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Universal Apps including Rise of the Tomb Raider have limitations on Windows Store

Trup1aya

Member
You're actually falling into a tremendous contradiction.

You yourself have said that Microsoft is willing to sacrifice Quantum Break sales in exchange for getting some new users in their new store.

Then I ask you something; what are those sacrificed sales if you do not accept that they are losing sales from people like me?

So because they want users into their store, they should reasonably expect every PC gamer to purchase QB from there store? I'm not sure that's how sales projections work.

To lose your sale, they will have had to have earned it. Which they never have, since there has never existed a version that you are willing to purchase..

They have failed to gain your sale. But a sale to you is not one that they could ever have counted on.

By taking a previous Xbox Exclusive and making it available on Win10, they are gaining sales from people who other wise would not have purchased the only other previous existing version.
 

MaLDo

Member
So because they want users into their store, they should reasonably expect every PC gamer to purchase QB from there store? I'm not sure that's hoe sales projections work.

No. Because they know they need to sacrifice sales to push their store they know they are losing my purchase. The one can't understand the situation is you ;)

What is not a fact is that their sacrifice will be worth it. They are shitting on Remedy on the way.
 

JaggedSac

Member
But I bought several Microsoft Studios produced games like

Ori and the blind forest
Deadlight
Dust: An Elysian Tail
Fable - The Lost Chapters
Fable Anniversary
Halo: Spartan Assault
Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet
State of Decay
Ms. Splosion Man
Pinball FX2 tables
Mark of the Ninja

or Halo, Halo 2 or Gears of Wars years ago so I can't see your logic.

Wow, you seem like a big MS fan. Batting 100% on buying their recent games it seems.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
So because they want users into their store, they should reasonably expect every PC gamer to purchase QB from there store? I'm not sure that's hoe sales projections work.

I feel more bad for the developers that this is used as a store product leverage, with how the store is in it's current 'vision/state', rather than the potential to maximize sales on the largest gaming platform.

I am sure they were compensated, but creative people still like those gold records on the wall, platinum is even better.
 

JaggedSac

Member
I feel more bad for the developers that this is used as a store product leverage, with how the store is in it's current 'vision/state', rather than the potential to maximize sales on the largest gaming platform.

I am sure they were compensated, but creative people still like those gold records on the wall, platinum is even better.

Platinum floppy disks you mean.


Any other ms game on pc that I missed?

Think you got them all. You could try Wikipedia if you haven't already.
 

wazoo

Member
If those games do not support g-sync in any form, they will not get my money.

Stutter and bad framerate sync are things of the past that should be banished.

I have nothing pro-steam or anti-Wstore, but if Nintendo plans to sell us the whole Xone experience in its entire crapiness, please die like GFWL did before.
 

Synth

Member
You're actually falling into a tremendous contradiction.

You yourself have said that Microsoft is willing to sacrifice Quantum Break sales in exchange for getting some new users in their new store.

Then I ask you something; what are those sacrificed sales if you do not accept that they are losing sales from people like me?

Are you talking about this here?

You weren't buying it in either situation. You would only be buying it if a third currently non-existent scenario occurred. So they didn't lose your sale... they could potentially gain it if they do what you want. They most likely know this though (well, not you specifically), and have decided against it anyway because the sale of the game itself isn't the highest priority (similarly, they're not putting it on PS4 to reach all those "potentially lost sales" either).

I'm not seeing the contradiction. I said they don't gain you sale if they don't put it on Steam.. but they didn't lose it, because it needs to be on Steam (or wherever else) for them to have you as a customer in the first place. The quotes around the potentially lost sales for PS4 are meant to imply that I don't consider those lost either, in case I'm not being clear.

Um no, lol.

By conveniently leaving out the Store, you make it sound like he has a beef with it being on Windows 10 only, which most PC gamers do not give a stink about. They ARE excited about DX12 and the features it promises on paper, thus the free upgrade to 10 is incentive for them to take advantage of the new games coming out that will be developed with DX12 moving forward.

He would throw money at it if it was not locked behind a wall like it is Angry Birds. You know, like 99% of all PC games.

