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Tropes versus Women in Video Games

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But they are? Unless you're talking about games who's main target audience are heterosexual males who like sexualized characters(which might describe the actual creators as well)?
Men arent as sexualized as women in games. Until you get male playable characters with dick physics and visible huge bulges in their pants, and women constantly talking about raping men (just look at Arkham City and how it portrayed npc's talking about Catwoman) there is no comparison.
 
Speaking of tropes versus women in video games, just look at Ubisoft's press conference.
EVERYTHING about it had a somewhat scummy feeling, from the female host pandering to neckbeards with "herp derp, I'm a female and we females love hot chicks"-joke to Tomb Raider porn-moaning for 5 minutes as she's thrown around helplessly on screen.

Gaming culture as a whole is pandering to men in a why that is pretty much sexist.

The UbiSoft conference was the first time in my life where I was literally embarrassed to be a gamer. They opened with bare breasts and a woman sitting on the character in first person view and the audience/streams went crazy for it. The host made me cringe with her "I'm such a girl, but I'm one of you guys" attitude. The Shootmania thing with the boys vs girls match and the girls in short shorts.

Someone mentioned that games directed at girls don't sell as well because there are less girl gamers. Well, it's one of those things where you need to create the audience. There are less girl gamers because you have less games directed at girls. You have to put in the effort to grow that market.

I've grown up with games, but when I see stuff like at the UbiSoft conference, I want to stop associating with this industry. I can't imagine any other girl, especially non-gamers seeing that and thinking that games are a welcoming thing.
I have never felt so left out and outcast from the "boy's club" that is video games.
 
Tomb Raider was the Microsoft conference, as it's not an Ubisoft game.

Ubi had the sexy tribal topless woman dry humping the player character devoid of context Far Cry 3 bit.
bu- bu- but they really don't wear bras on those islands, and dry humping is probably their way of saying hello and... and-

....
 
The UbiSoft conference was the first time in my life where I was literally embarrassed to be a gamer. They opened with bare breasts and a woman sitting on the character in first person view and the audience/streams went crazy for it. The host made me cringe with her "I'm such a girl, but I'm one of you guys" attitude. The Shootmania thing with the boys vs girls match and the girls in short shorts.

Someone mentioned that games directed at girls don't sell as well because there are less girl gamers. Well, it's one of those things where you need to create the audience. There are less girl gamers because you have less games directed at girls. You have to put in the effort to grow that market.

I've grown up with games, but when I see stuff like at the UbiSoft conference, I want to stop associating with this industry. I can't imagine any other girl, especially non-gamers seeing that and thinking that games are a welcoming thing.
I have never felt so left out and outcast from the "boy's club" that is video games.

This I can understand and sympathize with. Some parts of the gaming 'culture' described above really need to be nuked from orbit.
 
Men arent as sexualized as women in games. Until you get male playable characters with dick physics and visible huge bulges in their pants, and women constantly talking about raping men (just look at Arkham City and how it portrayed npc's talking about Catwoman) there is no comparison.
These games are targeted at MEN and a certain portion of them probably like sexualized characters(or aren't bothered by it). Even if men aren't sexualized as women why is that a problem? Maybe men relatively to women like sexualized characters more. In Japan there are visual novels targeted at women, guess what the characters look like.
 
I think I'm the only person who doesn't find Lara's moaning the slightest bit sexual in the new game. Its annoying but I don't think of her in some sort of coital extasy until GAF brings it up.
 
What's wrong with Sexualized characters?

A character defined exclusively by their sexual characteristics, by itself, shouldn't be anything wrong. It's when most female characters in the industry are sexualized when it becomes a big problem. Their only trait is their sexuality. And, throughout history, that's how women have mostly been seen. As sexual objects. Why do you think half the insults directed towards female gamers are about sex? Because these bunch of idiots have grown up in an environment where that's THE quality of women. That ties back to the idea of "rape culture", which is this to the extreme. If women are about sex, and just about sex, why can't someone just take it if they want to?

