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[ArkkAngel007]

From thread on Turtle Rock forum.

On accusations of DLC content being cut from the base game:

A lot of folks seem to be under the impression that we've got all this content done and we shave off a hunk to sell separately. That just isn't the case. When Evolve hits the shelves, none of the DLC will be done. Behemoth won't be done. None of the planned DLC hunters or monsters will be done. The only exception to this might be some skins that were working on now while we wait for all the final stages of packaging, manufacturing etc. to finish.

If we thought we could have finished all those monsters and hunters for ship we would have put them in the box. (Keep in mind, we pretty much have to have the game done about 2-3 months before it's available to you guys...we can keep fixing bugs and such, but content is locked.....
...
...

As we got closer to finishing Evolve we ended up with designs for a bunch of monster and hunters that we just didn't have the time and money to make. Instead of throw them all out, why not put together a budget to make them as DLC? Means more content for the people who love the game and want more. It also means all those ideas get to see the light of day. Oh yeah, and it means more work for TRS and we can keep paying our bills and making cool stuff!

On DLC content splitting the community:

So we worked it out so that any DLC maps are free, any new game modes are free. Then, recognizing that not everyone wants to buy DLC, we made sure that even if you didn't purchase any of the paid content, you could still play with people who did! So if I buy a new monster or hunter, and you don't, we can still play together. You may not want to buy it, but your original purchase of the game will be enhanced by it anyway because you can still get into games with people who wanted to buy them. Hell, you can even set the DLC characters and monsters up as opponents in solo games.

On DLC character balance:

...we won't be purposely making DLC hunters and monster overpowered to make people feel like they HAVE to buy them to stay competitive. We plan to keep things as balanced as possible for as long as people are playing the game.

Basically (and rightfully) directing the issue of costs at 2K:

Ultimately, TRS makes the games, we don't sell them...and as the developers we've done our best to make a game that people want to play. We then have to trust our publisher to make the best decision on how to sell that game.

A few more good tidbits, including stuff on the bundles and how Turtle Rock Studios has changed since their L4D days. Highly recommend giving it a read.

 

[Doczu]

Done or not done, announcing DLC for your game before it comes out is even more shitty than day 1 DLC.

 

[Card Boy]

This will be Brink levels of dead within a month.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Charging $15 fucking dollars just for the Behemoth if you don't pre-order is plain ridiculous. Like something I'd expect to see in satire.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

This will be Brink levels of dead within a month.

What the hell does that have to do with the thread? Appreciate the bump during the slow hours on GAF, but don't appreciate the drive by bullshit.

Done or not done, announcing DLC for your game before it comes out is even more shitty than day 1 DLC.

Well, if you read the OP

Spoiler

Keep dreaming Arkk

, they are done with the content months in advance, and this was after being given a 4 month extension by 2K to get their intended content done. So DLC work starts as the pre-production team has nothing to do with polishing the game, and once they finish they get to work on the DLC while the game is in certification, manufacturing, and distribution.

2K is going to capitalize on that, and even here on GAF a lot of people demand to know what post-launch support will look like. So DLC is going to get marketed out at soon as it starts taking shape.

Now, Season Passes on the other hand in trying to sell off DLC before all the details are out is a whole different story and something that needs to stop.

 

[Papercuts]

I appreciate the focus on not splitting up the community but the pricing is absurd.

$15 for a monster and $7.49 per hunter when you would generally want all 4 is already 45 goddamn dollars. If they're trying to offset costs then it's much more sensible to go the route of skins. Make hunter outfits, random accessories, etc. that would be cheap to make so the dedicated people can buy that up if they want.

It really sucks if it's all on the publisher for that shit.

 

[Guile]

Turtle pls. I want this game to succeed purely because these guys made L4D but I hate these kind of practices. :/

 

[_DiGiTaL_]

Done or not done, announcing DLC for your game before it comes out is even more shitty than day 1 DLC.

+1 this is ridiculous and I can't even blame publishers for it anymore they will do it as long as most of these gamers keep buying it. Doczu it isn't just shitty in my opinion it is a SCAM. And then for publishers to say it wasn't cut is a load of BS. If you have all this info on DLC before your game is available to purchase...... IT WAS CUT CONTENT!!! I miss the days where you unlock stuff from working on it in game. At the very least their should be some kind of policy where the DLC is not available for at least 30 days or something similar.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

I appreciate the focus on not splitting up the community but the pricing is absurd.

