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[Dude Abides]

How did I know you would use such arbitrary 'violence' like that. The violence that most people talk about isnt blowing up fucking asteroids. It's shit like Halo, Mortal Kombat, Golden Eye, etc. If going by your logic then literally everything is violent, not just in videogames, but in general. Tetris is violent because when you line up your blocks they explode. Quit being obtuse.

And you said violence is what games were based on, thus alleging that games were built on it from the beginning, which is factually untrue.

Space Invaders is violent in the sense you are describing. The very first arcade game was based on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacewar!

 

[Onemic]

But I almost never see posters doing that. I've never seen a "Why are male video game characters so objectified?" thread or a "Why does this industry have such a problem with minorities?" thread. Instead certain posters think the most appropriate place to begin those discussions is in the threads that try to discuss the equivalent female phenomenon.

I can't help but wonder how much they really care about their own interests and male representations given that.

There have been more than once. They have never ended well.

Space Invaders is violent in the sense you are describing. The very first arcade game was based on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacewar!

I wouldn't put space invaders even close to the level of golden eye, which is pretty tame compared to the violence we have in games now. My whole point is that if you include games like that to be 'violent' in the same sense that gears of war is violent then pretty much almost every game ever created is violent. Pretty much my point is that sure they are 'violent' in the most arbitrary sense, but I don't believe that type of 'violence' is something that would only appeal to males.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

The things you seem to be describing are typical male power fantasies. Being brave, powerful and competent, bringing your enemies down through strength and guile... men look up to other men who embody these traits. In media, we typically gravitate toward male protagonists in the same vein. As we get older, we become more capable of appreciating deeper and more nuanced characters, but those archetypal traits still resonate on some level. I don't think responding to that bespeaks some lack of maturity.

When people make statements like this, whether or not they realize it, they seem to be implying that masculinity itself is bad. That the desire for competence and mastery, the drive to excel, to surpass one's competitors and dominate one's foes, betoken a lack of maturity. Men should be ashamed of this part of themselves, the argument goes. Responding to depictions of such fundamental elements of masculinity is childish, something to be abandoned as they grow older. I have a problem with this. I'd say that maturity is about showing restraint and judgment in dealing with others, about sublimating these masculine urges in constructive (or at least not destructive) ways, rather than excising them from the male psyche.




I have no trouble with the idea of gaming being made more friendly to women, from both the industry and content standpoint. What I take issue with is that these need to be sweeping changes that affect all games, because some of the changes that would make games more appealing to you would make them less appealing to me.

In an ideal world, we'd have games that skew to 'male' tastes, games that skew to 'female' tastes, and there'd be a degree of overlap between the two - like the movie industry. I'll be the first to admit that the current balance is pretty lopsided, and that can certainly afford to change. But as I said earlier in the thread, I don't think the answer here is to lay a guilt trip on men for enjoying things that skew to masculine tastes, and nuking anything that smacks of that from orbit for the sake of gaming's future.

Well said, it's worth noting that this is the typical line with ANYTHING in pop culture from feminists; "If it is offensive to me it is universally bad and you should feel bad for being complicit to rape culture"

This kind of judgement, while it should not be dismissed out of hand must be taken in a subjective and more nuanced approach than this.

 

[frequency]

The things you seem to be describing are typical male power fantasies. Being brave, powerful and competent, bringing your enemies down through strength and guile... men look up to other men who embody these traits. In media, we typically gravitate toward male protagonists in the same vein. As we get older, we become more capable of appreciating deeper and more nuanced characters, but those archetypal traits still resonate on some level. I don't think responding to that bespeaks some lack of maturity.

When people make statements like this, whether or not they realize it, they seem to be implying that masculinity itself is bad. That the desire for competence and mastery, the drive to excel, to surpass one's competitors and dominate one's foes, betoken a lack of maturity. Men should be ashamed of this part of themselves, the argument goes. Responding to depictions of such fundamental elements of masculinity is childish, something to be abandoned as they grow older. I have a problem with this. I'd say that maturity is about showing restraint and judgment in dealing with others, about sublimating these masculine urges in constructive (or at least not destructive) ways, rather than excising them from the male psyche.

I am truly sorry for the offense. I really didn't want to say it but I'm dumb.
It was kind of in response to a post saying only a 12 year old would look up to those kinds of characters. But that's no excuse. I should have kept to my initial reservations and should not have said it. I'm sorry.

I have no trouble with the idea of gaming being made more friendly to women, from both the industry and content standpoint. What I take issue with is that these need to be sweeping changes that affect all games, because some of the changes that would make games more appealing to you would make them less appealing to me.

