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[Kleegamefan]

yes. Both HDDVD and bluray do this. They actually require the player to do the decoding, so they can mix in director commentary etc.

So you don't need HDMI 1.3. Just normal HDMI 1.1 or greater, passing the decoded PCM down to your receiver.

Or analog 5.1 outputs into your receiver.

As for 'PS3 doesn't have analog outputs', well I don't think we've seen any pictures of the PS3 AV outs planned by Sony. Lets wait and see. I hope they do support that, as I have 5.1 inputs, but not HDMI on my receiver.

And the HDDVD add on for XBox 360 is supposed to support decoding of Dolby TrueHD 5.1, and the only reason to do that is if it can output it. So they'll need a new cable hopefully too.

According to this Japanse slide at a Dolby labs nextgen audio presentation last year, DTHD can be passed from player to the reciever via HDMI 1.3 and decoded on the reciever (if its equipped with a DTHD decoder) *or* decoded and output as uncompressed LPCM (over HDMI 1.1 or better would be my guess) or analog 5.1:

 

[max-pain]

The only version of that logo is for dts-HD Master Audio, so no....

But that is clearly not a dts-hd logo. No "HD" after the dts sign and on the linked dts-HD logo (under the dts part) the "Master Audio" is shorter then the words on the the PS3 under the dts sign.

 

[MasterKillla]

I dont see DTS-HD Master Audio
I see DTS Master Audio

yeah

 

[Mmmkay]

Read the thread. The only 'Master Audio' (lossless) format that dts provides is dts-HD.

 

[Raistlin]

I'm pretty sure it's an issue of DTS not deciding on their logo yet. It should be noted there is no 'non-HD' version of Master Audio ... there is only one codec that uses the master name, and it is their lossless codec.

Initially the following was the logo for the new DTS codecs

Originally they simply grouped both DTS-HD amd Master Audio together. However, the HD-DVD and BluRay specs ended up defining support for Master Audio as optional, so they seperated the codecs (DTS-HD is mandatory) and created two distinct logos


The most recent Master Audio logo (to my knowledge) is ...

I'm wondering if they simply decided to now drop the HD for their Master Audio? It's a bit redundant (and confusing) considering thir other new codec is DTS-HD. Plus, they are probably pissed that Dolby uses HD in their name now too.

The reason I'm guessing it is Master audio, is because Master Audio is the only logo I've seen from DTS that uses that swirl ... so I'm not sure what else could be on the PS3 that looks like that?



BTW - To my knowledge, DTS works a bit different from Dolby. Having Master Audio means you also get DTS-HD and DTS support.

Dolby does something similar in that having TrueHD support also gives you DD+ ... but for some reason they feel it necessary to seperately license their original DD (ie. extra money).

 

[mckmas8808]

Hey Klee or anybody else that knows, does to digital optical out play better quality sound than what HDMI will?

 

[Nerevar]

I wonder how much Sony is paying in licensing costs to various trade groups per PS3. That's a lot of standards that they're supporting, and most of them are not necessarily free, IIRC.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Hey Klee or anybody else that knows, does to digital optical out play better quality sound than what HDMI will?

Huh? Hell no. It's like dial-up compared to DSL.

 

[Bad_Boy]

optical is pretty bandwidth limited AFAIK.
hdmi is king, especially 1.3

 

[Raistlin]

I wonder how much Sony is paying in licensing costs to various trade groups per PS3. That's a lot of standards that they're supporting, and most of them are not necessarily free, IIRC.

I'd be shocked if Sony doesn't get a discount.

 

[Nerevar]

I'd be shocked if Sony doesn't get a discount.

yeah, well, who knows. I mean, it seems like half of those licensing fees are going to themselves anyway. :lol

 

[antipode]

Hey Klee or anybody else that knows, does to digital optical out play better quality sound than what HDMI will?

No, HDMI was built to support 24 Mbps for lossless soundtracks. Over optical out you will be downgraded - for example to 1.5 Mbps for DTS.

Will you, personally, be able to hear the difference on a given stereo system? That's a more difficult question.

 

[Raistlin]

No, HDMI was built to support 24 Mbps for lossless soundtracks. Over optical out you will be downgraded - for example to 1.5 Mbps for DTS.

Will you, personally, be able to hear the difference on a given stereo system? That's a more difficult question.

Between DD/DTS versus their lossless counterparts?

Even one a crap system, you should hear some difference.

 

[squicken]

Hmm.. How can 360 do that? It has only S/PDIF, but no 5.1 analog audio out or HDMI.

Unless its just a downmix.

Hopefully that means they are able to offer an HDMI adapter or breakout box.

 

[Raistlin]

Hopefully that means they are able to offer an HDMI adapter or breakout box.

Don't get your hopes up ... at least not for the current model.