$15 for a monster and $7.49 per hunter when you would generally want all 4 is already 45 goddamn dollars. If they're trying to offset costs then it's much more sensible to go the route of skins. Make hunter outfits, random accessories, etc. that would be cheap to make so the dedicated people can buy that up if they want.

It really sucks if it's all on the publisher for that shit.

It does, and I'm glad he [Phil] was able to levy that at 2K in a professional manner.

You'd think that the cheaper DLC is, the more DLC that can be moved. I just can't imagine how I can get a quarter of the base game's value in one monster, and nearly half in 3 Hunters.

Turtle pls. I want this game to succeed purely because these guys made L4D but I hate these kind of practices. :/

Read the OP and linked post. The pricing is all up to 2K Games, the publisher. I have to wonder how hard they had to fight for allowing maps and modes to be free, but the concession might have been these absurd prices for the characters.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Right or wrong this reeks of damage control....the reason doesn't really matter IMO.

 

[M.W.]

This will be Brink levels of dead within a month.

Pretty much this.

 

[JNA]

Sorry Turtle Rock, but you're not getting my money with this BS.

 

[tci]

Getting the game for sure. The DLC will be up to how many hours I put into it. It's not like you guys don't waste money on f2p games anyway, right?

 

[Doczu]

Well, if you read the OP

Spoiler

Keep dreaming Arkk

, they are done with the content months in advance, and this was after being given a 4 month extension by 2K to get their intended content done. So DLC work starts as the pre-production team has nothing to do with polishing the game, and once they finish they get to work on the DLC while the game is in certification, manufacturing, and distribution.

I read the OP, but that doesn't change anything. What if your game is a massive flop,you don't publish the DLC and say fuck you to everyone who bought and hoped for that extra content? Of course it's silly to buy a game only for extra, post launch content, but i'm sure there would be a vocal group who would feel they were cheated.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Right or wrong this reeks of damage control....too late.

They were answering someone directly asking them. The whole point of that thread was someone bringing up a promise that TRS made when it came to the fan base:

https://www.turtlerockstudios.com/community/

We’re gamers, first and foremost. Like you.

We begin each project thinking about the games we wish someone would make. We daydream, and then we work to put those dreams in your hands.

You will do things with these games that we never dreamed of! We want to hear about how you’re using them, what you want more of. We want to show off the amazing things you do in each game and with each game.

We don’t see any difference between us, the gamers who made the game, and you, the gamers who play the game. You’ll find out that the things you love, we love. The things that frustrate you, frustrate us. We’re all in this together.

To make our games the best they can be, we need you. Your feedback, your participation. When you take the time to tell us what you think, we listen.

And we’ll do more than listen….

I think you're just projecting your personal displeasure of the situation on to what was actually being done. Shame that when there is some actual transparency (even going as far to say between the lines that 2K fucked us over on the pricing), people want to treat it as otherwise.

I read the OP, but that doesn't change anything. What if your game is a massive flop,you don't publish the DLC and say fuck you to everyone who bought and hoped for that extra content? Of course it's silly to buy a game only for extra, post launch content, but i'm sure there would be a vocal group who would feel they were cheated.

I never said that people solely by a game based on DLC.

Again, this is turning into an argument about Season Passes, which I agree with you on. But you originally argued against merely mentioning/announcing DLC content, which just doesn't make sense.

 

[Hasney]

I really think 2k are seeing how much they can get away with at the moment. NBA has their ridiculous VC, WWE has a season pass which so far has produced a single downloadable character in Paige, meanwhile they've released 2 DLC packs, one for WCW characters and one for moves that are outside the scope of the season pass while we still wait for the first meaningful release for that.

Now there's this with hilariously overpriced monsters. I understand that they're charging for them in such a way that means they feel they can release the maps for free, but I don't think 2k understands that people are only interested in the value proposition of what you actually attach to the price tag.

I commend them for not splitting the player base, but there has to come a point where you just need to take a step back and charge for your DLC sensibly.

 

[Mechazawa]

Done or not done, announcing DLC for your game before it comes out is even more shitty than day 1 DLC.

Why? Because they were transparent about what you'll be getting for the DLC instead of publishers waving this ethereal "season pass" cookie in front of your face despite the fact that they're aware of what their DLC roadmap is?

