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[UrbanRats]

I think male characters look just as ridiculous as the female characters. Kratos, Chris Redfield, or the Gears of war meatheads don't look like most men. They are never critiqued the same way cause no one really gives a shit.

The reason why so many gamers are ok with these simplistic gender roles representation, is probably due to:
1) These gender roles empower males (although they often depict them like idiotic apes, but that's ok for a lot of people anyway) and don't challenge their basic moral views.

2) Male characters still have a lot more variation, there are a LOT of male funny/ugly characters, something that is unseen for female ones-- you can have an old master of Kung Fu, but not a fat old woman doing the same.

quoting myself.

 

[Lancehead]

What if it is not the stereotypes that are pushing girls away (generally speaking)? What if the fundamental aspects of videogames simply isn't appealing to them because of what they are taught? If girls excluded videogames from their taste, then it is only natural that their taste in aesthetics would be underrepresented. If we see stronger female characters is it more likely to appeal to men who want stronger female characters (Joss Whedons of the world) than women.

It maybe beneficial to look at the fact that plenty of men also do not find the fundamental aspects of videogames appealing, that this isn't just limited to women.

 

[Campster]

I think male characters look just as ridiculous as the female characters. Kratos, Chris Redfield, or the Gears of war meatheads don't look like most men. They are never critiqued the same way cause no one really gives a shit.

Actually, the example I keep falling back on in the wake of this whole debacle is a comparison between Kratos and Soul Calibur's Ivy. They're both pasty white warriors that use blades-on-chains and have very little clothing covering themselves up. But Kratos is clearly an empowerment fantasy - when you're playing Kratos you're a badass who slays mythical beasts and even the Gods themselves, and the near-naked and buffed out presentation he provides reinforces this. You're the star player and the narrative revolves around you entirely - this is your story of violent revenge and defiance.

In contrast, Ivy is presented as a sexy chick for men to look at, and not an empowered female. Her clothing doesn't reflect a powerful frame the way Kratos' did, but rather emphasizes sex characteristics men find pleasing - her butt and boobs are all but on display, exacerbated by jiggle physics that draw the eye. Her moves aren't the crushing, fire-soaked blows of power, but rather vaguely sexual in nature - several of her whip movies border on being outright S&M. And she's part of an ensemble cast that minimizes any character growth or depth that could offset her ridiculously one dimensional character design. The result is that, when playing Soul Calibur as Ivy, you don't get a sense of taking control of and identifying with a powerful character. You just get a sense of "Hey, look at them boobies jigglin'," a sense that you're supposed to be looking at Ivy's body and not through her eyes.

Media literacy really seems to be causing a lot of confusion on this issue, but context matters when describing what a near-naked person means and what a work says about that person and their nudity.

 

[Minion101]

Actually a lot of people seem to give a shit since it keeps being brought up in this thread over and over as if it somehow excuses the terrible representation of women in games.

And there is a difference between objectification of female characters and male power fantasies, but as I said we've been over this a lot.

They are about as empowering as bayonetta.

 

[UrbanRats]

Actually, the example I keep falling back on in the wake of this whole debacle is a comparison between Kratos and Soul Calibur's Ivy. They're both pasty white warriors that use blades-on-chains and have very little clothing covering themselves up. But Kratos is clearly an empowerment fantasy - when you're playing Kratos you're a badass who slays mythical beasts and even the Gods themselves, and the near-naked and buffed out presentation he provides reinforces this. You're the star player and the narrative revolves around you entirely - this is your story of violent revenge and defiance.

In contrast, Ivy is presented as a sexy chick for men to look at, and not an empowered female. Her clothing doesn't reflect a powerful frame the way Kratos' did, but rather emphasizes sex characteristics men find pleasing - her butt and boobs are all but on display, exacerbated by jiggle physics that draw the eye. Her moves aren't the crushing, fire-soaked blows of power, but rather vaguely sexual in nature - several of her whip movies border on being outright S&M. And she's part of an ensemble cast that minimizes any character growth or depth that could offset her ridiculously one dimensional character design. The result is that, when playing Soul Calibur as Ivy, you don't get a sense of taking control of and identifying with a powerful character. You just get a sense of "Hey, look at them boobies jigglin'," a sense that you're supposed to be looking at Ivy's body and not through her eyes.

