSTAR THAT'S NOT SEXIST LOL STRAWMAN". Cause, yeah, it's not like we have thousands of examples of similar characters (Nathan Drake and Solid Snake to mention a few) who go through similar crap and hey, guess how much attention is paid to their suffering and moaning. lolnone. Fuck, yesterday we had the Medal of Honor presentation when a dude was shot, almost drown, and literally three seconds later he's blowing up brown people for the good of America (and yes, I word it this way to mention another problem of gaming, but one that is not relevant to this topic and as such, unlike other people, I won't talk about this more). If that had happened to new Lara we'd have an entire chapter dedicated to her crying.

The problem is that we have very little strong female characters, and of the very few that are "badass", we get people like the gals from Gears of War who are literally just guys with tits. Because femininity isn't a good or desirable trait.

If you ask people about two strong female characters of any media, you'll probably get Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor. Ripley is a survivalist, Connor is a badass. And yet, their most recognizable traits? Ripley wants to protect Newt above all, like a mother. Connor wants to protect her son above all. They don't sacrifice their gender identity to be cool and strong and badass. And what happens when our industry takes an Ellen Ripley clone (Samus) and tries to give her a personality? A crying, whinning mess of a person with no authority or personality.

Kratos is strong and musclebound, but you know why he's not sexualized? He's ugly as all fuck. When he kills he doesn't flex in ways that showcase his muscles to us, he kills in ways that makes him look badass to you. When he's done we don't get long shots of him all covered in blood and sweat, we see his enemies slaughtered. If there's one female character that is in anything similar to him, you won't find her in a videogame. You'll find her in Kill Bill.

 

[Chuckpebble]

Thanks for the video link, will watch with an open mind.

I'm interested in what she sees as solutions to the problems she'll point out. I play games. Some of them have the eye candy that is clearly pandering to me. Some of it makes me feel guilty, (Soul Calibur 2) some of it doesn't bother me at all (P.N.03), am I supposed to stop playing these games that she lists?

I respect women in real life, I just happen to be a sucker for the female form as well.

 

[2San]

You know, it's really fucking infuriating to see people dismissing like this real problems. "Women are extremely sexualized in games and the sexualization of the violence against them contributes to a rape culture". "LOL DOES THAT MEAN I'M A RAPIST FOR PLAYING TOMB RAIDER?????" "LOL YES YOU AREE LOLOLOLOL"

As Joker said, there's nothing wrong with sexy characters. Sexualized characters are the problem. Very few female characters have anything going for them outside of their looks or their gender. Because people create characters with personality and then create female characters to support them. They never question the gender of the former.

What's wrong with Sexualized characters?

 

[spandexmonkey]

What's wrong with Sexualized characters?

Men need to be sexualized just as often as women are currently, at least thats what my wife keeps saying. She's not offended by female eye candy, so long as they give something for the ladies to look at.

 

[2San]

Men need to be sexualized just as often as women are currently, at least thats what my wife keeps saying. She's not offended by female eye candy, so long as they give something for the ladies to look at.

But they are? Unless you're talking about games who's main target audience are heterosexual males who like sexualized characters(which might describe the actual creators as well)?

 

[ElectricBlue187]

You know, it's really fucking infuriating to see people dismissing like this real problems. "Women are extremely sexualized in games and the sexualization of the violence against them contributes to a rape culture". "LOL DOES THAT MEAN I'M A RAPIST FOR PLAYING TOMB RAIDER?????" "LOL YES YOU AREE LOLOLOLOL"

As Joker said, there's nothing wrong with sexy characters. Sexualized characters are the problem. Very few female characters have anything going for them outside of their looks or their gender. Because people create characters with personality and then create female characters to support them. They never question the gender of the former.

And give me a fucking break with the Tomb Raider defense of the ridiculous moaning. "SHE'S HURT SHE'S OBVIOUSLY GOTTA MOAN LIKE A PORNSTAR THAT'S NOT SEXIST LOL STRAWMAN". Cause, yeah, it's not like we have thousands of examples of similar characters (Nathan Drake and Solid Snake to mention a few) who go through similar crap and hey, guess how much attention is paid to their suffering and moaning. lolnone. Fuck, yesterday we had the Medal of Honor presentation when a dude was shot, almost drown, and literally three seconds later he's blowing up brown people for the good of America (and yes, I word it this way to mention another problem of gaming, but one that is not relevant to this topic and as such, unlike other people, I won't talk about this more). If that had happened to new Lara we'd have an entire chapter dedicated to her crying.

The problem is that we have very little strong female characters, and of the very few that are "badass", we get people like the gals from Gears of War who are literally just guys with tits. Because femininity isn't a good or desirable trait.

If you ask people about two strong female characters of any media, you'll probably get Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor. Ripley is a survivalist, Connor is a badass. And yet, their most recognizable traits? Ripley wants to protect Newt above all, like a mother. Connor wants to protect her son above all. They don't sacrifice their gender identity to be cool and strong and badass. And what happens when our industry takes an Ellen Ripley clone (Samus) and tries to give her a personality? A crying, whinning mess of a person with no authority or personality.

Kratos is strong and musclebound, but you know why he's not sexualized? He's ugly as all fuck. When he kills he doesn't flex in ways that showcase his muscles to us, he kills in ways that makes him look badass to you. When he's done we don't get long shots of him all covered in blood and sweat, we see his enemies slaughtered. If there's one female character that is in anything similar to him, you won't find her in a videogame. You'll find her in Kill Bill.

So you want women who reinforce gender stereotypes in games? That's progress to you? Women are shown in combat and stuff in games because that's pretty much what games are about. Combat. Its simply a way for the player to have the most interesting amount of agency in a given environment. Not everything has to be a judgement on your sexuality.

 

[Hari Seldon]

You know, there is this book that I have been reading out of curiosity that is TARGETED TOWARDS WOMEN. 50 Shades of Grey. Perhaps you have heard of it? It is a huge bestseller. Maybe video games should include actual male dominated BDSM to attract women into the genre. It is funny that some people scoff at video games for having the equivalent of hooters girls, while a best seller like 50 Shades is targeted to and accepted by women.