As little as I care about Evolve, they said it's content that's not planned to be finished until post release, it doesn't split up the community and all maps are free. That's pretty fucking innocuous, especially compared to most multiplayer DLC.

 

[BigTnaples]

Seems like a decent enough response to me. Unforgiving bunch...

 

[Dalibor_San]

Whether this is on Turtle Rock or 2K it honestly does not concern me as a consumer,I look out for myself as I'm working like them to earn my money and I will not take part in throwing it away for a Monster.($15!!!!)

The game seems very limited in content and I will have other more fulfilling games to play, maybe I'll pick up the GOTY edition,because I don't like this business practise.

 

[Haunted]

Sorry Turtle Rock, 2K blew it for you.

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

It's funny how every time Overkill throws out a new piece of DLC for Payday 2, I'll entertain the idea of opening my wallet for them. They push out new DLC every month or so. Sometimes it is totally free, sometimes it is paid. Between missions, weapon packs and a handful of other things (Courier DLC for example), there's usually a feeling of there being a good value proposition. They've really only released one weapon DLC that is game changing, the rest of it can be easily ignored.

Yet here... I have a hard time envisioning the cost-to-content ratio from Evolve's planned DLC. I think a part of it stems from the game already being a full priced game, which Payday 2 was not. There's no real 100% right way to do DLC, and Turtlerock is doing the right thing by fighting to make sure there's as little split in the playerbase as possible but... in a competitive game, being able to straight up have anything that another player can't is just a bad idea. And then straight up announcing such a massive amount of DLC ahead of time when there's already worries about the game's initially available content? That's not really alleviating anyone's fears.

Perhaps it is 2K's greed fueling this as Phil says, but I'm sorry to say that I think this game is just destined to hit the bottom early. How they try to climb their way back out is up to them.

 

[Pinko Marx]

Seems like a decent enough response to me. Unforgiving bunch...

The response is decent, but that doesn't change the absurd pricing.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

I really think 2k are seeing how much they can get away with at the moment. NBA has their ridiculous VC, WWE has a season pass which so far has produced a single downloadable character in Paige, meanwhile they've released 2 DLC packs, one for WCW characters and one for moves that are outside the scope of the season pass while we still wait for the first meaningful release for that.

Now there's this with hilariously overpriced monsters. I understand that they're charging for them in such a way that means they feel they can release the maps for free, but I don't think 2k understands that people are only interested in the value proposition of what you actually attach to the price tag.

I commend them for not splitting the player base, but there has to come a point where you just need to take a step back and charge for your DLC sensibly.

I wasn't even aware of the other stuff since I'm not big on the sports genre. It does seem 2K is being the new EA/Capcom in testing the waters in what they can do with DLC.

And you know the best part? TRS gets to be the scapegoat as they are the public face of the game.

 

[Sajjaja]

I'm happy with his response. DLC is a reality people still haven't accepted after an entire gen. Move the fuck on, guys. Pricing is high though.

 

[Wolfgang Jr]

I hope this POS dies a very quick death.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I'm happy with his response. DLC is a reality people still haven't accepted after an entire gen. Move the fuck on, guys. Pricing is high though.

I think the problem is more bad dlc pricing then the general concept of "dlc"

 

[Seiniyta]

The response is decent, but that doesn't change the absurd pricing.

Pricing is probably the one part Turtle Rock have no control over whatshowever. Even then I do find the reaction of players way too dramatic. Is it expensive? yes. Are you obliged to buy it? no.

 

[Radec]

Getting the game for sure. The DLC will be up to how many hours I put into it. It's not like you guys don't waste money on f2p games anyway, right?

Except f2p games doesn't have an entry fee of $60.

 

[Aztechnology]

 

[ArkkAngel007]

I'm happy with his response. DLC is a reality people still haven't accepted after an entire gen. Move the fuck on, guys. Pricing is high though.

Well, I think that's what is getting people frothing at the mouth more-so than most of the other things Phil addressed.

Well, that and E3 awards that somehow matter more than just a commercial blurb all of a sudden.

And I think people should reasonably demonstrate how that isn't right and not buy the DLC to send a message to 2K.

Edit: Do I PM mods directly or email somewhere to report shitposting? Been sick of it in a lot of threads (The Order/Evolve/Destiny) and not really having the patience for it in one of my own. Things like:

I hope this POS dies a very quick death.

I would think would be unacceptable.

