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Tropes versus Women in Video Games
- Thread starter Kodiak
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Femmeworth
Banned
That video is not constructive at all.
Jacksonlee
Member
stereotypes exists partly due to truth of it - in terms of historic and factual reasoning, - as women are physically weaker than men, the "damsel is Distress" (in terms of physical weakness- not ONLY difference) is valid for me.
the rest - w/e.
videogames are mostly made by men, entertained by men, and enjoyed by men.
i see nothing wrong with this/.
the rest - w/e.
videogames are mostly made by men, entertained by men, and enjoyed by men.
i see nothing wrong with this/.
XANDER CAGE
Member
There's plenty wrong with your post, but I'd really like to point out that it's really said if something can only be "enjoyed by men" if it involves shitty female stereotypes. You're also wrong about video games mostly being played by men, too. Plenty of female/trans gamers out there. Why are there so few games willing to break out of the 18-35 straight white male audience?
Bayonetta's character isn't offensive because she's in complete control of her sexuality. She uses it as a weapon rather than a handicap. I'd say she's a strong, female character, but I don't think she's 'just' a strong character like someone like The Boss because you couldn't do Bayonetta as a male. You could try, but it would be far more unbelievable and probably offensive.
Finaika
Member
I think Bayonetta's male equivalent is Duke Nukem.
Baconsammy
Banned
But it sure was good.
I am not sure whether you got the elevator thing or your question about privilege, but this is a good introduction to the concept of privilege (and without using the word "privilege" since it seems to make the uninitiated have an allergic reaction upon hearing it).
Correct.
If anything, I am nicer here since my ordinary prickliness is filtered.
Femmeworth
Banned
No, it wasn't.
I think the problem with Bayonetta is that Kamiya and company felt that in order for the game to be successful and over-the-top like Devil May Cry, it had to shove her sexuality into the player's face. Why can't we just have a Devil May Cry style action game with a woman lead without the need to sexualize her?
DragonGirl
Banned
Except that she isn't. Female characters said to "take control of their sexuality" and use it against the bad guys are not demonstrating their own agency. The reason being because they are characters, not people. They do not make decisions, they act out the desires of their creators.
As for Bayonetta, well...
? The line between harmful and offensive is clearly blurry here, because i think it's completely fine for art to be offensive (to any degree) as long as you are able to avoid the product and have an ample offering of alternative views (granted you're not the only person with those views in the world
).Harmful i consider something specifically referring to you as a person (mentioning your name, using your face etc, something very specific) or physically harmful.
Uhm, yeah i'm pretty sure i already said that.
I said those stereotypes are directed at young males, so each character has different tropes and roles, does this make Batman or Marcus less offensive? No, not really.
Just because Marcus Fenix is the violent macho output without a brain, doesn't mean that it's fine because it's not "sexualized", infact, there's nothing wrong with sex or sexualization, the "wrong" is in the superficial representation of a characters as a one trick pony, role gendered.
Allegedly, i don't even think there's a problem with that, if, again, you have a more ample offering to cover all your audience needs and you don't take yourself seriously in your superficiality.
Meaning: Gears of War probably wouldn't be better with some deeply designed characters, but it's still as stupid as any Catwoman showing cleveage, unless you think being a violent idiot is inherently better than being overtly sexual, which to me is absurd.
Yeah this is a good question.
I mean, putting aside the obvious economic reasons (now more than ever, game publishers play it as safe as it can be in pretty much every way possible, including but not limited to, the demographic they target).
So to me the first step would be to simply expand the range of offering, start to target more females, ethnic minorities and LBGT.
You'd have stupid, superficial products like we got now, but more differentiated and aimed at more demographics.
If the market is good enough and there's a response, then you would see the usual target change and you would see a more array of products all around, this would probably start to bring in (hopefully) more female/minorities/LBGT game creators, in lead positions, to try and answer to that specific demographic.
It would still be a plethora of superficial, stereotyped products, but with a good range of diverse public.
At this point i think it would be just a natural evolution of: more artistic savvy people would join in and start creating more artistically fancy products (which have no economic based "target audience") and it would become more similar to cinema, where if you want some serious and deep products, you can watch movies 24/7 without ever touching something like Transformers, but if you like the Transformers, you can do the same thing and never be bothered by a serious film (and anything in between).
