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[Bruce Springsteen]

https://www.facebook.com/ABCNews/videos/10155808880448812/

Just watched it live. It's absolutely bonkers and cringe worthy watching the President of the United States giving a speech at the new NATO HQ with heads of state standing right there as he complains about them not paying their fair share of money for defense.

You're trying way too hard, of all the things to go after Trump for this is not it

 

[azyless]

That Luxembourg discussion is the funniest thing I've heard all week. Why on earth would freaking Luxembourg quadruple their military budget.

 

[Username1198]

https://twitter.com/SteveKopack/status/867758571882258432

Wow, a true 5th grader. Pushing people out of the way to be in front of the line lmao

 

[Muffin1611]

Honestly, only France and Germany, possibly Italy should be chastised more. Especially Germany as the leader of the EU, largest economy, and one that HELD back from applying harder sanctions on Russia, Gazprom, Putin during the annexation of Crimea. They can and should easily increase to meet 2% requirements and it would only strengthen western Europe and the EU itself if Germany took on a more forceful approach to defense and military. I can see why Germans struggle with this in light of their history, but in an increasingly multi-polar world, and a future of an EU without the UK, to ensure greater German interests both domestic and abroad, they need to increase their defense spending. But this is something you force privately. Putin and Xi Jinping are probably laughing with glee at Trump, NATO/Western Europe.

And in all honesty, after the cold war, NATO is pretty much just a US military satellite agency meant to project US power. Encircling Russia by incorporating baltic and eastern European states, having Turkey control near the Bosphorous etc. It is not in the interest of US to downplay NATO if they want to remain a world superpower.

Germany spending double on defense would have the consequence of us not really needing NATO anymore.

Also, we're legally not allowed to do that, the army would exceed our maximum.

You're trying way too hard, of all the things to go after Trump for this is not it

Why? It's a completely idiotic request only aiming to make the NATO members buy more planes etc. from the US. And the NATO members already agreed that they'd try to up their spending till 2024.

Just cause Trump is doing way worse stuff doesn't mean I'm gonna shut up when I see this.

 

[BigDug13]

Bragging to other nation leaders about his electoral college win is actually making the U.S. population look bad because it shows how dumb we are as a country.

And when it's been decided by the IC of multiple nations that Russia did in fact interfere in our elections and that Trump is indeed under investigation for said meddling, is it really a good idea to brag about how by using that interference he was able to win when the nation that interfered is the very nation that is part of the reason NATO was founded?

 

[Tovarisc]

That Luxembourg discussion is the funniest thing I've heard all week. Why on earth would freaking Luxembourg quadruple their military budget.

2% or bust

 

[Auto_aim1]

It's time to talk about a unified EU army

Without the US and UK, Russia will steamroll the "EU army" in no time. Germany is not going to bear the burden singlehandedly like the US and a few other countries are doing now.

 

[enewtabie]

Would it make more sense to base NATO requirements on each countries capabilities ?

 

[gutter_trash]

Would it make more sense to base NATO requirements on each countries capabilities ?

yeah, the 2% is vague. I agree that they should have members specialize.

You can't ask Lux to build a Navy when it has no sea. Best have them specialize on something else entirely

Without the US and UK, Russia will steamroll the "EU army" in no time. Germany is not going to bear the burden singlehandedly like the US and a few other countries are doing now.

Yeah, Germany is the only country in Europe /s

FYI, the US just wants to sell vehicles and arms, that's why the beat the 2% drum

 

[E-phonk]

I quote the post that lists country based on quota, and Luxembourg is a richer country than Croatia, for example, that contributes more.

Luxembourg is so big, they call their capital and only real city.. Luxembourg. It's really the silliest example you could've picked. It's a city surrounded by forrests and mountains, some villages and that's it. You could've also asked why iceland doesn't have almost any NATO budget (hint: they don't have a real army).

Croatia on the other hand is a country that is situated in the only corner of Europe where there has been a real war and conflicts in the last 30 years.

 

[Muffin1611]

Without the US and UK, Russia will steamroll the "EU army" in no time. Germany is not going to bear the burden singlehandedly like the US and a few other countries are doing now.

Oh look, it's the Russia army myth again

 

[Hyun Sai]

The Luxembourg funding debate is a thing of beauty.

 

[PdotMichael]

Can't compete with Russia!

