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[LegatoB]

God forbid you have to put a little effort into playing. Plus Vanguard provides plenty of other things to do besides combat. Crafting is incredibly deep and the Diplomacy system is an all new MMO feature that is supposedly a lot of fun.

So it's okay if crafting is your thing, but it's not okay if fighting some enemies on your own while interacting with other players?

Plus, if you join a guild, grouping shouldnt be much of a problem.

Maybe in an ideal world.

 

[White Man]

Grouping is a problem even within guilds. You still have to hope that someone has the exact same goals of you at the exact same time. And like I mentioned before, required grouping makes things impossible to do when you are doing 3am sessions. You probably count that as adding to the difficulty and fun, though.

 

[Grayman]

Why are we making a jump from no instances to multiple hour camps while discussing the ideal of not instancing?

My opinion is that running into people somewhere is better than not. You can work with or against them. The world feels much more massive by not having instances.

 

[Eteric Rice]

I think what many hated was the "waiting" part in EQ. It took me two years to complete my Mage epic quest, mainly because some of the spawns were on one week timers, and the others I had to kill for 3 days straight to get the piece of the weapon.

If they could do away with that, but make the game challenging, it'd be good. WoW is just to damned easy, really.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"God forbid you have to put a little effort into playing. Plus Vanguard provides plenty of other things to do besides combat."

Waiting around is NOT effort.


"Crafting is incredibly deep and the Diplomacy system is an all new MMO feature that is supposedly a lot of fun."

Having a good crafting system is great, but not all players want to craft and sometimes you just want to kill stuff.


"Plus, if you join a guild, grouping shouldnt be much of a problem."

And that's just overly optimistic thinking. To think that at any given time your guildies are either interested in grouping at the time you want to and/or have a spot for you in a group their current group.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

Not to mention you have to find people within your level range.

 

[Grayman]

grouping in games that aren't based solo on grouping works good. When you have defined rolls like healer, tank, mage it doesn't work as well. Everyone has to be able to take care of themselves, then grouping isn't a problem because no one is useless(unless they suck at the same)

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

I played EQ, AO, FFXI, SWG, Planetside, Neocron, EQ2, and WoW


im glad WoW did things they way it did, whether that now makes me an WoW noob or not.

 

[Ravager61]

Grouping is a problem even within guilds. You still have to hope that someone has the exact same goals of you at the exact same time. And like I mentioned before, required grouping makes things impossible to do when you are doing 3am sessions. You probably count that as adding to the difficulty and fun, though.

Which I do. Its obvious WoW players are set in their ways and no amount of trying from me is going to convince you otherwise, but I feel the game needs to be defended from people that consider many of the features I like about the game, to be negative.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Which I do. Its obvious WoW players are set in their ways and no amount of trying from me is going to convince you otherwise, but I feel the game needs to be defended from people that consider many of the features I like about the game, to be negative."


Would it shut you up if I told you I quit WoW and have no intentions of going back ever? It's not a WoW player thing, it's a "This is some really dated shit that was phased out for a reason" thing.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

Which I do. Its obvious WoW players are set in their ways and no amount of trying from me is going to convince you otherwise, but I feel the game needs to be defended from people that consider many of the features I like about the game, to be negative.

I've never, ever played WoW. Nor do I have any intention of ever playing it. It's just poor game design.

 

[Ravager61]

I also want to point out that Vanguard is not simply WoW without soloing or instances as some people think it to be. It is designed around these mechanics. There are, I believe, 17 classes in the game, all of which are versital enough to fit within any group so none of the classes are considered undesireable in a group. This coupled with the fact that grouping is necessary, pretty much fixes the problem of sitting around waiting for a group. Yes its possible, but the potential wait time is minimal.

With good design, forced grouping can work and work well.

 

[White Man]

Which I do. Its obvious WoW players are set in their ways and no amount of trying from me is going to convince you otherwise, but I feel the game needs to be defended from people that consider many of the features I like about the game, to be negative.

