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[UrbanRats]

My problem with the Far Cry 3 trailer is that it opened a trailer early in a conference the entire gaming world is watching. A topless woman humping you in first person view. If that must exist, then at least don't shove it to the forefront where it becomes the face of gaming.

As for violence vs sexuality, that's a totally different discussion. It may be helpful to note that I usually stay away from graphic violence in media though.

Nothing wrong with naked tits in the Far Cry 3 trailer, infact, i find absurd that a pair of naked tits are considered "shock value", in a 18+ targeted game.
I would love the "face of gaming" being one that when nipples and sex are shown in a trailer, there's no raving about it for 3 pages, yeah.
Specifically about that game i found more weird the general "white young man going to exotic island and becoming the king of the indigenous tribe" aspect.
We'll have to see the general direction of the story and the depth and value of the characters in the final game though, before criticizing.

As far as Japanese games goes, it's not like i want to use a large brush stroke of course, but from what i've seen they are very much tied to a lot of tropes and stereotypes, when it comes to characterization, which includes often times not a very in depth characterization of female characters, too.

But that's a culture very different from mine, so i don't really know how it compares to their day to day life.

 

[Femmeworth]

And I'm out. Fuck this thread.

I think I shall join you, before I say things that could get me banned.

 

[Metrotab]

Yes I know. I am actually guilty of being an otome game fan.
But those games are there for people who look for them. It's not the face of Japanese games. A non-gamer doesn't think of the pornographic games when they think of "video games".

Alright, I think I understand your position better. You're saying that these female tropes (or gender portrayals) are, in its current state in the Western videogame industry, too all-encompassing in the current mainstream "face" of the industry. It's okay if they are utilised in certain niches, as long as the mainstream provides well-developed female characters in a large enough quantity alongside sexualised women (because the latter will always exist). This would make videogaming a much more welcoming environment for women.

If that's your case, and the case of the woman in the YT video, I can fully agree. Then I also finally understand the true point of the message, because with all the semantics thrown around, as well as the complex matter of the issue, it's not very easy to discern what exactly people want to change or what they perceive as the problem.

 

[Blunt]

Hey y'all, I managed to tear myself away from my game of 'Big Boobs & Burqa's' to holla at these comments. What an honour it must be.

I wish it was possible to down vote posts like these : /

Even though I didn't steal that post from anywhere and claim it as original content, would it put you at ease if I added LE watermark?

You're very blunt.

And you're very......look, I googled your username for a meaning but the first hit was your PSN trophy's on yourgamercards.com. Consider yourself e-stalked.

 

[Baconsammy]

Sure, japanese games tend to make better female characters. If you think female success is family and being dependant of a stronger male figure is something positive.


And I'm out. Fuck this thread.

Yeah, wouldn't have to deal with someone's opinion that's contrary to your own. A beautiful half-naked woman is not offensive to me (nor is a beautiful half-naked man). Some dude snapping necks or slitting throats is. My opinion. Valid.

 

[rCIZZLE]

I think I have a very different idea of "strong female character" than most people.



Well, I think the difference is that the male characters are often characters that male players think are cool and would want to be.

Female characters generally are not at all what you would want to be.

I'm sure there are plenty of women who actually want to be the damsel is distress or sexy sidekick to the Captain America-type lead male. There are also plenty of exceptions. Hell, I know I wouldn't want to be a heartless meathead who chain kills people then laughs about it.

 

[UrbanRats]

Alright, I think I understand your position better. You're saying that these female tropes (or gender portrayals) are, in its current state in the Western videogame industry, too all-encompassing in the current mainstream "face" of the industry. It's okay if they are utilised in certain niches, as long as the mainstream provides well-developed female characters in a large enough quantity alongside sexualised women (because the latter will always exist). This would make videogaming a much more welcoming environment for women.

If that's your case, and the case of the woman in the YT video, I can fully agree. Then I also finally understand the true point of the message, because with all the semantics thrown around, as well as the complex matter of the issue, it's not very easy to discern what exactly people want to change or what they perceive as the problem.

Uhm.. i'm not sure the "face of Japanese gaming" is one with interesting and deep female characters, but i might be wrong.

 

[Metrotab]

Uhm.. i'm not sure the "face of Japanese gaming" is one with interesting and deep female characters, but i might be wrong.

Oh no, I'm not comparing the two at all. That was just a little sidestep for me to understand the distinction between niche and mainstream when it comes to the utilisation of these gender portrayals.

 

[Emitan]

Yeah, wouldn't have to deal with someone's opinion that's contrary to your own.

holy shit

 

[frequency]

Alright, I think I understand your position better. You're saying that these female tropes (or gender portrayals) are, in its current state in the Western videogame industry, too all-encompassing in the current mainstream "face" of the industry. It's okay if they are utilised in certain niches, as long as the mainstream provides well-developed female characters in a large enough quantity alongside sexualised women (because the latter will always exist). This would make videogaming a much more welcoming environment for women.