In an ideal world, we'd have games that skew to 'male' tastes, games that skew to 'female' tastes, and there'd be a degree of overlap between the two - like the movie industry. I'll be the first to admit that the current balance is pretty lopsided, and that can certainly afford to change. But as I said earlier in the thread, I don't think the answer here is to lay a guilt trip on men for enjoying things that skew to masculine tastes, and nuking anything that smacks of that from orbit for the sake of gaming's future.

I don't even need games to skew to a female taste. There actually exist games like that for me. I would just like the sexuality to be toned down. For example, do we really need Far Cry 3 with first person humping and bare breasts as the opener in a large trade show where the entire gaming (and even mainstream) community is paying attention?

There doesn't need to be sweeping changes.

I'm not so selfish that I want games to appeal to me (and only me) and not you. I just ask that the industry really consider what they're doing and maybe just hold back on some things. Do you really play games for objectification of women? Again, with Far Cry 3, is that game no longer appealing to you if the specific scene wasn't there?

Uncharted is a universally acclaimed series and the gaming community loves it. It doesn't disrespect women. Is Uncharted unappealing to you because women aren't objectified?

I'm not asking developers to put frilly dresses and flowers and rainbows in their games. I'm asking them to stop alienating the female demographic with stuff like that Far Cry 3 scene, scantily clad nun assassins, and pole dancing hostesses.
I would even be happy if they just stop putting that stuff in trailers and conferences if removing it makes the game no longer appealing to male gamers.

Any progress is good. As it currently is, I'm not comfortable telling people my gender and I'm often too embarrassed to say I'm a gamer. Not because gaming is "geeky". But because the popular portrayal of women in games is so disgusting.

I'm not a feminist. I don't want the current gaming community to be destroyed and for it to be built around girls. I just want to feel comfortable and not discriminated against in my hobby of choice. Is that really too much of a sacrifice for the male demographic? Is there truly no compromise?

 

[ElectricBlue187]

While some of the over the top sexulization in say, Bayonetta or Lollpop Chainsaw, would not upset me much if it just kinda disappeared I think it would be kind of a tragedy if game developers had to 'tone down' their ideas so that it's not offensive to any particular group (anymore than they already do, that is)

 

[Onemic]

While some of the over the top sexulization in say, Bayonetta or Lollpop Chainsaw, would not upset me much if it just kinda disappeared I think it would be kind of a tragedy if game developers had to 'tone down' their ideas so that it's not offensive to any particular group (anymore than they already do, that is)

What ideas are you talking about, or do you have any examples of where this might negatively compromise developers ideas? Having stripper assassin nuns in a Hitman trailer isn't a great idea to begin with.

 

[rohlfinator]

Well said, it's worth noting that this is the typical line with ANYTHING in pop culture from feminists; "If it is offensive to me it is universally bad and you should feel bad for being complicit to rape culture"

I don't think anyone in this thread or the video is making this argument, at all.

What ideas are you talking about, or do you have any examples of where this might negatively compromise developers ideas? Having stripper assassin nuns in a Hitman trailer isn't a great idea to begin with.

Agreed... I'm all for freedom of creativity, but a lot of this stuff is obviously just there because T&A sells (or at least publishers/marketing groups assume it does).

Though I suspect that most of these tropes are mostly a symptom of the development community skewing predominantly male. A lot of this won't go away until there's a much higher proportion of women in creative roles in the industry.

 

[charlequin]

While some of the over the top sexulization in say, Bayonetta or Lollpop Chainsaw, would not upset me much if it just kinda disappeared I think it would be kind of a tragedy if game developers had to 'tone down' their ideas so that it's not offensive to any particular group (anymore than they already do, that is)

Well, I mean, a big part of the reason the emphasis here is on "tropes" is that a lot of these things aren't just problematic from a gender perspective, they're also bad writing. If you have to motivate a male character by killing his girlfriend, it means you didn't construct a strong enough motivation for him in the first place. When a female character exists only to be sexual decoration, that's one more character in the game who's a wasted opportunity to have someone well-written.

Just in general, I am a strong proponent of the idea that people who write about the same topics they would otherwise, but do so with a strong knowledge of the gender, race, class, nationality, sexuality, culture, etc. tropes that writers use to shortcut the hard work of writing realistic and deep characters, will just produce better work and characters who are more appealing to men and women alike.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I am truly sorry for the offense. I really didn't want to say it but I'm dumb.
It was kind of in response to a post saying only a 12 year old would look up to those kinds of characters. But that's no excuse. I should have kept to my initial reservations and should not have said it. I'm sorry.


I don't even need games to skew to a female taste. There actually exist games like that for me. I would just like the sexuality to be toned down. For example, do we really need Far Cry 3 with first person humping and bare breasts as the opener in a large trade show where the entire gaming (and even mainstream) community is paying attention?

There doesn't need to be sweeping changes.