 

[Doczu]

Again, this is turning into an argument about Season Passes, which I agree with you on. But you originally argued against merely mentioning/announcing DLC content, which just doesn't make sense.

IMO announcing a game, developing it, then announcing DLC even before the game comes out, and trying to persuade the public that the works on the game are finished and the work they do now is extra that should be extra paid by the consumers isn't just shitty. Ok, it's just shitty. If they worked and completed any of that stuff before the game went gold, that stuff should be in the game, not in extra paid DLC - period. They receive their payment for a finished product, and if they use that time to develop add-ons that could (in some form) be added during the development of the base game is scummy ass hell.
Think about it. You pay them for a game $60. But during the making of it they start working on stuff that will cost you (let's say) $15 later on. Part of that work was done during the development of the base game, so you pay them the full price for 80-90% of the content. 10% of the created stuuf will belong to you only when you pay that extra cash for the DLC.

 

[Carcetti]

I'm fine with much if not most DLC that comes out these days but seriously, Evolve's DLC policy is horrid. The preorder monster is the worst part as I don't preorder games. It means I'd miss third of the actual content of the game unless I fork a pile of cash in additition to the actual price.

 

[Pinko Marx]

Pricing is probably the one part Turtle Rock have no control over whatshowever. Even then I do find the reaction of players way too dramatic. Is it expensive? yes. Are you obliged to buy it? no.

Fan outcry is a good way to let companies know when they've fucked up. 2k has fucked up, and they ought to be informed of that.
It also might sway others to not give into this as well. The less people that are okay with this, the likelihood of something like this repeating is lessened. We need to combat shitty practices within this industry, and being loud and obnoxious about it is one way to do it.

 

[barneystuta83]

I need a chart, someone post a chart, please!

 

[Hasney]

Pricing is probably the one part Turtle Rock have no control over whatshowever. Even then I do find the reaction of players way too dramatic. Is it expensive? yes. Are you obliged to buy it? no.

No of course they're not obliged to buy it, but from what I've seen so far, the lack of monsters is what makes me look at it and wonder if it's worth $60. Especially when you factor in that one of those monsters is pre-order only and I won't pre-order until I know how the final game is in terms of issues and the like.

If monsters were $5 a pop, I'd be feeling better about it as the extra variety over a longer period of time with only a small extra outlay would be good since the monsters are the hook for me. A $60 product feels like the game with the season pass right now, so I may have to wait until I can obtain them for that combined price.

 

[tmespe]

This is the kind of game that could benefit greatly from some free dlc initially. Give people one free hunter or monster and create a lot of good will, expanding the user base and increasing the potential earnings of future dlc. I was somewhat interested in this game before the dlc plans, but now I will never buy it.

 

[m_dorian]

I dont know the guy but i think he is honest. Although i do not like the DLC scheme and the way it was presented in this product.

 

[DryvBy]

It's like they're holding a shotgun against Evolve's face and saying, "Okay guys. We're just going to kill it. Kill it dead!".

 

[tci]

Except f2p games doesn't have an entry fee of $60.

Sure, but how much have you used on it? A friend of mine have bought all skins in LoL for like $8k. The entry is cheap, but people have no problem wasting a few bucks here and there. It all adds up to even more expensive. It's just more hidden.

 

[Dictator93]

Since when is DLC worth jeopardizing a game? These publishers can be so clueless.

 

[Hasney]

Sure, but how much have you used on it? A friend of mine have bought all skins in LoL for like $8k. The entry is cheap, but people have no problem wasting a few bucks here and there. It all adds up to even more expensive. It's just more hidden.

Well yeah, but over a longer period of time, it matters very little.

I'm not sure how much I spent on TF2 in my over 1,000 hours with it, but I do know I never spent more than $10 a month.

 

[Big_Al]

I'm happy with his response. DLC is a reality people still haven't accepted after an entire gen. Move the fuck on, guys. Pricing is high though.

I've nothing really against DLC but these prices are taking the piss. I'd rather save my money and support someone like Tripwire with Killing Floor 2 who release a loooot of free content for their games as well as DLC which is mostly cosmetics and give players mod support ( with a few weapon packs here and there )

It just feels like 2K taking the piss here.

 

[markot]

Hm.

Why wouldnt you call the company Fraggle rock?