Media literacy really seems to be causing a lot of confusion on this issue, but context matters when describing what a near-naked person means and what a work says about that person and their nudity.

WHAT ABOUT VOLDO?!

 

[SolidSnakex]

i have no idea how many women play CoD. i don't play it. i was just going off what Riposte said.

I was just pointing that out because you don't necessarily need something to be marketed toward you specifically in order to find it appealing. The NFL is heavily marketed toward males, yet 33% (as of 2010) of their viewers are female.

When it comes to stuff like CoD what can turn people away is the attitudes that you'll come across online. But that really has less to do with Activision's marketing and more to do with how empowered some people feel due to having anonymity online. Those are the people that are quick to throw out every sexist, racist and homophobic term that they can think of if they start losing. Getting rid of them so people don't need to turn off their mics is a much more difficult problem.

 

[Riposte]

i bolded the things that made me go 'huh?' you don't need to be any of those things to play COD.

I wasn't speaking of Call of Duty exactly. I just listed two environments I have a really hard time imagining a girl being in.

i think that's a different phenomena actually. i'm going to use a gender stereotype of my own now! hooray! it seems to me that *enthusiasts* tend to be male. i don't know why this is, but guys often seem to focus in on a specific thing and put all their efforts into that, and it's rare for a woman to focus all her energies on just one thing... so i don't think your competitive gaming thing really demonstrates anything.

go to a horror convention and you'll see way more guys than women. go to a horror film opening night, and it'll be mostly women. more women go to watch horror movies than men, but more men are obsessed about horror than women.

I think this phenomena is essential. It would be a waste of time to put it on the side. Videogames is the most demanding medium and the videogames which are not tend to be the most popular among women. I have zero interest in how women take to facebook or motion control games (and etc) and it is pretty hard to deny that the gap widens for more intensive games ("core" games and beyond).

no one wants pandering, and the changes we are asking for are not destructive.

Injecting more thoughtfulness doesn't have any big risks, but bigger changes will. If there is a trend where games featuring female protagonists bomb, a dev is less likely to accept that. I also don't believe it will change much for reasons I stated. (Ultimately it comes down to what the dev wants to do creatively and if fewer girls are in the medium due to lack of interest then that area isn't going to be covered. Look at Uncharted for an instance of a female writer making characters I would think feminist find appealing. SOME Feminist anyway. Can never please them all.)


EDIT: I just want to note that there is a strong homosexual presence in competitive fighting games. Doesn't that go against expectations?

 

[HyperCubed4]

I think male characters look just as ridiculous as the female characters. Kratos, Chris Redfield, or the Gears of war meatheads don't look like most men. They are never critiqued the same way cause no one really gives a shit.

Because that depicts men in a positive light. To be a man in society is to be strong, emotionless, dominant, courageous, etc. That is not women's role in society (according to the media), which is why many most damn-near all of them don't have roles like that.

To depict unrealistic expectations of men and women create negative stereotypes. I don't understand why this is even questioned.

 

[Emitan]

*giggles*

Shhhh

 

[Vermillion]

*looks at copies of CoD1, UO, 2, and 4 for PC, CoD 2, 3, 4, and 6 for 360*

How did these get here? Must have a brother I never knew about.

Well statistically, less women play games like CoD.

But now, speaking as a hobbyist, CoD isn't that great anyways.

 

[Emitan]

Well statistically, less women play games like CoD.

But now, speaking as a hobbyist, CoD isn't that great anyways.

CoD4 was the last one worth playing. Really regret buying MW2.

 

[Kinyou]

WHAT ABOUT VOLDO?!

Voldo is... Voldo

 

[Riposte]

Call of Duty is just a benchmark and a forgiving one at that. Even if the day comes that girls make up 50% of CoD's audience, that still wouldn't be anywhere close to true for ArmA.

 

[The Wizard]

@Wizard: Like pointed out in Devolution's post though, wouldn't it be ideal, in any case, to create a more neutral scenario in which boys and girls can balance themselves out? Given how faint and light these studies appear to be, as of now, the extreme social pressure (try being a boy who plays with girls toys in school and not being bullied) for gender segregation we have regarding toys, is unwarranted, or at least looks that way.

