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[Ravager61]

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/vanguard/review.html

7.5

The Good: Lively combat makes for fun group questing; diplomacy gameplay is an enjoyable way to involve players in npc dialogue; the complex crafting is interesting and rewarding.

The Bad: Bugs, bugs, and more bugs; forced grouping will leave solo players cold; stiff death penalty and lack of instanced dungeons are as frustrating now as they were in everquest's early days.

Spoiler

I REALLY wish my computer could run this. As soon as I get more ram, im in.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

The Bad: Bugs, bugs, and more bugs; forced grouping will leave solo players cold; stiff death penalty and lack of instanced dungeons are as frustrating now as they were in everquest's early days.

Spoiler

I REALLY wish my computer could run this. As soon as I get more ram, im in.

Ack. After the shitasticness of FF11's forced party system, I refuse to play MMOs with similar systems.

 

[Ravager61]

Ack. After the shitasticness of FF11's forced party system, I refuse to play MMOs with similar systems.

Ill never understand this mentality. The entire point of a MMO is to play with OTHER PEOPLE. Why would you pay x ammount per month to solo?

 

[LegatoB]

Ill never understand this mentality. The entire point of a MMO is to play with OTHER PEOPLE. Why would you pay x ammount per month to solo?

A lot of us who play MMOs like the option of still being able to do something if we're online when our friends aren't or are busy doing something else. I, at least, don't like to make a habit of soloing, but if I can make that last push toward another level without having to rely on a party, it's a big help.

 

[echoshifting]

Ill never understand this mentality. The entire point of a MMO is to play with OTHER PEOPLE. Why would you pay x ammount per month to solo?

There's a difference between forced grouping and grouping simply being preferable/advantageous. Sitting around, unable to get a group for five hours, just because you picked an extremely popular or undesirable class, is not fun.

Anyway, 7.5 is not that good of a score. The bar has been set higher than this. Don't get me wrong, I know it's not all about the score itself, but there are obviously better games in the genre either on the market already or coming to the market soon enough.

 

[Y2Kev]

Forced grouping usually requires a massive time commitment.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

Ill never understand this mentality. The entire point of a MMO is to play with OTHER PEOPLE. Why would you pay x ammount per month to solo?

Have you played FF11? Probably not. You can't do ANYTHING without a perfectly balanced 6 person party. And I do mean, anything. You spend hours upon hours searching for a party, then when you find one that's good someone has to go and you're screwed again.

WoW does this much better. It allows you to solo-play when you want, then promotes partying for the instances and bigger dynamic things.

 

[Grayman]

I can't believe they called non instance a bad feature.

 

[Ravager61]

Anyway, 7.5 is not that good of a score. The bar has been set higher than this. Don't get me wrong, I know it's not all about the score itself, but there are obviously better games in the genre either on the market already or coming to the market soon enough.

Wow this aint. There is a large portion of MMO fans out there that have been frustrated by what WoW has done to the genre and this game basically ignores WoW and goes its own way. Its complex and its hard yes, but in that difficulty lies the reward of playing. I guess you could call WoW better in that its been out a lot longer and been patched a lot, but comparing these 2 games isnt fair. They set out to do different things and cater to completely different audiences.

 

[Ynos Yrros]

Time bitch! Do you have it?!

 

[echoshifting]

I can't believe they called non instance a bad feature.

Man, some of you guys have really strange ideas about what qualifies as 'fun' in a MMORPG (as opposed to 'outdated'). I guess this game just isn't for me.

Wow this aint. There is a large portion of MMO fans out there that have been frustrated by what WoW has done to the genre and this game basically ignores WoW and goes its own way. Its complex and its hard yes, but in that difficulty lies the reward of playing. I guess you could call WoW better in that its been out a lot longer and been patched a lot, but comparing these 2 games isnt fair. They set out to do different things and cater to completely different audiences.

I guess I'll just sit here and see how this one does!

 

[Sinatar]

Ill never understand this mentality. The entire point of a MMO is to play with OTHER PEOPLE. Why would you pay x ammount per month to solo?