So when you get to the doctor's office and you have to sit and wait for your appointment, is that challenging and fun, too? Beause with a good health plan, you don't have to pay monthly for that.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"There are, I believe, 17 classes in the game, all of which are versital enough to fit within any group so none of the classes are considered undesireable in a group. This coupled with the fact that grouping is necessary, pretty much fixes the problem of sitting around waiting for a group. Yes its possible, but the potential wait time is minimal."


Aren't you saying all of this with *no* actual playtime?

And also, FFXI had necessary grouping and Wait times were immeasurable.

 

[Ravager61]

Aren't you saying all of this with *no* actual playtime?

I was in the beta.

 

[Y2Kev]

So when you get to the doctor's office and you have to sit and wait for your appointment, is that challenging and fun, too? Beause with a good health plan, you don't have to pay monthly for that.

Yes, since you are putting effort into seeing the dentist.

 

[Fragamemnon]

Both when I played Dark Age of Camelot and WoW, I was in the highest-tier guilds on my server and was considered a very fine player (and was treated as such).

It was still hard to get together a group in off hours, or for the rare thing that no one else really needed or cared about.

As for instancing, it's essential to PvE content. The old days of camp checks and waiting for rare spawns on a timer by waiting in line on your server's calendar in EQ are gone and dead. They are a meaningless time sink and serve zero point other than to create player conflicts among non-PvP participants. If you want to force grouping there are ways to do that, but instances really do serve a useful purpose in these kinds of games.

I'm glad the crafting and diplomacy systems in the game are pretty good. Those are some things that WoW flubbed on for over a year with crafting, and never really bothered with anything like diplomacy. I hope they can find their niche, even if I want no part in it.

 

[LiveWire]

So it's another craptacular MMO from Brad McQuaid that is not fun for people with a life, with outdated ideas at its core to try and make it seem hardcore and with a sparkle of the usual bugs that plague all the MMORPGs, especially the ones Brad and SOE make? Color me surprised, i would have never guessed, especially from playing the beta!

/thread

I'm still stunned at the amount of support for FFXI's gameplay on this board. :lol Chalk it up to Japanophilia I guess?

 

[White Man]

/thread

I'm still stunned at the amount of support for FFXI's gameplay on this board. :lol Chalk it up to Japanophilia I guess?

The beta took like 3 hours to install and update on my 360, and after 15 minutes of gameplay, I erased it! Probably the worst MMO I have ever played.

 

[Fragamemnon]

/thread

I'm still stunned at the amount of support for FFXI's gameplay on this board. :lol Chalk it up to Japanophilia I guess?

I never understood that here, too-that one is truly a crap game, at least I got addicted to quality stuff. :lol I always chalked it up to Square fanboism and the fact that it was probably their first exposure to the genre.

 

[Fragamemnon]

The beta took like 3 hours to install and update on my 360, and after 15 minutes of gameplay, I erased it! Probably the worst MMO I have ever played.

Not nearly as bad as WW2 Online when it came out.

[20:30] <@Lum_> I'm playing ww2 offline
[20:30] <@Lum_> jesus this is bad
[20:30] <@Lum_> this is derek smart bad
[20:30] <@da_slog> need some tips?
[20:31] <@da_slog> Gameplay isnt that bad
[20:31] <@Lum_> how the **** do I FIRE A GODDAM RIFLE
[20:31] <@da_slog> ok
[20:31] <@Lum_> Left shit to pull up my rifle
[20:31] <@Grant> Put your eye to the barrel...
[20:31] <@Lum_> Mouse button 2 to AIM my rifle
[20:31] <Thundy|EQ> haha
[20:31] <@Lum_> Mouse button 1 to Fire
[20:31] <@da_slog> right mouse to aim [20:31] <@da_slog> too
[20:31] <@Naivete> lum, hit ctrl-alt-shift-tab-scroll lock-tilde
[20:31] <@Lum_> WHLIE HOLDING LEFT SHIF AND MOUSE 1
[20:31] <@Rasputin> dernit
[20:31] <@Lum_> WHAT THE ****

WW2O actually found a way to become a decent game for its players after a while. Anarchy Online was almost as bad and recovered well over time too. Can't say the same for FFXI.

 

[Eteric Rice]

No one answered my question.

Didn't they have a system in place that would spawn the mob when your group got to it? That way they didn't have to instance, and people could still interact? Because if they did, then that's cool.