If that's how it read, then fair enough... pretend I said Windows Store specifically then. I didn't intend or deliberately attempt to misrepresent his position though. I'm addressing him directly on the grounds of it not being on Steam being the consistent element of him not purchasing it, so the technicality of me writing Windows 10 instead of Windows Store is wholly unimportant (and just somewhat of a holdover from how the games are often announced as Xbox One + Windows 10). I don't think this is at all worth starting a new argument branch over.
 

Trup1aya

Member
No. Because they know they need to sacrifice sales to push their store they know they are losing my purchase. The one can't understand the situation is you ;)

What is not a fact is that their sacrifice will be worth it. They are shitting on Remedy on the way.

They are not losing your sale. They never had it.

Previously only Xbox owners were able to by it. Now Xbox owners and Win10 store users can buy it. They added to the sales potential.

It's true that they aren't maximizing their sales, but they aren't losing sales. Can't lose sales of something that doesn't exist. By that logic, they are losing sales on the ps4 too...
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
i never expected the windows store games to be 100% amazing right out the gate,, like with all software and platforms they will have to learn.

ill buy something when something amazing arrives and its cheaper than on steam.edit: also to make things universal, there is going to be tradeoffs and standardisation. I doubt this will happen without making PC enthusiasts trumpet bad words
 

Spirited

Mine is pretty and pink
The backslash will not occur because it doesn't exist in the first place. Amirite?


Really good article btw.

Everything that's wrong now will be fixed so go buy Quantum Break before everything is fixed and have hope they fix the problems :D

Be positive, come on!
Why wouldn't you support a new player in the PC space when we have a Steam monopoly that needs to be fixed :)

This is sarcasm. Used as some people in the thread seems to not be okay with some of you guys not buying the game because of it's platform.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Actually not a great article by Ars standards. Mostly used another person's article as a source and twitter responses.

You do not need to even read past the headline to nod in agreement.

I hope more mainstream sites pick up and do articles on this. I will not hold my breath sooner rather than later however with the popular sites.
 

s_mirage

Member
I didn't think MS would blow it again but boy was I wrong.

It continues to amaze me just how tone deaf MS are with regards to the PC gaming market. Most PC gamers tend to be quite savvy, and will see through shenanigans like this.

Once again MS will likely flounder in the PC gaming space because they can't just release games like everyone else. No, they have to try to squash the competition and take all the money by any means necessary, and to hell with the consumer.
 

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Genera...up-Ashes-Singularity-DX12-and-Microsoft-Store

Upon seeing this link it seems ms is running some kind of propietary software for all games that go through their dx12 windows 10 store meaning it might be causing the issues?

"Microsoft is pushing DX12 games (and maybe not just those sold in the app store) to render through a standardized pipeline that uses the Windows compositing engine."

Also all this seems similar to microsofts old strategy of embrace, extend and extinguish or rather they start causing issues once they gain enough userbase. Thankfully vulkan is there

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish

Someone correct me if I'm wrong
 

Rembrandt

Banned
So because they want users into their store, they should reasonably expect every PC gamer to purchase QB from there store? I'm not sure that's how sales projections work.

I remember one company doing this... I can't think of their name but it helped launch their store... hm
 

JaggedSac

Member
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Genera...up-Ashes-Singularity-DX12-and-Microsoft-Store

Upon seeing this link it seems ms is running some kind of propietary software for all games that go through their dx12 windows 10 store meaning it might be causing the issues?

"Microsoft is pushing DX12 games (and maybe not just those sold in the app store) to render through a standardized pipeline that uses the Windows compositing engine."

Also all this seems similar to microsofts old strategy of embrace, extend and extinguish or rather they start causing issues once they gain enough userbase. Thankfully vulkan is there

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish

Someone correct me if I'm wrong

What did they embrace, what did they extend, and what are they extinguishing? Bear in mind DirectX has been around for over 20 years.
 
Actually not a great article by Ars standards. Mostly used another person's article as a source and twitter responses.