Because it gives you something to do WHILE waiting to get a group, allows you some achievement while waiting. Seriously, in EQ and FFXI you can sit there for 4 - 5 HOURS without being able to do a damn thing due to no groups being available.

I do think WoW took soloing too far, it is actually preferable to grouping in terms of XP intake. You should be able to solo and make progress but grouping should be preferable.

 

[Ravager61]

Have you played FF11? Probably not. You can't do ANYTHING without a perfectly balanced 6 person party. And I do mean, anything. You spend hours upon hours searching for a party, then when you find one that's good someone has to go and you're screwed again.

WoW does this much better. It allows you to solo-play when you want, then promotes partying for the instances and bigger dynamic things.

I havent played FF11 but I have played Everquest which was similar and enjoy grouping much more than soloing. If people can solo, why make the effort to group? Grouping is just better imo.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

Time bitch! Do you have it?!

Actually, it's:
[Time][female dog][Do you have it?] :lol

 

[Eteric Rice]

I'll get this game in a few months. I NEVER EVER buy a MMO when it's just released. It's like suicide.

 

[White Man]

Not being able to solo means I am totally uninterested. No instances is mind boggling.

 

[Ravager61]

Not being able to solo means I am totally uninterested. No instances is mind boggling.

Instances are the worst thing that have ever happened to MMOs.

 

[LegatoB]

Yeah, because man, I really HATE not having to spend all day fighting other players to get credit for killing the boss and get my chance at phat loot.

 

[Ynos Yrros]

Actually, it's:
[Time][female dog][Do you have it?] :lol

Thanks for your politically correct correction of my wording . Anyway, this game is all about relationships and relationships require time, and time isn't free in 2007. Unless you get money for playing games.

 

[echoshifting]

Yeahhhhh the more I think about it, it's not a different audience thing, you guys are just masochists. You'd have to be to think that instances are horrible and forced grouping is great.

 

[Ravager61]

Yeah, because man, I really HATE not having to spend all day fighting other players to get credit for killing the boss and get my chance at phat loot.

This just doesnt happen very often. But you know, youre right, I hate interacting with other players in a virtual world. Id rather be isolated from everyone while I solo my way through the game.

 

[May16]

I'll get this game in a few months. I NEVER EVER buy a MMO when it's just released. It's like suicide.

Truth. Let 'em work out some of the bigger bugs first. Always best.

 

[Y2Kev]

How does it work with no instance?

 

[Vyse The Legend]

I havent played FF11 but I have played Everquest which was similar and enjoy grouping much more than soloing. If people can solo, why make the effort to group? Grouping is just better imo.

You didn't need a 6-person party composed of specific characters (i.e., a white mage, damage dealer, red mage/bard, 2 tanks) to kill all monsters in EQ. It's too strict and forced in FF11, and I'm sorry it sucks a lot. Until you've spent 8 hours in a single day searching for a decent party (like I have), there's no way you can understand.

Vanguard sounds pretty similar, and so I cannot fathom it being any fun.

 

[MrPing1000]

I'll get this game in a few months. I NEVER EVER buy a MMO when it's just released. It's like suicide.

WoW was the exception to this rule

 

[Clouseau]

How does it work with no instance?

You sit around with other people waiting for mobs/bosses to respawn and then trying to get the tap first so you don't have to keep waiting. Now that's fun!

 

[Ravager61]

You didn't need a 6-person party composed of specific characters (i.e., a white mage, damage dealer, red mage/bard, 2 tanks) to kill all monsters in EQ. It's too strict and forced in FF11, and I'm sorry it sucks a lot. Until you've spent 8 hours in a single day searching for a decent party (like I have), there's no way you can understand.

Vanguard sounds pretty similar, and so I cannot fathom it being any fun.

Actually, its extremely similar to Everquest in many ways (including sharing the same lead designer) so dont expect it to be like FF11.

