I really hope that I'm never on a jury with GAF.
You better hope you'd never be accused of something with GAF as the jury :b
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US Soccer Referee Dies After Punch
- Thread starter s7evn
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You better hope you'd never be accused of something with GAF as the jury :b
heliosRAzi
Banned
Life without parole
Sidewinder
Member
Every time I watch a professional soccer game, players complain when they get a card, it's like they just have to do it, to intimidate the referee in the hope that he'll maybe not whip out another card or signal a foul for his team the next time. Why do these guys have to tolerate that shit every damn game?
Referee makes a decision = it has to be considered as a fact, which it actually is, it's not open to discussion. The everlasting moaning and cursing should be automatically reprimanded with another yellow card. The things you hear about amateur games and what those referees have to endure from the players, family and fans...threats, curses, getting beat up...all that just for some stupid game.
Referee makes a decision = it has to be considered as a fact, which it actually is, it's not open to discussion. The everlasting moaning and cursing should be automatically reprimanded with another yellow card. The things you hear about amateur games and what those referees have to endure from the players, family and fans...threats, curses, getting beat up...all that just for some stupid game.
Do kill, on a regular basis. Anyone who's ever worked an ER knows that the damage punches can do is considerably more serious than most people think. The most common serious punch related injury is the shattering of the orbit of the eye, which sometimes results in loss of vision in the eye, and requires major reconstructive surgery. That doesn't even address the brain damage that can occur.
So what would be an appropriate sentence if a punch during a hockey fight kills someone? We are missing information obviously; we don't know the force of the punch, but it's possible that the punch was quite mundane.
This isn't particularly useful information without information regarding the amount of punches thrown for every one resulting in a serious injury.
Angry Fork
Member
So can having a jog through a park. That doesn't mean people stop jogging because they realize there is 0.0001% chance they will fall and die.
Punches or slaps that kill are rare, therefore it isn't fair to say "anyone who throws a punch intended to kill them... because it's possible". It's fucking dumb overreach for people who get a hard on at eye for an eye justice.
But how about the amount of punches thrown vs. who actually gets such damage? I'm not saying it isn't possible for serious damage to occur, but how many bar fights result in that, or other similar situations.
Before I go further and make the obvious point of kids everywhere throwing punches in school, tell me why you'd immediately equate punching to assault with a deadly weapon. Yes, it can kill people. Obviously. But not every thrown punch signifies an adult realizing they are ready to end a life and committed to achieve a scenario where someone is dead and nothing less.
Because I'm not even going to say that it's right below using a knife or baseball bat - Its significantly lower than throwing a chair. Yet, at the same time a thrown punch is ridiculously more abundant. For many reasons.
But fuck it. I want to hear it.
It's funny that you say something would never be seen as provocation when a trial like this would hinge on discretion, specifically the discretion of the jury. To this kid, a soccer game could be more important than someone else fucking his wife. Is that a stretch? Of course but people do get heated at different things. Everyone has their limit and their things that push the limit faster than others. Assuming he doesn't have or did not have anger issues and was perfectly normal when it came to that limit then I still don't see how its so impossible to see this as a heat of the moment case.
I think manslaughter is the minimum he should be charged for, but I wouldn't feel bad if he got charged for murder. There's a reason there's different degrees of murder charges.
outunderthestars
Banned
Are you seriously comparing jogging to physically assaulting someone? Please tell me that you see the difference.
Justice is not just about rehabilitation. It is also about retribution.
Should anyone throwing a punch be charged with attempted murder?
The Incarnation
Member
Quite a few of these incidents in my town alone. So much so that there's a one punch can kill campaign going off presently.
One lad got eight years for murder, mainly because of his threatening and bullying behaviour in the past. Not helping his cause was the fact that he was a professional boxer, and a son of a British Champion boxer no less.
And another guy got off scott free, I think because the situation he was in was a threatening one, i.e the person he knocked out and killed was aggressive. Amusingly he was a youth or a reserve player for a professional football team.
Hard to say what a justified sentence should be in any case, but people should be aware of the fact that their punches can kill people. I've seen many lives altered because of one drunken punch that has lead to brain operations for people, A couple of friends of mine actually, and they haven't been the same since. The guy who did that to one of my mates merely got 18 months.
Rob an old lady and she dies of a heart attack, seen things like that be classed as murder before.
Being a socio-path shouldn't be any excuse really. People who neither care about the effects of their actions on others, nor fear the consequences are dangerous, and should be treated as such.
One lad got eight years for murder, mainly because of his threatening and bullying behaviour in the past. Not helping his cause was the fact that he was a professional boxer, and a son of a British Champion boxer no less.
And another guy got off scott free, I think because the situation he was in was a threatening one, i.e the person he knocked out and killed was aggressive. Amusingly he was a youth or a reserve player for a professional football team.
Hard to say what a justified sentence should be in any case, but people should be aware of the fact that their punches can kill people. I've seen many lives altered because of one drunken punch that has lead to brain operations for people, A couple of friends of mine actually, and they haven't been the same since. The guy who did that to one of my mates merely got 18 months.
Rob an old lady and she dies of a heart attack, seen things like that be classed as murder before.
Being a socio-path shouldn't be any excuse really. People who neither care about the effects of their actions on others, nor fear the consequences are dangerous, and should be treated as such.
Angry Fork
Member
I'm comparing the chance of dying falling while jogging vs. dying when getting punched once. They're both incredibly small chances, but obviously "possible" you can die.
People are saying just because of that small possibility, now every punch should be seen as 'intended to kill'. Ridiculous.