Oh, absolutely. Just to clarify I wasn't suggesting that social pressure isn't a factor that influences childrens preferences towards toys (It's fairly clearly is) just that there are also other factors to consider also and that when some people suggest that boys and girls are wired differently there is some truth to it.
Evidence for culutural influence over gender roles is pretty easy to find too. Up until the 20th century or so boys were associated with pink and girls with blue. However today the opposite is true, which suggests preference towards colour is not biological but a social and cultural construct.
Overall I think it is the discouragement for children who try to stray from these gender roles by their parents and peers that does the most harm. Maybe the segregation between genders wouldn't be as much a problem if children were not treated badly or looked down upon whenever a boy decides to play with a doll or girl decides she wants to play with toy cars.

 

[UrbanRats]

Voldo is... Voldo

Doesn't get more sexualized than Voldo, let me tell you:

Gagged, butt naked AND with his crotch exposed.

 

[Kinyou]

Doesn't get more sexualized than Voldo, let me tell you:


Gagged, butt naked AND with his crotch exposed.

True, but I have the feeling that the only person who's really into that stuff is Voldo himself.

 

[Devolution]

Hilde is just about the only female character I like in that game. Could use more characters like her in general in fighting games.

 

[Riposte]

Hilde is just about the only female character I like in that game. Could use more characters like her in general in fighting games.

What's your bread and butter combo?

 

[sleepykyo]

In contrast, Ivy is presented as a sexy chick for men to look at, and not an empowered female. Her clothing doesn't reflect a powerful frame the way Kratos' did, but rather emphasizes sex characteristics men find pleasing - her butt and boobs are all but on display, exacerbated by jiggle physics that draw the eye. Her moves aren't the crushing, fire-soaked blows of power, but rather vaguely sexual in nature - several of her whip movies border on being outright S&M. And she's part of an ensemble cast that minimizes any character growth or depth that could offset her ridiculously one dimensional character design. The result is that, when playing Soul Calibur as Ivy, you don't get a sense of taking control of and identifying with a powerful character. You just get a sense of "Hey, look at them boobies jigglin'," a sense that you're supposed to be looking at Ivy's body and not through her eyes.
.

While I agree on the sexual nature of her presentation, she has grown from villain to hero to advisor over the years. Game-play wise, she was top tier in SC2 and SC4. And her moves are pretty powerful. eg. SC2 22A. 6B2, Calamity Symphony. Her alt costumes in SC2 and SC4 weren't too bad. Blame the Bayonetta artist for SC5 Ivy alt. Not to mention Namco includes a pretty extensive customization options for the players.

 

[Emitan]

What's your bread and butter combo?

scrambled eggs tastes pretty good with bread and butter to be honest

 

[UrbanRats]

True, but I have the feeling that the only person who's really into that stuff is Voldo himself.

Well, his master was probably more into it than him, but he's dead at the end of the first game anyway.

Now that i think about it, Voldo's backstory may be more disturbing than i remember, i think he was a slave or something and they cut his tongue to not let him slip away his master's secrets, something of the sort.

 

[Minion101]

Because that depicts men in a positive light. To be a man in society is to be strong, emotionless, dominant, courageous, etc. That is not women's role in society (according to the media), which is why many most damn-near all of them don't have roles like that.

To depict unrealistic expectations of men and women create negative stereotypes. I don't understand why this is even questioned.

Kratos propetuates the stereotype of men showing few emotions other then anger. I wouldn't call it positive as much as no one gives a shit.

 

[Emitan]

Well, his master was probably more into it than him, but he's dead at the end of the first game anyway.

Now that i think about it, Voldo's backstory may be more disturbing than i remember, i think he was a slave or something and they cut his tongue to not let him slip away his master's secrets, something of the sort.

He guards the location of the Money Pit stage if I remember correctly.

 

[UrbanRats]

He guards the location of the Money Pit stage if I remember correctly.

Yes, it's that i get my games mixed up.
I don't remember if that was in Soul Blade or Soul Calibur.

