Support NeoGAF

[Resident_UA]

How do YOU know this. Everything that has come so far from the new government seems like a disorganized mess. Yet you think they have the armed forces area all sorted out? Okay.

I'm Ukrainian (although I don't live there), I've been talking to my friends over the past few months, I've been watching Ukrainian news over the past few months, I know people they've been to military, I've seen latest pools showing support for a new government, etc. Do you need more reasons?

 

[Resident_UA]

The strongest economic regions are in eastern Ukraine, the Pro- EU are the poorest. This will hurt.

Yes, but strong regions are run by oligarchs who don't want anything to do with Russia. I would be shocked if Russia took anything but Crimea.

 

[dolemite]

Belarus is surprisingly quiet about all of this.

 

[delirium]

Ice cold, lol....

What intelligence failure?

 

[leroidys]

Belarus is surprisingly quiet about all of this.

Belarus is always quiet. They are the Clarence Thomas of Europe.

 

[Resident_UA]

Belarus is surprisingly quiet about all of this.

They always pretend revolutions don't happen.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Unambiguously invading a sovereign country is probably not the best way to do this, brah

When the Russians transport 2000 soldiers to their own military base, you call this an "invasion"? Then what are the 50.000 US soldiers in Germany?

It's too late to run referendum when Ukraine was invaded.

Yes, but because they have a fleet does not mean they can do whatever they want. They are obligated to report on any army movement. And they have been breaking this obligation all day today.

Source?

That is still a large minority that want nothing to do Russia. And don't forget that there are entire areas of Crimea where ethnic Russians are in the minority. Would these regions stay as part of Ukraine or just have to grin and bear it? A needless recipe for ethnic conflict.

So the Russian population should "grin and bear it"? Someone has to. And in a democracy it's usually not the majority of people.

 

[Resident_UA]

Source?

For rules of having a foreign army base?!!! Just google it. It's common sense.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

Are people being serious when they say the EU should act? It's NATO's responsibilty to deal with Russia - in fact that was why it was originally created.

 

[Dead Man]

It's like when you meet Irish American or Italian American... Same idea.

It is an ethnicity just like German and Dutch. There is even different terms for it in Russian, русский - ethnically Russian, российский - nationally Russian.

Cheers.

I think as someone with no particular ethnic identity it will always be a bit weird.

 

[Resident_UA]

So the Russian population should "grin and bear it"? Someone has to. And in a democracy it's usually not the majority of people.

"grin and bear it" WHAT?!!! They are all Ukrainian citizens!

 

[Tenrius]

I'm Ukrainian (although I don't live there), I've been talking to my friends over the past few months, I've been watching Ukrainian news over the past few months, I know people they've been to military, I've seen latest pools showing support for a new government, etc. Do you need more reasons?

That's basically anecdotal evidence. I wouldn't use that in a discussion at all, let alone as an argument.

 

[AlimNassor]

whats preventing that from happening though? Genuine curiousity

Because it's still hurting us, and costs money. It's the last resort before a war.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

For rules of having a foreign army base?!!! Just google it. It's common sense.

You are making stuff up. There are treaties between both countries, and you have no idea what's in there, but yet you are saying they are violating those treaties all day.

 

[maquiladora]

What intelligence failure?

02.27.14

A massive military exercise on the border of Ukraine has sparked panicked talk of a Russian invasion. Don’t worry, American intelligence sources say.

U.S. intelligence estimates conclude that Russia has no intention of invading Ukraine.

http://thedailynewsreport.com/2014/02/27/commentary/u-s-intel-no-russian-invasion/#.UxFCboWs-RM

 

[Resident_UA]

That's basically anecdotal evidence. I wouldn't use that in a discussion at all, let alone as an argument.

Read this I guess... I mean it's common sense for most Ukrainians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Ukraine

 

[Sviatoslav]

I'm Ukrainian (although I don't live there), I've been talking to my friends over the past few months, I've been watching Ukrainian news over the past few months, I know people they've been to military, I've seen latest pools showing support for a new government, etc. Do you need more reasons?

