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VaatiVidya has a new Bloodborne Lore video up
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
- Start date
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Since when was fanfiction lore thread worthy
Winter John
Member
2 entirely different scenarios. ENB was always open about working on the guidebooks. I think he actually made a video announcing it and to be honest, after all the videos he'd made on DS lore he deserved the recognition for his work. As for Vaati, I've watched a few of his videos. They're ok, nothing special. His apparent plagiarism seems worse to me than making a blatant advert for DS2
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The gamestop thing counts as recognition for his work, I remember he went in on the pc version and used custom camera angles and such for his work. (Something he can't do for bloodborne). And it's not like he was hiding the fact that he did a video for gamestop. They're both pretty important to the community. Really sucks that the thread got derailed with something that frankly has very little to do with the video in the OP. (._. )
For the people who don't understand the fan-fiction claims...
It's not what Vaati says, it's how he says it. He's been a catalyst for some of the community's belief that Souls lore is a "Choose Your Own Adventure" when in fact there is a right and wrong answer. His influence over the community has promoted ridiculous lore ideas just being taken as fact. Because when he takes giant assumptions, he says them like fact.
Yeah, there's also the plagiarism but I've disliked him for his disrespect for the lore long before that.
It's not what Vaati says, it's how he says it. He's been a catalyst for some of the community's belief that Souls lore is a "Choose Your Own Adventure" when in fact there is a right and wrong answer. His influence over the community has promoted ridiculous lore ideas just being taken as fact. Because when he takes giant assumptions, he says them like fact.
Yeah, there's also the plagiarism but I've disliked him for his disrespect for the lore long before that.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
An example? Iirc he usually prefaces his theories with "perhaps" And part of the appeal of souls is coming up with theories when you can fill in the blanks of the narrative.
He flat-out denied being sponsored by Gamestop though. That's what pissed people, including me, off.
https://youtu.be/aRv4a8K8hYQ?t=244 (4:04)
"As it was, Clerics turned in to the most hideous beasts." (Did they? Where's your proof?)
"The Cleric Beast jumps from the walls of the Cathedral Ward and we fight what became of the first church hunter, Ludwig."
No 'perhaps' about it.
Winter John
Member
Come on now that is totally disingenuous. He very much did hide the fact that he was being paid by Gamestop. He presented a blatant advertising video as an opinion piece and didn't mention anywhere in the video that he was being paid/sponsored by Gamestop. Other LP'ers who have pulled the same stunt have been rightly condemned by the YT community, Vaati should be no exception.
Magic Mushroom
Member
I do like his narration, but plagiarism is a no go.
The Paleblood Hunt is a brilliant piece of work by Redgrave by the way.
The Paleblood Hunt is a brilliant piece of work by Redgrave by the way.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Notice how I didn't say "literally every time." I said he usually does so, not to mention that aside from the cleric(obviously from the church) beast, we also have Vicar Amelia, and Gascoigne as an evidence that people involved with the church get turned into the most terrible kind of beasts. That and Blood Starved Beast is also found inside a church. And here's what the description says on the Sword Hunter Badge,
Apparently item descriptions are fanfiction now.
Yea I found the info on the gamestop that he explained
The reason they exist is because Namco said "oh hey we'd love for you to create some videos for GameStop's new "community video vault" and I said, sure -I have some videos that i'd love to make with Dark Souls 2 footage. It's as simple as that really, and I hope we all understand that. After making these videos I kind of realised, oh wait..everyone's going to see this differently..and so I'm telling you telling you what happened now
I'm not tied to these videos in any other way than me doing a favor for Namco, and i'm also fairly happy that GameStop wanted to get people to create content.
No real reason to not believe him there.
Don't do that. Notice how you asked for an example, that's what I gave you. Sorry, it proved my point.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Read my edits, you confused an item description that was stated outright with "fanfiction."
KittenMaster
Member
This explains why so many people believe that is Ludwig (IMO Cleric Beast is a generic Cleric that had sealed the bridge, as there is an explanation of the clergy sealing the bridge and that bridge was supposed to lead to Cathedral Ward at one point thus alluding to Cleric Beast being more of a guardian than a historical figure).