 

[Xando]

Without the US and UK, Russia will steamroll the "EU army" in no time. Germany is not going to bear the burden singlehandedly like the US and a few other countries are doing now.

This is factually incorrect and you should look up the facts before posting

 

[Orniletter]

We'll just add the missing money we'll have to pay for housing and feeding the millions of refugees the US bombed out of the middle east which the US doesn't have to fucking bother with because of it's geographical location.
I'm sure quite a few member states would be reasonably close to the 2% target.

It's super stupid to demand members like Austria and Luxembourg to spend 2% of it's GDP on defense in the first place.

We can't get our integrated EU army soon enough.

 

[DogDude]

Something I can agree with Trump on

 

[Muffin1611]

Something I can agree with Trump on

Guess you are just as well-informed as him then

 

[DiipuSurotu]

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

Something I can agree with Trump on

Jr. Member that joined in 2015 with almost no post. Sigh*

 

[dragonelite]

Without the US and UK, Russia will steamroll the "EU army" in no time. Germany is not going to bear the burden singlehandedly like the US and a few other countries are doing now.

Does Russia even have the finance to steamroll the EU.

 

[Auto_aim1]

Yeah, I probably exaggerated a little bit there but an EU army isn't really feasible. The US may be a bit unreliable right now but NATO is an incredible defensive alliance. Focus on strengthening it.

 

[BlastProcessing]

You're trying way too hard, of all the things to go after Trump for this is not it

Here is Bruce Springsteen's official list of things to go after Trump for:

 

[DerangedHermit]

Something I can agree with Trump on

Hmm, interesting cause it seems to me that you agree a lot more with Trump than just this.

Probably the best speech (or most key rather) he's ever given and will reinvigorate his Republicans and his base.

Trump is probably nearing top 10 status.

This is embarassing even by cnn standards

Obama is an incredible speaker, perhaps the best there is. Trump is up there though. Their styles could not be more different so it's hard to compare. Obama is powerful and moving while Trump is extremely personal like he's having a direct conversation right next to you.

Probably the most obvious winner of our lifetime to be honest. I've never seen someone dictate headlines or the news cycle even close to how he does.

Hillary finished 2nd to Trump again

This is going to be terrific for Trump especially if this is getting out in front of a bigger story.

edit: i mean, i don't even care that much if you're a fan of Trump but no need to be a disingenuous piece of shit when posting in support of him.

 

[The Wise Old Man]

Is he wrong?

"No Walter you're not wrong, you're just an asshole"

 

[PdotMichael]

Does Russia even have the finance to steamroll the EU.

We are talking about a nation which aircraft carrier must be followed by a tugboat at all times.

 

[Hyun Sai]

Does Russia even have the finance to steamroll the EU.

Of course not, and Putin must laughing his ass off watching all this nonsense...

 

[Host Samurai]

I can't wait till Trumo o' clock 5-6PM tonight. Makes me feel a bit better when stuff comes out that will piss him and the GOP off.

 

[SecretMoblin]

2% has always been stupid... which says a lot about Euro members who agreed to the target and the comically dumb nonsense of "well the target is a long ways away, we'll just ignore it until then"

weird to see the reactions in here to very routine rhetoric from an American prez, when the reaction to this

As your ally and as your friend, let me say that we'll be more secure when every NATO member including Canada contributes its full share to our common security," the president told Parliament.

was broadly "Wow, can we elect him to a third term, or maybe king of earth??? Please???"

”I suppose you could call me a realist in believing we can't, at any given moment, relieve all the world's misery," he said. But he went on to describe himself as an internationalist and an idealist. Above all, Mr. Obama appeared weary of the constant demands and expectations placed on the United States. ”Free riders aggravate me," he said.

”I want to take this opportunity to commend Greece for being one of the five NATO allies that spends 2 percent of GDP on defense, a goal that we have consistently set but not everybody has met," Obama said. ”Greece has done this even during difficult economic times. If Greece can meet this NATO commitment, all our NATO allies should be able to do so."

etc.
The "optics" at the summit are dumb but the rhetoric ain't new.

 

[kswiston]

What I'm saying is if there is a quota that the countries aren't meeting there's either a problem with the quota or a problem with the country.

Considering how much waste there is in the military contracts of some countries, I don't see how a flat percentage is really all that meaningful a metric.

 

[4Tran]

Without the US and UK, Russia will steamroll the "EU army" in no time. Germany is not going to bear the burden singlehandedly like the US and a few other countries are doing now.