So you have the impression that the new government is a tightly run ship? Just look at how they cancelled the regional language law and now after criticism are scrambling to draft up a new one. Frankly they give the impression that they have no idea what they're doing.

 

[Dead Man]

So the Russian population should "grin and bear it"? Someone has to. And in a democracy it's usually not the majority of people.

The Ukrainians should grin and bear being in the Ukraine? What a hardship.

 

[KingK]

Before all of this shit hit the fan in Ukraine, I didn't know Crimea was an actual place outside of Fire Emblem. That said, a snowy, northern nation known for bigoted policies and a power hungry madman as their leader invading Crimea sounds like the plot to Path of Radiance.

 

[Rikkun]

EU has little war-power. Trying to let go Nuclear power is for the best, a single tiny mistake could lead to years of fear. If someone can try and stop "Number 2 danger", it's only "Number 1 danger", and it looks like Obama can't/won't.

So yeah, let's see.

 

[antonz]

You are making stuff up. There are treaties between both countries, and you have no idea what's in there, but yet you are saying they are violating those treaties all day.

The Russian Treaty with the Ukraine regarding the Naval base specifically says Russian Forces are permitted on the base and that is the extent of it. If they are to leave the base they must seek approval from the Ukrainian Government.

 

[Resident_UA]

You are making stuff up. There are treaties between both countries, and you have no idea what's in there, but yet you are saying they are violating those treaties all day.

Read incidents with Ukraine section I guess. Do you really think that the army can do whatever it wants on foreign territory?!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet

 

[leroidys]

When the Russians transport 2000 soldiers to their own military base, you call this an "invasion"? Then what are the 50.000 US soldiers in Germany?



Source?



So the Russian population should "grin and bear it"? Someone has to. And in a democracy it's usually not the majority of people.

What you are describing is not Democracy but the Tyranny of the Majority.

Crimea already has it's own autonomous government, let alone representation in the Ukrainian nation. They have not been asked to "grin and bear it".

Before all of this shit hit the fan in Ukraine, I didn't know Crimea was an actual place outside of Fire Emblem. That said, a snowy, northern nation known for bigoted policies and a power hungry madman as their leader invading Crimea sounds like the plot to Path of Radiance.

Crimea has a long and fascinating history. Long ago it was Tauride.

 

[jimi_dini]

Look, I'm not defending US, but what you said before was clearly not true.

What did I say, that was not true?

The post, that I replied to, was jokingly asking about going to war with Russia because of Crimea - which is in Ukraine. I wrote, that we could talk about that as soon as Russia bombs weddings + kills children. Which was of course about the current situation in Ukraine and I haven't heard of any newsreport stating that they did something like that.

Well this sort of thing is never clear cut. Russia hasn't attempted to sustain its control over any area besides Crimea. I wouldn't call this an invasion yet.

People don't seem to know that around 70% of Russia's black sea fleet infrastructure is actually on Crimea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet

In 2010 the arrangement was extended for 25 years.

 

[ultratruman]

http://thedailynewsreport.com/2014/02/27/commentary/u-s-intel-no-russian-invasion/#.UxFCboWs-RM

Well this sort of thing is never clear cut. Russia hasn't attempted to sustain its control over any area besides Crimea. I wouldn't call this an invasion yet.

 

[luckygodzilla]

It would certainly screw both short term (which hopefully means nothing too drastic is going to happen), Russia would be able to reroute their exports eventually though. That would basically leave eastern europe the worst off.

Yeah well I do wish Russia luck with finding a market as energy hungry as Europe. Though you can bet your ass that if Russia turns off the valve, Congress is going to rush that bill allowing us to export natural gas faster than you can blink.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

"grin and bear it" WHAT?!!! They are all Ukrainian citizens!

If a majority of those Ukrainian citiziens decides in a democratic referendum that they want to be part of Russia, then that's what the minority has to do. This is how democracy works.