All without ever renouncing to any Bayonetta or Arkham City.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
This topic has been beaten to death many times. Men IMO are just as sexualized as women imo in comic books, games ,TV, movies, music videos, etc. How is it that manly, violent, blood-thirsty Kratos can run around in a lion cloth and no one says anything about that, but Lara Croft and Chun Li are considered sexualized? For some reason, we only hear about it in video games mostly though. Why always get the prettiest models for these movie roles lately? Why not a homely looking, average girl that wasn't a former model? I think since creators know it is a fantasy world, they rather get someone who is visually appealing as opposed to someone who you can see everyday. That doesn't make it right, but that is most likely the way it is. Also, despite what people say there are no shortage of good looking male characters, with perfect bodies and muscles everywhere that looked liked they stepped out of fashion magazine. There are positive, strong female characters out there. That is more than I can say for minorities which is an entirely different subject.
DragonGirl
Banned
Was that addressed to me? If so, the first part of my comment was general, not a comment about Bayonetta, which is why I separated it from the comment/link below.
Femmeworth
Banned
Those comments from Kamiya are rather telling. -_-
Seriously, what the fuck?Hideki Kamiya said:
Baconsammy
Banned
I thought it was. Imagine that.
Femmeworth
Banned
Congrats, you have a very low standard for what "good" is.
Just out of curiosity, for those here suggesting that sweeping, fundamental changes to the way women are depicted in videogames are necessary, and that the current representations are harmful, please tell me: What sort of female protagonists (and female characters in general) would you want to see? Feel free to cite existing characters if you feel they're relevant, but I'm mainly interested in hearing what you feel would be an ideal, or at least acceptable, depiction of women in games.
I thought it illustrated some good points about how the money this kickstarter's bringing in doesn't seem to be going toward the documentary, how it looks like the documentary is going to be extremely biased, and how the whole thing seems self-serving and pointless. But I guess you don't want to hear it.
Female characters with depth, character arcs, and recognizable personalities would be ideal (for games that spend time on story). Male characters with those traits would be welcome as well.
In the short term, before the majority of video game stories can transcend being completely fuck-awful, I'd settle for women characters that play an active role in advancing the plot, are competent at what they do, and don't wear outfits that are overtly stupid. There are a handful of games that have done this, including Mirror's Edge, the Portal games, and likely the upcoming Vita Assassin's Creed game, but the fact that people have to keep pointing to the same five or so examples in these discussions is telling.
The Anti-Monitor
Banned
And our problem, precisely, is the notion that this is a form of entertainment inherently male, when it isn't, that treating women as nothing but a sexual object is wrong, and that the gaming community is ridiculously thick headed to see this.
Oh I agree. It's definitely a problem with gaming design and the thought process that goes while creating female characters that I mentioned earlier. However, I do not see her as inherently problematic as other female characters because it's widely accepted that Bayonetta is a good character because the action part, not the sex part.
Still rather disturbing to see the quotes though.
I'm getting so fucking sick of the but what about the mens philosophy. What about reading some of the fucking thread. Your point has already been addressed. No, it's not the same. Not even remotely.
Kratos is a fucking male power fantasy. His design, his thought process, his importance in the gaming culture, it's all because he's what "males" want to be. They want to be strong, they want to be rude, they want to be alpha males. He's not sexualized, he's not made to be attractive to female games. He's, at most, sexual, as in sex is a part of his character. It's NOT the defining part of his character. Learn the fucking difference.
Lara Croft is a male fucking fantasy. She's not designed as the woman female gamers want to be, she's designed as the woman male gamers want to fuck. Because this industry still thinks all their audience are horny little men who can only value a woman for how much they want to sex her up. And while I don't think Chun Li is a good example of sexualized character (she's sexy, not sexualized), the whole outcry of Poison's gender is a very clear example of the problem with this industry. Poison NEEDED to be female, she CAN'T be a transexual, because then the poor horny gamers can't fap to her.
Stop fucking comparing the problem between males and females because it's not the same fucking problem. Want to complain about how most male characters have ridiculous designs that treat guys like basement nerds who seriously think Kratos and Marcus Fenix are what they'd want to become? Good, I agree. But make a new thread for it because it has nothing to do with the ridiculous sexualization of female characters. For every ridiculous male power fantasy there's a shitload of normal male characters. You can't say the same about female characters. It's not normal that in a game where everyone else is wearing army uniform or power armor the biggest female character is a blue naked chick. It's not normal the only action games with a female character as main character play up their sexuality as if that was their most important trait. And it's not normal that the most important female character in this industry needs a rape attempt as her character defining moment.
Holy fuck this is so fucking infuriating. I so understand Devolution getting banned now.
tearsofash
Member
Check out her Toy Ads and Gender video. Pretty good.
After that, then reconsider why we see oversexualized women in games, and blunt force bru-hah baldies as well. It all starts to come together IMO. I think if we had laws banning advertising to children, we might not be adults with this stuff ingrained into heads and be such a simple market to cater to.