Ars "standards"? I actually do like their general articles, but their gaming coverage is a flaming dumpster fire. I mean Ars Gaming was once the stomping grounds of Ben "Xbox One always-online DRM is perfectly OK, there is no backlash, Sony is going to do it too" Kuchera, they couldn't possibly have a worse reputation if they were Polygon. Which is, come to think of it, where Kuchera went after he left Ars.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Ars "standards"? I actually do like their general articles, but their gaming coverage is a flaming dumpster fire. I mean Ars Gaming was once the stomping grounds of Ben "Xbox One always-online DRM is perfectly OK, there is no backlash, Sony is going to do it too" Kuchera, they couldn't possibly have a worse reputation if they were Polygon. Which is, come to think of it, where Kuchera went after he left Ars.

Didn't know there was such a thing as "Ars Gaming".
 
What did they embrace, what did they extend, and what are they extinguishing? Bear in mind DirectX has been around for over 20 years.

Well to me it was odd that simple features like injectors and overlays like fraps can't be used through games in the 10 store when they worked in GFWL. I chalked this up to the UWP but that article gave a lot of info directed as to why those things didn't work.

I said it was similar since MS was happy enough with their xbox platform and left the pc alone for quite some time since they were satisfied with their performance in the console space and could completely overlook PC. Flash back to today and they aren't happy with a console alone they want to push windows 10 on everything but the main issue there are other distributors they have to compete with. So the easiest thing to do would be to capitalize on having windows across many devices and implementing a public standard that is the windows 10 store with dx12 that games require. The public standard is what I quoted earlier or

"Microsoft is pushing DX12 games (and maybe not just those sold in the app store) to render through a standardized pipeline that uses the Windows compositing engine. In fact, from what I can tell, any game that is sold through the Windows App Store will be required to do so."

Once they have enough users or games could they MIGHT start affecting other competitors indirectly that aren't on the windows store.

Also the author chips in a few of his opinions: "Based on a couple of talks I have had, it seems like that Microsoft would like to see that capability “owned” by the operating system as well, which would make sense if games use the unified compositing pipeline that MS would like them too."


I suppose we aren't in the extend phases but it sure feels like they are trying. Otherwise they would have just released games like any other competitor though you could also argue they are working on it and that it's the nature of UWP. Yes MS could turn around and do none of these things in the end so this is just speculation but I don't exactly trust them 100%.
 
PC games as a closed system with no modding, etc, etc, would be terrible compared to what we have now! This sounds like exactly the kind of PC gaming-destroying, corporate-pushed system that would be disastrous for this industry if it takes off on computers, so it can't be allowed to. That's all really bad stuff. And on top of that, borderless fullscreen only is like the worst idea ever for computer games, for performance, for people with multiple videocards and/or multiple monitors, etc.

So yeah, here's hoping this is the next Games for Windows Live in terms of success. I like some things about Microsoft, such as their operating systems, but they cannot be allowed to destroy the open format system that makes PC gaming great.
 

wazoo

Member
MS is doing MS all over again, chasing this imaginary mobile market that could be on windows. They did it with the terrible touch oriented UI of Windows 8. Now, they are doing it trying to sell hardcore PC games to a crowd that would prefer not benefit from existing PC advantages (like overlays or gsync). Deal with it, this crowd is non existant.
 

dr_rus

Member
Well RoTR itself certainly can... I have no idea what the app container on the XB1 version looks like behind the scenes... but it's certainly not a case of a game only a PC can run, because not only a PC does.

The thing here is, we'd likely never know that an XB1 release for a full retail game is a UWA, as it's hardly something you'd put on a box. We know on PC because they tell us these things in order to clearly differentiate the apps from standard Win32 apps. MS constantly says however that UWAs are making the porting of games between the platforms easier, and there are a lot of upcoming games being produced for both platforms concurrently with the Windows 10 version being confirmed as a UWA, so I don't really understand the logic in suggesting that MS is going to extreme lengths to lie about the porting benefits (typically at developer focused conferences no less), when there'd be very little benefit in doing so.