I'm not so selfish that I want games to appeal to me (and only me) and not you. I just ask that the industry really consider what they're doing and maybe just hold back on some things. Do you really play games for objectification of women? Again, with Far Cry 3, is that game no longer appealing to you if the specific scene wasn't there?

Uncharted is a universally acclaimed series and the gaming community loves it. It doesn't disrespect women. Is Uncharted unappealing to you because women aren't objectified?

I'm not asking developers to put frilly dresses and flowers and rainbows in their games. I'm asking them to stop alienating the female demographic with stuff like that Far Cry 3 scene, scantily clad nun assassins, and pole dancing hostesses.
I would even be happy if they just stop putting that stuff in trailers and conferences if removing it makes the game no longer appealing to male gamers.

Any progress is good. As it currently is, I'm not comfortable telling people my gender and I'm often too embarrassed to say I'm a gamer. Not because gaming is "geeky". But because the popular portrayal of women in games is so disgusting.

I'm not a feminist. I don't want the current gaming community to be destroyed and for it to be built around girls. I just want to feel comfortable and not discriminated against in my hobby of choice. Is that really too much of a sacrifice for the male demographic? Is there truly no compromise?

I think you're missing the point. Some of it is the expectation by the game devs themselves. They see dudebro COD selling and they try to think if something like that sells how can they be different but still cash in on that seemingly huge market. I doubt anyone would hate farcry 3 if that wasn't there but that was a decision by the game dev to get attention and was in no way a clamoring by the male gaming audience as a whole. I actually lost a lot of respect for farcry 3 and my level of interest dropped a lot from that. Stuff like that doesn't appeal to a lot of us, especially when it's completely unnecessary and pointless as it was in the farcry 3 trailer.

And the whole thing of majority being underdeveloped males is pretty insulting and unnecessary and things like that are why people stop caring (at least partially), it's hard to care about a point of view when you're essentially saying you consider them undeveloped manbabies...

Well, I mean, a big part of the reason the emphasis here is on "tropes" is that a lot of these things aren't just problematic from a gender perspective, they're also bad writing. If you have to motivate a male character by killing his girlfriend, it means you didn't construct a strong enough motivation for him in the first place. When a female character exists only to be sexual decoration, that's one more character in the game who's a wasted opportunity to have someone well-written.

Just in general, I am a strong proponent of the idea that people who write about the same topics they would otherwise, but do so with a strong knowledge of the gender, race, class, nationality, sexuality, culture, etc. tropes that writers use to shortcut the hard work of writing realistic and deep characters, will just produce better work and characters who are more appealing to men and women alike.

Pretty much and I hope a good deal is from just bad writing and if more effort was put in it would go a long way to fix things. Sadly it seems like much of the writing in video games is just awful.

 

[frequency]

I think you're missing the point. Some of it is the expectation by the game devs themselves. They see dudebro COD selling and they try to think if something like that sells how can they be different but still cash in on that seemingly huge market. I doubt anyone would hate farcry 3 if that wasn't there but that was a decision by the game dev to get attention and was in no way a clamoring by the male gaming audience as a whole. I actually lost a lot of respect for farcry 3 and my level of interest dropped a lot from that. Stuff like that doesn't appeal to a lot of us, especially when it's completely unnecessary and pointless as it was in the farcry 3 trailer.

And the whole thing of majority being underdeveloped males is pretty insulting and unnecessary and things like that are why people stop caring (at least partially), it's hard to care about a point of view when you're essentially saying you consider them undeveloped manbabies...

Sorry, but it's hard when "OMG BOOBZ UBISOFT WINZZZZZ E3!!!!" is spammed everywhere when it was shown. I'm not saying that applies to everyone. But it was certainly a large enough group to drown out all the other voices.
(I know what I said was offensive and degrading to male gamers. Which is why I was hesitant to say it. But well... just to push it a little further at the risk of getting in trouble: being degraded is something female gamers have to put up with all the time).

The developers cater to the audience. They want sales. Well, no matter how much it's denied, we can see what sells. Sex sells. The type of male leads in the original post I quoted sell. I don't understand the male mind, but if a male poster tells me "only 12 year olds like those characters", then what am I supposed to think? I concluded that if only 12 year olds like those tropes, but those tropes sell games and the majority of gamers are over 30... then... well...

I'm not saying every gamer is like that. You're obviously not like that. Far Cry 3's antics put you off. You're not at all who I'm talking about.

So my problem is mainly with the developers/marketers. They need to actively work to change the way women are depicted. We see with Uncharted that it's possible to be successful without resorting to such things. Or if that's too much of a change, like some posters have said, then at least don't put that at the forefront of gaming. It's embarrassingly juvenile and offensive.

EDIT: Sorry. I know I'm being way too aggressive with my post but... It's a very frustrating topic. I'll leave the thread if it's getting to be too annoying/offensive/confrontational.