Some sexualization isn't bad. As someone said, a game like DOA Beachball or whatever is called isn't the problem. For an example of a developer who actually know what they're doing, Rockstar. The prostitutes in GTA are talked about whenever someone brings up the game, a lot of promotional material depicts them. And it's obviously in a sexualized manner. But it doesn't matter, because they're not really characters, all their characterization must come from the thing that makes them stand out, in this case, being prostitutes, and as such is not a problem. And it's not a problem because their actual female characters do have personalities, and are, as a whole, the less disturbing GTA characters. A prostitute doesn't get any more characterization than a cop, which is why it's not a problem that sex is her only trait. It's a problem, however, when this applies to actual characters, and this happens a lot in gaming. In Borderlands, for example, a game I absolutely love and have completed many times before anyone says anything, in one of their trailers, all the characters had some long subtitle about them, except Lilith, which was "Hot". Couldn't that be applied to Roland, for example? No, because he has other traits. Lilith is Hot. And note that Borderlands isn't nearly as bad as some other examples, and given the way you play there's really not a lot of room for characterization. But the little it is, that's what they do about Lilith.

And finally, there's not a problem with sexualizing a character for a moment. For example, in Thor the movie, you have Kat Dennings and Natalie Portman oogling for the main character. It wouldn't have been a stretch to have either of them doing something sexy to call his attention. Yet, it's Thor the one who gets a completely needless shirtless scene. It's not there to make him look badass to the male audience. It's there to make him sexual to the female audience. He's being sexualized there. But it's not a problem there, since the next moment he's beating up Frost Giants in a serious manner. He's a sexy character sexualized for one scene, but his character isn't affected at all by this. Or, if you want a female example, Sarah Connor does have a sex scene in Terminator 1, but this doesn't affect her as a character.

I don't know if I've explained myself correctly or not.

So you want women who reinforce gender stereotypes in games? That's progress to you? Women are shown in combat and stuff in games because that's pretty much what games are about. Combat. Its simply a way for the player to have the most interesting amount of agency in a given environment. Not everything has to be a judgement on your sexuality.
Yes, that's what I said. Absolutely. Keep it up.

Would Sarah Connor stand out a lot in Gears of War? No. Is she still very much a woman and feminine? Yes.

I'm obviously not asking Gears for deep characterization, and it's good that they at least tried to show badass women, but the "STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER!!!!!!" stereotype exists for a reason, and that is that most people have no idea how to do a strong female character without making a man and adding tits.
 
A character defined exclusively by their sexual characteristics, by itself, shouldn't be anything wrong. It's when most female characters in the industry are sexualized when it becomes a big problem. Their only trait is their sexuality. And, throughout history, that's how women have mostly been seen. As sexual objects. Why do you think half the insults directed towards female gamers are about sex? Because these bunch of idiots have grown up in an environment where that's THE quality of women. That ties back to the idea of "rape culture", which is this to the extreme. If women are about sex, and just about sex, why can't someone just take it if they want to?

And finally, there's not a problem with sexualizing a character for a moment. For example, in Thor the movie, you have Kat Dennings and Natalie Portman oogling for the main character. It wouldn't have been a stretch to have either of them doing something sexy to call his attention. Yet, it's Thor the one who gets a completely needless shirtless scene. It's not there to make him look badass to the male audience. It's there to make him sexual to the female audience. He's being sexualized there. But it's not a problem there, since the next moment he's beating up Frost Giants in a serious manner. He's a sexy character sexualized for one scene, but his character isn't affected at all by this. Or, if you want a female example, Sarah Connor does have a sex scene in Terminator 1, but this doesn't affect her as a character.

I don't know if I've explained myself correctly or not.
So you are basically making assumptions based on personal anecdotal analysis?

You have no problems making leaps of logic either.

"If women are about sex, and just about sex, why can't someone just take it if they want to?"

Why one would one lead to another? If women are about sex, maybe we should respect and treat them well since they provide us pleasure?(which fits well with the whole white Knight trope) I could make that leap of logic as well.

Yes, that's what I said. Absolutely. Keep it up.

Would Sarah Connor stand out a lot in Gears of War? No. Is she still very much a woman and feminine? Yes.

I'm obviously not asking Gears for deep characterization, and it's good that they at least tried to show badass women, but the "STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER!!!!!!" stereotype exists for a reason, and that is that most people have no idea how to do a strong female character without making a man and adding tits.
That you are expecting that high level of writing from Gears is pretty interesting. You do know that Gears 3 is written by Karen Traviss. Even women have trouble writing a female character that's up to your standard apparently. Even then what Gears 3 had was pretty interesting imo, since in previous Gears games Anya was a pretty feminine character, she was essentially forced to toughen up to deal with the locust threat. It's not about being manly, it's about dealing with the situation at hand.
 