If that's your case, and the case of the woman in the YT video, I can fully agree. Then I also finally understand the true point of the message, because with all the semantics thrown around, as well as the complex matter of the issue, it's not very easy to discern what exactly people want to change or what they perceive as the problem.

Yes, I think that properly describes my opinion.
I'm not calling for an end to sexuality (of either gender) in games. I just want it to be a welcoming and comfortable community for everyone.

I just hate that if I tell people I like video games, they look at me like I'm some deviant. As the industry is currently portrayed, I can't comfortably admit to being a gamer to other girls and I feel like boys have an immediate impression about me that I'm not comfortable with.



I didn't think the "I feel Japan does female characters better" would be a point of discussion for so many people. I don't know what to say about it beyond what I've already said. Maybe it's relevant and could explain my position, but I am not American. Without getting too personal, my family moved overseas to Canada when I was twelve and remains a somewhat traditional family. So the environment I grew up in might have given me a different definition of what makes a good female character. It could also be because English is a secondary language for me so I might not be expressing myself properly.
I don't call for the same things Anti-Monitor calls for. In fact, I find characters like Commander Shepherd unrealistic.

 

[UrbanRats]

Oh no, I'm not comparing the two at all. That was just a little sidestep for me to understand the distinction between niche and mainstream when it comes to the utilisation of these gender portrayals.

Gotcha.
Well i agree with that, is also related to what i've been saying about the problem being saturation.

 

[Gestahl]

holy shit

Did we somehow get warped to the Men's Rights sub-reddit

 

[Baconsammy]

Did we somehow get warped to the Men's Rights sub-reddit

Point to where I'm preaching men's rights. I'll wait for you to fail to find it.

holy shit

The kind of hit-and-run commenting that literally adds absolutely nothing to a topic.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

The kind of hit-and-run commenting that literally adds absolutely nothing to a topic.

Just like that video, honestly.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

Have you ever noticed that, with a few notable exceptions, basically all male characters in videogames fall into a small handfull of clichees and stereotypes?

Dudebro badass
goody-good cartoon-y guy
non-described soulless insert-yourself guy
whiny emo guy
..


okay, I can't think of more male characterizations in videogames. Women win.

Also, I love how a good bunch of her arguments seem to be based on games which are based on books, comics and movies in the first place.

 

[Baconsammy]

Just like that video, honestly.

Except it did, whether or not you did or didn't like it. He's addressing the subject directly. I don't agree with everything he said, but I did find his defense of his own opinion amusing.

Have you ever noticed that, with a few notable exceptions, basically all male characters in videogames fall into a small handfull of clichees and stereotypes?

Dudebro badass
goody-good cartoon-y guy
non-described soulless insert-yourself guy
whiny emo guy

One of the reasons I enjoyed Alan Wake was he didn't fit the usual video game stereotypes. Writer-nerd turned flashlight dream assassin was a nice change.

 

[UrbanRats]

I think anti-monitor was mad at the "derail" of every woman's rights related thread into a male's rights one.
Or more generally the "Yes but us too have problems" thing.

 

[frequency]

I think men do have reason to be unhappy.

So if they want to voice their concerns at the tropes against men, they can. I'm a bit more negative on the "we deal with it, so you should too" stuff though. I think it's pretty apparent how the portrayal of the genders differ to their respective genders. So it's a little rude to say "deal with it because we do." I also find it a little rude to say "you shouldn't be concerned about the portrayal of women because VIOLENCE."

 

[Gotchaye]

Just out of curiosity, for those here suggesting that sweeping, fundamental changes to the way women are depicted in videogames are necessary, and that the current representations are harmful, please tell me: What sort of female protagonists (and female characters in general) would you want to see? Feel free to cite existing characters if you feel they're relevant, but I'm mainly interested in hearing what you feel would be an ideal, or at least acceptable, depiction of women in games.

I'd like to go back to this for a moment to talk about what sorts of concrete steps could be taken by an individual developer without compromising his or her vision for the game.

Probably the lowest-hanging fruit doesn't have anything to do with the personalities and roles of female characters. Just don't make the camera so male gaze-y and give female characters sensible outfits. Don't include lingering shots of a character's ass/breasts, and don't give female characters gratuitously revealing/skintight outfits. Speaking of Japanese games, Xenoblade* failed miserably on both of these counts (not criticizing frequency's tastes, but the talk about them brought this to mind).

Now, as many have already said, there's no intrinsic problem with a game that is partially /about/ male gaze and (male) fanservice. The problem is when that's normal, and for almost all individual developers those aren't important parts of the story they want to tell or the experience they want to provide. If I'm wrong and it is, then really we just need to throw the bums out and get entirely new people involved in making games, but I don't think I'm wrong.