The main point however being that there are no games so far as UWAs that are logically out of scope for an Xbox One, so "games that can be run only on PC" simply isn't a use case that applies to anything right now. You can have a super high end game like RoTR or Fable Legends, but it'll always be viable as an Xbox One game as well (as long as this gen lasts at least). At this point the onus of proof would really be to show that an Xbox One can't (and definitely doesn't) run code that resembles the Windows 10 version of the same game. Because in absence of that, MS is basically the best source of the benefits

So the short version: it doesn't and thus there is no benefit of having the game in this container. And I fully expect that most if not all AAA WinStore games will follow the same road.
 

Synth

Member
So the short version: it doesn't and thus there is no benefit of having the game in this container. And I fully expect that most if not all AAA WinStore games will follow the same road.

No. The short version is:

We don't know what does or doesn't, but MS says universal apps are providing cross platform experiences for games like Fable Legends. In the absence of anything that suggests this not to be true, then the benefit is logically what they say it is.

This is one of the only times on this forum I have ever seen what would be the "official source" on the subject disregarded in favor of "I can't see inside my Xbox One, and so it's obviously nothing like UWA on Windows 10".
 
It is truly the end of days.

Well I'm concerned with the future of the platform I love instead of throwing sarcastic one liners. Besides I thought that wasn't allowed here otherwise half of my posts here would be sarcastic one liners on topics I don't even care for.
 

LordRaptor

Member
We don't know what does or doesn't, but MS says universal apps are providing cross platform experiences for games like Fable Legends. In the absence of anything that suggests this not to be true, then the benefit is logically what they say it is.

An application being sandboxed has nothing to do with whether it has access to Live APIs or not. We had a stack of games all accessing Live APIs last gen, it was called for GFWL.

When UWAs release on the Xbox One, then you'll have your evidence that UWAs are not suitable for traditional Xbox One games, because the games you'll see released there as UWAs are going to be XBLA / XBLIG level titles.
 

Synth

Member
An application being sandboxed has nothing to do with whether it has access to Live APIs or not. We had a stack of games all accessing Live APIs last gen, it was called for GFWL.

When UWAs release on the Xbox One, then you'll have your evidence that UWAs are not suitable for traditional Xbox One games, because the games you'll see released there as UWAs are going to be XBLA / XBLIG level titles.

The applications being sandboxed or not is unimportant. This isn't a discussion on "can it connect to Live"... there are webpages that can do that, and a sandboxed Win32 application is hardly going to automatically become mobile-ready. This is a discussion about platform commonalities between devices, much like how even before UWAs a Windows Phone port of an app made it very likely for a Windows 8 version of an app to also exist, because the work porting between the two is dramatically smaller than the work involved in getting the app from Android of iOS to either Windows platform in the first place.

What we know of the Xbox One's implementation of Windows Apps, is that there are apps that can run alongside an Xbox game. These apps live in an area partitioned off from the rest of the system that's running the main game, and are limited in the resources they can draw from the console (for obvious reasons). So if we ignore the 3rd intermediary OS that apparently is responsible for putting it all together, we're left with two areas of the system that we'll call game and app. Game gets 90% of the system resources (give or take) and app gets the remaining 10%. Now, here's the bit that's pretty important. If I create a super simple game like Threes, that can well enough live within the app partition of the console (and can be snapped, suspended etc whilst Halo 5 is being played)... what would be required to then have that exact same game run in the game partition? Would this require the equivalent of a full port to a completely new platform, or would it be mostly the same code, but running in the less restricted environment? The latter seems far more logical, as the former suggests that other than Win32 and UWP (extended from WinRT), MS has created a third and completely unrelated development platform for Xbox One specific games. Considering the push for platform unification predates both the Xbox One and Windows 10, that they advised developers waiting for ID@XBOX (which would include those creating gaming experiences that would live firmly in the 'game' partition of the system) that developing for the similar Windows 8 (WinRT) platform was the best way to get a headstart on Xbox One development, and that their Windows development platform is evidently capable to running software that is demanding on the hardware (such as RoTR, Fable Legends, Quantum Break, etc)... what purpose would there be to use a completely separate implementation between the two sections? Assuming they're not completely different implementations... that would mean that the reverse also makes a lot of sense... that an app written for the Xbox's game partition would transfer painlessly to the app partition, were it not for the resource limitation placed upon them. This particular scenario would then logically be... a UWA running on Windows 10.

