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[M3d10n]

It's awesome. Just know that. Heck, probably 2/3 of technical stuff goes over my head too. I sometimes feel bad asking questions to answers I don't fully grasp, but I figure someone has to.



Well I figured that the surface has no set resolution. Like asking what resolution the wireframe of the TV has. The question makes no sense, of course. I guess I'm wondering what highest resolution is on VR goggles currently that this simulation could run on?

RGB color space is more than just fine. Euro TVs supported it anyway and consumer NTSC TVs upsample back to RGB out of necessity. Down sampling to YUV is just extra work for lost bi-pixel color data. It's almost as pointless as simulating dithering and/or pixel depth down sizing in limited memory, IMO from a purely technical standpoint. Not to say that you have to be concerned with my standards in your personal project, though. Whatever it is you're after, I still find this fascinating for its potential.

Question: Just for the sake of versatility, would it be possible to capture game footage from a real console on the fly and impose that into your simulation? Not that I demand to see you do it, but just wondering if that's possible in any practical sense.

I definitely would love to see how much more you progress with this. Thanks for sharing!

Right now I'm just using native res pngs grabbed from Google images. I haven't messed with video textures in UE4 yet, but that's should be the quickiest way to get some motion and I'll try it later. Hooking an actual emulator would take a lot more work, like porting something like Retroarch into an UE4 plugin. It's possible, but I won't have time for something that big for a while.

Hooking a real console could work with any video capture plugin, which I'm pretty sure already exists.

About resolution, it would depend on the VR device. The screens I posted aren't downsampled or anything like that, I took them directly from my desktop.

 

[mdzapeer]

This UE4 stuff looks really cool, but then would have to run everything through UE4 wont you?

 

[blast processed]

I don't understand what this is.

Same, I'm lost. Lol

 

[M3d10n]

Here's a LTTP glamour macro shot, for the heck of it:

(I really need to find a better TV model... or at least one that is textured).

This UE4 stuff looks really cool, but then would have to run everything through UE4 wont you?

Kind of, it would be more like a really, really GPU intensive emulator frontend.

Same, I'm lost. Lol

RGB = Best analog video cable ever
CRT = Those old, bulky TV/monitors that old people used before they invented flat panels and that gave you eye cancer
UE4 = Unreal Engine 4

 

[televator]

Right now I'm just using native res pngs grabbed from Google images. I haven't messed with video textures in UE4 yet, but that's should be the quickiest way to get some motion and I'll try it later. Hooking an actual emulator would take a lot more work, like porting something like Retroarch into an UE4 plugin. It's possible, but I won't have time for something that big for a while.

Hooking a real console could work with any video capture plugin, which I'm pretty sure already exists.

About resolution, it would depend on the VR device. The screens I posted aren't downsampled or anything like that, I took them directly from my desktop.

Huh... Yeah, actually, at least for now captured video is perhaps the most practical way to get motion game footage running through your filters. Since you say UE4 is GPU intensive. Offloading the actual game processing to real external hardware could give a PC some breathing room.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Same, I'm lost. Lol

He's trying to simulate a CRT in a 3D game environment. Which might be good for use in VR if VR didn't have a million other eye splitting issues.

 

[New002]

Total noob here...

How easy is it to change the framemeister to English through a firmware update? Does anyone have a guide a noob like me could follow?

 

[televator]

Total noob here...

How easy is it to change the framemeister to English through a firmware update? Does anyone have a guide a noob like me could follow?

The English FW is here. Put the extracted file into the root of a micro SD. Unplug the mini, stick the micro card in, plug it back in, and wait for all the blinky lights to stop blinking.

 

[Barrel Cannon]

Here's a LTTP glamour macro shot, for the heck of it:

(I really need to find a better TV model... or at least one that is textured).




Kind of, it would be more like a really, really GPU intensive emulator frontend.



RGB = Best analog video cable ever
CRT = Those old, bulky TV/monitors that old people used before they invented flat panels and that gave you eye cancer
UE4 = Unreal Engine 4

Magnificent shot

This is mad cool. Now you got me dreaming of a future where we play old pre-6th gen games on PVMs inside VR. We'll no longer have to worry about our PVM's breaking down.

Spoiler

The better model TVs can be DLC

edit: Just saw the pics from previous page..... my god it's glorious. The attempts at simulating arcade cabinets last gen on certain XBLA titles was a valiant effort but not as useful due to how small the end image would be. This VR simulation is going to be a game-changer. Capcom/SNK need to just hire you and get their shit out pronto for the upcoming VR storm.

 

[Khaz]

The grill is a picture from a real set, but the "beam mask" is a quick paint.net job that has no basis on any real data, for now. The grille is "fixed" like on a real TV: there are enough for 720 vertical lines and the image is "beamed" on it, no matter what the source's horizontal resolution is. The scanlines are the ones that match vertical resolution.