But to answer the question posed: I'd want to see all kinds. Different kinds. As we've seen in this thread, even among people who agree that the representation of women in games is a big problem, there's disagreement as to what kinds of representation are problematic and what kinds of representation are to be hoped for. If your female character still has some stereotypical attributes, she's part of the problem. If your female character doesn't have any of those, she's a man with tits. The real problem is that those are both more or less true. Yeah, great writing and no sexism would be nice, but we're even less likely to get great writing than we are to get no sexism. There will always be tropes, but even without great writing a lot of the sexism can be taken out of the equation by avoiding sexualization (see other posts) and giving female characters more major (speaking and action) roles. If there are a wide range of female characters, of varying femininity and partaking of femininity in different ways, and who contribute in different ways to the different stories they're all in, then there's really not much of a problem anymore, even if many of the individual female characters (like the individual male characters) could be described as cliche or poorly written or even as an example of a trope.

*Although it's a great game, it's one of those games that I expect most male gamers would be embarrassed to be seen playing for this very reason. I'm sure I remember cutscenes where a certain character's very generous cleavage takes up 2/3 of the screen while someone else talks.

 

[Orayn]

I think anti-monitor was mad at the "derail" of every woman's rights related thread into a male's rights one.
Or more generally the "Yes but us too have problems" thing.

Yeah, this. Baconsammy, people aren't leaving because you're expressing an opposiing viewpoint; they're exasperated at you trying to change the subject and being either very disingenuous or very dense when called on it.

 

[Baconsammy]

I think men do have reason to be unhappy.

So if they want to voice their concerns at the tropes against men, they can. I'm a bit more negative on the "we deal with it, so you should too" stuff though. I think it's pretty apparent how the portrayal of the genders differ to their respective genders. So it's a little rude to say "deal with it because we do."

Fact is you have to deal with it as long as people are buying these games. The decisions are being made by marketing people. They're literally part of a game's design process. Boobs become bigger and bouncier, men become more and more violent and more disaffected. The only way to derail it is to collectively turn our noses up at these games and affect sales or to join the industry and work at changing it from the inside. I'm infinitely more bothered by the extreme violence than I am the sexualization. Not just in video games, either.

Yeah, this. Baconsammy, people aren't leaving because you're expressing an opposiing viewpoint; they're exasperated at you trying to change the subject and being either very disingenuous or very dense when called on it.

Except that never happened. Comment on whatever you want. If I talk about something you don't deem worth discussing, ignore it. I do it all the time. The linked video was quite relevant whether you think so or not.

 

[UrbanRats]

Also, it's not like men can only by bummed by men stereotypes.

Fact is you have to deal with it as long as people are buying these games. The decisions are being made by marketing people. They're literally part of a game's design process. Boobs become bigger and bouncier, men become more and more violent and more disaffected. The only way to derail it is to collectively turn our noses up at these games and affect sales or to join the industry and work at changing it from the inside. I'm infinitely more bothered by the extreme violence than I am the sexualization. Not just in video games, either.

I think it is useful to look at the bigger picture (so looking at how men characters stereotypes work, can help you get a better picture of things are like they are) and so it's important not to dismiss the point completely, at the same time it should not be used to downplay other issues, of course.
As i said before, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Slavik81]

It looks like the discussion is dying. Too bad.

I think the problem with Bayonetta is that Kamiya and company felt that in order for the game to be successful and over-the-top like Devil May Cry, it had to shove her sexuality into the player's face. Why can't we just have a Devil May Cry style action game with a woman lead without the need to sexualize her?

Does Heavenly Sword count? I just played that a few weeks ago.

Nariko and Kai were great characters. The story was about Nariko overcoming prejudice against her due to her gender. And, despite having her bare her midriff, they never really play up her sexuality.

By almost every mark, it seemed like a model game. Though, for some reason, it was included in the background of this girl's video, suggesting it was bad. I don't really understand that.

 

[Emitan]

well the game itself was pretty awful

 

[frequency]

Fact is you have to deal with it as long as people are buying these games. The decisions are being made by marketing people. They're literally part of a game's design process. Boobs become bigger and bouncier, men become more and more violent and more disaffected. The only way to derail it is to collectively turn our noses up at these games and affect sales or to join the industry and work at changing it from the inside. I'm infinitely more bothered by the extreme violence than I am the sexualization. Not just in video games, either.

If you have problems with violence, then go and complain about that. If you have problems with men, go complain about that. It's a little rude to go into a thread where women are unhappy just to tell them "you shouldn't be unhappy."

Everything affects everyone differently. I'm sorry to say, but if you don't think that the portrayal of women in the industry is a problem, then you probably don't belong in this thread.