What? Russia's military isn't what it was like back in the Cold War. Right now, it's stronger than any other European power but it has relatively limited offensive capability. I doubt that a Russian offensive would even be able to get far into Poland before it stagnates. The only NATO countries that have much to fear from Russia would be the Baltic States, but not even NATO is incapable of defending them.

 

[E-phonk]

Yeah, I probably exaggerated a little bit there but an EU army isn't really feasible.

I think it's inevitable, personally. With a big level of specialisation for each country. The irony is that this would make EU defenses cheaper, not more expensive - so the GDP % would be lower.

 

[BlastProcessing]

We are talking about a nation which aircraft carrier must be followed by a tugboat at all times.

Which is why they are investing in manipulating elections and destroying the fabric of european democracy. Much cheaper. By making this speech (at a 9-11 memorial service no less) Trump is doing more for the Russian cause than a shiny new aircraft carrier could.

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

Is he wrong?

No. Only 5/28 countries pay the agreed upon share to NATO. Trump is an idiot, but he is right on calling out other countries for not paying what was agreed upon. Everybody is supposed to pay 2% or more of their GDP.

EDIT: Hadn't seen this, which is the exact same link I had posted:

Based on GDP and the 2% rule, no, but just stupid to pick a fight over something like this with your allies. It's kind of like standing up at a dinner with your friends and calling out the couple who owe you money. It is silly and he shouldn't be doing it, he is a horse's ass.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-share-breakdown-country-2017-2

United States, 3.61%.

Greece, 2.38%.

Britain, 2.21%.

Estonia, 2.16%.

Poland, 2%.

France, 1.78%.

Turkey, 1.56%.

Norway, 1.54%.

Lithuania, 1.49%.

Romania, 1.48%.

Latvia, 1.45%.

Portugal, 1.38%.

Bulgaria, 1.35%.

Croatia, 1.23%.

Albania, 1.21%.

Germany, 1.19%.

Denmark, 1.17%.

Netherlands, 1.17%.

Slovakia, 1.16%.

Italy, 1.11%.

Czech Republic, 1.04%.

Hungary, 1.01%.

Canada, 0.99%.

Slovenia, 0.94%.

Spain, 0.91%.

Belgium, 0.85%.

Luxembourg, 0.44%.

It's more like going to dinner every night and 5/28 people pay their fair share or even more when they can. Meanwhile, 23/28 people who always go to dinner never pay what they are supposed to, but always eat just like everyone else at the table. Even if they are BFFs and family, perfectly reasonable fight to pick.

 

[DogDude]

Hmm, interesting cause it seems to me that you agree a lot more with Trump than just this.















edit: i mean, i don't even care that much if you're a fan of Trump but no need to be a disingenuous piece of shit when posting in support of him.

Lol that's "support"? I don't like Trump but I do find him fascinating for being so manipulative. There's one post in there where I supported his position and it's in this very thread as I said as much. I do find neogaf outlandish about him at times though. Let's not mistake that for support.

 

[Shiggy]

Yeah, Germany won't do that. And there's no need. While the US pays to bomb countries and leave a trainwreck behind, Germany invests more into trying to fix that mess.

To quote our foreign minster: “The United States will realise it is better to talk about better spending instead of more spending."


And while we're at that...

According to latest OECD available figures based on gross national income, Germany spent more in relative terms on overseas development aid in 2015 than the US - 0.52% of GNI compared with 0.17% for America.

http://www.oecd.org/dac/development-aid-rises-again-in-2015-spending-on-refugees-doubles.htm

 

[IrishNinja]

Is he wrong?

you're pretty naive if you think the US hasn't disproportionately benefited from NATO, or that continuing to shit on our allies as a matter of principle is a wise policy going forward

 

[TS-08]

2% has always been stupid... which says a lot about Euro members who agreed to the target and the comically dumb nonsense of "well the target is a long ways away, we'll just ignore it until then"

weird to see the reactions in here to very routine rhetoric from an American prez, when the reaction to this


was broadly "Wow, can we elect him to a third term, or maybe king of earth??? Please???"




etc.
The "optics" at the summit are dumb but the rhetoric ain't new.

Trump is different though. He fundamentally misconstrues the 2% guideline. He talks about how these countries owe money from past years and clearly treats it like a payment that is "owed." That's not what it is. Furthermore, the member nations agreed in 2014 to increase spending over ten years to meet the goal and spending has, in fact, increased. So what does Trump want, exactly?