 

[Y2Kev]

You sit around with other people waiting for mobs/bosses to respawn and then trying to get the tap first so you don't have to keep waiting. Now that's fun!

I can't see this working at all. I mean why would you even avoid instances?

 

[Ravager61]

You sit around with other people waiting for mobs/bosses to respawn and then trying to get the tap first so you don't have to keep waiting. Now that's fun!

Competition for mobs is part of the gameplay, especially on PVP servers. Imagine running into a dungeon with your guild and encountering another rival guild within the dungeon. Battles can ensue in competition for the mob, where the better guild will win. All you WoW people who have never played any other MMO need to realize, WoW doesnt do everything right, and its probably the easiest mmo ever.

 

[LegatoB]

I can't see this working at all. I mean why would you even avoid instances?

Because instances TAKE YOU OUT OF THE VIRTUAL WORLD AND RUIN IMMERSION, I guess. Either way, you're still all trying to kill the same boss who respawns every few minutes.

 

[madara]

This just doesnt happen very often. But you know, youre right, I hate interacting with other players in a virtual world. Id rather be isolated from everyone while I solo my way through the game.

Lol, good point. While I enjoy wow its surely soulless in that way. I just stopped buffing folks that passed or helped them during fight. Never any talk, interaction or thank you. Its mental but today mmorpger wants a world with other folks but only on their terms, otherwise they solo.

 

[Lain]

So it's another craptacular MMO from Brad McQuaid that is not fun for people with a life, with outdated ideas at its core to try and make it seem hardcore and with a sparkle of the usual bugs that plague all the MMORPGs, especially the ones Brad and SOE make? Color me surprised, i would have never guessed, especially from playing the beta!

 

[Ravager61]

I can't see this working at all. I mean why would you even avoid instances?

Because the point of an mmo is to encourage player interaction.

 

[White Man]

Instances are the worst thing that have ever happened to MMOs.

Instances are probably the only reason I still play MMOs.

 

[johnsmith]

Ravager61 needs to go back to 1998. There's a reason WoW is the success it is. Because it's good. People prefer being able to solo. People prefer instances and not having to camp rare spawns.

You might prefer EQ's outdated system, but you're in the minority.

Vanguard is a bomb. Everybody knows it.

 

[Clouseau]

Competition for mobs is part of the gameplay, especially on PVP servers. Imagine running into a dungeon with your guild and encountering another rival guild within the dungeon. Battles can ensue in competition for the mob, where the better guild will win. All you WoW people who have never played any other MMO need to realize, WoW doesnt do everything right, and its probably the easiest mmo ever.

I've played plenty of MMOs starting back with Ultima Online thanks. And WoW has both kinds of encounters....instanced and non-instanced.

I can't see this working at all. I mean why would you even avoid instances?

Not having instances keeps the game one fluid world. But honestly...I'd rather have my own instance with my small group or raid that we can enjoy together. WoW does it right by having both kinds of encounters. There are outdoor raid bosses/elite quest mobs where the other faction can come kick your ass while you are trying to kill it and there are instances to just enjoy with your friends.

 

[Teknopathetic]

Vanguard would've been considered a great MMO in like 2000-2001. As a 2007 game it's gameplay is just *too* dated.

 

[Ravager61]

Instances just completely remove you from the world. The point of an MMO is to play with other players on a massive scale. My problem with instances is that im paying to play online with other players but when I enter an instance the game becomes Diablo. Why would I pay a monthly fee to play a game when I can get a similar experience from something like Guild Wars or Diablo? The same point can be applied to soloing.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Instances just completely remove you from the world. The point of an MMO is to play with other players on a massive scale. My problem with instances is that im paying to play online with other players but when I enter an instance the game becomes Diablo. Why would I pay a monthly fee to play a game when I can get a similar experience from something like Guild Wars or Diablo? The same point can be applied to soloing."



People have already responded to this. Forced grouping is a *bad* thing. Having grouping be the optimal way to progress is great, having it be the ONLY way is bad.

As far as instances go, I'm half and half on it, however, that's largely because I haven't had to sit and camp a respawn for an hour in a few years.

