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Valve locks Dota 2 game modes behind Kickstarter-esque goals.
- Thread starter Archie
- Start date
Schweinehund
Member
Valve's dota 2 policies are the best out of any gaming moba company, but this doesn't make them some benevolent "for the gamer" entity. That is the point some people are trying to make.
I really think you don't know what a straw man argument is... It's only a strawman if I was using it as some argument against the policy in the first place. Shoot, you're attempt to call it a straw man is closer to a straw man argument than mine.
But hey, here comes all the people who want to feel better about themselves to agree with you. Great job!
Teletraan1
Banned
I agree. They should have contributed more of the donation to the prize pool. They already make money hand over fist on this game because they are a successful F2P model due to a rabid fanbase. If they would have figured out their costs to host the event and taken a cut from the goals based on that it would have sat better with me. Here they have already made over 10mil which will more than cover their costs. It is sleazy but with that knowledge nobody has to donate. I would never donate to anything that the majority of the donation does not go towards the goal. Period.
Do you have anything to say that is on topic anymore? Are you filling in the "I must feel superior on the Internet" quota for the day?
The rest of the money is used to fund for the actual tournament venue.
The rest of the money is all ready added to the prize pool and it's all ready the largest in the history in e-sports. It's not sleazy stop saying stupid stuff like this what you don't know how it works..have you ever bought the compendium last year? I guess not.
But where are people ignoring that influence? Valve's ability to do this is a product of everything they've done with Dota's business model to this point, which includes giving a ton away for free.
A lot of people ignore that you also get 10 dollars worth of bonuses or items from the compendium (just like last year), its not giving away money just for the prize pool, that's just the primary incentive.
It's the best 7 euro's i spended last year and this year again. They don't know..they just don't know what you get for all that money.
Also the battle bonus can get you free items from just playing the game, which then you can sell on the marketplace, i know people that made money just because they got a decent drop from leveling.
I even sold some items on the community marketplace that have bought me some games from it. The battlepoints booster is amazing leveled very fast last year now even more with the new compendium.
dat skinner box
I don't know, maybe if people actually argued against my point instead of the whole "This guy goes against my stance, I'll just ignore what he's actually saying" and "This guy is confident in his stance, he must be trying to compete for the alpha male position" schticks from people like you.
You do realize that doesn't make it a strawman, right? I had my argument and made it. The topic changed because people responded to my argument instead of the primary one. It was related to the topic at first, but you guys made it the dominant discussion here, not me.
Speaking of ignorance.
Oh, you're actually addressing it. Thank you.
My point is that even with all that, it doesn't stop the fact that they're charging to prioritize things rather than something like a community poll. Good things don't make the bad things nonexistent, like a lot here seem to be acting like. Does it mean Valve overall is bad or even no great? No. Does it even make the overall system bad? Depends on the person. Does it mean that the bias from what good they do creates an attitude that the negatives don't exist or don't matter to the point where people act as though there were never any negatives in the first place? Yeah.
Only a strawman if I was using that arguing to sway the original argument. A straw man is an argument that changes the argument to argue the original argument. My argument was related to the original argument, but not the original argument in itself or an attempt to argue it. Not a strawman.
See, a strawman argument would go like this...
"This is a horrible thing!"
"No, its not"
"Oh, you're just a fanboy who blind himself. Conclusion, it is a horrible thing!"
What actually happened...
"I see a lot of people defending this while completely ignoring the negatives of this. I see that as hypocritical to how they treat negatives done by other companies."
Except the entire point of that post was that I was not saying that... :/
Oh, and thanks for cutting off the rest of it. Definitely represents what i was trying to say there with just that.
jediyoshi
Member
Do I just need to reiterate what kickstarter is? Do you think funding of the development of those modes is actually predicated on compendium funds? Or do you not see people making the distinction between the terminology of something being "locked"?
I wasn't making a qualitative statement on it, I'm saying you're responding on people questioning what you're saying by restating it.
"X is bad"
"Why?"
"Because X is bad"
So, basically, you just admitted to derailing a thread by posting an argument irrelevant to the original discussion, at the same time as you blame others for derailing the original discussion?
And before you even made an argument pertaining to the actual topic, you pointed out that the task force was out and that EA could never get away with this. I don't see how that's not trying to sway an argument.
These posts are clear, without having to go "LOL VALVE FANS":
Fried Food
Banned
they aren't forcing you to buy anything
and some will just ignore it and continue to praise gaben... smh
blitzcloud
Banned
the kind of valve I don't want, this sort of high caliber publisher where they have the players doing the game content for a small cut or this.