 

[Platy]

Harassment, Misogyny and Silencing on YouTube

Here is a very small sample of the harassment I deal with for daring to criticize sexism in video games. Keep in mind that all this is in response to my Kickstarter project for a video series called Tropes vs. Women in Video Games (which I have not even made yet). These are the types of silencing tactics often used against women on the internet who dare to speak up. But don’t worry it won’t stop me!

[MAJOR TRIGGER WARNING]

Yeah, I know ... you tube comments and whatever .... but there are LOTS of comments that use the SAME arguments most gaffers used in this and the rape culture thread (please note the trigger part)

 

[truly101]

I wouldn't put space invaders even close to the level of golden eye, which is pretty tame compared to the violence we have in games now. My whole point is that if you include games like that to be 'violent' in the same sense that gears of war is violent then pretty much almost every game ever created is violent. Pretty much my point is that sure they are 'violent' in the most arbitrary sense, but I don't believe that type of 'violence' is something that would only appeal to males.

Violence is violence, and while there are varying degrees of violence, its still a defining characteristic of video games and always has been. The use of some sort of physical force to resolve conflict is violence and its disingenuous to try to pardon some of it because it doesn't meet whatever superfluous criteria you are trying to apply to it.
Keep in mind that violence in video games is used to get attention and its one of the easiest ways to outdo your competition. Mortal Kombat doesn't become MK without NARC, the bloody profiles in SF 1 and 2 and the digitized violence of Pit Fighter. You have to consider all of it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

It seems to me that a lot of people oppose this because it's targeting their culture. :v

But srsly, it's fine to disagree with this, but the number of people coming out and flat-out declaring her wrong on the matter is ridiculous - and the people trying to offer male stereotypes as a counter are ridiculous as well. Male stereotypes are not stereotypes that most male gamers are ashamed of. Nathan Drake is studly, masculine, intelligent, and witty. Batman is brave, powerful, and intelligent. Marcus Fenix is dumb, but hyper-capable. The male protagonists are often people that the player wants to be, while female protagonist is often poorly designed and not a character people desire to be.

 

[UrbanRats]

It seems to me that a lot of people oppose this because it's targeting their culture. :v

But srsly, it's fine to disagree with this, but the number of people coming out and flat-out declaring her wrong on the matter is ridiculous - and the people trying to offer male stereotypes as a counter are ridiculous as well. Male stereotypes are not stereotypes that most male gamers are ashamed of. Nathan Drake is studly, masculine, intelligent, and witty. Batman is brave, powerful, and intelligent. Marcus Fenix is dumb, but hyper-capable. The male protagonists are often people that the player wants to be, while female protagonist is often poorly designed and not a character people desire to be.

Two wrongs don't make a right, that's why bringing up male stereotypes is a weak argument, i completely disagree with your argument, though.
The characters you bring up are absolutely ridiculous.
If you think Marcus Fenix is not an offensive, idiotic representation of a male, uhm i can't agree with that.

Yeah Batman is intelligent, powerful and a hot muscular man in a tight suit.
Catwoman is a sexy, powerful, and witty woman in latex suit.
Both are potentially offensive characters with a juvenile design, they are both directed at males, but that doesn't really change the fact that both are appealing to the same (superficial) layer of complexity.
Girls directed media also has stupid stereotypes (for both male and female characters), that's why i think the solution to this, simply is:
Accept that some products are stupider than others and try to broaden the offer (both in stupid and intelligent deep products) to include things also directed at women/girls.

Nothing is better than freedom of expression to balance out this problem, but given the origin of this media, it's gonna need just a little push.

 

[DragonGirl]

Just thought I'd toss this out there:

As some of you may be aware, this project has recently been subject to a coordinated online harassment effort waged by various online video game forums vowing to “take me down”. I always expect a certain level of harassment when discussing gender issues online. This time however, it’s a more organized and sustained effort than I’ve experienced before.

The intimidation and harassment effort has included a torrent of misogyny and hate speech on my YouTube video, repeated vandalizing of the Wikipedia page about me, organized efforts to flag my YouTube videos as “terrorism”, as well as many threatening messages sent through Twitter, Facebook, Kickstarter, email and my own website. These messages and comments have included everything from the typical sandwich and kitchen “jokes” to threats of violence, death, sexual assault and rape. All that plus an organized attempt to report this project to Kickstarter and get it banned or defunded. Thankfully, Kickstarter has been incredibly supportive in helping me deal with the harassment on their service.

Apparently the absolute dregs of the anxious masculinity gamer crowd are doing their best to embarrass the gaming community (once again) by coordinating attacks against this project. You know what would be awesome? If the non-irredeemable asshole gamers dropped her some verbal support either at her website or youtube videos.