 

[mrklaw]

Don't get your hopes up ... at least not for the current model.

breakout box or new component HD cables would be possible. Amir at AVSforum said that the HDDVD addon will decode 5.1 TrueHD. No reason for that if you end up reencoding to DD optical out. Well, the bitrate might be higher than the prerecorded DD track, but I think the most benefit will be from getting that TrueHD out of the Xbox somehow.

 

[Cold-Steel]

I'm really crossing my fingers that the PS3 doesn't follow the PS2's fate and have some super expensive components combined with some super cheap, fragile components in the launch window.

Really hoping for a high quality stand-alone Blu-ray player and gaming console.

 

[Raistlin]

breakout box or new component HD cables would be possible. Amir at AVSforum said that the HDDVD addon will decode 5.1 TrueHD. No reason for that if you end up reencoding to DD optical out. Well, the bitrate might be higher than the prerecorded DD track, but I think the most benefit will be from getting that TrueHD out of the Xbox somehow.

DD by spec has a maximum bit-rate (I'd have to look up the value) that is not related to the actual bandwidth for toslink/dig coax. Unfortunately, that max bit-rate is not particularly high, so the sound quality is not anywhere near what TrueHD actually produces.

HDMI appears to not be possible for the current 360 ... so unless the A/V out can support 5.1 analog outs, the sound quality will simply not be much better than DVD. Basically the best we'll get is max bit-rate DD/DTS.

 

[replicashooter]

I've just realized that Sony are trying the exact same launch methodology with the PS3 that they used with the PS2 - Replace DVDROM with Blu Ray and not much else has changed.

Theres a phrase involving lightning and its lack of regular apperance in previously frequented locales that is whirling around my cranium...

 

[sangreal]

Microsoft indicated at Gamefest (and in the past) that they may release an HDMI solution

http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=11691
(my guess would be a new console SKU though)

 

[Raistlin]

I'll have to check the link at home (work firewall) ... but I'm guessing it's using the new motherboard we've seen pics of.


The problem with HDMI is that to my knowledge, HDCP prevents the possibility of anything like a breakout-box. The signal must be protected at all times. That is why the HDMI processors are on the motherboard and can only be used with a bus that is fully protected (PCI-express for PC's). That way, there is no feasable way to grab the digital signal through an easy physical hack.

 

[Oni Jazar]

Some dude at the insider thread at AVS is saying that the PS3 actually decodes the dolby TrueHD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8281805&&#post8281805

 

[Chiggs]

Some dude at the insider thread at AVS is saying that the PS3 actually decodes the dolby TrueHD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8281805&&#post8281805

That's cool, but will we ever see TrueHD in games? It seems like the machine's processing power would take a hit. Or is the Cell that good?

 

[Mmmkay]

Some dude at the insider thread at AVS is saying that the PS3 actually decodes the dolby TrueHD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8281805&&#post8281805

You know, I was all like "yeah but who is he? I've never seen him post in the Insider thread", then I clicked his profile...

I guess the logo certification procedure mandates decoder capability for Dolby TrueHD, which should put this issue to bed now hopefully. Though now it remains to be seen what the PS3 can do with dts-HD, since dts does have a policy of indicating capability with its logos. The 'Digital Out' written underneath the logo = pass through, and the 2.0 I assume means stereo analog ouptut capability. Any more than that though is a mystery to me.

 

[Stinkles]

First off, let me say my PS3 is preordered and going to be a vital part of my home theater.


So with that out of the way, who here actually has a receiver with DTS HD? I don't and I have $1500 worth of brand new Pioneer Elite.

 

[mckmas8808]

First off, let me say my PS3 is preordered and going to be a vital part of my home theater.


So with that out of the way, who here actually has a receiver with DTS HD? I don't and I have $1500 worth of brand new Pioneer Elite.

3 years from now you might though.

 

[cheekymunky]

First off, let me say my PS3 is preordered and going to be a vital part of my home theater.


So with that out of the way, who here actually has a receiver with DTS HD? I don't and I have $1500 worth of brand new Pioneer Elite.

I dont. Dont have a large enough room to take advantage of it. But I am guessing that Sony is hoping alot of people will use the PS3 as a hub of sorts for their HT setup in the future.....


btw...where the hell did you preorder a PS3 from in the US?

 

[Chiggs]

btw...where the hell did you preorder a PS3 from in the US?

I would like to know this, as well.

 

[gofreak]

What receivers support DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD? This is still necessary if PS3 decodes, or no..? How much could you expect to pay?

 

[Mmmkay]

What receivers support DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD? How much could you expect to pay?

Billions! Well, there aren't any yet, and SI hasn't even developed an HDMI1.3 chip to receive the formats. Assuming the PS3 can decode dts-HD, then your receiver only needs to be able to accept mutlichannel PCM over HDMI. Otherwise the support in the PS3 will be there just for future proofing.