The Russian Treaty with the Ukraine regarding the Naval base specifically says Russian Forces are permitted on the base and that is the extent of it. If they are to leave the base they must seek approval from the Ukrainian Government.

I asked for a source. Where is your source? Can you point me to a quote of the treaty?

 

[dolemite]

The Ukrainians should grin and bear being in the Ukraine? What a hardship.

Judging from the number of revolutions they had over the past decade, the majority of the Ukrainians want to be in the EU, not Ukraine.

 

[kaiju]

So Russia is basically breaking the The Budapest Memorandum treaty? This could get ugly.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ukraine._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

 

[Resident_UA]

So you have the impression that the new government is a tightly run ship? Just look at how they cancelled the regional language law and now after criticism are scrambling to draft up a new one. Frankly they give the impression that they have no idea what they're doing.

With regards to Crimea I would agree with you. They just didn't expect that people there would give a shit (they never did).

But they have very strong support of western and central Ukraine (about 65% of population). And Eastern Ukraine is heavily controlled by oligarchs who just don't care who's president.

 

[Dead Man]

Judging from the number of revolutions they had over the past decade, the majority of the Ukrainians want to be in the EU, not Ukraine.

You mean they want Ukraine to be in the EU? And yeah, that is sort of tangentially my point. Crimea has not had any rights taken away, they are semi autonomous, I'm not sure what they are grinning and bearing.

If a majority of those Ukrainian citiziens decides in a democratic referendum that they want to be part of Russia, then that's what the minority has to do. This is how democracy works.

No, it's not. It's how the tyranny of the majority works. Unfettered direct democracy COULD work that way, but again, if that is all it took to secede, then the world will be very messy very quickly.

 

[ultratruman]

EU has little war-power. Trying to let go Nuclear power is for the best, a single tiny mistake could lead to years of fear. If someone can try and stop "Number 2 danger", it's only "Number 1 danger", and it looks like Obama can't/won't.

So yeah, let's see.

France and UK have nuclear arsenals, and NATO has its own supply.

 

[Liha]

How does this have any bearing on Russia invading Ukraine? WTF are you talking about?

The problem is that many people think there is a good (EU + US) and dark (russia) side but the truth is that human rights are not important for us. We all are only interested in power and money.

 

[commedieu]

The fact that Russia supplies 40% of all the oil and gas that the EU uses. Would completely send oil prices sky-high in Western Europe, not to mention send their stock markets down as well. In a time of austerity and little economic growth, are you willing to risk another small recession for Ukraine/Crimea?

Not to say it doesn't matter, but it's the truth. Everyone acts in their self interests. Couple with the fact that Russia could militarily defeat almost all of Europe, you'd risk antagonizing them further. People do desperate things when they're in trouble.

This is sort of what I've gathered, through my general understanding. Its not realistic to threaten sanctions on Russia. And we will find out if it is really worth a recession to the US/EU + possible further military trouble. Its all a lot of tough talk, but in reality, politics and diplomacy rule the roost. Which is why I see no reason for Putin to stop. He knows the breaking point of the USA/EU is based on what would seem to be a dire need to react. That point is very far away.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

When the Russians transport 2000 soldiers to their own military base, you call this an "invasion"?

I wonder what the reaction would be if 5,000 US troops along with artillery, attack helicopters and so on were moved into Guantanamo Bay before shifting out into Cuban territory, blocking roads and taking over institutions.

No invasion here, no sir.

 

[Resident_UA]

If a majority of those Ukrainian citiziens decides in a democratic referendum that they want to be part of Russia, then that's what the minority has to do. This is how democracy works.

OK. But that's not what's discussed here. Did you read the thread title?

 

[Fury Sense]

So are we looking at appeasement?

 

[antonz]

Another reason this is happening is because The Ukraine prior to Putins puppet getting power had informed Russia they were no longer welcome after 2017 at Sevastopol when the lease was up.