 

[White Man]

Not nearly as bad as WW2 Online when it came out.



WW2O actually found a way to become a decent game for its players after a while. Anarchy Online was almost as bad and recovered well over time too. Can't say the same for FFXI.

Oh, Drinky was telling me about that game. It sounded like it was so wrapped up in its obsessive-compulsive levels of "realism" and detail that I'm really not shocked it found some sort of audience. I think that was the one he was talking about, anyway.

 

[Ravager61]

No one answered my question.

Didn't they have a system in place that would spawn the mob when your group got to it? That way they didn't have to instance, and people could still interact? Because if they did, then that's cool.

I think its still there. I remember them talking about this feature but I never got that far when I was in the beta.

 

[Brashnir]

I was in the beta.

then how do you not know that soloing is unbelievably easy in VG?

 

[Fragamemnon]

Oh, Drinky was telling me about that game. It sounded like it was so wrapped up in its obsessive-compulsive levels of "realism" and detail that I'm really not shocked it found some sort of audience. I think that was the one he was talking about, anyway.

There's a lot of online games that have their niche-this and Aces High! immediately come to mind-and while they aren't palatable for the everyday gamer, for those people looking for a niche online game, they deliver that VERY well.

I expect Vanguard will serve its niche in a similar manner. That's why in MMO reviews it is so important to try to point out when a particular game's feature should appeal to a specific part of your readership. For example, if I was reviewing a recent Dark Age of Camelot expansion, I would point out its still best-of-breed PvP system as a feature that fans of PvP would really enjoy compared to other MMO products.

 

[Ravager61]

then how do you not know that soloing is unbelievably easy in VG?

Because ive been following the game for a couple of years and know people currently playing. The entire point of the game from the outset has been to make a more hardcore mmo with little to no soloing, among of ther things.

 

[Drinky Crow]

since when are MMO's about grouping? who the **** wants to group? if they made WoW solo, it'd be even better; I consider the other players as unfortunate design flaws in an otherwise great game. On a good day, they're an assist to finish a quest early or a mark for discount kit that I don't wanna grind; on a bad day, they're like the rest of you dumb****s, only LIVE

well, okay, PvP is fun. other players are good to grief and kill, fer sure

 

[Azwethinkweiz]

I once spent 9 hours waiting in Jeuno for a party with my Dragoon. That right there is the reason I will never touch this game.

 

[Slayven]

People are looking at EQ with rosecolored glasses. It was 5 hours waiting for a group, 20 minutes fussing over who will pull, 30 minutes recovering from your first wipe, 15 minutes spent sitting on your butt because your cleric went to the bathroom, and at the end of it all you usually ended up with little xp or less xp then you started with.

WoW does alot of things right but my favorite is any combo of classes is viable for grouping.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"People are looking at EQ with rosecolored glasses. "


You give people too much credit. Some people actually enjoy that.

 

[Fragamemnon]

since when are MMO's about grouping? who the **** wants to group? if they made WoW solo, it'd be even better; I consider the other players as unfortunate design flaws in an otherwise great game. On a good day, they're an assist to finish a quest early or a mark for discount kit that I don't wanna grind; on a bad day, they're like the rest of you dumb****s, only LIVE

well, okay, PvP is fun. other players are good to grief and kill, fer sure

You can't patch users. Oh how I wish you could patch your fan base.

Also, WoW solo would be very interesting. Doing some of the crazy endgame fights RTS-style would actually be very interesting with capable enough AI.

 

[Slayven]

"People are looking at EQ with rosecolored glasses. "


You give people too much credit. Some people actually enjoy that.

Well some people love being hung from meathooks, to each his own. I just hate the logic you are not having fun in a MMOunless you are spending atleast 6 hours a day playing it.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

Ill never understand this mentality. The entire point of a MMO is to play with OTHER PEOPLE. Why would you pay x ammount per month to solo?

No it's not. The point is to interact with other players. Coop PvE leveling is not the only form of interaction in MMOs.

 

[krypt0nian]

Again White Man speaks my words.

