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Vehicle plows into counter protesters in Charlottesville

G

Garlador

Member
Psychoward said:
Gandhi wasn't the only reason India changed and MLK wasn't the only reason the civil rights bill was passed and I really wish people would stop saying shit like this.
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Of course not, and nobody is saying that. But they were instruments OF change and it's foolish to downplay the influence they had in enacting the change they were looking for and fighting tooth and nail for decades to bring it to the masses.

Someone asked if non-violence ever achieved anything, and I mentioned Gandhi. I then quoted MLK who had a particularly interesting viewpoint on Gandhi's beliefs which I felt relevant to the discussion.

I then also quoted a German pastor. Odd that part wasn't mentioned.

One person never achieves change on their own. It's why Trump's "only I can fix it!" statement is such ludicrous garbage. But one person can instigate change that legions of followers and supporters can enact, influenced by and inspired by their words and deeds and the contemporaries among them. MLK certainly didn't act alone and no one is claiming that. To do so is a discredit to Ralph Abernathy, Rosa Parks, Thurgood Marshall, Bob Moses, Malcolm X, and every man, woman, and child that formed a small ARMY to drive the Civil Rights Movement forward.

It's inversely the same for Trump. The threat is less from Trump himself, but more how he became a rallying point for legions of anonymous white nationalists in hiding who could rally behind his doctrine as he made public intolerance normalized and acceptable. They always existed before he came along, but he gave them something and someone to unify behind.

Hitler was voted into power by the masses. War was waged over the right to enslave human beings as personal property by half our nation. Public figures rise and fall on the whims of the public discourse to champion their values.

So we can't afford to sit on the sidelines.
 
O

opoth

Banned
isamu said:
Confederate%20Monument%20Protest


The face of hate. Right here folks. Thankfully he's been charged with 1st degree murder.
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Looks like he skinsuited Richard Spencer and then ate his corpse.
 
N

Not

Banned
Sony said:
This proves again that my posts aren't being read. There is no point in discussing.
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You didn't qualify "Violence isn't the answer" with specific parameters. You could be saying "in all situations" or "in one very specific situation." That's on you to define. People jumped on you for what appeared to be a generality.

On the contrary, I'm reading them very carefully.
 
B

Bad_Boy

time to take my meds
that video interview of his mom being told for the first time what her scumbag of a child did at the rally is eye opening.

i don't think i feel comfortable posting a link though, its kinda sad her shock is being put on front street like that. though its probably not hard to find (or already posted) at this point.
 
F

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
theCalamity said:
So when is violence the answer?
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"Dr. King’s policy was that nonviolence would achieve the gains for black people in the United States. His major assumption was that if you are nonviolent, if you suffer, your opponent will see your suffering and will be moved to change his heart. That’s very good. He only made one fallacious assumption: In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none."

— Kwame Ture
 
N

Not

Banned
aeolist said:
does he do the nazi salute???
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Probably not. Read the last few pages. He was just shook by what I assume were physical similarities between him and the man and created a narrative about how white guys shouldn't ever be punched ever or "gee whiz if we're just up and punching white guys now someone might break into MY house and confuse ME for a Nazi sympathizer whuh-oh"
 
A

aeolist

Banned
Not said:
Probably not. Read the last few pages. He was just shook by what I assume were physical similarities between him and the man and created a narrative about how white guys shouldn't ever be punched ever or "gee whiz if we're just up and punching white guys now someone might break into MY house and confuse ME for a Nazi sympathizer whuh-oh"
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hmm i feel like the only resemblance that matters would be the salute

funny thing, that
 
B

bplewis24

Neo Member
Brazil said:
I'd love for someone to point me in the direction of one instance in history in which a hate group was defeated by anything other than pure violence.
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Well, "defeat" is subjective, but ...our American history is a prime example of that. Not to mention India.

Gordon Shumway said:
aUGpzmX.gif
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Funny, for sure, but also seems conveniently revisionist:

Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. I am not unmindful of the fact that violence often brings about momentary results. Nations have frequently won their independence in battle. But in spite of temporary victories, violence never brings permanent peace. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/martinluth717840.html
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sphagnum said:
Ah, now that the Nazis can't claim that the killer was a leftist Bernie supporter I see they're trying to spread the idea that he is Jewish based on his mother's last name, Bloom.

Even though if you look up the etymology of Bloom as a surname, it could equally be Anglo-Saxon in origin.
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All that nuance isn't necessary. He was a registered republican, obviously voted for Trump, neo nazi sympathizer and was at the friggin rally in lock-step with all of those other white supremacists.

Garlador said:
So I'll leave it to MLK and Dietrich Bonhoeffer to summarize non-violent protests vs violent retaliation:
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That Bonhoeffer quote wasn't about violent retaliation. Again, let's not conflate self-defense with preemptive violence. The Bonhoeffer quote is a reference to the belief that Bonhoeffer was involved in a conspiracy to assassinate Hitler. There is nothing to support the belief that Bonhoeffer would be an advocate of taking to the streets in 2017 to attack Neo Nazis.

