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[Slayven]

None of the closeted bigots touting "B-b-b-both sides" seem to want to label the Klan and Nazi groups as terrorist organizations and treat them as such.

None. Not one. No one playing this "violence is so wrong, omg! This is why trump won!" would say the same thing if an ISIS member got punched in the face in America. They're ONLY treating this differently because these terrorists are not Black or Brown but White. It's racist as shit. It's a disgusting double standard that drips of privilege.

Privilege is a hell of drug. Must be nice not to have any skin in the game or just not care beyond a funny little thought experiment.

 

[Not]

Off the top of my head:

Electorally
-Obviously, win back the White House
-Most importantly, this will allow us to get an attorney general, FBI director, and DHS heads that will prosecute far right terrorism to the furthest extent possible.
-More focus on elected positions that impact the justice system, particularly in local politics. Wealthy democratic donors should create a fund for backing challengers to, say, the top 10 most racist Attorneys General and Sheriffs. A little money goes a long way in these races, and like the tea party, once they're successful they can just use the threat of backing a challenger to gain leverage. This will make it more likely that local law enforcement will take crimes committed by the far right seriously, even in deep red territory.

Non-electorally
-Antifa should invest in drones for the next rally (Sept 11 at Texas A&M seems to be the next big one). Get face pictures of as many people there as possible, and turn what that one twitter account is doing into an operation, employing volunteers and paid staff (if we can get some donors for this) to identify the people who are at the rally and notify their family, employers, etc.
-Doxxing has been an underutilized tactic for antifascist efforts so far, I believe - in particular, emphasis should be placed on outing a few rank and file Stormfront and far right reddit accounts to make it clear no fascist is safe.
-Continue with massive counter-protest wherever far right rallies are held. Particular emphasis should be placed, for those who are willing to take the risk, of baiting the enemy into violent confrontation that is nevertheless unambiguously the Nazi's fault. We want them to be Bull Connor, unleashing violence on clearly peaceful protesters. We should be disciplined in not allowing the heat of the moment or the lust for revenge to cause us to sacrifice our long-term goals.

Obviously there's a lot more that could be done and is being done.. These are just a few examples of how, I hope, you can see that nonviolence doesn't mean passively letting the Nazis do what they want.

Your turn. How does violence fix this problem? Be specific, please. How do you think bombing the Texas A&M rally is going to go? Assassinating Richard Spencer? If you don't actually want to become a terrorist, how does cathartically punching Nazis and brawling with them on college campuses advance our agenda?

This is a good post. Thanks for challenging my perception. It's still easier said than done. I'd love to see what happens with the drone thing particularly, and see if that's even a little effective.

No bombs. No killing people. But if a guy who can't see other people as human because of melanin gets his teeth knocked in by society, literally and figuratively, it will have an effect. That's where my position ends.

 

[Skatterd]

By winning the battle of ideas. Which we have done in the past.

With the events of yesterday, the Nazis did everything they could to destroy themselves. They received no blessing from anyone other than other racists for their demonstration and actions. Thankfully, they lost yesterday.

The President can't even call them by name.
They are in fact emboldened by his statements and the news coverage.
The propaganda pushers at Fox News think literal nazis have "grievances worth talking about"

 

[The Wart]

There is nothing to "solve". Their ideology needs to be pushed back into the dark depths that it came from and not be allowed to fester into the cancer that almost took over the world some 70 years ago.

You need to treat it like the lethal cancer it is and not some pacific hippie movement that are holding hands and singing kumbaya.

Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Nazism almost took over the world when it was the ideology of a dictatorship governing one of the world's most advanced militaries, not because a bunch of neckbeards threw a parade. This is not remotely close to being the case now. Trump is repugnant and his base is white-supremacists, but he is also wildly incompetent and presides over a party so deeply fractured it is incapable of governing. He is also historically unpopular.

You want to beat the Nazis? Beat. Them. At. The. Ballot. Box. Vigilante violence is not going to help you with that end.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

That sounds easy to say when it's not your car or business that's getting destroyed. All the good they do they could still do without hurting random people. That's why they have the reputation of rioters who just riot for the sake of it

You are right, its easy for me to say. But my point still stands. Its a necessary inconvenience.
Most of the damage will be payed for by insurance companies or the government anyway, so its not like livelihoods are being destroyed.

 

[theCalamity]

By winning the battle of ideas.