I notice you haven't matched the colour intensity with the spot surface area. Once this is done, you can simply define the scan line width by tweaking the maximum glow area instead of using an artificial mask.

 

[M3d10n]

I notice you haven't matched the colour intensity with the spot surface area. Once this is done, you can simply define the scan line width by tweaking the maximum glow area instead of using an artificial mask.

I tried something like this initially, by calculating the intensity based on the distance to the point hit by the beam. The problem is that it causes moiré artifacts when zooming out, unless I come up with a way to multisample the effect. Turns out a texture mask can obtain the same result, with the multisampling baked into the mipmaps. I just need to generate an accurate one (inverse square, probably).

I'm also thinking about doing some actual light bleed on the phosphor layer. Right now I'm only relying on the HDR bloom to provide the effect, but in real screens some bleeding naturally occurs around bright points due to the phosphors themselves lighting up.

 

[Harlock]

Is worth to open and clean inside the cartridge? Is not just the cartridge slot being clean that matters for the game to work?

 

[geniusbits]

Is worth to open and clean inside the cartridge? Is not just the cartridge slot being clean that matters for the game to work?

Q-tips with acetone are good for cleaning the pins of cartridges and the pins on the console.

 

[ToD_]

Those VR CRT shots look spectacular. I wonder what it would look like on the Rift/Vive. Wouldn't the resolution of the headsets be too low to make the CRT effects visible (or worse, have some moire like effect)? In addition, the 90Hz would not play well with 60fps games. I'm assuming the next generation of headsets will have a resolution increase and potentially refresh at 120Hz, resolving those issues. This is great work, however, and I'd be happy to give this a whirl if/when available.

 

[Rich!]

Dear god someone has put a 20" Sony BVM and two PVMs onto eBay as a single auction starting at 99p. I want it but it's gonna go waaaaay too high and im broke

Some git will win it then sell them all separately at 5x the price I bet

 

[TeaJay]

RGB = Best analog video cable ever
CRT = Those old, bulky TV/monitors that old people used before they invented flat panels and that gave you eye cancer
UE4 = Unreal Engine 4

Well duh, I know what RGB and CRT are but I have no idea how Unreal Engine relates to that ... TV? Dumb it down.

 

[Coda]

Man it's funny how composite still looks better than SCART on an LCD.

I only say this because I recently came across this Samsung Syncmaster 910C monitor/tv that had a SCART connection and I was pumped about it. Brought it home and soon discovered that it looked like ass. It's kind of crazy how well of a picture my Sony WEGA CRT produces even with a composite signal.

 

[Rich!]

Well duh, I know what RGB and CRT are but I have no idea how Unreal Engine relates to that ... TV? Dumb it down.

Dude

It's a living room in virtual reality. With a simulated virtual reality CRT. It's all built in UE4.

 

[Mega]

Well duh, I know what RGB and CRT are but I have no idea how Unreal Engine relates to that ... TV? Dumb it down.

It's not a real TV. It's a "living room" virtual environment for VR headsets like Oculus and Vive. The focus is on playing old-school games on the simulated CRT in that virtual room. When headsets improve and the simulations are perfected, it should be almost indistinguishable from a real CRT.

 

[dubc35]

I want to be able to run the 240p test suite when I get my PVM. It looks like there is a $20 Genesis cart that is now available. Genesis and SNES are the only consoles I have that can run the suite and I don't have an Everdrive. This seems like it would be the cheapest way to get it for me.

This is perhaps a stupid question but if I run the test suite via Genesis will there be any issues with SNES? By "issues" let's use overscan as an example, if I adjust the PVM for Genesis overscan will that be ideal for SNES, or do people run different configs for different systems? (I'm using overscan as an example but interested in the entire suite and how it compares across SNES/Genesis.)

 

[Rich!]

The mega drive runs at a different resolution to the snes. But the 240p suite has a solution to that - it has a grid and linearity pattern in a separate 224p mode which is the res the SNES runs at. You can use both and get a good compromise.

 

[TeaJay]

It's not a real TV. It's a "living room" virtual environment for VR headsets like Oculus and Vive. The focus is on playing old-school games on the simulated CRT in that virtual room. When headsets improve and the simulations are perfected, it should be almost indistinguishable from a real CRT.

Okay, okay. The wonders of modern technology!

Too bad I can't use virtual reality stuff, it gives me an insane migraine, same as 3D movies.

 

[M3d10n]

Well duh, I know what RGB and CRT are but I have no idea how Unreal Engine relates to that ... TV? Dumb it down.

Oh, you thought that was a photo of an actual TV? Mission accomplished, I guess. There's no TV, it's just a 3D model inside a 3D apartment done with UE4.