Yes, that's what I said. Absolutely. Keep it up.

Would Sarah Connor stand out a lot in Gears of War? No. Is she still very much a woman and feminine? Yes.

I'm obviously not asking Gears for deep characterization, and it's good that they at least tried to show badass women, but the "STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER!!!!!!" stereotype exists for a reason, and that is that most people have no idea how to do a strong female character without making a man and adding tits.

I hear this constantly and its just so not true. Just like in speculative fiction there has been a huge backlash about the lack of homosexual characters, now it seems like every new sci-fi story that comes out features a homosexual main character. The same goes with video games. For a long time it was true that only men were the main characters and women were just eye candy, but now with this criticism there has been a huge influx of female characters that are not either 'fighting fucktoy' or 'dudebro with tits'. So many in fact I don't feel I should have to list them, but I will if you are completely ignorant to this trend.
 
I hear this constantly and its just so not true. Just like in speculative fiction there has been a huge backlash about the lack of homosexual characters, now it seems like every new sci-fi story that comes out features a homosexual main character. The same goes with video games. For a long time it was true that only men were the main characters and women were just eye candy, but now with this criticism there has been a huge influx of female characters that are not either 'fighting fucktoy' or 'dudebro with tits'. So many in fact I don't feel I should have to list them, but I will if you are completely ignorant to this trend.
Though I remember the gay love scene of Mass Effect 3 getting tons of negative votes on youtube (even though that part is 100% optional). Feels to me like the gaming community isn't ready for that yet.
 
You know, it's really fucking infuriating to see people dismissing like this real problems. "Women are extremely sexualized in games and the sexualization of the violence against them contributes to a rape culture". "LOL DOES THAT MEAN I'M A RAPIST FOR PLAYING TOMB RAIDER?????" "LOL YES YOU AREE LOLOLOLOL"

As Joker said, there's nothing wrong with sexy characters. Sexualized characters are the problem. Very few female characters have anything going for them outside of their looks or their gender. Because people create characters with personality and then create female characters to support them. They never question the gender of the former.

And give me a fucking break with the Tomb Raider defense of the ridiculous moaning. "SHE'S HURT SHE'S OBVIOUSLY GOTTA MOAN LIKE A PORNSTAR THAT'S NOT SEXIST LOL STRAWMAN". Cause, yeah, it's not like we have thousands of examples of similar characters (Nathan Drake and Solid Snake to mention a few) who go through similar crap and hey, guess how much attention is paid to their suffering and moaning. lolnone. Fuck, yesterday we had the Medal of Honor presentation when a dude was shot, almost drown, and literally three seconds later he's blowing up brown people for the good of America (and yes, I word it this way to mention another problem of gaming, but one that is not relevant to this topic and as such, unlike other people, I won't talk about this more). If that had happened to new Lara we'd have an entire chapter dedicated to her crying.

The problem is that we have very little strong female characters, and of the very few that are "badass", we get people like the gals from Gears of War who are literally just guys with tits. Because femininity isn't a good or desirable trait.

If you ask people about two strong female characters of any media, you'll probably get Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor. Ripley is a survivalist, Connor is a badass. And yet, their most recognizable traits? Ripley wants to protect Newt above all, like a mother. Connor wants to protect her son above all. They don't sacrifice their gender identity to be cool and strong and badass. And what happens when our industry takes an Ellen Ripley clone (Samus) and tries to give her a personality? A crying, whinning mess of a person with no authority or personality.

Kratos is strong and musclebound, but you know why he's not sexualized? He's ugly as all fuck. When he kills he doesn't flex in ways that showcase his muscles to us, he kills in ways that makes him look badass to you. When he's done we don't get long shots of him all covered in blood and sweat, we see his enemies slaughtered. If there's one female character that is in anything similar to him, you won't find her in a videogame. You'll find her in Kill Bill.

Please man, please.
 
Cause, yeah, it's not like we have thousands of examples of similar characters (Nathan Drake and Solid Snake to mention a few) who go through similar crap and hey, guess how much attention is paid to their suffering and moaning. lolnone.