 

[kittens]

While some of the over the top sexulization in say, Bayonetta or Lollpop Chainsaw, would not upset me much if it just kinda disappeared I think it would be kind of a tragedy if game developers had to 'tone down' their ideas so that it's not offensive to any particular group (anymore than they already do, that is)

Yeah, way to support the rights of developers to be misogynistic / sexist / patriarchal. That cause certainly needs to be championed.

It's not about being offensive, it's about not being harmful.

 

[fushi]

Harassment, Misogyny and Silencing on YouTube

Reading that convinced me to donate. Fucking embarrassing.

 

[Emitan]

Just thought I'd toss this out there:



Apparently the absolute dregs of the anxious masculinity gamer crowd are doing their best to embarrass the gaming community (once again) by coordinating attacks against this project. You know what would be awesome? If the non-irredeemable asshole gamers dropped her some verbal support either at her website or youtube videos.

I'm sure many GAFers will tell her to toughen up or ignore it :/

 

[Tellaerin]

Just thought I'd toss this out there:



Apparently the absolute dregs of the anxious masculinity gamer crowd are doing their best to embarrass the gaming community (once again) by coordinating attacks against this project. You know what would be awesome? If the non-irredeemable asshole gamers dropped her some verbal support either at her website or youtube videos.

I'm not particularly a fan of this project (see my comments above), and this isn't a Kickstarter I intend to support, but some of those Youtube comments you linked to are pretty damn shameful. Way to reinforce insecure, sexist male gamer stereotypes there, dickheads.

 

[Mumei]

As Joker said, there's nothing wrong with sexy characters. Sexualized characters are the problem. Very few female characters have anything going for them outside of their looks or their gender. Because people create characters with personality and then create female characters to support them. They never question the gender of the former.

I like the APA definition of "sexualization" to try to differentiate "a character who happens to be sexy" and a character that is sexualized:

• a person’s value comes only from his or her sexual appeal or sexual behavior, to the exclusion of other characteristics;
• a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy;
• a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or
• sexuality is inappropriately imposed upon a person.

There is also a bit at the link on the effects of sexualization - cognitive and emotional consequences, effects on mental and physical health and sexuality, effects on attitudes and beliefs about feminity and sexuality, and the effects it can have on boys, men, and adult women.

And on the subject of sexual objectification, I saw something interesting a few weeks ago:

PROBLEM: Women's bare bodies are on display in billboards, movie posters, and many other kinds of ads. Though plenty of studies have looked at the ramifications of this pervasive sexual objectification, it's unclear if we see near-naked people as human beings or if we really do view them as mere objects.

METHODOLOGY: Researchers led by Philippe Bernard presented participants pictures of men and women in sexualized poses, wearing a swimsuit or underwear, one by one on a computer screen. Since pictures of people present a recognition problem when they're turned upside down, but images of objects don't have that problem, some of the photos were presented right side up and others upside down. After each picture, there was a second of black screen before each participant was shown two images and was asked to choose the one that matched the one he or she had just seen.

RESULTS: The male and female subjects matched the photos similarly. They recognized right-side-up men better than upside-down men, suggesting that they saw the sexualized men as persons. On the contrary, the women in underwear weren't any harder to recognize when they appeared upside down, indicating that the sexy women were consistently identified as objects.

CONCLUSION: People objectify women in sexualized photos, but not men.​

I think it at least raises some questions about the way people subconsciously view men and women and why it is that even when sexualized men continued to be seen as people (and thus it mattered when they were viewed in a different state) and why women were made into objects in the minds of the participants.

I'm not particularly a fan of this project (see my comments above), and this isn't a Kickstarter I intend to support, but some of those Youtube comments you linked to are pretty damn shameful. Way to reinforce insecure, sexist male gamer stereotypes there, dickheads.

I think that those people are evidence of precisely the problems she's talking about.

I do not buy this notion that the communication is one-way: the male customer base wants sexy women, so they get sexy women, and the male customer base remains pure and unaffected by the messages being conveyed about women. They do not remain unaffected, and I don't think that women remain unaffected either - hence women and men having the exact same problems with objectifying women (and not men) in that study. And it seems to me that portrayals of women in media that they consume, including video games, influences their attitudes about what is normal.

 

[Duffyside]

Just thought I'd toss this out there:

Apparently the absolute dregs of the anxious masculinity gamer crowd are doing their best to embarrass the gaming community (once again) by coordinating attacks against this project. You know what would be awesome? If the non-irredeemable asshole gamers dropped her some verbal support either at her website or youtube videos.

Well-said. I just noticed all the negativity on her video as well, which is why I searched this thread up again.