Anyway, it's usable outside VR, just place the camera in front of the TV looking straight at it and it just becomes a CRT filter. I don't even have a VR headset, so I have no idea how it looks on one. I did my best to avoid moire artifacts, but I don't know if the VR distortion could re-introduce it.

 

[Beer Monkey]

This is perhaps a stupid question but if I run the test suite via Genesis will there be any issues with SNES? By "issues" let's use overscan as an example, if I adjust the PVM for Genesis overscan will that be ideal for SNES, or do people run different configs for different systems? (I'm using overscan as an example but interested in the entire suite and how it compares across SNES/Genesis.)

Overscan can't even be set perfectly for a single console, let alone multiple consoles. The actual display area is controlled by the game code itself. Some use more black space on the sides than others, likewise the top and bottom. Displaying/calculating fewer pixels and/or lines is a trick to keep games running at a smooth framerate, reduce memory, free up processing power, and so on.

 

[Rich!]

Yep, and then you have variable borders and over scan inside a single game (Super Mario RPG, Lufia 2)

 

[Lettuce]

Yesterday I started playing around with creating a RGB CRT material on UE4, here are the results:

The material mimicks an aperture grille TV, not a shadow mask one.



Savage

This is just awesome......does this mean that we could all have a 3 screen Ninja Warriors and Darius setup in our VR room!!??

 

[TeaJay]

This is perhaps a stupid question but if I run the test suite via Genesis will there be any issues with SNES? By "issues" let's use overscan as an example, if I adjust the PVM for Genesis overscan will that be ideal for SNES, or do people run different configs for different systems? (I'm using overscan as an example but interested in the entire suite and how it compares across SNES/Genesis.)

I haven't used a test suite, but I've settled on settings on my PVM that look okay for the consoles I have. For some games the image might be ever so slightly too much to the left, for some a few lines on the top are missing etc. but I really can't be arsed to edit it manually constantly. What I have is a good compromise on geometry.

 

[dubc35]

Ok, thanks for the answers everyone! I think I'll hold off until I get the PVM before deciding to get the test suite.

 

[psylah]

Here's a LTTP glamour macro shot, for the heck of it:

(I really need to find a better TV model... or at least one that is textured).




Kind of, it would be more like a really, really GPU intensive emulator frontend.



RGB = Best analog video cable ever
CRT = Those old, bulky TV/monitors that old people used before they invented flat panels and that gave you eye cancer
UE4 = Unreal Engine 4

Digital Cybercherries took this all the way. Also built in UE4. Oculus ready.

 

[NormalFish]

that chromatic aberration is killing it

 

[Timu]

that chromatic aberration is killing it

Yep, I really, really HATE that effect...I only like it when it's subtitle and even then barely.

 

[Shadow Hog]

I like it when it's on a monitor, personally, even though it's not exactly something that shows up on actual monitors all that much.

However, that screenshot shows it happening on the bottom side of the Zelda cartridge, which is rather ridiculous.

 

[Mega]

Yep. Chromatic aberration should not be there at all.

CA, either real or in the form of filters put in modern games, doesn't resemble the convergence and purity issues of CRTs. They're each different things.

 

[NormalFish]

it gets remarked upon in every thread about it, but it's so weird how a universally disliked malformity of photography/film is now actively placed in to video games. Reminds me of over the top lens flare and DoF in ENB presets.

 

[Timu]

Yep. Chromatic aberration should not be there at all.

CA, either real or in the form of filters put in modern games, doesn't resemble the convergence and purity issues of CRTs. They're each different things.

Truer words have never been spoken!

 

[Mega]

it gets remarked upon in every thread about it, but it's so weird how a universally disliked malformity of photography/film is now actively placed in to video games. Reminds me of over the top lens flare and DoF in ENB presets.

Yeah, it's total bullshit. We all hate it, but if I had to guess why it persists...

1. it focus tested well on ordinary consumers who like the "gritty" or "photorealistic" effect it gives to modern games.

2. fad perpetuated by devs that don't understand this is a hideous and unwanted side effect in film

 

[televator]

It's not a real TV. It's a "living room" virtual environment for VR headsets like Oculus and Vive. The focus is on playing old-school games on the simulated CRT in that virtual room. When headsets improve and the simulations are perfected, it should be almost indistinguishable from a real CRT.

...And better in many ways.

 

[dubc35]

Ha, I had been looking at the images on my phone and didn't realize it was a VR room. Proper Parzival & Aech's hangout, lol.

 

[Rich!]

one thing that has really astounded me since I got my JVC is how absolutely perfect the black level is. It's true black. And the neat motion blur you get against black backgrounds on it is something that I just haven't seen replicated in any other display tech. It's awesome.