Then again, if heavy milking is working so well with them, i'm not the one who's gonna complain.
Then again, if heavy milking is working so well with them, i'm not the one who's gonna complain.
Haunted
Member
At this point people should probably stop piling on Theo, he's been pummeled enough for derailing the thread. :lol
I wonder what happens if the goals aren't met (I assume these gamemodes are already in development). I suppose their economists have done a lot of calculations to make sure this won't happen.
I wonder what happens if the goals aren't met (I assume these gamemodes are already in development). I suppose their economists have done a lot of calculations to make sure this won't happen.
*sigh* it's all ready added to the prize pool..still not getting it. You get more money's worth out of the compendium and your not forced to buy it at all..and i guess you didn't even bought it last year..just to have the sake of argument that is irrelevant to this.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
So these already funded game modes don't need KickStarters, then?
I don't know... this is smelling like the start of something I don't want to be a part of...
Raising money for the tournament and the cup is one thing. I'm all for that.
Why have you branded everyone here and challenging your point, a valve supporter and a hypocrite?
The OP claimed that "I feel this is kinda sleazy, especially since Valve usually gives us new content like this for free." People argued against that by stating what was already clear on the website, and demonstrating that this has happened in previous year with character development
Your opening statement was:
The fact that that was your opening statement actually says more about you than the previous posters.
Not only is that inflammatory, it branded everyone as some sort of valve loyalist, when the thread was not about Valve as a company at all but the concept of having free content behind a tier that has a financial goal, in what is a fundraiser for a prize pool goal rather than a typical kickstarter "funding development goal"
Now, your argument from the get go after the blanket statement specifically and unnecessarily about Valve, is that we should be viewing a negative about this whole issue, because people are paying to gain that access. Correct?
I think when it comes down to it, it is a bit of semantics. I specifically bought the compendium to help add to the prize pool and take part in the compendium activities, so the goals were not really of consequence. There of course may be others that specifically wanted to get to that goal of a new mode, and ultimately it is their own it is to there own volition.
To get mad at a specific company for having it as a goal to me is hard to grasp in this circumstance. These seem like the unlocking of bonuses rather than the payment for a goal because the compendium is genuinely valuable and provides a lot of items often worth more than the actual compendium itself, so it is hard to see it as being ripped off.
You mean when I said that my argument was related to the original subject?
... No. God no. I don't know why people are so obsessed with blaming me for having an opinion related to the topic when they're the ones who jumped on it.
Because it wasn't. I said multiple times my point wasn't on whether its good or bad, only that there are definitive negatives there. And that those negatives could easily make a cohesive argument against it in the same vein as we see with a lot of the hate we see on stuff like EA does.
iI you think that's trying to sway the argument over whether its good or bad, then good luck in life.
Already addressed the primary issue you seem to have here of me "branding people"
As for the rest of it... You continue to misrepresent me and my argument, so shove off until you do otherwise.
Hmm, up until now I had no idea "Compendium" was a thing, but from what I've read it sounds pretty awesome. It gives players an opportunity to directly contribute to the community, gives a big boost to the more competitive side of things, and also makes Valve a nice chunk of money. The people who contribute seem to get a rather good deal most of the time, and I don't see anything particularly sleazy about connecting a game mode that everyone will receive to something that is very much a benefit to the community anyway. I wish more companies would inject some of this into their business models, because it seriously sounds like the epitome of win-win-win.
I bought this years already and have last years, my point was I can see how people want valve to give a larger share of the prize pool since it's one big dota commercial. They're definitely coming out ahead on this.
TIL, people posting about how this is a donation or a kickstarter, dont even realize you are actually getting a product out of your 10 dollars before you even factor in any of the goals or the prize pool.
Compendium + 200% base battle boost, + Courier would easily be more then 10 dollars on the market place, then you factor in every goal.\
Edit: The Valve gets a pass on the forums bit is very very hilarious in retrospect now that all of the one-liner posters that dont even read anything related to the OP before posting show up
Compendium + 200% base battle boost, + Courier would easily be more then 10 dollars on the market place, then you factor in every goal.\
Edit: The Valve gets a pass on the forums bit is very very hilarious in retrospect now that all of the one-liner posters that dont even read anything related to the OP before posting show up
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
We knew Valve was headed in this scumbag direction. It was only a matter of time. I bet Left 4 Dead 3 will be an Early Access game too.
Last year they made some mistakes on those goals when reaching a sum of money they addressed it this year and that is good since now we can see what the goals are. Dota 2 is getting bigger and bigger this year it's goes to a even bigger place where TI4 is hosting.