What exactly are they mad about? Sorry if that seems ignorant or blinded or whatever, but I don't get the anger. I would expect the typical "Marcus Fenix is sexualized too!" stuff, but not the "let's take her down who the hell does she think she is" terrorizing shit.

Can anyone sum this up?

Edit: As I keep thinking about, the only "reason" I can come up with is that they're terrified she's going to say something bad about their favorite game? Or maybe that she'll be so powerful in her message that there won't be any more dumb slut bunnies in games to jerk off to?

 

[GatorBait]

Five stereotypes often used in videogames that reinforce harmful ideas about women:

+Damsel in distress
+Fighting fucktoy.
+Sexy sideckick
+Sexy villainess
+Women as background decoration.

Four out of five can be fixed by making the female characters ugly. Seems easy enough.

 

[charlequin]

Harassment, Misogyny and Silencing on YouTube

I really wish this was even remotely surprising to me. :/

 

[Mumei]

Well-said. I just noticed all the negativity on her video as well, which is why I searched this thread up again.

What exactly are they mad about? Sorry if that seems ignorant or blinded or whatever, but I don't get the anger. I would expect the typical "Marcus Fenix is sexualized too!" stuff, but not the "let's take her down who the hell does she think she is" terrorizing shit.

Can anyone sum this up?

Edit: As I keep thinking about, the only "reason" I can come up with is that they're terrified she's going to say something bad about their favorite game? Or maybe that she'll be so powerful in her message that there won't be any more dumb slut bunnies in games to jerk off to?

I think that this reaction is pretty common when privilege is being attacked. I saw the exact same unhinged reaction from large swathes of the online atheist community last year during the elevator debacle - threats of violence, misogyny, harassment, etc.

 

[jimi_dini]

Male stereotypes are not stereotypes that most male gamers are ashamed of. Nathan Drake is studly, masculine, intelligent, and witty.

One LITTLE thing made me hate Nathan Drake so much since Uncharted 2.

What was it?

Saying "That's your neck" after breaking necks. Making fun of killing people. And they even reused that crappy line for Uncharted 3. And what's even worse: most people don't notice it at all.

 

[Platy]

Edit: As I keep thinking about, the only "reason" I can come up with is that they're terrified she's going to say something bad about their favorite game? Or maybe that she'll be so powerful in her message that there won't be any more dumb slut bunnies in games to jerk off to?

Considering tha mount of people (on shoryuken, on neogaf and on youtube) that simply denied every single bit of evidence and said something along the lines of "whatever, she is a xx woman to me" after that Poison mini documentary ... I would vote for the second part

 

[Duffyside]

I think that this reaction is pretty common when privilege is being attacked. I saw the exact same unhinged reaction from large swathes of the online atheist community last year during the elevator debacle - threats of violence, misogyny, harassment, etc.

Yeah, though I see the word "privilege" showing up all the time these days in these sorts of discussions and I'm not entirely sure what it means.

Anyway, what's this elevator atheist thing you're talking about?

Edit: Nevermind. Got it.

 

[DragonGirl]

I'm sure many GAFers will tell her to toughen up or ignore it :/

I'd point out to said "GAFers" that she has shown no indication of being intimidated by it, and thus, doesn't need to toughen up. It's us, the gamers, that need to counteract the toxic vitriol, unless said "GAFers" are okey-dokey with such hate filled pustules representing us as gamers.

Even if for some bizarre reason you don't support her project, you can always drop by the comments and say "Hey shitheads, I'm a gamer and you misogynist skidmarks don't speak for me."

 

[Femmeworth]

I'd point out to said "GAFers" that she has shown no indication of being intimidated by it, and thus, doesn't need to toughen up. It's us, the gamers, that need to counteract the toxic vitriol, unless said "GAFers" are okey-dokey with such hate filled pustules representing us as gamers.

Even if for some bizarre reason you don't support her project, you can always drop by the comments and say "Hey shitheads, I'm a gamer and you misogynist skidmarks don't speak for me."

Fighting Youtube comments is a fool's errand. I'll be sure to leave a nice comment on her site, though.

 

[encephalon]

At the risk of getting off on a rant, I get really fucking sick of seeing this attempt to re-frame the debate in Every. Single. Gender. Thread. No one believes women are the only ones affected by negative stereotypes. No one one believes we should focus our attention on solving this problem to the exclusion of all other problems. No one believes unwanted stereotypes are the sole property of women. Not even feminists. Go ahead and ask one about male body issues or male objectification or racial stereotypes, there's a damn good chance they'll say "Yeah, that's also a problem, and we should work to solve that as well."

Idk, when I went around browsing the gawker sites I saw Jezebel attack someone for suggesting that males had to put up with gender stereotypes too. I believe it was some sort of image that suggested not every male can be "ken" either. And something along the lines of males having no room to complain, because they are already privileged.