Zomba13
Member
Well from the actual game the clerics have seemed to be the most hideous of the beasts. The Cleric beast is obviously a cleirc, Amelia was a vicar (they are a kind of cleric right?) and she was a big nasty dog monster. The skull she prays infront of also looks like it belonged to a hideous beast and that was the skull of one of the early church people right?
The thing with Cleric beast = Ludwig though I can't remember what things, if any, pointed to that so yeah, shouldn't be stated as fact but the clerics becoming the most hideous beasts? For the most part it seems right (which even fits into lore as they may have partaken in more of the blood thus had a greater transformation).
EDIT: plus that whole thing with him reading out an item description as fact. I mean, yeah unless the game is now straight up lying in the items It seems fact to me.
If the Cleric Beast was Ludwig wouldn't he give you the Radiant Sword Hunter Badge? This is my first Souls game but if this play through has taught me anything it's that item placement and drops are super important in From's form of storytelling. But Cleric Beast drops the badge not for Ludwig's blade or rifle, but for the Kirkhammer. Doesn't fit.
Edit: To clarify, the Clerics and those being close to the Church transforming into larger, more powerful beasts may as well be fact. There's enough evidence in game to suggest that. The Cleric Beast = Ludwig is pure speculation and there hasn't been any evidence in game, that I have seen, to suggest that is the case at all.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
What he drops also unlocks the hunter chief emblem.
Logically you'd assume that the first of the church hunters also happened to be the captain. But that's just speculation.
TatteredHat
Member
The plagiarism charges held enough weight in my eyes to no longer support the guy, plus I never did like his speculations.
Perhaps at some point yeah, but the description of the Radiant Sword Hunter Badge seems to suggest he's been dead for long enough that his Sword has become a symbol for the Church and is passed down to heirs of his will.
Besides which assuming he's the captain is just that: an assumption. There's nothing I've seen in game that says that Ludwig was ever the captain of the Church Hunters, just that he was the first and that many followed after. It also never directly states he was a Cleric, just that many of the hunters who followed were.
Check out this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/35mz7f/debunking_the_ludwig_is_the_cleric_beast_theory/
These points are raised as well as a few more and it even checks out with the Japanese script according to a poster there.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
If anything the theory that Ludwig is the madman in the Chalice holds more weight to me. The fact that Cleric Beast unlocks Kirkhammer is clear enough that he's not Ludwig, just a member of Healing Church clergy and perhaps even the Captain but not Ludwig.
Anyways, that's just a theory. What doesn't seem like just a theory however, is Vaati's plagiarism. How unfortunate.
Anyways, that's just a theory. What doesn't seem like just a theory however, is Vaati's plagiarism. How unfortunate.
It is really unfortunate especially since it seems to be something that could have been really easy to avoid.
The takeaway I had from Redgrave's response video was that all he, and most other people, really expect is a shot out of thanks and some recognition for the work the community puts into investigating this lore.
I think he said something along the lines of Vaati being an aggregator, not an innovator, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that as long as he's upfront about it.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Which is why I said that it's speculation. But there is evidence for those that support and those that don't support the theory.
If anyone wants extensive Bloodborne story/lore in written form, don't look any further than 'The Paleblood Hunt' by Redgrave
It's an incredible effort and is easily the best and most compact documentation of lore for the game.
It's an incredible effort and is easily the best and most compact documentation of lore for the game.
KittenMaster
Member
I do think there is far more evidence against Ludwig being the Cleric beast than for. The theory hinges on the assumption that every named character appears at some point and that every boss is one.
I'm struggling to see the evidence for the theory. You've mentioned yourself that the only piece of evidence (That Cleric Beast's badge unlocks the ability to purchase the Hunter Chief Emblem) relies solely on speculation. Where's the solid evidence?
There is actual in game evidence to suggest that Ludwig is not the Cleric Beast. If the Cleric Beast's Sword Hunter Badge had unlocked Ludwig's Holy Blade, the Rifle AND the Hunter Chief's Emblem, then that would be evidence.
But it doesn't. It unlocks the Kirkhammer and the Emblem, a weapon with no evidence to suggest it was ever used by Ludwig but was used by the Clerics of the Healing Church that followed Ludwig. Seems obvious to me that the Cleric Beast was a member of the Church, probably the Captain of the Church Hunters, that wielded a Kirkhammer. Not Ludwig.