It's getting scary. I do have to say that I was surprised that thye didn't use the word "asstacular" in the review. Seems a huge oversight.

 

[Brashnir]

Because ive been following the game for a couple of years and know people currently playing. The entire point of the game from the outset has been to make a more hardcore mmo with little to no soloing, among of ther things.

yeah, that's the party line they've been spewing, but if you had actually played the game, you'd know that reality states otherwise. If anything, the systems in place in the game are often inherently ANTI-grouping, or at the least, promote only very short-term grouping. The grouping encouragement in Vanguard is horribly, horribly broken.

 

[Ravager61]

yeah, that's the party line they've been spewing, but if you had actually played the game, you'd know that reality states otherwise. If anything, the systems in place in the game are often inherently ANTI-grouping, or at the least, promote only very short-term grouping. The grouping encouragement in Vanguard is horribly, horribly broken.

Care to elaborate on how it is anti-grouping? From what ive played of the game, from what ive read, and from what others have told me, everything you just said is wrong.

 

[Brashnir]

Care to elaborate on how it is anti-grouping? From what ive played of the game, from what ive read, and from what others have told me, everything you just said is wrong.

The quest system is thoroughly and completely anti-grouping. It creates an atmosphere where people will only group with others who are at the exact same point of the exact same quest as them, and will then ditch the group as soon as they get the piece they need.

There are no instances in the game, but quest drops for the vast majority of the quests in the game are instanced - meaning they only drop for you if you're on the specific required quest for the drop, and if they drop for one person in the group, everyone gets the item. This leads to people not wanting to join a group that is doing part 2 of a quest if they haven't yet completed part 1, since you can't get the needed items out of order, since the items don't really exist in the game world. They're just quest flags.

It's a completely broken system, and I can't for the life of me figure out why that of all things is the one they decided to borrow heaviest from WoW.

 

[Spiritreaver]

I'll take my forced grouping as opposed to forced solo. Boring. Only grouping with more than one other person once out of a week's play in a MMO is utterly retarded, WoW doesn't do it right. It just simplifies the game so that anyone can do it at any time. This is great for all those rather casual players, and I know it brings in th ebucks. I just don't find fun because more often than not no one really wants to group for in WoW, at least that's what I found aside from doing those instances.

Another I like about FFXI... forced grouping in PVP, ahh yes. None of that solo shit, it's all team based and heavily relied on other players to win. Brings out the best in players skillwise anyone who's actually played Ballista for more than a couple of matches understands how it works. If anything that's what keeps my playing, it keeps me interacting with my friends and new people. It keeps me interested period.

Doing shit on my own doesn't. Neither does a rather large community wiith an even larger portion of idiots than smaller MMOs. But in any case, it's not the gameplay that needs to be fixed in MMOs really. They all do it right for someone, it's the experience itself. Worlds, stories, fighting can all be captivating, but it never quite gets passed "playing a game" and into the world itself.

Whatever, fight the good fight Ravager.

 

[acksman]

I am another one thats on board with Vanguard. While it was total crap in Beta during most stages, it really turned a 180 in the last month of development, never seen anything like it. I have played EQ, DAoC, EQ2, WoW, etc and this game has serious potential. Its fun, the world is HUGE. I don't understand why people are really griping about instances when there is so much to spread out and explore. The grouping is good, but there is many classes that can solo just fine. In fact, its been shown people are progressing faster solo killing yellow/red two dot mobs than grouping.

I think many people that tried out the game in beta got a bad taste in their mouth, I was one of them. If you can get ahold of one of the 10 day free passes floating out there, give it a try again.

When you can, build you own boat (which is not on rails), build and own your own house (which is not instanced). Crafting and diplomacy which will shape how player cities interact eventually as the communities mature. The world is beautiful, combat is fun with a variety of classes. I just don't get all the nerd hate it has received. Is it buggy? yes, are they fixing things yes. Give it a month or two and it should be pretty polished and communities a bit more cohesive.

Brad posted they have surpassed 100k subscriptions, which is a pleasant surprise for the negativity that has surrounded the beta.

Anyway, not everyones cup of tea, WoW is the McDonald's of MMO's to me, may taste good, doesn't fill you up and has a shallow menu.