And its a ridiculous comparison.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Manslaughter is what he's most likely going to be charged with unless the kid held the guy down and repeatedly punched him over and over until the ref's face caved in. But going by the article, it seemed like it was just a single punch; the kid is going to get manslaughter and probably take a deal where he gets a few years of probation and go to anger management classes.
Space Avocat
Member
Crazy. Can't really argue how they ruled in that case. Since there was no provocation, Missouri only had 2 options to convict him on
or
I suppose if this happened in Missouri, it's possible the soccer player could be convicted of murder 2, which seems harsh considering that if they got in an argument and the referee pushed him first, he could have pulled out a gun and shot the referee and received the same or less charges.
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5650000024.HTM
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5650000021.HTM
Count Dookkake
Member
Assuming a risk for oneself is different than assuming a risk for another.
Comparison fails.
I wouldn't feel bad if he got charged with murder either. He probably will be. I'd feel bad if the jury was made up of people like you who would actually convict him of that murder.
If you punch someone without realizing you could kill them, you are an idiot. And if you end up killing someone with your punch, you deserve the appropriate punishment. I am sorry that life has consequences.
And what do idiot kids throwing punches in school have to do with anything?
Angry Fork
Member
Not for what I'm arguing. I'm saying when people punch someone they don't plan on killing anyone, because the chance is so small it doesn't even go through their mind.
Same as doing random x activity that has a small chance of serious injury occurring, like jogging or whatever else.
Rocket Scientist
Member
heliosRAzi
Banned
That it happens a lot and the deaths occur so little.
Hehe, GAF has the armchair judge syndrome.
And what is the appropriate punishment in your opinion? I don't know if you've actually said that in the thread?
I actually do want to be accused of something with GAF as the jury. At least then I know I won't be convicted yet for sure. It would certainly be a hung jury with three months of deliberation
Angry Fork
Member
I get that it changes if the person you're punching is young or old, but it's generally accepted people aged 20-50 can take a punch without expecting death no? And people who throw the punch feel this way too.
I don't understand why what I'm saying is considered so crazy.
So just like that you have every single school yard fight, drunken bar scrap, and wouldbe misdemeanor under the same category updated to assault with a deadly weapon + attempted murder because you personally feel that everyone should be as aware to something that as intrinsic as walking because you see no better option or feel no need to distinguish based on circumstances, situation, or intent.
Let me know if I'm wrong.
The 'bridge too far' is the notion that the kid took action intended to kill. implying that he took into account the possibility for homicide is wrong.
But he did take action intending to do harm. With an unaggravated attack that could kill. So I think that should be reflected.
Whatever is mandated by law for the appropriate crime that was committed. I am not a judge, a law maker, a prosecutor or anything of the sort.
But if I had to put a number on it, I would say anywhere from 4-12 years depending on all the factors that I don't know about.
I just know that a dude punching someone who did absolutely nothing to him and kills him deserves to be punished severely for that.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
I can honestly say that now I've seen everything.
Angry Fork
Member
I'm sure there's a scenario someone can die by a poke to the forehead. The point we're making is there are different ranges and possibilities based on the force you use, how you use your hand etc.
It isn't as black and white as 'you punched him!? YOU MEANT TO MURDER HIM IN COLD BLOOD, THROW HIM IN A DUNGEON!'
Ok, can you explain further.
Sooooo.... I misinterpreted your absolute hardline on the issue of punches in particular earlier?
If you really think that I think punching someone is attempted murder then you have no interest in having an actual discussion here.
MrToughPants
Brian Burke punched my mom
Firing squad is a popular execution method in Utah.
What hardline do you think I made?
Punches can kill someone. When they do, especially if the punch was unprovoked, I believe that it should be punished appropriately, regardless of whether or not the puncher was dumb enough not to realize the punch could kill.
Count Dookkake
Member
Nothing in your post has anything to do with what you are responding to.
Rocket Scientist
Member
I don't feel like searching the complete thread, but it would be swell if you could provide a round up of all the people that posted something to this effect. I would like to examine them.
But Missouri law say knowingly cause the death or have purpose to cause serious harm. How could they prove the soccer player threw the punch to knowingly to cause him to die or with the purpose to cause serious harm. The case in St. Louis says they were playing a game, and the purpose was to hit somebody hard enough to knock them out, his purpose throwing that punch was to cause serious harm. That fits murder 2 for Missouri, how punching somebody in the heat of the moment/argument the same thing.
You are still not making clear whether you believe that the precise degree of risk the degree of dangerousness - involved matters.
Angry Fork
Member
You've already said you feel the full weight of the law should be put on someone for punching because 'they should have realized death was a risk'. That their actions 'have consequences' and yadayada.
Dude abides has said you can get a murder charge, so if someone poked someone in the cheek and they die somehow should they have the full weight of a murder charge thrown at them? Because they ignored the 0.00000001% chance they could have died from a poke? A punch is stronger than a poke but you're arguing anyone who doesn't adhere to this 'possible risk' is an idiot.
Hard to find stats on it, but that's like asking how many DUIs result in death compared to the number of DUIs occur. Both are potentially fatal, but fatal outcomes in both are outliers.
People like me? Do you think the victim's family doesn't deserve justice? Should they let this slide because the kid was 'angry' in the heat of the moment? Tell me what you would tell the victim's family.
Ok, we're leaving
WTF? What does a poke have to do with anything? Someone punched a person in anger that resulted in their death.
I think punching an old person or baby is probably more serious than punching a 20 year old, but think an unprovoked punch resulting in death on anyone should be seriously punished by prison time.
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