Well, the Cleric Beast = Ludwig thing was pretty fanfictiony.
I really do like Vaati though, and his "lore explained" video was the best of this kind of video I've seen. He may or may not have copied that big ass document, but at least he cut a lot of the bullshit speculation taken out of nowhere. Which is exactly what people praising the document keep acusing him of doing (not always unfairly, I should say).
My favorite theory about Ludwig, even if it has absolutely no evidence and is pure fanfic, is that Ludwig could be a boss in the DLC, wielding the Moonlight Greatsword, making it so the Ludwig's Holy Blade is an attempt to imitate his magical sword, but without the magic thing. That would be the coolest shit in the universe.
But again, no one tries to pretend the game supports it, it's pure hopeful speculation.
Bronetta
Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
My interpretation of the "As it was, clerics became the most hideous of beasts" is that beasthood is like a spring effect. Clerics are able to resist it more but when they finally snap the recoil is much greater than normal Yharnamites leading to clerics becoming much more deformed beasts.
I assumed it was because they were more in touch with the old blood, and had a lot more of it than your regular yharnamites. Both work just as well, I guess.
KittenMaster
Member
I think it's because
they ingest more healing blood than anyone, so the beast plague has a far stronger effect on them.
This.
Watching the video now, it seems like Eileen taking the submit ending seems to be a very popular theory, even Vaati seems to believe in it, but I really can't see how that would be possible. Gehrman clearly states that you'll forget the dream if you submit to him. Unless there's some translation error I'm unaware of.
KittenMaster
Member
It's a theory that has been floating awhile long before this video came about (that and Djura as well). It's common to believe it foreshadows what the player will end up like if you choose that ending.
Yes, but it never made any sense to me, precisely because Gehrman states you'll forget the dream. Both Djura and Eileen remember the dream and mention it. They could have stopped dreaming for different reasons, unknown to the player.
KittenMaster
Member
I haven't really looked into it myself, I was just saying that it was a popular belief before Vaati made a video on it.
Maybe this will be the next mystery I think about with Bloodborne's lore.
Maybe this will be the next mystery I think about with Bloodborne's lore.
I enjoyed his videos at first but the thing that ended up bugging me about Vaati is that he almost never posts videos of him just playing the games. It's just over-produced lore video after lore video and news bits with his annoyingly pompous voice-over. It seems like he saw all the attention and hits that the Souls games were generating and saw dollar signs. I don't get the same joy of just playing and experiencing the games that I get from people like ENB or any of the other many streamers/youtubers that post videos. His channel feels very calculated.
Eh. I mean, I can see why that would make you no longer care about his channel, because it's not the kind of content you desire, that's perfectly fine, but for it to actually bother you? I don't see what's wrong with having a channel that's all about the things it's about. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯He even had that Hunter kill challenge, that was awesome, I wish he would make more of those.
His lore videos are so lame at times when you analyze them. At one point he said "I'm more interested in telling stories than data mining" or something dismissive like that.
His OIK video was pretty lame, and his link of Sir Alonne to smelter demon makes zero sense and shows an ignorance of the actual lore. (If you check out the weapons and souls you can see that Blue Smelter Demon was constructed by OIK, and the red one is one of many that live under the keep. And then after Ichorus Earth births itself within OIK's body he turns into a big naked smelter demon....but no its sir alone because isn't that emotional??? Heart strings I tug at thee!)
And his first big claim to fame, the Solaire video, has been dismissed like crazy with recent lore finds. The final nail in that coffin is that people re-assembled the statue of Gwyn's firstborn and found that it wields Ornstien's Spear and dresses like Gwyn. Turns out is Solaire is just a dude with a tragic story, and not a fallen god of war.
The Dark Souls lore community is kind of a mess. People emphatically defend youtubers more for having convincing SOUNDING arguments more than doing any lore considerations themselves. You can have all the item descriptions in the game sorted and collated, specific data points, and even analysis of sentence structures as proof that the item is saying one thing rather than another, and people will write you off for going against "common knowledge". I've been flat out told that I wasn't popular enough for my explanations of the story to be "valid". Fucking what? It's such a shit show. It's fucking infuriating to interact with unless you're doing the youtube shit.