 

[Orayn]

I'm really happy to see someone talking about this in an intelligent and reasonable way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8I0Wy58adM&feature=g-all-u

Five stereotypes often used in videogames that reinforce harmful ideas about women:

+Damsel in distress
+Fighting fucktoy.
+Sexy sideckick
+Sexy villainess
+Women as background decoration.

Worth discussing, worth improving.

Personally I think the best way to address these problems is if more women started developing games and contributing their ideas to the discussion.

You know what an oddly tasteful game was in this regard? Borderlands. Patricia Tannis and Helena Pierce got pretty good characterization and prominent roles in what little plot the game had, all while completely avoiding falling into these stereotypes. Commandant Steele was an allusion to the "sexy fascist villainess" trope, but she didn't really do much apart from making threats over the radio, sending the Crimson Lance after you, and

Spoiler

getting killed by the abomination for opening the Vault without knowing what was inside.

 

[Paracelsus]

I really wish this was even remotely surprising to me. :/

Is it wrong I laughed out loud at the fifth youtube comment?

 

[Akainu]

Can anyone sum this up?

Idk, when I went around browsing the gawker sites I saw Jezebel attack someone for suggesting that males had to put up with gender stereotypes too. I believe it was some sort of image that suggested not every male can be "ken" either. And something along the lines of males having no room to complain, because they are already privileged.

Jezebel is full of idiot just stay clear of it. And yes that comment is just untrue. Unsurprisingly ,to me anyway, most of it come from feminists.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

Is it wrong I laughed out loud at the fifth youtube comment?

I don't see it different from every other one.

You see, this is a common misunderstanding. Normal people don't become assholes on the Internet. The Internet makes the assholes think they can get away with being assholes.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I'm very supportive of FeministFrequency's message, although I do feel that, when picking examples in some of her other videos, she misses the point of a lot of things that are meant to be satirical, or intentionally challenging, or appropriate for their setting, and so on. I'm definitely interested in seeing how this video series turns out nonetheless.

 

[DragonGirl]

Idk, when I went around browsing the gawker sites I saw Jezebel attack someone for suggesting that males had to put up with gender stereotypes too. I believe it was some sort of image that suggested not every male can be "ken" either. And something along the lines of males having no room to complain, because they are already privileged.

The argument you refer to is known as a "But what about the men?!" diversionary tactic used very commonly to derail a discussion about sexism towards women and refocus it on men. You can read about it here.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Two wrongs don't make a right, that's why bringing up male stereotypes is a weak argument, i completely disagree with your argument, though.
The characters you bring up are absolutely ridiculous.
If you think Marcus Fenix is not an offensive, idiotic representation of a male, uhm i can't agree with that.

Yeah Batman is intelligent, powerful and a hot muscular man in a tight suit.
Catwoman is a sexy, powerful, and witty woman in latex suit.
Both are potentially offensive characters with a juvenile design, they are both directed at males, but that doesn't really change the fact that both are appealing to the same (superficial) layer of complexity.
Girls directed media also has stupid stereotypes (for both male and female characters), that's why i think the solution to this, simply is:
Accept that some products are stupider than others and try to broaden the offer (both in stupid and intelligent deep products) to include things also directed at women/girls.

Nothing is better than freedom of expression to balance out this problem, but given the origin of this media, it's gonna need just a little push.

Batman is hardly a character designed to be sexualized. A character like Batman can be viewed as sexual, but his design was not for that sake, because comics are not aimed at women. Catwoman, however can be viewed like that. Marcus Fenix is a hulking idiot, but the average gamer is not going to give a shit about that. My point was that even if a character in a video game is an undesirable one to be in real life, if the character is male, it is usually not going to have the same reaction. Marcus Fenix is a dumb character, but he's powerful, and he is in charge.

 

[A Human Becoming]

Donated $10. Her Tropes vs Women series was really well done. I was happy to help produce more good content!

 

[udivision]

I'm very supportive of FeministFrequency's message, although I do feel that, when picking examples in some of her other videos, she misses the point of a lot of things that are meant to be satirical, or intentionally challenging, or appropriate for their setting, and so on. I'm definitely interested in seeing how this video series turns out nonetheless.

Is there even any room for that kind of thing to not be considered as "part of the problem" by some people? Like, can Bayonetta or Lolipop Chainsaw hide behind "satire" like Jon Stewart and "comedy"? Not to say that Bayonetta and Lolipop chainsaw are purely satire, but I don't have a library of examples...

 

[Emitan]

Bayonetta doesn't bother me because it's so ridiculously over the top. Can't take it seriously. Also it's one of the best games of all time

 

[Femmeworth]

Bayonetta doesn't bother me because it's so ridiculously over the top. Can't take it seriously. Also it's one of the best games of all time

Just because it's stylized doesn't mean that it can't be criticized.