The Ukraine was ready to finally push out the Russian military completely. Then Puppet came in and cancelled the Expulsion of Russian forces. With the puppet being removed Russia figures the explusion will be back

 

[Resident_UA]

Judging from the number of revolutions they had over the past decade, the majority of the Ukrainians want to be in the EU, not Ukraine.

Do you know what EU is?! You can't just "join" EU as a citizen

 

[leroidys]

People don't seem to know that around 70% of Russia's black sea fleet is actually stationed in Crimea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet

Actually every single person in this thread knows that.

The problem is that many people think there is a good (EU + US) and dark (russia) side but the truth is that human rights are not important for us. We all are only interested in power and money.

Certainly, I am fully aware of the crimes that America has committed over it's history and into the present.

Sometimes, drawing moral equivalencies is even appropriate.

Saying that America is worse than Russia though is sheer idiocy. I wish more people in here have actually lived in Russia.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

OK. But that's not what's discussed here. Did you read the thread title?

This is exactly what needs to be discussed here. This was even proposed in the Crimean parliament as I recall from today.

 

[luckygodzilla]

What did I say, that was not true?

The post, that I replied to, was jokingly asking about going to war with Russia because of Crimea - which is in Ukraine. I wrote, that we could talk about that as soon as Russia bombs weddings + kills children. Which was of course about the current situation in Ukraine and I haven't heard of any newsreport stating that they did something like that.

While you do make very valid reports, I'd also like to point you toward what the human rights watch found during the Georgian conflict.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2008/08/12/russiageorgia-investigate-civilian-deaths

You can bet that if fighting breaks out, civilian casualties isn't going to be that large of a concern for Russian forces.

 

[mavs]

If a majority of those Ukrainian citiziens decides in a democratic referendum that they want to be part of Russia, then that's what the minority has to do. This is how democracy works.

Under what authority? That's not a universal characteristic of democracies.

 

[dolemite]

I wonder what the reaction would be if 5,000 US troops along with artillery, attack helicopters and so on were moved into Guantanamo Bay before shifting out into Cuban territory, blocking roads and taking over institutions.

No invasion here, no sir.

The Cubans would probably cheer.

 

[ultratruman]

People don't seem to know that around 70% of Russia's black sea fleet infrastructure is actually on Crimea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet

In 2010 the arrangement was extended for 25 years.

Exactly, in fact the port of Sevastopol is the only port deep enough in the Black Sea to dock Russia's largest warships in the region. And yeah, it was due to expire but was quickly extended until 2045 or something ridiculous by Yanukovych when he got back into power. There was a lot of uprest about that.

 

[Resident_UA]

This is exactly what needs to be discussed here. This was even proposed in the Crimean parliament as I recall from today.

How can you have a referendum in the area that was invaded by the foreign country?

 

[kess]

When the Russians transport 2000 soldiers to their own military base, you call this an "invasion"? Then what are the 50.000 US soldiers in Germany?

Your example is not analogous at all. The US has not cut off telephony services, nor are American politicians politicking for annexation of Germany, or staging military exercises across the German border.

But I suppose those military exercises were just friendly-like

 

[delirium]

http://thedailynewsreport.com/2014/02/27/commentary/u-s-intel-no-russian-invasion/#.UxFCboWs-RM

WTF, why did this guy used a source that was another article that he wrote himself.

Beside's that, anonymous senior intelligence officer means nothing in the context of things. He does not have all the intelligence report coming in. If he is real, he only has stuff that he knows about, nothing else.

 

[ultratruman]

Your example is not analogous at all. The US has not cut off telephony services, nor are American politicians politicking for annexation of Germany, or staging military exercises across the German border.

But I suppose those military exercises were just friendly-like

It's worse than that, they're seizing airports and moving to disarm the Ukranian military in the region.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

How can you have a referendum in the area that was invaded by the foreign country?

Can you provide proof for your invasion claims? And no, pictures/videos of Ukrainian militas who are pro-Russia or troop movements from Russia to their own military bases are certainly not proof of an invasion.

Additionally, such a referendum can certainly be held under circumstances dictated by the UN. Would you then still be against a democratic referendum?