I'm not going to debate my existence

 

[zoukka]

No, but being threatened is. And there isn't a clearer threat than subscribing specifically to a historical dead end ideology that rounded up people and gassed them and caused a World War.

Ummm... yes there is. Of course I would love to see nazism being rooted out everywhere, but just subscribing to whatever evil ideology isn't enough to make you an outlaw. It still comes down to what your actions are.

 

[Clockwork5]

They lost yesterday because people didn't give them ground. When they marched, others marched back. When they punched, others punched back. Ass whoopings held the line yesterday. If you aren't ready for that then stay where you are.

I disagree, they lost yesterday because tolerant Americans saw them for exactly what they are. Disgusting.

I share the same goal as you. I simply think the most effective way of accomplishing that goal is through exposing them. They did that for us yesterday and America became less tolerant of Nazism.

That last sentence sucks to even have to say.

I'm not going to debate my existence

I'm not asking you to.

 

[Psychoward]

Nazism almost took over the world when it was the ideology of a dictatorship governing one of the world's most advanced militaries, not because a bunch of neckbeards threw a parade. This is not remotely close to being the case now. Trump is repugnant and his base is white-supremacists, but he is also wildly incompetent and presides over a party so deeply fractured it is incapable of governing. He is also historically unpopular.

You want to beat the Nazis? Beat. Them. At. The. Ballot. Box. Vigilante violence is not going to help you with that end.

A bunch of neckbeards who killed three people and have the good graces of the president.

We already lost at the ballot box, it's time to punch some nazis.

 

[Jakten]

I've never in my life seen an Alt-Right/Nazi poster in Toronto.

Where are you seeing these so often?

They put them up in east York and a couple times around UofT they haven't in a couple months though. I've only seen them personally once. It starts of with huge letters HEY WHITE PEOPLE

 

[Ithil]

By winning the battle of ideas. Which we have done in the past.

With the events of yesterday, the Nazis did everything they could to destroy themselves. They received no blessing from anyone other than other racists for their demonstration and actions. Thankfully, they lost yesterday.

Are you going to drive a car through a crowd of Nazis in retaliation for yesterdays events? What exactly do you think that will accomplish? You aren't going to kill enough to actually do anything other than scare and embolden them. What is the endgame of the violent approach? Civil War?

I have a question.

How would you propose handling ISIS members?

 

[Slayven]

Ummm... yes there is. Of course I would love to see nazism being rooted out everywhere, but just subscribing to whatever evil ideology isn't enough to make you an outlaw. It still comes down to what your actions are.

Your actions are subscribing to racist murderers, your benefit of the doubt kinda ends there

 

[StormKing]

The alt right is a domestic terrorist group and they must be eliminated.

 

[Clockwork5]

A bunch of neckbeards who killed three people and have the good graces of the president.

We already lost at the ballot box, it's time to punch some nazis.

All I'm saying is that you will make a lot of enemies in the process. Enemies that could be allies if a different approach is taken.

 

[SirClinksAlot]

Of fucking course there are gaffers who are against people fighting back against fucking nazis.

 

[kmax]

Again. What does the violent approach accomplish? What does it do to gain support in the fight against racism and intolerance? What is the endgame?

Pragmatically speaking will it work?

Versus evil, if you perceive a threat that is jeopardizing your very existence and your way of life, you have every right to act in self-defence in order to accomplish order. To be disingenuous about that fact is completely irrational, but I suppose apologists will find any reason to justify evil to metastasize.

It's not that difficult to open a history book to see what Nazism is.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I have a question.

How would you propose handling ISIS members?

Whoa! But that's different. They want to hurt ME!

 

[Crossing Eden]

They did that for us yesterday and America became less tolerant of Nazism.

No it didn't.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

I have a question.

How would you propose handling ISIS members?

by having a dialogue of course! ideas will set them freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[theCalamity]

I share the same goal as you. I simply think the most effective way of accomplishing that goal is through exposing them. They did that for us yesterday and America became less tolerant of Nazism.

They exposed themselves. They weren't in hoods. They weren't hiding. They haven't been hiding for quite some time. They were loud and proud with this shit.

I'm not asking you to.

You can't debate my existence either.

 

[17 Seconds]

I'm not asking you to.

that's exactly what you're asking

 

[opoth]

Of fucking course there are gaffers who are against people fighting back against fucking nazis.