I find it pretty amusing actually, how when discussing Windows 10 applications, people are so quick to proclaim that they essentially "turn your PC into a console"... but the despite MS' claims that the unified platform makes ports between the two easier (and specifically uses real Xbox games as examples, not just something like Netflix), the idea that the platform they built for this purpose on Windows at all resembles the platform they built for their console is completely unacceptable... and the deduction to be made is that they're simply lying, and nothing is any easier than it's ever been previously. Why would they choose for it not to be?, is the question that you should really be asking yourself here.
 

LordRaptor

Member
The applications being sandboxed or not is unimportant.

It's not actually.

It's the entire crux of why UWAs are limited, why those limitations are unlikely to be removed, and why the UWA format is not a sensible choice for 'high performance' titles.
 

JaggedSac

Member
It's not actually.

It's the entire crux of why UWAs are limited, why those limitations are unlikely to be removed, and why the UWA format is not a sensible choice for 'high performance' titles.

I believe he was talking about the discussion related to Bone games being UWAs specifically with that statement.
 

LordRaptor

Member
I believe he was talking about the discussion related to Bone games being UWAs specifically with that statement.

The only way that would be relevant - because I hope we can all agree that traditional Xbox One games are not being developed as UWAs, they are being developed as Xbox One games using an Xbox One development kit - would be if Xbox One UWA 'ports' are actually Xbox One titles wrapped in an UWA Xbox One emulator wrapper.

Given the late announcement of the PC version and its recommended specifications, I would concede that MS have developed an Xbox One emulator for Windows is a possibility.

e: stealth Gears release and Gears recommended specs is a +1 to maybe this is whats actually going on.
 

MUnited83

For you.
No. The short version is:

We don't know what does or doesn't, but MS says universal apps are providing cross platform experiences for games like Fable Legends. In the absence of anything that suggests this not to be true, then the benefit is logically what they say it is.

This is one of the only times on this forum I have ever seen what would be the "official source" on the subject disregarded in favor of "I can't see inside my Xbox One, and so it's obviously nothing like UWA on Windows 10".
It isn't true. Cross platform experiences dont need UWA to work , holy shit.
 

LordRaptor

Member
Nobody says that they "need" UWA to work. MS is saying it makes it "easier" between Xbox One and Windows 10. Holy shit.

Which makes your choice of Fable Legends being a proof of that bizarre, because Fable Legends is an Unreal Engine 4 title.
Like, UWA has literally nothing to do with it.
 

Lazaro

Member
Might be of interest to thread, Forza Apex designed to showcase UWP and Windows 10:


WorthPlaying said:
During the demo, the Turn 10 rep stated that the goal with Apex was to create a showcase for UWP (Universal Windows Platform) and Windows 10. In that regard, the game is as much a tech demo as it is a freebie for players, since Microsoft wants to push UWP. What better way to do that than to show what the platform can do by porting a demanding game?

"We're a first-party team. We work for Microsoft. More than anything, we showcase Microsoft's capabilities," the Turn 10 rep said. "We see this as a gift to the Windows 10 gamer."
 

MUnited83

For you.
Nobody says that they "need" UWA to work. MS is saying it makes it "easier" between Xbox One and Windows 10. Holy shit.

? You clearly said "but MS says universal apps are providing cross platform experiences for games like Fable Legends. "
You don't need UWA to "provide cross platform experiences". This is a fact.
 
Well I'm concerned with the future of the platform I love instead of throwing sarcastic one liners. Besides I thought that wasn't allowed here otherwise half of my posts here would be sarcastic one liners on topics I don't even care for.

This topic concerns me as well, and I have addressed my concerns throughout the pages of the thread. There are definitely problems with UWA that Microsoft needs to address before more games hit the store and before more DX12 games are released.

I'm not about to overreact about them though. There is time to resolve the most pressing issues if Microsoft cares about resolving them.
 
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