Is it really not apparent how rude it is?
Girl: "I don't like the way female characters are used in the industry."
Boy: "Deal with it, we do too. Now consider this completely different topic that you should be bothered about instead."

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Why can't we just have a Devil May Cry style action game with a woman lead without the need to sexualize her?

The Metroid Prime of character action? I'd be all over that.

 

[Emitan]

The Metroid Prime of character action? I'd be all over that.

MORE LIKE ALL OVER HER, YOU PIG



This is reminding me I need to get the DMC HD Collection because I've never played a DMC game before.

 

[Mumei]

Skimming some of the earlier parts of this thread has inspired me to link to this. I'm sure the tactics will look very familiar.

I'm infinitely more bothered by the extreme violence than I am the sexualization. Not just in video games, either.

That's fine.

Why would you spend your time in a topic about the problem of sexualization of women if you don't think it is a problem, then?

 

[Baconsammy]

If you have problems with violence, then go and complain about that. If you have problems with men, go complain about that. It's a little rude to go into a thread where women are unhappy just to tell them "you shouldn't be unhappy."

I didn't, and wouldn't, ever say that. You have the right to be offended by whatever you want. I'm the father of a 6 year old daughter and the sexualization does in fact bother me. Less so in video games because I can control that. Music videos, TV, and song content is harder for me to monitor and it's just as pervasive there.

That's fine.

Why would you spend your time in a topic about the problem of sexualization of women if you don't think it is a problem, then?

If you can quote the part where I said it isn't a problem, I'll gladly retract it.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

MORE LIKE ALL OVER HER, YOU PIG

bigjiantrobut's shocking secret: more likely to be attracted to characters who aren't the worst

 

[Femmeworth]

Skimming some of the earlier parts of this thread has inspired me to link to this. I'm sure the tactics will look very familiar.

Bookmarked.

Does Heavenly Sword count? I just played that a few weeks ago.

Nariko and Kai were great characters. The story was about Nariko overcoming prejudice against her due to her gender. And, despite having her bare her midriff, they never really play up her sexuality.

By almost every mark, it seemed like a model game. Though, for some reason, it was included in the background of this girl's video, suggesting it was bad. I don't really understand that.

It's not an action game in the same vein as Devil May Cry from what I understand, but I'll try to check it out sometime. I always avoided it because it wasn't supposed to be very good.

 

[Mumei]

If you can quote the part where I said it isn't a problem, I'll gladly retract it.

You have said that you are "infinitely" more bothered by violence rather than sexualization. You said "a beautiful half-naked woman is not offensive to me," which indicates to me that you, er, don't care about sexualization. You were defending a video earlier castigating the very idea of examining this phenomenon because you thought it was funny, regardless of whether it actually was adding anything to the discussion.

Up until this post I am responding to now, you've given every indication that you think that we shouldn't even be talking about this.

 

[Slavik81]

well the game itself was pretty awful

I enjoyed it. Kai's segments in particular were really entertaining. It's not something I'd have bought at $60, but it's solidly B-grade fun. Like Tomb Raider: Legends or Red Alert 3.

Which reminds me, I think Red Alert 3 had the worst portrayal of women in any game I've ever played. Watch some RA3 cutscenes. It's ridiculous and annoying.

 

[frequency]

Skimming some of the earlier parts of this thread has inspired me to link to this. I'm sure the tactics will look very familiar.

After reading some of that link, I feel silly for engaging some people on this forum. Whether the person I responded to did it intentionally or not, I completely fell for many of those in my responses. I unknowingly took part in the derailment

 

[GamerSoul]

But to answer the question posed: I'd want to see all kinds. Different kinds. As we've seen in this thread, even among people who agree that the representation of women in games is a big problem, there's disagreement as to what kinds of representation are problematic and what kinds of representation are to be hoped for. If your female character still has some stereotypical attributes, she's part of the problem. If your female character doesn't have any of those, she's a man with tits. The real problem is that those are both more or less true. Yeah, great writing and no sexism would be nice, but we're even less likely to get great writing than we are to get no sexism. There will always be tropes, but even without great writing a lot of the sexism can be taken out of the equation by avoiding sexualization (see other posts) and giving female characters more major (speaking) roles. If there are a wide range of female characters, of varying femininity and partaking of femininity in different ways, and who contribute in different ways to the different stories they're all in, then there's really not much of a problem anymore, even if many of the individual female characters (like the individual male characters) could be described as cliched or poorly written.

You make some great points. If there were a more diverse cast of female protagonist than there wouldn't be a problem but I don't see that happening right now. Some of the better female roles, imo, are in games where the player gets to choose between which gender they want to play as so there really hasn't been a lot of great precedents. But again the market dictates that.

For me, a good female protagonist would have to have a lot of dimensions to her character. Definitely, the "don't judge a book by it's cover" approach. She would also have to carry the qualities that would make any character, man or woman, a leader even if it takes some growth. Korra, from Legend of Korra, could definitely be a good way to create a female lead, but that could just be me.