The paradigm of sanity and reason in their own deluded minds, I'm sure. Appeasers to everyone else.

 

[Lesath]

No it didn't.

Don't forget about this!

 

[pigeon]

So, it sounds like you are arguing that MLK was wrong then?

MLK kept a lot of armed bodyguards.

I feel like people who argue this don't have a great grasp on how protest works. MLK used non-violent resistance because he was opposing the government, which ultimately is a representation of the people. Fighting the government with guns doesn't work that well because people view that as an attack on them. But forcing the government to physically assault you makes people question whether they really are the kinds of people who are represented by that kind of violence.

These Nazis aren't a state organization. They are violent extremists espousing a genocidal ideology. Non-violence isn't going to expose anything about them people don't already know. But refusing to resist them will give people with Nazi leanings the signal that our society will condone and tolerate your hate, and emboldens them to come out into the open.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

You can't debate my existence either.

Or compromise it away. I swear people like that would be willing to bring segregation back if it'd keep the peace with bigoted terrorists.

 

[Stinkles]

Is anyone doing organized exposure? A website that identifies nazis for employer and community education?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Don't forget about this!

And this.

 

[Clefargle]

By winning the battle of ideas. Which we have done in the past.

With the events of yesterday, the Nazis did everything they could to destroy themselves. They received no blessing from anyone other than other racists for their demonstration and actions. Thankfully, they lost yesterday.

Are you going to drive a car through a crowd of Nazis in retaliation for yesterdays events? What exactly do you think that will accomplish? You aren't going to kill enough to actually do anything other than scare and embolden them. What is the endgame of the violent approach? Civil War?

We didn't beat the nazis through a battle of ideas, we did it through a battle of guns and bombs and machines

 

[royalan]

Again. What does the violent approach accomplish? What does it do to gain support in the fight against racism and intolerance? What is the endgame?

Pragmatically speaking will it work?

Shame.

These hateful fucks march proudly in the streets and boldly spread their idealogy because we've largely become a society that's forgotten the power of shame to tamp down toxic movements.

I don't care if these racist fucks stay racist fucks until the day they die, as long as the fear of a public humiliation and shame keeps them in the fucking furthest reaches of society where they belong.

 

[The Wart]

A bunch of neckbeards who killed three people and have the good graces of the president.

We already lost at the ballot box, it's time to punch some nazis.

I really, really hope you don't actually believe this.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

They show up with shields, batons and body armor and people still want to debate the merits of their ideas. They want people to stand back so they feel strong. They want pacifism to advance their cause. Fear of escalation drives them back, when they saw they were outnumbered and those numbers were willing to fight back they ran. It's pretty clear how address them.

 

[zethren]

They did that for us yesterday and America became less tolerant of Nazism.

No it didn't.

I'm not asking you to.

Yes you are.

 

[Rock And Roll]

Is anyone doing organized exposure? A website that identifies nazis for employer and community education?

Don't know about that but @yesyoureracist is doing the work of the Lord right now. Follow them on Twitter.

 

[D i Z]

I disagree, they lost yesterday because tolerant Americans saw them for exactly what they are. Disgusting.

I share the same goal as you. I simply think the most effective way of accomplishing that goal is through exposing them. They did that for us yesterday and America became less tolerant of Nazism.

That last sentence sucks to even have to say.


I'm not asking you to.

There are many ways to accomplish a task, I'll grant you that. But you kind of need to recognize the value of that person putting themselves in the way physically to even allow that exposure to happen.
The world wouldn't ever had tuned in if there wasn't a fight to begin with. It wouldn't have been an issue worth exposing and White nationalists would gain ground.
That fight and exposure was earned by those that locked arms and kicked back.

 

[Not]

Is anyone doing organized exposure? A website that identifies nazis for employer and community education?

https://twitter.com/YesYoureRacist

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Of fucking course there are gaffers who are against people fighting back against fucking nazis.

I don't blame them, we should be engaging them and trying to find a middle ground... but that's already happened and there is no middle ground with racism.

Tried to ignore them, they formed an echo chamber.
Tried to engage with them, they didn't want to know.
Tried to point out their racism, told you were a snowflake.
Tried to stop it, they elected a racist as President.

People need to realise that appeasing Nazis doesn't work, they don't want to listen to logic and reason, it didn't work in the 30s and it's not working now.