This isn't really accurate. MGS3 has a whole mechanic around Snake dealing with his wounds. No, he doesn't moan, but there's plenty of focus there. Not to mention the torture scenes. Or how in MGS4 the last third involves Snake getting worse and worse for wear. The main protagonist's suffering is a huge part of MGS. As for Drake, the very beginning of UC2 is about Drake with a terrible wound having to get out of a busted train, then later being worse for wear as he stumbles out into the snow. Yeah, he still has the upper body strength of a gorilla, but by the same token, Lara in that video is still remarkably spry and powerful for all the battering she's taking.

There's still plenty of instances in which women are depicted as vulnerable and victimized, I just think you chose particularly bad examples. And I don't think this Tomb Raider video is particularly damning in this regard. Lara may be vulnerable, but she's not a victim. And by that same token, Drake is also portrayed as vulnerable, that's how the designers try to make you relate to the character.
 
okay guys, I have a different questions. What's wrong with gender identity?

This is really not video game related but the answer is it reinforces the social expectation that 'this is the way a man/woman SHOULD act/behave' and makes anyone who deviates from that norm look strange or undesirable
 
This is really not video game related but the answer is it reinforces the social expectation that 'this is the way a man/woman SHOULD act/behave' and makes anyone who deviates from that norm look strange or undesirable

Pretty much.
Being a woman doesn't mean that you have to be feminine, and being feminine doesn't mean that you have to be caring.
 
So you are basically making assumptions based on personal anecdotal analysis?

You have no problems making leaps of logic either.

"If women are about sex, and just about sex, why can't someone just take it if they want to?"

Why one would one lead to another? If women are about sex, maybe we should respect and treat them well since they provide us pleasure?(which fits well with the whole white Knight trope) I could make that leap of logic as well.
Maybe we should. Maybe there are people who don't. Maybe that's why the majority of rapists don't think they're doing anything wrong, or don't even know it's rape. Maybe.

That you are expecting that high level of writing from Gears is pretty interesting. You do know that Gears 3 is written by Karen Traviss. Even women have trouble writing a female character that's up to your standard apparently. Even then what Gears 3 had was pretty interesting imo, since in previous Gears games Anya was a pretty feminine character, she was essentially forced to toughen up to deal with the locust threat. It's not about being manly, it's about dealing with the situation at hand.
Women can be bad writers too. Especially Karen Traviss.

So many in fact I don't feel I should have to list them, but I will if you are completely ignorant to this trend.
Please. I'll list Jade and Faith already. And Shepard. I'll be generous and list Lightning too.

This isn't really accurate. MGS3 has a whole mechanic around Snake dealing with his wounds. No, he doesn't moan, but there's plenty of focus there. Not to mention the torture scenes. Or how in MGS4 the last third involves Snake getting worse and worse for wear. The main protagonist's suffering is a huge part of MGS. As for Drake, the very beginning of UC2 is about Drake with a terrible wound having to get out of a busted train, then later being worse for wear as he stumbles out into the snow. Yeah, he still has the upper body strength of a gorilla, but by the same token, Lara in that video is still remarkably spry and powerful for all the battering she's taking.

There's still plenty of instances in which women are depicted as vulnerable and victimized, I just think you chose particularly bad examples. And I don't think this Tomb Raider video is particularly damning in this regard. Lara may be vulnerable, but she's not a victim. And by that same token, Drake is also portrayed as vulnerable, that's how the designers try to make you relate to the character.
Good points all, perhaps I should've used another example. You will have to admit what the constant moaning makes people think about (this can't be argued, just based on what everyone says on the forum), and that there wasn't quite the focus of how desperate and helpless they are compared to Lara.

But it's true, could've used better examples. Didn't sleep a lot, you'll have to bear with me.
 
This is really not video game related but the answer is it reinforces the social expectation that 'this is the way a man/woman SHOULD act/behave' and makes anyone who deviates from that norm look strange or undesirable

Fiction is fictional. If anyone derives expectations of reality from a work of fiction, they have their own problems.
 
Please. I'll list Jade and Faith already. And Shepard. I'll be generous and list Lightning too.

Oh bother, only from stuff I've played recently...