 

[Raistlin]

That's cool, but will we ever see TrueHD in games? It seems like the machine's processing power would take a hit. Or is the Cell that good?

We don't really know how processor intensive decoding would be. Who knows, it might not be that bad.

Audio at that resolution is more of a memory/BW issue.

Using high-res PCM can give you just as high of a sound quality, and would need no extra processing. Since BluRay disks are huge, I'd expect to see this done the most often in games ... and only requires HDMI 1.1 to take advantage of it.

 

[Raistlin]

First off, let me say my PS3 is preordered and going to be a vital part of my home theater.


So with that out of the way, who here actually has a receiver with DTS HD? I don't and I have $1500 worth of brand new Pioneer Elite.

What receivers support DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD? This is still necessary if PS3 decodes, or no..? How much could you expect to pay?

They don't exist yet.

 

[gofreak]

Billions! Well, there aren't any yet, and SI hasn't even developed an HDMI1.3 chip to receive the formats. Assuming the PS3 can decode dts-HD, then your receiver only needs to be able to accept mutlichannel PCM over HDMI.

Cheers! Sounds good, as it sounds like PS3 can decode from that link. Will any HDMI version do for this, or will you need 1.3 on your receiver?

 

[DSN2K]

impressive, PS3 really is an impressive piece of kit there's no denying that.

 

[Oni Jazar]

What receivers support DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD? This is still necessary if PS3 decodes, or no..? How much could you expect to pay?

It won't be necessary if the PS3 decodes it. HDMI 1.1 or multi-channel audio (if PS3 supports this and lets hope it does) is all you need.

 

[mrklaw]

well if Sony do a 5.1 analogue output for dolby TrueHD, couldn't their games just use 5.1 PCM? No need to waste CPU encoding into DTS/DD.

And the BD spec for DD allows for 640kb/s, rather than the 448kb/s ceiling of HDDVD. So DD should sound better than DVD anyway. and DTS can go up to 1.5Mb/s on both formats (thats normal DTS, or as they are now calling it 'DTS-HD')

 

[gofreak]

It won't be necessary if the PS3 decodes it. HDMI 1.1 or multi-channel audio (if PS3 supports this and lets hope it does) is all you need.

Sweet, thanks!

I'm a little clueless about this, but do players normally decode like this? If they don't mess up on the picture quality, PS3 could be my main (and only) BD player for longer than I expected.

edit - cheers Onix, I was going to ask about DTS specifically..fingers crossed.

 

[Raistlin]

Cheers! Sounds good, as it sounds like PS3 can decode from that link. Will any HDMI version do for this, or will you need 1.3 on your receiver?

Note ... the comment at AVS may only be regarding DolbyDigital Plus & Dolby TrueHD ... not the DTS stufff (we simply don't know yet).


For what ever formats are actually decoded on the PS3, HDMI 1.1 or greater is fine.

 

[mckmas8808]

It won't be necessary if the PS3 decodes it. HDMI 1.1 or multi-channel audio (if PS3 supports this and lets hope it does) is all you need.

So all I would have to do is plug the video HDMI part to my HDTV and the sound cords to the HDMI port on the receiver?

 

[Raistlin]

well if Sony do a 5.1 analogue output for dolby TrueHD, couldn't their games just use 5.1 PCM? No need to waste CPU encoding into DTS/DD.

Most games will use PCM - as Resistance does - through HDMI (and lower res through toslink).

And the BD spec for DD allows for 640kb/s, rather than the 448kb/s ceiling of HDDVD. So DD should sound better than DVD anyway. and DTS can go up to 1.5Mb/s on both formats (thats normal DTS, or as they are now calling it 'DTS-HD')

I'm under the impression the 448kb/s is the max for DVD, not HD-DVD. To my knowledge, BluRay and HD-DVD downsample disks to 640kb/s for toslink/coax.

 

[Raistlin]

So all I would have to do is plug the video HDMI part to my HDTV and the sound cords to the HDMI port on the receiver?

HDMI contains audio and video.



If your receiver processes HDMI audio (spec 1.1 or greater), you would simply do PS3 -> receiver -> TV using 2 HDMI cables.



If your receiver does not process HDMI audio you would connect the same as above (if you want to use your receiver for HDMI switching) ... and also connect the PS3 toslink to your receiver (you could also connect the HDMI directly from the PS3 to your TV, and the toslink PS3 -> receiver, if you don't care about video switching).

In the above situation (receiver only does HDMI switching) ... you could potentially do the following as well, assuming your TV has a toslink output AND will actually downmix HDMI audio to DD/DTS; Simply connect the PS3 -> TV via HDMI ... and the TV toslink -> receiver.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Sweet, thanks!

I'm a little clueless about this, but do players normally decode like this? If they don't mess up on the picture quality, PS3 could be my main (and only) BD player for longer than I expected.

edit - cheers Onix, I was going to ask about DTS specifically..fingers crossed.