 

[Slayven]

Is anyone doing organized exposure? A website that identifies nazis for employer and community education?

https://twitter.com/YesYoureRacist

 

[And_Gignac]

What a timeline. Nonstop shitting on Dems, then still vowing to vote 3rd party unless the perfect candidate comes across. He is a Nazi enabler.

3rd party is not a viable option in the US.

I see few lies in that timeline. I see plenty in your post.

New Democrats political strategy was basically that. Try to appeal to white racists with welfare reform, "tough on crime" bills and all that other whistles. That's actual, legislative Nazi enableism.

 

[aeolist]

this is for the guy beaten with poles in that parking garage: https://www.gofundme.com/i-was-beaten-by-white-supremacists

 

[Psychoward]

I really, really hope you don't actually believe this.

Which part?

 

[Crosseyes]

Again. What does the violent approach accomplish? What does it do to gain support in the fight against racism and intolerance? What is the endgame?

Pragmatically speaking will it work?

The endgame is to in the end, force the state to act and use it's authority to suppress, persecute, and if necessary, kill the neo-nazi and alt-right threat that is threatening and killing American citizens.

Those giant police lines of riot shields, guns, and militarized vehicles have an actual threat that justifies that sort of violent response but were nowhere to be seen yesterday. Until the state authority treats those threats like the violent threat to America they are it comes down to the first line of defense heroes like Antifa, BLM, and DSA who are the first ones to spill blood in defense of America.

The biggest fear is when the police are eventually forced to intervene when things continue to escalate, which side will they turn their shields and guns on and which side will they put to their backs?

 

[norm9]

Which part?

Perhaps this-

https://twitter.com/kahinasekkai/status/896675947952431104

 

[Crayons]

if you punch a nazi youre just as bad as them!!! omg violence so wrong. just tell the nazi why hes wrong im sure he'll understand!

 

[pigeon]

I see few lies in that timeline. I see plenty in your post.

New Democrats political strategy was basically that. Try to appeal to white racists with welfare reform, "tough on crime" bills and all that other whistles. That's actual, legislative Nazi enableism.

Counting the people who turn up in these "Nazi rally/terrorist attack" threads just to fight about Democrats

 

[kmax]

Nazism almost took over the world when it was the ideology of a dictatorship governing one of the world's most advanced militaries, not because a bunch of neckbeards threw a parade. This is not remotely close to being the case now. Trump is repugnant and his base is white-supremacists, but he is also wildly incompetent and presides over a party so deeply fractured it is incapable of governing. He is also historically unpopular.

You want to beat the Nazis? Beat. Them. At. The. Ballot. Box. Vigilante violence is not going to help you with that end.

Please, get out of here with that false equivalence. You have a president that is directly emboldening these fascists by hiring them and allowing them to commit terror attacks without calling them out by name. Do you think that the sort of normalization of racism that we're seeing grow in this very day is totally fine? It's alarming that people think that the shit that's transpiring is fine.

 

[Jams775]

As far as non-violent approaches go I think this one is actually pretty good. Not going to work for all people (e.g. Unemployed, people with shitty employers) but it is something.

I feel like there's a high chance of turning someone violent when you get them fired from their jobs. Now not only are they angry, but they're poor and unable to get a job because of ANTIFA (or whomever). That gives them a clear target to attack and nothing else to do but stir in their angry and hate.

Not saying this is the case, but I'm not convinced this is a good thing to do.

 

[Not]

If you get fear out of this GIF instead of unbridled glee, maybe take a loooooong, deep look inside.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Of fucking course there are gaffers who are against people fighting back against fucking nazis.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

I see few lies in that timeline. I see plenty in your post.

New Democrats political strategy was basically that. Try to appeal to white racists with welfare reform, "tough on crime" bills and all that other whistles. That's actual, legislative Nazi enableism.

Voting 3rd party enables people like Trump. That's not a lie. He isn't going to ever get a unicorn candidate. He was also nonstop shitting on Democrats. Which hey is fine, many Democrats do need to have more sense slapped into them.

New Democrats, if he's crapping on them specifically, is fine by me. I agree with your assessment of them. But I just didn't see a lot of GOP shaming there. Maybe there is other stuff in other timelines of his.

 

[theCalamity]

Or compromise it away. I swear people like that would be willing to bring segregation back if it'd keep the peace with bigoted terrorists.

They're the enablers. They're the banality of evil.