I guess the closest anyones got so far is oled

 

[televator]

one thing that has really astounded me since I got my JVC is how absolutely perfect the black level is. It's true black. And the neat motion blur you get against black backgrounds on it is something that I just haven't seen replicated in any other display tech. It's awesome.

I guess the closest anyones got so far is oled

CRTs were great with shadow detail/contrast ratio, but you couldn't get absolute black with them either. They still glowed at 0 IRE. Otherwise you'd crush the hell out of shadow detail.

 

[Timu]

it gets remarked upon in every thread about it, but it's so weird how a universally disliked malformity of photography/film is now actively placed in to video games. Reminds me of over the top lens flare and DoF in ENB presets.

And bloom and to an extent motion blur. I personally hate how devs use it for 90% of the time.

 

[Mega]

...And better in many ways.

Perhaps, it's up to continuing advancements on the display panels and on the computing power to adequately push the visuals.16K resolution per eye is the figure one Oculus developer gave for the output to have retinal resolution: no visible pixels in scenery details to take away from the realism. We won't get there for years. Early-to-mid 2020s?

 

[Khaz]

CRTs were great with shadow detail/contrast ratio, but you couldn't get absolute black with them either. They still glowed at 0 IRE. Otherwise you'd crush the hell out of shadow detail.

? No glow on mine, or if there is it's unnoticeable. When my TV is on but without anything to display, the screen is completely black safe for a small icon in one corner saying "no source". I cannot tell the difference between the TV turned on or off if I focus on the empty side of the screen. The TV displaying a black screen is just as black as when it's off.

Which is logical. The glow of a CRT comes from when electrons from the beam hit the phosphores. the more electrons, the brighter the pixel. When R,G, and B =0, all three beams spit no electron, just like when they are switched off.

[edit] I just tried with another TV and the 240p test suite to display a completely black screen with only a small white single pixel cursor. Switching the TV on and off I can't see any difference. The squeak is what gives it away though.

 

[Rich!]

Yeah, my CRT has literally no glow at all when showing a full black screen. It's basically as good as turned off.

A good test is the opening of DKC3 with Dixie and kiddy bouncing across the screen.

 

[NormalFish]

I don't think I've ever seen a (consumer) TV without some level of glow when displaying a black screen. Perhaps professional grade monitors are an exception.

 

[Rich!]

I don't think I've ever seen a (consumer) TV without some level of glow when displaying a black screen. Perhaps professional grade monitors are an exception.

They are. I've never experienced this with anything other than my JVC and I've had CRTs for near thirty years.

 

[Khaz]

Maybe they weren't properly calibrated? On mines, when I change the brightness on a black screen from above the middle position, the screen gets more grey. The middle value and any value in the lower half is pitch black. Like, between 0 and -10 whites get darker, and between 0 and +10 blacks get lighter.

One thing to consider is how black is black. The two TVs I have in front of me, even though now switched off, have a different screen darkness. The fancy one is super black, while the cheap one is slightly more grey. I suppose it's due to the inner coating and how good it is at masking the inside of the tube and not reflecting outside light.

I only have consumer TVs, no professional monitors.

 

[televator]

Maybe they weren't properly calibrated? On mines, when I change the brightness on a black screen from above the middle position, the screen gets more grey. The middle value and any value in the lower half is pitch black. Like, between 0 and -10 whites get darker, and between 0 and +10 blacks get lighter.

One thing to consider is how black is black. The two TVs I have in front of me, even though switched off, have a different screen darkness. The fancy one is super black, while the cheap one is slightly more grey. I suppose it's due to the inner coating and how good it is at masking the inside of the tube and not reflecting outside light.

I only have consumer TVs, no professional monitors.

It's likely the other way around. If you're getting a truly black screen from a consumer CRT, you're probably out of calibration an are crushing some black detail.

I should test the XM 29 for it, but every other CRT I've seen glows in a dark room with a black screen even calibrated.

 

[Khaz]

It's likely the other way around. If you're getting a truly black screen from a consumer CRT, you're probably out of calibration an are crushing some black detail.

I should test the XM 29 for it, but every other CRT I've seen glows in a dark room with a black screen even calibrated.

Yes, I put the room in complete dark, and there is indeed a very faint glow. You really need to be in a completely closed room to see it though. In a normal use, or when other parts of the screen are illuminated, you can't really see a difference.

I noticed a very faint arc of light on the top side of my cheap TV, I'm not sure what it is. Never saw it before.

 

[Galdelico]

I noticed a very faint arc of light on the top side of my cheap TV, I'm not sure what it is. Never saw it before.

Do you mean over a 100% black picture? If so, it's there on my two flatsceen Trinitron CRTs too. Weirdly enough, it only shows up on AV1 channel with RGB. AV2 with S-Video doesn't seem to suffer from the same issue.