What the hell are you talking about? Scumbag direction..since when this become a thing? Holy shit it's amazing how people do not read or don't do research before saying stupid shit like this.
I like your style. "VALVE DEFENSE FORCE PLS, DIS SLEAZY" "No it's not" "You continue to misrepresent my argument."
Pretending you're calm and neutral only works if you haven't already insulted everyone you are arguing against.
So we should make your arguments for you, because you can't be bothered? And it's clearly what you're doing intentional or not, as other have pointed out. But good luck in life being so painfullly lacking in self-awareness.
If you really did think that "it wasn't good or bad" then why did you jump into this thread flaming people defending it? If the value is subjective, then why did you spend 10% of your time here debating the merits of the compendium and 90% of your time attacking Valve fans?
Please tell me clearly and concisley:
- What your arguments is?
- Why have I miss represented you / What exactly is it that I have said that is different to your argument?
- Define each of the "negatives" in bullet points so that I can address each one
Just to be clear, I'm a fan of DOTA. I like supporting the teams and tournament with pendants and the compendium. I think valve's stewardship of the game has been second to none. From a tactical decision though, I think they could have come out even more ahead by putting more in the prize pool due to it being equivalent to marketing their number one game. Especially when the tournament is making them money, a smaller sum than what they make throughout the year on items and the marketplace. And yes, the compendium is a great deal considering you can recoup the cost and then some reselling items to other players.
Dreams-Visions
Member
+1.
I got mine to buff the Prize Pool. I love this game, and the amount of content I'm getting for free and fun I've had more than justify it for me. Plus as stated, I'm getting more than my monies worth out of it. So...yea.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I bet Left 4 Dead 3 will be online.
Prototype Viktor
Member
The prize pool always flabbergasted me. It's like if a bookie took money on something and gave the players some of it and didn't have to payout to those in it.
Maybe if the bookie gave you in exchange for your wager goods of equal or greater value to your bet. Which in that case it's nothing like that.
This has to be the most idiotic thing I've read in a while. You don't decide what I'm arguing, just because you want to call it a strawman. For goodness's sake... THAT'S a strawman.
That's sort of the problem here. As soon as the argument becomes that people are being hypocrites, it becomes "attacking" to those people. As soon as people see it as attacking, they ignore the actual argument for why its hypocritical. There's a reason I wanted to leave, because I saw people getting in this stance. I do
I've said it countless times now. My argument is that it is hypocritical that people are just ignoring the negatives and defending it like it is 100% justified, when something like this would attacked relentlessly for a company like EA or others hated similarly. That it is better to put aside the bias that clouds people to negatives to companies like Valve and positives for companies like EA. Again, not even exclusive to them, just the prime examples.
You misrepresent my argument by saying I'm "branding" people, or that I'm trying to attack Valve. Or that, as a whole, this is a negative. In general, you simply appeared to have little understanding of what I'm trying to say. You restated other's arguments in ways that are not accurate is not welcome in any environment.
The big thing that's obviously negative and people ignore is that they're charging for the prioritization of content rather than a community poll or something of the like. Again, I personally have no opinion because I don't play the game. But its extremely easy to see what would happen if a company like EA did something like this. People would say they already have the money to make it and just want more, or already made the content and are holding it back. Very typical responses you see to a lot of policies by companies. Does it make the policy bad overall? Depends from person to person.
+1 also
Never been involved other than this year and still not much of a player, but really liking the compendium already. So much more interactive and fun than a tradition programme, and plenty of value in game and particularly during the competition. I don't think I would be this excited for it unless I was actually attending a sporting event and taking in the atmosphere
blitzcloud
Banned
Yeah, the problem here is not the fact itself.
It's both the precedent it creates (like crates on tf2)
And the low cut the actual event contenders/creator gets.
It's both the precedent it creates (like crates on tf2)
And the low cut the actual event contenders/creator gets.
You said you didn't want to argue that point and nebulously referred to DRM & and shovelware, I clearly have highlighted in previous posts where you made that statement. So go ahead and continue to denegrate yourself. Others have clearly and concisely pointed out why your argument was a prototypical strawman argument.
Coffee Dog
Banned
That is a strawman statement. Where are these people that you are addressing? If they do not exist, or are not present in this discussion, tjen you have created a straw man.
Besides that fact that it has already occurred last year, Valve pays for the entire venue, and the prize pool doubled last year, and is looking to be even higher this year?
Edit: Also you get more then 10$ worth of items/bonuses out of the box before any goals and you have the compendium itself.