Anyway, talking about Soul series, i also liked Seung Mina, though most of her dresses weren't exactly amazing, lol.
Liked her fighting style anyway.

 

[Devolution]

What's your bread and butter combo?

Don't know the exact names but I was partial to 3 and 4.

 

[HyperCubed4]

Kratos propetuates the stereotype of men showing few emotions other then anger. I wouldn't call it positive as much as no one gives a shit.

That ties in with dominance. Kratos gets angry, gets revenge, feels empowered, feels dominant.

I meant for that to have a sort of "TA-DA!" connotation, not a homosexual connotation. Just so nobody flies off the handle.

 

[Akainu]

Doesn't get more sexualized than Voldo, let me tell you:


Gagged, butt naked AND with his crotch exposed.

How is that not a male power fantasy?

That ties in with dominance. Kratos gets angry, gets revenge, feels empowered, feels dominant.

I just think he just gets more self destructive and feels more angry.

 

[UrbanRats]

How is that not a male power fantasy?

Well, he is certainly someone's fantasy, let's leave it at that.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

Voldo looks ridiculous, I don't think he's meant to be attractive to anyone.

And what, I like Soul Calibur, it has been my favorite fighting game since I first played it on the GC. All the dudes are meant to be pretty and shit too, and the fuckenormous tits of SCIV weren't really that big in game. The girls are pretty damn sexualized, but I think the majority of the guys are meant to be pretty rather than empowering. And fuck yes, I'm a huge fangirl of Tira.

But the point stands, Ivy isn't meant to be empowering, Kratos is. Same as the guys from Gears of War and all that. When the game's entire point is to be brutal and kill, the fact your guy is the most brutal and the one who kills the most is empowering. And it's something guys like, too, or else Kratos and Marcus wouldn't be so commonly used as "hot dudes" when guys talk about fanservice for women. They talk about what attracts them, and the idea of being a mountain of muscle that controls the entire world is appealing to them, as much as a nice pair of tits.

That's why, when Kratos kicks ass, they focus on the carnage and the enemies he's killed. When Ivy does it, they focus on how sexy she looks while doing it.

 

[UrbanRats]

Voldo looks ridiculous, I don't think he's meant to be attractive to anyone.

You know i was kidding, right? Though of course, if anyone finds Voldo (or BDSM) sexy, i don't judge.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

You know i was kidding, right? Though of course, if anyone finds Voldo (or BDSM) sexy, i don't judge.

I've seen a lot of people actually trying to use him as Ivy's counterpart, though I assumed you were joking yeah.

 

[Minion101]

That's why, when Kratos kicks ass, they focus on the carnage and the enemies he's killed. When Ivy does it, they focus on how sexy she looks while doing it.

Kratos looks pretty sexy while doing it. The just always pan away.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

Kratos looks pretty sexy while doing it. The just always pan away.

They never focus on how his muscles flex, or the poses he makes. Because it's not important. It's important to know just how much he fucks his enemies' shit up.

 

[Devolution]

Kratos isn't an objectified guy unless you think designing people along the lines of idealized Spartans is in some way sexualization.

 

[Minion101]

Whatever his gives me a rise.

 

[kaioshade]

Kratos isn't an objectified guy unless you think designing people along the lines of idealized Spartans is in some way sexualization.

I dont know, quite a few of my female friends were drooling quite noticeably during 300.

 

[Devolution]

I dont know, quite a few of my female friends were drooling quite noticeably during 300.

Yeah but 300 actually had fangirl service. Kratos, not so much.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

I dont know, quite a few of my female friends were drooling quite noticeably during 300.

Fuck yeah and I did, too.

It helps the chaps in 300 weren't butterfaces, there was quite some focus on showing off them muscles in an attractive fashion, and *drool*

That movie drove me crazy for a week.

 

[cutmeamango]

Kratos isn't an objectified guy unless you think designing people along the lines of idealized Spartans is in some way sexualization.

If you actually go to the representation of men (and women) in classic Greece, much of it was sexualization. They did not have this OMG SHE/HE IS HOT! 'mindless lust', but an ideal of how potent and fertile someone was. (Funny enough, the size of the penis did not matter at that time).
Unless you think only sculpts/art made by women can explicit sexualization of the other sex, or that sexualization only occurs in modern times.