One time when I was 13 my stepdad took away all my games and told me that I should throw away the ones with scantily clad women on them. I never really got turned on by game cover art design, so I had a hard time with this. However, I knew that throwing away Tomb Raider was going to satiate his need for control. He also wanted me to throw away Final Fantasy 8 but that wasn't going to happen. I never really viewed any of them as "sexual objects" and the games I play now may have a scantily clad female or two, but it's not the selling point. I want engaging story. Now, honestly, something like Bayonetta, No More Heroes females, and Lollipop Chainsaw I buy because the females are reminiscent of old exploitation movies and are just kinda eccentric. My image of real women doesn't change because of a fictional game like that.
After that, then reconsider why we see oversexualized women in games, and blunt force bru-hah baldies as well. It all starts to come together IMO. I think if we had laws banning advertising to children, we might not be adults with this stuff ingrained into heads and be such a simple market to cater to.
One time when I was 13 my stepdad took away all my games and told me that I should throw away the ones with scantily clad women on them. I never really got turned on by game cover art design, so I had a hard time with this. However, I knew that throwing away Tomb Raider was going to satiate his need for control. He also wanted me to throw away Final Fantasy 8 but that wasn't going to happen. I never really viewed any of them as "sexual objects" and the games I play now may have a scantily clad female or two, but it's not the selling point. I want engaging story. Now, honestly, something like Bayonetta, No More Heroes females, and Lollipop Chainsaw I buy because the females are reminiscent of old exploitation movies and are just kinda eccentric. My image of real women doesn't change because of a fictional game like that.
Femmeworth
Banned
Oh for fuck's sake. For one, her video series isn't even a documentary, and nor does she present it as one. She critiques pop culture, it's what she does. There are valid criticisms against her, for example there isn't a whole lot of explanation on her Kickstarter page in regards to how the money will be spent.
Yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about. You can always go to her YouTube channel and actually watch one of her videos to get a sense of what she does.
I have no idea if it helps, but keep in mind that plenty of people posting in this thread (including myself) agree with you and see that the "men have it just as bad in games" argument as both completely false and a distraction from the issue at hand.
Are there examples of media wherein the female characters are the "female power fantasy" and the male characters are the "female fucking fantasy"?
And would the existence of such media be a problem?
Honest questions because I haven't seen that gender-reversal yet.
I do hope this doesn't lead to some form of puritanism though, where every sexy/sexualized woman in a videogame can be considered a source of criticism. I'm okay with criticising the lopsidedness or the lack of non-sexualized female characters and I would gladly support seeing well-developed female characters in games, but I don't think "low-brow appeals" should be needlessly sacrificed for "high-brow appeals". There is a place (and more importantly, consumer demographic) for both.
And would the existence of such media be a problem?
Honest questions because I haven't seen that gender-reversal yet.
I do hope this doesn't lead to some form of puritanism though, where every sexy/sexualized woman in a videogame can be considered a source of criticism. I'm okay with criticising the lopsidedness or the lack of non-sexualized female characters and I would gladly support seeing well-developed female characters in games, but I don't think "low-brow appeals" should be needlessly sacrificed for "high-brow appeals". There is a place (and more importantly, consumer demographic) for both.
No, as long as they are not the majority of the offer (same goes for male power fantasies and male fuck fantasies).
I personally think it's all a problem of saturation, but i've already said so and going back in the pages, i realized we're just going over the same points again and again, in every thread of this kind.
I guess repetition can help awareness, at least.
I'm not asking for "sweeping, fundamental changes", but I would like some change.
An example of a female character I really enjoy and "look up to" is Serah from FFXIII-2. Generally speaking, I feel Japan treats female characters in games better than the West.
I think I might be in a minority though. I personally do not like characters like Commander Shepherd - who is often cited as a "strong female lead."
The female characters I like are capable and strong in their way, but are still distinctly "girly". Serah, for example, is just as useful and just as important as Noel. She doesn't spend the entire game being saved. In fact, she is completely capable and does a lot of saving of other people herself. But she is never just "a man with tits". She's a deep character.
I think male players also like characters like Serah. So I don't think we really need sweeping changes. I think it really just comes down to proper writing and respect.
Now i'm fucking confused.
I think Red Dead Redemption had the best example of unbiased male/female characters lately.
Bonnie, Abigail and Luisa were all "strong female characters" but without being ridiculous bullshit.
Then there were even a more variety of characters, such as the catholic girl that
dies in the desert
R* in general is pretty good at this, if you look at GTA or Max Payne 3.
Finaika
Member
Uhhh...
Well, I'm just thinking off the top of my head. There are many many female characters in Japanese games I can say I like.