In a scenario I have thought about for an rpg game, with my crazy imagination, involves a female protagonist who has been traveling and battling with a "veteran" male protagonist who, without her knowing and the players knowing, has been training her to become the main protagonist and the focal point of the story, from the beginning. There would also be other characters included with them ofcourse and probably another female of stature connected in the story that would also influence her growth. The idea is to kinda ease the player and the character into this leadership role when the time is needed. After a turn of events, the male protagonist dies as a sacrifice with the comfort that he is leaving the main female protagonist to take the lead for the rest of the game with a better sense of self and confidence at the most critical of times. I'm basically taking the approach that would have the most impact possible as a statement. This is just a basic look into it.

 

[CorvoSol]

So, after the last thread, I've done some thinking on the subject, and I think that, for me, there are a few places where I definitely agree with the ideas expressed, and others where I don't. Or rather, I agree with what I understand to be those ideas.

For instance: I recently played through Parasite Eve: Third Birthday. I have never played the other games related to it, and I have had a lot of problems with the game. A lot of that hinged on the main character, Aya Brea. For the majority of the game, Aya is a weak, on-the-verge of crying sop. On the other hand, all the men around her are crying, and it IS a frightening situation, but then, none of them are running around in lingerie. I dunno, it felt to me like it went beyond being sexy and started being embarrassing, like I didn't want anyone to catch me playing the game embarrassing. The game had a shower scene, too, which I felt was pretty creepy, too.

On the other hand, I never like the idea of discrediting Samus as a character just because of her penchant for wearing revealing clothing. Samus spends most of her time in a suit of armor, and, Zero Suits not withstanding, was a pretty up-standing female character until Other M derailed her. She committed Xenocide for pay, but spares an infant enemy at the last minute, says she doesn't like taking orders, and ultimately burns bridges with the government when she uncovers a plot of theirs. In fact, the way that Other M treated Samus lends a lot of credence to the ideas--as I understand them-- expressed in the OP.

I feel like I'm saying something wrong here. If I'm offending, I apologize ahead of time.

 

[Coolio McAwesome]

The whole uproar (if it can even be described as such) is quite interesting to me.

I don't think there is a lack of strong female characters in video games at all. Admittedly, many of these characters happen to be sexualized to a certain extent, but I fail to see how this is a problem. Honestly, it's not like this trend is limited to video games, nor is it limited to female characters. Have you ever questioned why Harrison Ford was cast as Indiana Jones instead of, let's say, Richard Kiel? Harrison Ford's dashing good looks were a big part of Indiana's character. Indiana Jones is widely regarding as one of the most iconic characters in film history. Nobody has a problem with the fact that Indiana Jones was as sexy as fuck.

It seems to me that if Lara Croft was ugly, she would constantly be used as an example of a strong female character. Afterall, she's really no different than Indiana Jones; and in some ways she's an even a bigger badass. Of course, the fact that Lara Croft has big tits and a pretty face somehow gets her categorized as a "harmful" trope. The argument (I assume) is that the sexualization of her character somehow negates her other strengths. Personally, I don't feel that Ms. Croft's short shorts undermine the fact that she can take on a T-Rex with a pair of handguns.

People like watching attractive people, they like reading about attractive people, and—in the case of video games—they like playing as attractive people. This isn't a problem, this isn't harmful, and it's not going to change.

Can you imagine some 300 pound neckbeard being cast as James Bond in the next 007 film? Of course you can't, because that would be fucking stupid. James Bond is a good-looking guy who can frequently be seen in various states of undress; and he's a complete and total slut who bangs anyone he wants to. A female character in that exact scenario would likely be regarded as a "harmful" trope. This double standard is as clear as day. People have no trouble accepting attractive, sexually-charged male characters. The noton that attractive, sexually-charged female characters are somehow "harmful" seems downright petty to me.

 

[Messofanego]

Glad her Kickstarter got funded, I might plop down $25. I've previously liked her videos, very enlightening and challenging especially the Bechdel test.

The $1000 idea of having a conversation about a specific game would be cool, like just Beyond Good and Evil or The Longest Journey and what they do right.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

The whole uproar (if it can even be described as such) is quite interesting to me.

I don't think there is a lack of strong female characters in video games at all. Admittedly, many of these characters happen to be sexualized to a certain extent, but I fail to see how this is a problem. Honestly, it's not like this trend is limited to video games, nor is it limited to female characters. Have you ever questioned why Harrison Ford was cast as Indiana Jones instead of, let's say, Richard Kiel? Harrison Ford's dashing good looks were a big part of Indiana's character. Indiana Jones is widely regarding as one of the most iconic characters in film history. Nobody has a problem with the fact that Indiana Jones was as sexy as fuck.