 

[Devolution]

If you actually go to the representation of men (and women) in classic Greece, much of it was sexualization. They did not have this OMG SHE/HE IS HOT! 'mindless lust', but an ideal of how potent and fertile someone was. (Funny enough, the size of the penis did not matter at that time).
Unless you think only sculpts/art made by women can explicit sexualization of the other sex, or that sexualization only occurs in modern times.

I'm saying from the point of view of the people making it and marketing it towards a particular young male demographic that Kratos is less "lets make him sexy" as "let's model him after spartans." I know all about the sexualization of men through art in Greece thanks.

 

[TUROK]

Kratos isn't an objectified guy unless you think designing people along the lines of idealized Spartans is in some way sexualization.

Ah, so the inverse must be true as well, then. Simply giving a female character skimpy clothing and prominent assets is not sexualization or objectification either.

 

[Devolution]

Ah, so the inverse must be true as well, then. Simply giving a female character skimpy clothing and prominent assets is not sexualization or objectification either.

Once again a poster doesn't understand the difference between a male power fantasy and sexual objectification of women.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

Once again a poster doesn't understand the difference between a male power fantasy and sexual objectification of women.

Or maybe you're just not making any sense.

Seems all your problems are made up, missy. Hell, I'd argue that Kratos is even MORE sexualized than Ivy because, guess what, he's wearing LESS clothes. How does your feminist pseudo-logic deal with that, HUH.

 

[The Wizard]

Ah, so the inverse must be true as well, then. Simply giving a female character skimpy clothing and prominent assets is not sexualization or objectification either.

Yes, the clothing by itself is not sexist but the focus and intent of the developer when displaying the character. Are kratos' muscles used to sell God of War to horny females in the same way as certain female fighting characters design might be used in advertising towards a young male demographic? I think not.

 

[Riposte]

Bouncing between objectification and sexual objectification is confusing. The process of turning the idea of a human being into a videogame character with a highly specific purpose is objectification. Kratos is an object, an instrument to "deal damage" to other objects in order to reach a win condition.

EDIT: Also sexual objectification is pretty harmless if it doesn't lead to people objectifying women outside of the fiction. One could argue for example that the culture surrounding rap music objectifies women because people want to be "pimps" in real life. It is harder to argue the same thing for most videogames (minute details in them at that).

 

[TUROK]

Once again a poster doesn't understand the difference between a male power fantasy and sexual objectification of women.

Once again a poster pretends to operate under the guise of equality, yet refuses to apply it to their own arguments.

So what IS the sexual objectification of men? Because if it's not a minimum amount of clothing and chiseled muscles, what is it? Big cock flapping in the wind? Banana hammock thongs?

 

[Femmeworth]

If Kratos looked like one of the actors from 300, there would be an argument about him being sexualized. Nathan Drake is more sexualized than Kratos.

 

[UrbanRats]

might aswell post what i mentioned earlier:

Which uses some sexual elements similar to Alexander (reason why i mentioned them together:

Though while Vagrant Story also tends to feminize at least one of its characters (Sydney)
Alexander is a bit more androginous all around, so females have some masculinity to them and males have some feminility.. i guess it's also because of the drawing style, not sure if it's intentional.

 

[Minion101]

If you actually go to the representation of men (and women) in classic Greece, much of it was sexualization. They did not have this OMG SHE/HE IS HOT! 'mindless lust', but an ideal of how potent and fertile someone was. (Funny enough, the size of the penis did not matter at that time).
Unless you think only sculpts/art made by women can explicit sexualization of the other sex, or that sexualization only occurs in modern times.

I thought homosexuality and orgies were rampit and commonly depicted in art at that time.

 

[HyperCubed4]

Once again a poster pretends to operate under the guise of equality, yet refuses to apply it to their own arguments.

So what IS the sexual objectification of men? Because if it's not a minimum amount of clothing and chiseled muscles, what is it? Big cock flapping in the wind? Banana hammock thongs?

Are kratos' muscles used to sell God of War to horny females in the same way as certain female fighting characters design might be used in advertising towards a young male demographic? I think not.

Yeah. That. I have yet to see a big-name game do that.