 

[udivision]

Bayonetta doesn't bother me because it's so ridiculously over the top. Can't take it seriously. Also it's one of the best games of all time

I'm willing to bet it comes up in these types of discussions in both a positive and negative light.

 

[Emitan]

Just because it's stylized doesn't mean that it can't be criticized.

I'd prefer the game if it wasn't the way it is, but I don't find it very offensive.

 

[Finaika]

I'd prefer the game if it wasn't the way it is, but I don't find it very offensive.

If the game is good and people love it, they won't find it offensive.

 

[voodoopanda]

I think Bayonetta in-and-of herself is a good character and pretty awesome, and her over the top "sexiness" is a part of her personality and character. And I think she's actually pretty subversive in a lot of ways throughout the story. It's one of those, in a perfect world where there was no obvious issues with the representation of women in games, she wouldn't be a problem. But putting her on the shelf with 100 other games that objectify women isn't really helping anything.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Is there even any room for that kind of thing to not be considered as "part of the problem" by some people? Like, can Bayonetta or Lolipop Chainsaw hide behind "satire" like Jon Stewart and "comedy"? Not to say that Bayonetta and Lolipop chainsaw are purely satire, but I don't have a library of examples...

Lolipop Chainsaw isn't out yet so I really can't comment on whether it's funny or not, for the record I think it looks kind of dumb. I love the idea though.

Bayonetta didn't bother me (in fact, I loved its style) because of how ludicrously over-the-top and tongue in cheek it was - not to mention that, at its core, it defied a few women-in-media tropes. Bayonetta may be a ridiculously sexy walking fetish, but she's also a strong single mother. Still, yeah, the point of Bayonetta is ultimately "sexy ladies doing sexy things", which I don't think is a problem. I think a lack of representation from other points of view is a problem, which might be a point of contention between FeministFrequency and I; namely, I don't think individual games catering to straight white males is a bad thing. I think that a lack of games that cater to other tastes on the whole is stifling women, POC, transfolk, etc. I think sexual objectification is fine depending on context, I just think that it's sad how absurdly skewed it always is towards white males like myself.

Gears of War 3's women bothered me far more, for example. I forget the name of the Australian character in your squad, but practically every line out of her mouth was something along the lines of "you just got beat by a girl!" or jokes about shopping in that supermarket section of the campaign. That was dumb as hell. Likewise, I think that Metroid: Other M is one of the most sexist reinventions of a character I've ever seen in any form of media - taking a character who, despite always being sexy, was always strong and independent and turning her into a blubbering, indecisive tit and ass machine? Fuck that noise.

But, yes, I think there are plenty of things that can be self-aware about their stupidity and "hide" behind being satirical or humorous. I think that labeling satire as part of a problem misinterprets it entirely, considering that the entire point of satire is exposing and ridiculingproblems in society. I also think that it's entirely possible to have sexy women in games without having them be boring, soulless, flat idols for straight dudes to drool over. Honestly, a character with some depth is far more attractive anyway, in my opinion. Again, this is all just my opinion on the matter, and I don't think it's wrong or annoying for people to have a discussion about certain games being offensive of part of the problem and what have you.

tl;dr we need more female/poc/trans/queer/anythingotherthanstraightwhitedude representation in game design.

 

[Blunt]

Couldn't give two hoots about this subject but saw this video touch on the documentary in question and thought of this thread. D'awwwww.

NSFW you unproductive lollygaggers.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

Bayonetta is a good way to show the double standard, actually. Someone pointed it out on GAF previously, but while everything Dante does is meant to be cool and stylish, everything Bayonetta does is meant to be sexy and over the top.

She kinda gets a pass because she's very satirical, everyone else in that game is extremely ridiculous, and she does have a personality (silly and stupid like everyone else's, but it's there). She's the kind of sexualized character nobody would have an issue with if being sexualized wasn't the norm for female characters. Personally I really like the game, and I'm always glad to see most people couldn't give half a fuck about all the crotch shots.

 

[frequency]

Bayonetta didn't bother me either. I don't know why.

I think it's because it is so silly and "over the top". I think I feel the same way about her as what I think men feel about someone like Kratos or Marcus Fenix.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Couldn't give two hoots about this subject but saw this video touch on the documentary in question and thought of this thread. D'awwwww.

NSFW you unproductive lollygaggers.

Telling someone to "shut the fuck up and deal with it" is kind of a cynical way to approach the fact that video games are stuck in one demographic, no? The part about her only doing a video on positive representations after getting 15,000 bucks is something I hadn't thought of, but the rest of the Tropes v Women section of that video is a bit... :I

She's the kind of sexualized character nobody would have an issue with if being sexualized wasn't the norm for female characters.

Bingo. Love it.