It seems to me that if Lara Croft was ugly, she would constantly be used as an example of a strong female character. Afterall, she's really no different than Indiana Jones; and in some ways she's an even a bigger badass. Of course, the fact that Lara Croft has big tits and a pretty face somehow gets her categorized as a "harmful" trope. The argument (I assume) is that the sexualization of her character somehow negates her other strengths. Personally, I don't feel that Ms. Croft's short shorts undermine the fact that she can take on a T-Rex with a pair of handguns.

People like watching attractive people, they like reading about attractive people, and—in the case of video games—they like playing as attractive people. This isn't a problem, this isn't harmful, and it's not going to change.

Can you imagine some 300 pound neckbeard being cast as James Bond in the next 007 film? Of course you can't, because that would be fucking stupid. James Bond is a good-looking guy who can frequently be seen in various states of undress; and he's a complete and total slut who bangs anyone he wants to. A female character in that exact scenario would likely be regarded as a "harmful" trope. This double standard is as clear as day. People have no trouble accepting attractive, sexually-charged male characters. The noton that attractive, sexually-charged female characters are somehow "harmful" seems downright petty to me.

There is a difference between being sexy and being a flat, boring, vacuous sex object designed only to appeal to people through sex. There are plenty of great characters who are also sexually attractive. There's nothing wrong with being stylized, or being attractive, or being driven by sex, but that's not really the problem.

It's actually a weird example to use, but Halo: Reach did a pretty good job with this with Kat. Strong facial features, sexy voice, and, despite all that armor, a nice butt. She's a sexy character but there's pretty much nothing in the game that uses her sexuality in a tropey or offensive way. Likewise, Samus is a pretty damn attractive tall blonde woman, but Metroid Prime doesn't rely on that one iota, even less than the older Metroid games that treated you to bikini-Samus if you 100%ed them.

 

[Emitan]

There's a difference between sexy and sexualized. Alyx Vance and Jade are very attractive women but that's totally different from a character like Laura who's designed to be sexualized to appeal to straight dudes.

 

[voodoopanda]

A lot of the arguments about this subject seem mostly to come from misunderstandings. I think most people who play video games would like to see more variety in terms of characters, and wouldn't hate seeing more interesting, fully developed female characters instead of retreading common tropes and stereotypes. Characters like that make games more enjoyable for anyone playing the game, right? Ideas like this meaning there aren't allowed to be anymore attractive women in games seems to be a misunderstanding.

 

[UrbanRats]

There is a difference between being sexy and being a flat, boring, vacuous sex object designed only to appeal to people through sex. There are plenty of great characters who are also sexually attractive. There's nothing wrong with being stylized, or being attractive, or being driven by sex, but that's not really the problem.

It's actually a weird example to use, but Halo: Reach did a pretty good job with this with Kat. Strong facial features, sexy voice, and, despite all that armor, a nice butt. She's a sexy character but there's pretty much nothing in the game that uses her sexuality in a tropey or offensive way. Likewise, Samus is a pretty damn attractive tall blonde woman, but Metroid Prime doesn't rely on that one iota, even less than the older Metroid games that treated you to bikini-Samus if you 100%ed them.

Uhm, i think i agree, but for example, i was fine with the sex part in Far Cry 3 segment, but i think Cortana's design in Halo is silly and unnecessary.
Of course we must wait for the game to see how it plays out, but having a character that is strictly related to sex (for story reasons) is not a bad thing, having a character (like an AI) that has tits and ass, looks corny and dumbass.
It looks doubly dumbass now that is even more human looking.

I mean i love Lara Croft, for nostalgia reasons (i love Tomb Raider) but she's NEVER been a selling point for me, and her sexualization seems quite out of place, even for the very style of the game ( i'd always use the more realistic alternative costumes, in the later games).
I have no real problems with Bayonetta or Lollipop Chainsaw (i haven't played either though, so i'm going by guess here) because they have the sexualization as a gimmick in the very style of the game; you can argue that it's still a onesided view, that there are not enough game stylized "the other way around" and so on (and i'd agree) but i think it's more disturbing (disturbing is a big word, let's say annoying) when instead this sexualization is completely unnecessary and out of character for the game, such as Cortana, Lara Croft or the camel toe robot in mass effect (don't know the name).
I think if we managed to tone down the sexualization when it's not necessary/out of place, people would have far less problems with things like Bayonetta, too.

 

[jimi_dini]

There is a difference between being sexy and being a flat, boring, vacuous sex object designed only to appeal to people through sex. There are plenty of great characters who are also sexually attractive. There's nothing wrong with being stylized, or being attractive, or being driven by sex, but that's not really the problem.

Eva in MGS3?
Sexy, but even uses this

Spoiler

to trick Snake

and she is also really important to the story. She is not just a sidekick.