DTHD, DD+ and dts-HD master audio can be either:


Decoded internally and they output via HDMI 1.1 (or better) as Linear PCM


OR

If the player is HDMI 1.3 compatibility (like the PS3), it can pass the DTHD, DD+ or dts-HD master audio stream to a compatible reciever with the necessary decoder (none are on the market yet, but many should be announced at the CEIDA expo in Sept)


Since the PS3 will be on the market much, much longer than any stand alone Blu-ray player (stand alones will probably see annual updates) I think it was a good Idea for SCEI to include as many features as possible....the byproduct of this is the PS3 is the only player anywhere that has these features:

SACD
HDMI 1.3 output
DTHD decoder
dts-HD decoder
BD-J compatibility (PS3 has internet connectivity, don't forget)



No other Blu-ray ROM stand alone player announced sofar can match PLAYSTATION 3 feature set at any price...

 

[Stinkles]

I would like to know this, as well.

A friend.

 

[Stinkles]

No other Blu-ray ROM stand alone player announced sofar can match PLAYSTATION 3 feature set at any price...

Again - I cannot ****ing fathom how Pioneer, Samsung etc can swallow this.


What gives. Anyone work for a big CE that isn't Sony got any insight?

 

[OmniGamer]

Again - I cannot ****ing fathom how Pioneer, Samsung etc can swallow this.


What gives. Anyone work for a big CE that isn't Sony got any insight?

Maybe because there are some A/V enthusiast who no matter what will not buy a game console, for whatever reason, and will only buy standalone dedicated A/V gear.

 

[Stinkles]

Maybe because there are some A/V enthusiast who no matter what will not buy a game console, for whatever reason, and will only buy standalone dedicated A/V gear.

That is a helluva gamble. Especially since those same AV-philes will take one look at an extra audio spec and choose based on that.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Geez, this thing is just an video/audio dream machine.

I may not have the tv gear yet...all in due time....but my father just loves his audio.

I'm afraid if I get this thing my father would seriously try to take it as as center piece for his audio system for his movies. Seriously my dad's speaker set-up....you know how people but those sleek looking 5.1 surround sound speaker systems and all that jazz?

Well not my dad, his set-up is composed of kind of big-ass speakers you might find in garage bands too. 2 speakers stacked on each side (total of 4 of these chunky looking speakers) making it like 5 feet+ tall connected to work as two big left and right main surround speaker while his old regular looking stereo speakers are used for the audio back left and right.

With the big left and right speakers, there leaves the little small speakers that would have the left, right and center speaker; these of course are all connected together on top of his tv to act as one center. There is a surprising modest sub-woofer through it all. All apart it's 10 freaking speakers working as a 5.1 surround sound set-up!

It's quite an amazing looking monster. Not the sleek subtle design, just one look at it and all you can really think is...."That looks to be one hell of a loud set-up."

Unfortunately my father also loves karaoke and imagine what I just described blasting off ear wrenching attempts at singing thoughout the house.

 

[Raistlin]

DTHD, DD+ and dts-HD master audio can be either:


Decoded internally and they output via HDMI 1.1 (or better) as Linear PCM


OR

If the player is HDMI 1.3 compatibility (like the PS3), it can pass the DTHD, DD+ or dts-HD master audio stream to a compatible reciever with the necessary decoder (none are on the market yet, but many should be announced at the CEIDA expo in Sept)


Since the PS3 will be on the market much, much longer than any stand alone Blu-ray player (stand alones will probably see annual updates) I think it was a good Idea for SCEI to include as many features as possible....the byproduct of this is the PS3 is the only player anywhere that has these features:

SACD
HDMI 1.3 output
DTHD decoder
dts-HD decoder
BD-J compatibility (PS3 has internet connectivity, don't forget)



No other Blu-ray ROM stand alone player announced sofar can match PLAYSTATION 3 feature set at any price...

Since Sony appears to be all but admitting SACD is going to be phased out, at least from a major HW manufacturing point ...

... it would be awesome of enough people got together and requested (bitched) for Sony to add in DVD-A support in the future. Really, they have nothing to lose ... and all the necessary HW (and most of the SW) is already there.


Crap ... that would be one hell of a A/V hub. A universal that handles every format (aside from HD-DVD) ... plus network media functionality and internal storage.

0_o

 

[Raistlin]

That is a helluva gamble. Especially since those same AV-philes will take one look at an extra audio spec and choose based on that.

While that's true, we'll see BluRay's that support all audio codecs next year.

Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the currently announced units receive firmware updates for those codecs anyway.

 

[Raistlin]

Unfortunately my father also loves karaoke and imagine what I just described blasting off ear wrenching attempts at singing thoughout the house.

Once he sees SingStar ... you're ****ed.


Consider your PS3 p0n3d.