Leah (could add the awesome female DH character too) - Diablo 3
Alyx & Chel - Half Life/Portal series
Trip - Enslaved
Ashley Williams - Mass Effect series
Bonnie MacFarlane - Red Dead Redemption
Mako - SWTOR
Veronica Santangelo - Fallout: New Vegas

New stuff from E3 i've seen so far:
Jodie Holmes - Beyond: Two Souls
Ellie - Last of Us
Aveline - Assassin's Creed 3: Liberation
 
Men arent as sexualized as women in games. Until you get male playable characters with dick physics and visible huge bulges in their pants, and women constantly talking about raping men (just look at Arkham City and how it portrayed npc's talking about Catwoman) there is no comparison.

Because that's exactly what women want to see, right?
 
Are videogame males considered to be deep in comparison?

Exactly
Some dude should make a parody of her video but with males characters.

Male character except for a few exceptions always fall into one of these stereotypes(add or remove as you see fit).

Naive hero who is secretly a badass on his adventure of self discovery

Gruff marine with little to no personality, he just does what hes told.

Silent get shit done guy, similar to the marine cept he has even less of a personality as he pretty much never speaks

Angry guy out for revenge or something

Action Superhero who can do no wrong

Batman
 
I think I have a very different idea of "strong female character" than most people.

Exactly
Some dude should make a parody of her video but with males characters.

Male character except for a few exceptions always fall into one of these stereotypes(add or remove as you see fit).

Naive hero who is secretly a badass on his adventure of self discovery

Gruff marine with little to no personality, he just does what hes told.

Silent get shit done guy, similar to the marine cept he has even less of a personality as he pretty much never speaks

Angry guy out for revenge or something

Action Superhero who can do no wrong

Batman

Well, I think the difference is that the male characters are often characters that male players think are cool and would want to be.

Female characters generally are not at all what you would want to be.
 
When women start playing more games and demand a larger portion of dev and publisher attention, we will begin to see more well-realized female characters.

Maybe. Men already command the lion's share, and men are often as misrepresented in gaming as women are. So it's a crapshoot. This beloved medium of ours' is naturally inclined towards brainless entertainment, sad but true. There are exceptions to every rule, but generally devs don't need you to think about the game you're playing too much.
 
maybe if you happen to be a 12 year old i guess. Otherwise I have no desire to be anyone like Marcus Fenix or Agent 47

I get the sense that a lot of gamers are... "younger" males.
I get the sense that a lot of gamers want to be Batman or Cole or Kratos or a soldier or whatever. Or at the very least find these to be cool characters that you would like to play as. Don't the majority of boys think it's ideal to be big and strong and powerful?

I could be wrong.
 
I get the sense that a lot of gamers are... "younger" males.
I get the sense that a lot of gamers want to be Batman or Cole or Kratos or a soldier or whatever. Or at the very least find these to be cool characters that you would like to play as. Don't the majority of boys think it's ideal to be big and strong and powerful?

I could be wrong.

not true.

Everyone wants to be batman though.
 
I think it's funny that in games where we eviscerate thousands of people with high powered weapons, we are expecting a realistic portrayal of women.

Just like in other media, games with dumb concepts will have dumb characters, but for the most part, more mature games are pretty good at portraying characters, both male and female.

Like many people have said, games just need to grow up and mature to the point where genres and stories are more diverse so we have better and more interesting characters. Then after a few years, they will become tired and wrote, and "reality gaming" will take over, and finally, just before the apocalypse, we will have Jersey Shore: The Game.
 
Dragon Age II has the single most believable, fleshed-out female character in gaming in Aveline Vallen.

tumblr_m3nu4ejpQU1qmo44oo7_500.jpg


Despite the game's numerous faults, it's characterization was spot-on.
 
I get the sense that a lot of gamers are... "younger" males.
I get the sense that a lot of gamers want to be Batman or Cole or Kratos or a soldier or whatever. Or at the very least find these to be cool characters that you would like to play as. Don't the majority of boys think it's ideal to be big and strong and powerful?

I could be wrong.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp
^Read that line then come back.

Characters like Marcus Fenix are dare i say shallow as fuck....they have little to no personality or character.
There are very few male leads that make me think oww hell yeah im cool.
Apart from games that let me create my own character cuz im that cool.

But on a serious not, this chick is taking it far, male leads are just as shallow as female leads, cept male players dont lose their shit going on about why all the male characters are white, or have buzz cuts, or have unnaturally perfect physiques.