Or Kaede Smith from Killer 7? She is just another killer in that game. Playable.

Rebecca Chambers from Resident Evil 0? Imo not sexualized at all and she takes care of herself too. Playable.

Grace Nakimura from Gabriel Knight. Not sexualized at all. Has a sharp tongue. Quite a character.

Nicole "Nico" Collard from Broken Sword series. Takes care of herself. Integral part of the story. And in the Special Edition of BS1, she is even playable. Also playable in BS2 and others (don't remember exactly anymore).

Fiona Belli from Haunting Ground - wears a quite short skirt, but I didn't see her as some sex object. Although I never played through the game completely, so idk. Playable.

Farah from Prince of Persia: Sands of Time - can take care of herself. Sort of love interest, although

Spoiler

it doesn't work out

.

Maria from Silent Hill 2. Integral part of the story. Sort of sexy, but not sexualized (imo). Playable in Special Edition.

Heather from Silent Hill 3. Definitely not sexualized at all. Playable.

Kate Walker from Syberia 1+2. Definitely not sexualized at all. Playable.

Ayame from Tenchu: Wrath of Heaven. Doesn't need to hide behind the skills of Rikimaru. Not sexualized (imo). Playable.

Faith from Mirror's Edge. Not sexualized at all. Playable.

Nina Kalenkov from Secret Files Tunguska series. Not sexualized at all. Playable.

Ashley Mizuki Robbins from Another Code series. Not sexualized at all. Playable.

Thoughts?

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

And our problem, precisely, is the notion that this is a form of entertainment inherently male, when it isn't, that treating women as nothing but a sexual object is wrong, and that the gaming community is ridiculously thick headed to see this.


Oh I agree. It's definitely a problem with gaming design and the thought process that goes while creating female characters that I mentioned earlier. However, I do not see her as inherently problematic as other female characters because it's widely accepted that Bayonetta is a good character because the action part, not the sex part.

Still rather disturbing to see the quotes though.


I'm getting so fucking sick of the but what about the mens philosophy. What about reading some of the fucking thread. Your point has already been addressed. No, it's not the same. Not even remotely.

Kratos is a fucking male power fantasy. His design, his thought process, his importance in the gaming culture, it's all because he's what "males" want to be. They want to be strong, they want to be rude, they want to be alpha males. He's not sexualized, he's not made to be attractive to female games. He's, at most, sexual, as in sex is a part of his character. It's NOT the defining part of his character. Learn the fucking difference.

Lara Croft is a male fucking fantasy. She's not designed as the woman female gamers want to be, she's designed as the woman male gamers want to fuck. Because this industry still thinks all their audience are horny little men who can only value a woman for how much they want to sex her up. And while I don't think Chun Li is a good example of sexualized character (she's sexy, not sexualized), the whole outcry of Poison's gender is a very clear example of the problem with this industry. Poison NEEDED to be female, she CAN'T be a transexual, because then the poor horny gamers can't fap to her.

Stop fucking comparing the problem between males and females because it's not the same fucking problem. Want to complain about how most male characters have ridiculous designs that treat guys like basement nerds who seriously think Kratos and Marcus Fenix are what they'd want to become? Good, I agree. But make a new thread for it because it has nothing to do with the ridiculous sexualization of female characters. For every ridiculous male power fantasy there's a shitload of normal male characters. You can't say the same about female characters. It's not normal that in a game where everyone else is wearing army uniform or power armor the biggest female character is a blue naked chick. It's not normal the only action games with a female character as main character play up their sexuality as if that was their most important trait. And it's not normal that the most important female character in this industry needs a rape attempt as her character defining moment.

Holy fuck this is so fucking infuriating. I so understand Devolution getting banned now.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa take it easy.......sorry. I probably worded it incorrectly. yes, I read the thread and I know my point was mentioned, but I thought I would add a little more to it. Of course I know the difference and there is plenty of sexualization out there and exploitation of women, but my point was I feel IMO that men are portrayed as being attractive and unrealistic in games as well. I see quite a bit of sexualization for females in MMO's with the skimpy, inappropriate armor, but honestly, I never play them so I probably don't pay them any attention. I guess Samus or C Viper is not even slightly offensive to me because I feel they look no worst than Solid Snake or Raiden in their skin tight outfits. IMO I feel that there are quite a bit of strong, normal female characters in video games now more than ever. Admittedly, not in abundance like men, but I think the situation is improving with more realistic female portrayals in games now. Look at Beyond, Gears of War, Silent Hill, Resident Evil, Mass Effect 3, Final Fantasy 13, Last Remnant, Left 4 Dead, Lost Odyssey, Portal, Ninja Gaiden 3, Tales of Vesperia, Dragon Age, Still Life, Red Faction, Binary Domain, Bullet Storm, Hard Corps Uprising, Dead Space, Hydrophobia, Deadly Premonition, Mirror's Edge, WarHammer 40,000 or Last of Us for a few examples. I guess when I look at Jin Kazama and then look at Jill Valentine, they are both portrayed as visually appealing characters to both genders. Yes, I do know the games that borderline ridiculousness when it comes to female characters and that is undeniable. I mentioned Chun Li because I was reading an article that was complaining that she was oversexualized which I do not see and got me thinking that sometimes it does get blown out of proportion at times like Ashley Williams from Mass Effect 3 or Zero Suit Samus. I was looking at things from a slightly different perspective when I was comparing females to the males. Not saying that it is appropriate, should be treated lightly or accepted, but I guess don't take it as serious as other people since it is fantasy and entertainment. I would go into further detail about my points mentioned earlier, but I'm done. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