His OIK video was pretty lame, and his link of Sir Alonne to smelter demon makes zero sense and shows an ignorance of the actual lore. (If you check out the weapons and souls you can see that Blue Smelter Demon was constructed by OIK, and the red one is one of many that live under the keep. And then after Ichorus Earth births itself within OIK's body he turns into a big naked smelter demon....but no its sir alone because isn't that emotional??? Heart strings I tug at thee!)
And his first big claim to fame, the Solaire video, has been dismissed like crazy with recent lore finds. The final nail in that coffin is that people re-assembled the statue of Gwyn's firstborn and found that it wields Ornstien's Spear and dresses like Gwyn. Turns out is Solaire is just a dude with a tragic story, and not a fallen god of war.
The Dark Souls lore community is kind of a mess. People emphatically defend youtubers more for having convincing SOUNDING arguments more than doing any lore considerations themselves. You can have all the item descriptions in the game sorted and collated, specific data points, and even analysis of sentence structures as proof that the item is saying one thing rather than another, and people will write you off for going against "common knowledge". I've been flat out told that I wasn't popular enough for my explanations of the story to be "valid". Fucking what? It's such a shit show. It's fucking infuriating to interact with unless you're doing the youtube shit.
jim2point0
Banned
Seems to me like he started creating fewer videos after opening up his Patreon account. I like that when Jim Sterling went independent via Patreon, he still kept up the same number of videos.
I really didn't know about any of this plagiarism stuff though. I used to be a big fan of his, too. I think I'll go subscribe to him just so I can unsubscribe
OniBarubary
Banned
Oh hey Gbraga, my BB Lore Buddy.
I know no one is using spoilers in here, but I'm gonna be a bit of a wuss and use them just in case.
If we're gonna get into Ludwig lore that the game implies vs. fan-fiction, than something a lot of people miss (due to not doing the non-requisite chalices)
Anyways, that's just my 2 cents on a bit of the derailbate. I already let my Vaati feelings be known, it's just unfortunate because the dude has a great voice for narration he just tends to over-reach and...well make stuff up as well as plagiarize.
I know no one is using spoilers in here, but I'm gonna be a bit of a wuss and use them just in case.
If we're gonna get into Ludwig lore that the game implies vs. fan-fiction, than something a lot of people miss (due to not doing the non-requisite chalices)
is there is a unique boss in the Lower Hintertomb chalice that is a serious strong contender for being Ludwig. He is a hunter that uses the Ludwig Sword and Rifle, wears the Madman set which he drops the badge for (which is a torn up version of the Tomb Prospector garb) and casts Augur of Ebrietas and A Call Beyond which means he had to be a high-ranking member of the Choir. Chances are that that's him much more than the Cleric Beast is, which is a real stetch at best.
Beyond that it's almost assured that the cracked skull in front of Vicar Amelia is Laurence's not Ludwig's and that the Bloodletting Beast in the chalices is Laurence due to his 2nd form which has that huge wound where a head should be.
Beyond that it's almost assured that the cracked skull in front of Vicar Amelia is Laurence's not Ludwig's and that the Bloodletting Beast in the chalices is Laurence due to his 2nd form which has that huge wound where a head should be.
Anyways, that's just my 2 cents on a bit of the derailbate. I already let my Vaati feelings be known, it's just unfortunate because the dude has a great voice for narration he just tends to over-reach and...well make stuff up as well as plagiarize.
Most of his Dark Souls 1 videos are pretty good though, imo. It's when he had to start making videos the moment the game was out instead of letting the community breathe, take the lore in and discuss it thoroughly that the problems really started to pop.
ENB himself has been playing Bloodborne for like a year before everyone else, and his Bloodborne Lore Video still isn't out.
Hiii~
I like this Ludwig speculation, but I still hope it's wrong just because I really hate chalice dungeons :')
Though I guess it could still be true while not removing the possibility of Ludwig being in the DLC in some form.
And man, Vaati's voice is just
I prefer TerraMantis' lore videos personally: https://www.youtube.com/user/TerraMantis/videos
In his follow up video, he mentions that he set two videos about the controversy to link only, do you have the link to the other one. ?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The only thing I disagree with is because the chalice dungeons are supposed to be completely separate from the main plot.