I can literally think of only one I like in Western games - Alyx Vance.
Of course, both markets have bad things. In the West you have the Ubisoft Far Cry 3 trailer. In Japan, you have Mugen Souls.
But like I said, I think I'm in the minority.
Again, just from my mind, not really thinking deep about it, I like:
- Serah
- Pretty much all the Atelier heroines
- Reanbell
- All the Wild Arms female characters
- Yggdra
- Persona female characters
- Many of the Suikoden female characters
- Tales - Leia, Tear, Rita
- Valkyria - Riela, Imca, Cosette
Baconsammy
Banned
No, I have *a* standard. Whether it's low or high is insignificant. Much like your opinion of it.
Finaika
Member
Maybe you just prefer Japanese games?
In Japan, you also have dating simulations or romantic visual novels (sometimes erotic, to the point of pornography), so I think Japan just spreads out their characterisation more, over the entire spectrum.
Western video games are mostly inspired by Hollywood, I'd guess, where the "attractive women" stereotypes (sexualisation, damsel in distress, ...) also proliferated and got popularised in general pop culture. These stereotypes are easily recognisable for Western consumers and easily reproduced. Maybe it's because video games are still a young industry, relatively speaking, and it's just "catching up"?
Baconsammy
Banned
I quite liked the Far Cry 3 trailer. Really well done. I personally found Splinter Cell's trailer to be offensive...for its portrayal of men.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
No it doesn't. Penny advertisements may have a different definition of "pretty decent paycheck" to different people I guess.
voodoopanda
Member
With Japan, I wonder if it just has to do with the audience. I know with comic books, in the West they're generally considered young male centric, but manga in Japan is written for a large variety of their population, male and female. This would cause the need for games that appeal to both to sell well, etc.
Femmeworth
Banned
Tell me how that video was good. You even agreed with me that it wasn't constructive.
That could be it. I do play a number of Western games too though. I think my US PSN account trophy list is something like 65% Japan, 35% West. My PC gaming is almost exclusively Western.
I'm talking about "mainstream" games. Not crazy PC-only adult games. I don't know. I can just name significantly more female characters I like out of Japan.
I think there's something to this post. I feel there are many games that are targeted specifically at me out of Japan. Or, at the very least, don't make me uncomfortable. The West is kind of a boys club.
Baconsammy
Banned
It entertained me and made me laugh. Given how many videos that are linked to that don't, it's good. I never agreed with you that it was or wasn't constructive. And it didn't need to be. Sometimes being entertaining is its own reward.
White knight someone's opinion for free expression on a subject, say another person is dumb for merely enjoying a video on the subject whilst not stating their opinion on the matter one way or another.
Rational.
My problem with the Far Cry 3 trailer is that it opened a trailer early in a conference the entire gaming world is watching. A topless woman humping you in first person view. If that must exist, then at least don't shove it to the forefront where it becomes the face of gaming.
As for violence vs sexuality, that's a totally different discussion. It may be helpful to note that I usually stay away from graphic violence in media though.
EDIT: To further talk about the Japan thing. A lot of it is just that at the very least, many female characters don't make me uncomfortable and aren't embarrassing. And that's enough for me. As I stated in discussions from earlier in the week (which I don't expect people to look up), I'm not asking for sweeping changes. I'm not a feminist. I'm not asking the industry to shift focus onto me. I just want the gaming community to be a comfortable and welcoming place for my gender. And a way to work towards that is to not show stuff like the Far Cry 3 trailer on such a stage. If the male gamers must have sexualized women in their games, at the very least, let it be behind curtains. Don't let that be the face of gaming.
Femmeworth
Banned
You lost me there. Try again.
The Anti-Monitor
Banned
Sure, japanese games tend to make better female characters. If you think female success is family and being dependant of a stronger male figure is something positive.
And I'm out. Fuck this thread.
Some of those games got quite the commercial success though, even voted to "Best Games" lists, so I wouldn't wave it away like that.
There are even successful gender-flipped series ("otome" games), which kinda answers the question I asked myself before.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't. At least not in the games that I play. Sure, in some games there is more of a focus on family, but that goes both ways. Men are portrayed as needing women as much as a women is portrayed as needing men. The dependency is not one-sided.
I'm sorry if I offended you. My opinion is probably a minority one. I'll stop if you feel it's hurting the fight for better treatment of girls in games.
Yes I know. I am actually guilty of being an otome game fan (which is why I won't be a hypocrite and say abolish all sexuality in games).
But those games are there for people who look for them. It's not the face of Japanese games. A non-gamer doesn't think of the pornographic games when they think of "video games".
I wish it was possible to down vote posts like these : /
Finaika
Member
You're very blunt.
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