 

[Bert]

And on the subject of sexual objectification, I saw something interesting a few weeks ago:

PROBLEM: Women's bare bodies are on display in billboards, movie posters, and many other kinds of ads. Though plenty of studies have looked at the ramifications of this pervasive sexual objectification, it's unclear if we see near-naked people as human beings or if we really do view them as mere objects.

METHODOLOGY: Researchers led by Philippe Bernard presented participants pictures of men and women in sexualized poses, wearing a swimsuit or underwear, one by one on a computer screen. Since pictures of people present a recognition problem when they're turned upside down, but images of objects don't have that problem, some of the photos were presented right side up and others upside down. After each picture, there was a second of black screen before each participant was shown two images and was asked to choose the one that matched the one he or she had just seen.

RESULTS: The male and female subjects matched the photos similarly. They recognized right-side-up men better than upside-down men, suggesting that they saw the sexualized men as persons. On the contrary, the women in underwear weren't any harder to recognize when they appeared upside down, indicating that the sexy women were consistently identified as objects.

CONCLUSION: People objectify women in sexualized photos, but not men.​

I think it at least raises some questions about the way people subconsciously view men and women and why it is that even when sexualized men continued to be seen as people (and thus is mattered when they were viewed in a different state) and why women were made into objects in the minds of the participants.

I haven't read the last couple of page, so apologies if I'm repeating something.

I often wonder here if we're not getting the cart before the horse here. Maybe it's not that men and women are exactly equal and designed to perform the exact same roles in society, but the evil media has turned women into sexual objects.

Maybe it's that there is a basic mismatch in the sexual availability of men and women due to pregnancy and limited egg supply. This creates an unequal field where women are more sexually desirable in general than men, and that leads to the mismatch in the media, something that is just reflecting base psychology/physiology.

Basically women are sexier than men in general, which perhaps explains the "lesbian for a semester" phenomenon and a whole load of other things.

I realise I might come across as a misogynistic male, and maybe I am, but is it that wrong to say that all people find women more attractive than men and as such more sexualised women show up than men?

Also, I know a lot of women (strong, independent women) who love playing sexualised games, hell my gf's favourite game after Animal Crossing was Playboy Mansion! When we play games with selectable characters she chooses sexy women to play as. So I'd also argue with the idea that men like to play as meatheads but women all want to play as Annita Roddick.

Finally, I like boobs. I don't think this is immature or sexist. I enjoy sex and I enjoy naked ladies, I had no problem with the Far Cry trailer, though I wonder if this is because I'm European and not American, you guys have a very different attitude towards sex and nakedness.

Sorry for the bitty post, I guess my thoughts aren't 100% clear on this, but I've really enjoyed both sides of this debate.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

Not surprised if anyone has already posted this, but here it is:

Shitty Kickstarter Documentaris by Foreverpandering

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

dp

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Not surprised if anyone has already posted this, but here it is:

Shitty Kickstarter Documentaris by Foreverpandering

It was posted like a page ago. As much as I enjoy Foreverpandering sometimes, telling someone to "shut the fuck up and deal with it" because they don't really jive with the general demographic most games aim for helps no one. Also, positive representation of women in games is "ample?" Noooot so much.

I do think his point about FeministFrequency's stretch goals was pretty funny, though. Still, I'm pretty sure FF's videos are intended to be a "documentary" like the other video he discusses.

 

[UrbanRats]

It was posted like a page ago. As much as I enjoy Foreverpandering sometimes, telling someone to "shut the fuck up and deal with it" because they don't really jive with the general demographic most games aim for helps no one.

One little thing: the Heavy Rain character is a TERRIBLE female character and it's there JUST for tits.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

One little thing: the Heavy Rain character is a TERRIBLE female character and it's there JUST for tits.

My favorite part was when they couldn't resist this blatant shot during the apartment scene.

The whole "wiggle the sticks to not get molested!" thing is hilarious too. Really, there's no other, better way you could handle this scene and these themes?