Shut up and enjoy the game.
 
Dragon Age II has the single most believable, fleshed-out female character in gaming in Aveline Vallen.
tumblr_m3nu4ejpQU1qmo44oo7_500.jpg

Despite the game's numerous faults, it's characterization was spot-on.
Somewhat agree....while Mira was never really fleshed out, she is one of if not the most impressive female character ive seen in recent history.
Surprising especially considering the universe she is from
bRZtc.jpg
 
http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp
^Read that line then come back.

Characters like Marcus Fenix are dare i say shallow as fuck....they have little to no personality or character.
There are very few male leads that make me think oww hell yeah im cool.
Apart from games that let me create my own character cuz im that cool.

But on a serious not, this chick is taking it far, male leads are just as shallow as female leads, cept male players dont lose their shit going on about why all the male characters are white, or have buzz cuts, or have unnaturally perfect physiques.

Shut up and enjoy the game.

I guess I have to be more clear. I hope I don't get in trouble for this...

I put "younger" in quotes because I wasn't referring to physical age. I was talking more about the "mental age". I really didn't want to be offensive, but there you go.

Shallow male leads aren't as offensive as the female characters are. The shallow male leads are big strong men who are incredibly capable. They are created to appeal to men. The shallow female characters are "eye candy". They are created to appeal to... men.


This needs to change if gaming is ever to be more than a "boy's club". Very few girls look at this industry and want any part of it. It's disgustingly testosterone filled and directed so heavily towards boys that it actively pushes girls away.

You can be comfortable with that because you're not the one being left out. As a girl (ugh, I hate bringing this up), I can't help but feel alienated by the constant pandering towards men in this industry.
Is it really so bad that some of us want this industry to be a more comfortable place for us? It's not fun to be an outcast in your own hobby/community of choice.
 
I guess I have to be more clear. I hope I don't get in trouble for this...

I put "younger" in quotes because I wasn't referring to physical age. I was talking more about the "mental age". I really didn't want to be offensive, but there you go.

Shallow male leads aren't as offensive as the female characters are. The shallow male leads are big strong men who are incredibly capable. They are created to appeal to men. The shallow female characters are "eye candy". They are created to appeal to... men.


This needs to change if gaming is ever to be more than a "boy's club". Very few girls look at this industry and want any part of it. It's disgustingly testosterone filled and directed so heavily towards boys that it actively pushes girls away.

You can be comfortable with that because you're not the one being left out. As a girl (ugh, I hate bringing this up), I can't help but feel alienated by the constant pandering towards men in this industry.
Is it really so bad that some of us want this industry to be a more comfortable place for us? It's not fun to be an outcast in your own hobby/community of choice.

Female gamers are not really something you can reliably focus test against (what can you say that all or most female gamers like?) therefore the video game development community (the lowest common denominator of that community) has no idea how to appeal to female gamers. The only thing they know is sex and violence are still selling pretty well so they will keep doing what works until the market says otherwise
 
Female gamers are not really something you can reliably focus test against (what can you say that all or most female gamers like?) therefore the video game development community (the lowest common denominator of that community) has no idea how to appeal to female gamers. The only thing they know is sex and violence are still selling pretty well so they will keep doing what works until the market says otherwise

Well then the industry is dumb as fuck because last I checked the videogame industry wasn't built on sex and violence, that's a much more recent trend.
 
Men arent as sexualized as women in games. Until you get male playable characters with dick physics and visible huge bulges in their pants, and women constantly talking about raping men (just look at Arkham City and how it portrayed npc's talking about Catwoman) there is no comparison.

requesting a patent as we speak
 
Well then the industry is dumb as fuck because last I checked the videogame industry wasn't built on sex and violence, that's a much more recent trend.

Sex...maybe not, but violence has been a defining aspect of games since day one.
 
Sex...maybe not, but violence has been a defining aspect of games since day one.

Mario was built on violence? Zelda? Pacman? Dk? Sonic? Frogger? Tetris? I could go on and on, but the violence aspect didn't begin becoming widespread until the ps1.

Shallow male leads aren't as offensive as the female characters are. The shallow male leads are big strong men who are incredibly capable. They are created to appeal to men. The shallow female characters are "eye candy". They are created to appeal to... men.