 

[ManaByte]

Diplomacy is the best addition to any MMO in a long time.

 

[Ravager61]

People have already responded to this. Forced grouping is a *bad* thing. Having grouping be the optimal way to progress is great, having it be the ONLY way is bad.

And again I say, Why would people group if they can solo? What is their insentive to go about finding a group? A lot of people arent going to take the time to group unless its necessary, regardless of if they enjoy grouping are not. People take the quickest route to the top.

 

[White Man]

The same point can be applied to soloing.

Because sometimes I want to group, sometimes I want to solo, but I *always* want to be advancing my characters.

And again I say, Why would people group if they can solo? What is their insentive to go about finding a group? A lot of people arent going to take the time to group unless its necessary, regardless of if they enjoy grouping are not. People take the quickest route to the top.

INSTANCES! Doing harder quests that would be difficult to solo.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"And again I say, Why would people group if they can solo? What is their insentive to go about finding a group? A lot of people arent going to take the time to group unless its necessary, regardless of if they enjoy grouping are not. People take the quickest route to the top."


And I say again: Having grouping be the OPTIMAL way to progress isn't the same as having it be the only way. You CAN have both and have people who choose to solo move at a fairly slower pace than those who group. That way players can solo WHILE waiting for a group instead of sitting around being dead weight. AND players who picked unfortunate classes can do something while they're waiting for some group to pick them to go along.


"Diplomacy is the best addition to any MMO in a long time."

The best additions to MMOs are ones that affect player-player interaction.

 

[LegatoB]

And again I say, Why would people group if they can solo? What is their insentive to go about finding a group? A lot of people arent going to take the time to group unless its necessary, regardless of if they enjoy grouping are not. People take the quickest route to the top.

Why do you care how other people play the game? If they want to avoid grouping and play on their own in a huge world filled with other people to trade and chat with if they wish, why not? Why does grouping have to be forced upon the player?

 

[White Man]

Why do you care how other people play the game? If they want to avoid grouping and play on their own in a huge world filled with other people to trade and chat with if they wish, why not? Why does grouping have to be forced upon the player?

Exactly. WoW lets people play they want to play in regards to grouping. I don't understand how anyone can see this as a bad thing. Prescriptive grouping means I can't play at 3am because there will be like 3 people to group with and they will likely be as drunk and retarded as myself.

 

[Ravager61]

Why do you care how other people play the game? If they want to avoid grouping and play on their own in a huge world filled with other people to trade and chat with if they wish, why not? Why does grouping have to be forced upon the player?

Because how other people play the game affects how I play the game. Its massively MULTIPLAYER. Its obvious that the thread title should be changed to include " WoW players stay out" because this game just isnt for you.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Doesn't the "gold mob" system replace instancing in Vanguard? Or did they ditch that?

 

[Ravager61]

Im not here to argue that grouping isnt more time comsuming than soloing. What I am here to argue is that, the more hardcore mechanics of Vanguard like grouping and a lack of instances adds to the challenge of the game, which adds to the reward of the game, which in turn, adds to the fun of the game.

I feel more of a sense of accomplishment if I beat Ninja Gaiden then if I beat Mario. Its the same thing. The more challenge there is, the more reward.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"What I am here to argue is that, the more hardcore mechanics of Vanguard like grouping and a lack of instances adds to the challenge of the game, which adds to the reward of the game, which in turn, adds to the fun of the game."

The thing is, there's no real challenge to waiting in a city for a group or waiting for a mob to respawn. That's just poor game design. It's "hardcore," but in a more self-deprecating and masochistic sort of way.

 

[Ravager61]

The thing is, there's no real challenge to waiting in a city for a group. That's just poor game design.

God forbid you have to put a little effort into playing. Plus Vanguard provides plenty of other things to do besides combat. Crafting is incredibly deep and the Diplomacy system is an all new MMO feature that is supposedly a lot of fun.

Plus, if you join a guild, grouping shouldnt be much of a problem.