I guess I can worry about that another day.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

IMO announcing a game, developing it, then announcing DLC even before the game comes out, and trying to persuade the public that the works on the game are finished and the work they do now is extra that should be extra paid by the consumers isn't just shitty. Ok, it's just shitty. If they worked and completed any of that stuff before the game went gold, that stuff should be in the game, not in extra paid DLC - period. They receive their payment for a finished product, and if they use that time to develop add-ons that could (in some form) be added during the development of the base game is scummy ass hell.
Think about it. You pay them for a game $60. But during the making of it they start working on stuff that will cost you (let's say) $15 later on. Part of that work was done during the development of the base game, so you pay them the full price for 80-90% of the content. 10% of the created stuuf will belong to you only when you pay that extra cash for the DLC.

And I can tell you that you are ignorant and obviously didn't read the OP as they even outlined what happened specifically.

But to baby step you through it:

• Game is in pre-production. Various monsters and characters among other game elements are designed.
• Production begins. Models and mechanics are developed and tested thoroughly. Some make the cut, most don't.
• Due to budget, only so much content and man hours can be put into the game. This is all figured out well ahead due to long process of developing and testing each element. Sometimes more could have made it in (early certification) or too much (delays).
• Even with the established 3 Monsters, 12 Hunters, 4 modes, and 12 maps, the game had to be delayed from its late October 2014 release to late February 2015.
• Given that this is a multiplayer focused game, post support is expected and 2K is looking to monetize this aspect.
• Plans for DLC start up in production in regards to how they plan to structure it. TRS at this point wants to ensure player base isn't segmented and pushes for free essential content such as maps and modes. They get it with the caveat that 2K charges for non-essential content such as characters and cosmetics.
• As devs finish their job on the base game, they move on to DLC that is operating on a different budget, even if content has its origins at some point in the original production and budget.
• Evolve goes into certification months ahead of manufacturing and distribution deadlines. During this time, content can NOT be added to the game, but testing and polishing may continue. Rest of production team not on bug squashing is put on DLC detail. 2K begins to market what DLC is outlined thus far and pushing for enough things to be down the pipe to formulate a Season Pass.
• Game passes certification aka 'Goes Gold' and is sent off for manufacturing and distribution. A contingent is still working on bugs and networking in preparation for launch and beyond. DLC plans are announced with 2K's pricing model.
• Game launches in February, likely with a Day 1 patch. TRS continues to work to support the game as well as get DLC out so they still have a job while 2K makes money on what they put in to TRS.

That's the reality.

By all means, 2K (not TRS) should be getting all this shit and more for the pricing model and DLC. But work is going to continue at all stages and after the game's development, and 2K is going to capitalize on it. Announcing the DLC after the fact doesn't change it, and just leaves people with an I.O.U. on post-game support that most people don't seem patient enough to wait on news for.

Edit: Not meaning to try and come off condescending. Just seems odd to criticize an aspect of development and marketing when not having even a base understanding of it. Don't blame you as it isn't fun stuff and can further tint the cynical lens, but there comes to be a point where the ignorance doesn't hold up.

 

[Manners]

GOTY edition it is for me then.

 

[Laughing Banana]

No matter what they say, the prices that they ask for the DLC contents are rather preposterous though.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

And I can tell you that you are ignorant and obviously didn't read the OP as they even outlined what happened specifically.

But to baby step you through it:

That's the reality.

So you're saying I should wait for the GoTY edition? I mean Bloodborne comes out the same month. Thanks for helping me decide to cancel my preorder.

 

[Seanspeed]

Done or not done, announcing DLC for your game before it comes out is even more shitty than day 1 DLC.

No, its not. There's nothing wrong with it.

 

[dead monkey uk]

This will be Brink levels of dead within a month.

Would not go that far, not sure the Brink community lasted a month. The more I hear about Evolve the less interest I have in it, it also sounds like the base game is lacking enough content to keep players interested, but we will not know until release.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

So you're saying I should wait for the GoTY edition? I mean Bloodborne comes out the same month. Thanks for helping me decide to cancel my preorder.

I don't understand. I mean, if your concern is purely cost, then yeah a GOTY edition (if there is one, who knows) is probably a good bet providing the community is still there. I might be waiting that long myself as I'm not getting the game at launch.

Otherwise...I don't see how the development process is much different than any other game with DLC. I'm sure that if there's Bloodborne DLC like there was with Dark Souls I&II, they're likely already in the early stages of working on it.