I agree witht the second part but not with the first. They may be strong and capable, but that doesn't stop them from being shallow and dumb as fuck people that I would not want to be barring a few exceptions. If that were so then someone like rachel from ninja gaiden should be given a pass for her ridiculous getup simply because she's incredibly strong and very capable.
 
Wow PS1 is your idea of recent?

And yes there was blowing shit up and shooten games way back in the NES days

One of the first games ever had you shoot asteroids to blow them up ffs
 
Wow PS1 is your idea of recent?

And yes there was blowing shit up and shooten games way back in the NES days

One of the first games ever had you shoot asteroids to blow them up ffs

How did I know you would use such arbitrary 'violence' like that. The violence that most people talk about isnt blowing up fucking asteroids. It's shit like Halo, Mortal Kombat, Golden Eye, etc. If going by your logic then literally everything is violent, not just in videogames, but in general. Tetris is violent because when you line up your blocks they explode. Quit being obtuse.

And you said violence is what games were based on, thus alleging that games were built on it from the beginning, which is factually untrue.
 
We're really still on "Bu bu bu male characters are just as dumb and exaggerated"? Reposting myself:

If you really care so much about men being depicted unrealistically and as dumb buffoons in the media, SPEAK UP YOUR DAMN SELF. Nobody's stopping you! Write blog posts, make videos, get active! I'm not being glib about this, I'm sincerely saying, if that's what you think is worth fighting for, you should honestly do it. And contrary to what you may assume, you may find that the feminist community are your allies in your cause. They don't like to reinforce negative stereotypes of anyone. Many if not most of them are in fact keenly aware of the ways gender and racial and class and educational issues interact and know that they can't be separated that easily.

But I almost never see posters doing that. I've never seen a "Why are male video game characters so objectified?" thread or a "Why does this industry have such a problem with minorities?" thread. Instead certain posters think the most appropriate place to begin those discussions is in the threads that try to discuss the equivalent female phenomenon.

I can't help but wonder how much they really care about their own interests and male representations given that.
 
I can't help but wonder how much they really care about their own interests and male representations given that.

maybe I wanna play a unrealistic male or female character?

like women read Twilight and stuff not for the realism but for the fantastic stories and characters.
 
I guess I have to be more clear. I hope I don't get in trouble for this...

I put "younger" in quotes because I wasn't referring to physical age. I was talking more about the "mental age". I really didn't want to be offensive, but there you go.

The things you seem to be describing are typical male power fantasies. Being brave, powerful and competent, bringing your enemies down through strength and guile... men look up to other men who embody these traits. In media, we typically gravitate toward male protagonists in the same vein. As we get older, we become more capable of appreciating deeper and more nuanced characters, but those archetypal traits still resonate on some level. I don't think responding to that bespeaks some lack of maturity.

When people make statements like this, whether or not they realize it, they seem to be implying that masculinity itself is bad. That the desire for competence and mastery, the drive to excel, to surpass one's competitors and dominate one's foes, betoken a lack of maturity. Men should be ashamed of this part of themselves, the argument goes. Responding to depictions of such fundamental elements of masculinity is childish, something to be abandoned as they grow older. I have a problem with this. I'd say that maturity is about showing restraint and judgment in dealing with others, about sublimating these masculine urges in constructive (or at least not destructive) ways, rather than excising them from the male psyche.


You can be comfortable with that because you're not the one being left out. As a girl (ugh, I hate bringing this up), I can't help but feel alienated by the constant pandering towards men in this industry.
Is it really so bad that some of us want this industry to be a more comfortable place for us? It's not fun to be an outcast in your own hobby/community of choice.

I have no trouble with the idea of gaming being made more friendly to women, from both the industry and content standpoint. What I take issue with is that these need to be sweeping changes that affect all games, because some of the changes that would make games more appealing to you would make them less appealing to me.

In an ideal world, we'd have games that skew to 'male' tastes, games that skew to 'female' tastes, and there'd be a degree of overlap between the two - like the movie industry. I'll be the first to admit that the current balance is pretty lopsided, and that can certainly afford to change. But as I said earlier in the thread, I don't think the answer here is to lay a guilt trip on men for enjoying things that skew to masculine tastes, and nuking anything that smacks of that from orbit for the sake of gaming's future.
 
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