 

[kswiston]

No. Only 5/28 countries pay the agreed upon share to NATO. Trump is an idiot, but he is right on calling out other countries for not paying what was agreed upon. Everybody is supposed to pay 2% or more of their GDP.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-share-breakdown-country-2017-2

They aren't paying that money to NATO. That is a list of defense budgets as a percentage of each country's GDP.

It's sort of ridiculous to think that smaller nations with no global reach will be spending a proportional cut of their GDP to that of a world superpower on their military.

The US is spending 3.5% of the GDP on defense because they A) want to maintain their global power projection, and B) have a lot of contractor waste (also see US healthcare spending)

 

[Shiggy]

No. Only 5/28 countries pay the agreed upon share to NATO. Trump is an idiot, but he is right on calling out other countries for not paying what was agreed upon. Everybody is supposed to pay 2% or more of their GDP.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-share-breakdown-country-2017-2

Allies whose current proportion of GDP spent on defence is below this level (2% of GDP) will:
-halt any decline in defence expenditure;
-aim to increase defence expenditure in real terms as GDP grows;
-aim to move towards the 2% guideline within a decade with a view to meeting their NATO Capability Targets and filling NATO's capability shortfalls.

http://www.nato.int/cps/ic/natohq/official_texts_112964.htm

There's still a long time until 2024. Nobody agreed that this needs to happen immediately, like Trump makes it sound. Also, it's not really a fixed target, just a "guideline".

 

[Muffin1611]

No. Only 5/28 countries pay the agreed upon share to NATO. Trump is an idiot, but he is right on calling out other countries for not paying what was agreed upon. Everybody is supposed to pay 2% or more of their GDP.

EDIT: Hadn't seen this, which is the exact same link I had posted:



It's more like going to dinner every night and 5/28 people pay their fair share or even more when they can. Meanwhile, 23/28 people who always go to dinner never pay what they are supposed to, but always eat just like everyone else at the table. Even if they are BFFs and family, perfectly reasonable fight to pick.

If only everyone would take a look at post #45 we could avoid these comments

 

[Xando]

The irony of asking germany to achieve 2% is that the US ignores that this kind of rearmament would significantly reduce US and UK influence in europe and the world.

 

[SilentRob]

No. Only 5/28 countries pay the agreed upon share to NATO. Trump is an idiot, but he is right on calling out other countries for not paying what was agreed upon. Everybody is supposed to pay 2% or more of their GDP.

EDIT: Hadn't seen this, which is the exact same link I had posted:



It's more like going to dinner every night and 5/28 people pay their fair share or even more when they can. Meanwhile, 23/28 people who always go to dinner never pay what they are supposed to, but always eat just like everyone else at the table. Even if they are BFFs and family, perfectly reasonable fight to pick.

The fact that you just believe Trump in his reasoning and completely ignore the last six pages of arguments and reasons the 2% guideline (again, NOT a rule anyone agreed on) is hilariously stupid for countries like germany or Luxembourg kinda says it all.

 

[fantomena]

NATO general secretary Jens Stoltenberg commented about this issue last year:

Stoltenberg: - I agree with Trump

 

[TS-08]

It's pretty clear that a lot of people believe the 2% figure represents an actual annual payment that each country owes, which is part of what Trump's rhetoric relies on.

 

[scamander]

I'm pretty sure Trump believes that himself.

Some of the Americans in this thread make me wish we really would go forward with an unified EU army and leave NATO for good. Sick and tired of this disingenuous rhetoric.

 

[msdstc]

jfc the parade of stupidity this guy continues to lead is insane.

 

[spock]

If the cost balance is out of wack then they should be called out by whoever is POTUS.

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

The irony of asking germany to achieve 2% is that the US ignores that this kind of rearmament would significantly reduce US and UK influence in europe and the world.

That's not a bad thing.

 

[Jotaka]

Hmm, interesting cause it seems to me that you agree a lot more with Trump than just this.

edit: i mean, i don't even care that much if you're a fan of Trump but no need to be a disingenuous piece of shit when posting in support of him.

 

[Azuran]

Hmm, interesting cause it seems to me that you agree a lot more with Trump than just this.

edit: i mean, i don't even care that much if you're a fan of Trump but no need to be a disingenuous piece of shit when posting in support of him.

lol