MoonsaultSlayer said:
How do you change the rules/laws, if the people who make them have a safe zone where they're allowed to speak like this? What's going to change with just talking if it hasn't already?
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We continue the political fighting, and fucking vote. Now is not the time to give up.

Slayven said:
First there is no such thing as a nonviolent Nazi. Their ideology is genocide

Second stop slandering MLK
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Stop using strawman arguments. The law distinguishes between actions and beliefs. Your logic suggests that if a Nazi is eating lunch in the park, it's okay to attack him/her because they are a Nazi, even if they are not being violent at that moment. If that's the road you want to go down, I will be in full-throated opposition to it. That is ridiculous.

Second, I never once slandered MLK. If all you have is strawman arguments, then you really have nothing to argue.
 
P

plagiarize

Banned
I don't think violence is the answer.

But I will never have an issue with Nazis getting punched in the face. Nope. What they do is far worse than a punch in he face every now and then.
 
J

jetjevons

Bish loves my games!
The reality is there's probably no way he was sober when he comitted this deplorable crime. Which is another problem America has to deal with. Unless he was. In which case You die. You die and go hell.
 
A

aeolist

Banned
http://www.dsausa.org/charlottesville

We call on the left to build a strong united front against this emboldened right wing. We need to be clear and recognize that white supremacist terrorism will not simply go away if it's ignored. This violent and dangerous movement should never be allowed to have a platform. It should always be fought against by the strength of our united front.

It is important to acknowledge the differing responses of the police to white supremacist marches and terrorism and their reactions to Black Lives Matter protests and marches. Black Lives Matter protests are always met with the worst police brutality and suppression while white supremacist marches are allowed to freely attack counter-protesters on many occasions.

In this way, we plainly see whose side the police are on. From the days of the creation of the modern day police in the 1800s, they were used as a violent force for the physical suppression of a resistant working class, of Black slaves, and indigenous people. Today, their role of social control and oppression remains largely the same.
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I

Impeccable

Member
jetjevons said:
The reality is there's probably no way he was sober when he comitted this deplorable crime. Which is another problem America has to deal with. Unless he was. In which case You die. You die and go hell.
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Like why does it matter if he was high or drunk, he committed a literal terrorist attack. Why does this need a *?
 
B

bplewis24

Neo Member
Fuu said:
"Dr. King's policy was that nonviolence would achieve the gains for black people in the United States. His major assumption was that if you are nonviolent, if you suffer, your opponent will see your suffering and will be moved to change his heart. That's very good. He only made one fallacious assumption: In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none."

— Kwame Ture
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So, it sounds like you are arguing that MLK was wrong then? And FYI, Mr Ture was arguably wrong in the second premise of his logical statement. There is plenty of work out there about how/why MLK believed in non-violence, it wasn't just based on one assumption. Some people are acting as if it was a hasty decision he made, and not a worldview he crafted based on years (decades?) of thought, study and introspection.

But, by all means, please elaborate on how/why he was wrong. And also, feel free to answer the other question I posed. I'm curious to know how people feel about this as a free speech issue. Should we take Germany's approach on things like this, or keep it legal and just attack people in public and end up going to jail over it as a sustainable means of fighting back?
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
As for calls for uniting the Left.

Don't forget that it was Hillary who called them racists as deplorables.

Don't forget that it was Berniebros who dismissed it and said "economic anxiety"

Hillary was right
 
P

Psychoward

Banned
jetjevons said:
The reality is there's probably no way he was sober when he comitted this deplorable crime. Which is another problem America has to deal with. Unless he was. In which case You die. You die and go hell.
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What? Why would you assume he wasn't sober? Why do white terrorists always get the benefit of the doubt?
 
T

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Oh, the driver has mental problems huh. How is that different than any other Nazi?
 
S

Skyball Paint

Member
I wonder what would happen if those so eager to spill Nazi blood, did so. Have they any idea what they're in for? When they're covered in another human's blood, the smell of it filling their nostrils? What will they do if someone they view as sub-human starts begging for their life? Will they have nightmares of their experiences? Have they any clue what they ask when they demand others join them in their violence?
 
T

The Kree

Banned
bplewis24 said:
So, it sounds like you are arguing that MLK was wrong then? And FYI, Mr Ture was arguably wrong in the second premise of his logical statement. There is plenty of work out there about how/why MLK believed in non-violence, it wasn't just based on one assumption. Some people are acting as if it was a hasty decision he made, and not based on years (decades?) of thought and introspection.

But, by all means, please elaborate on how/why he was wrong. And also, feel free to answer the other question I posed. I'm curious to know how people feel about this as a free speech issue.
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So you want us all to preach non violence and still get shot in the face like he did? Is that what you call a winning strategy?
 
R

royalan

Member
bplewis24 said:
Stop using strawman arguments. The law distinguishes between actions and beliefs. Your logic suggests that if a Nazi is eating lunch in the park, it's okay to attack him/her because they are a Nazi, even if they are not being violent at that moment. If that's the road you want to go down, I will be in full-throated opposition to it. That is ridiculous.
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I'm sorry, but if our society has devolved to the point that actual Nazis (whose ideological goals always arrive at "genocide" and "mass murder" eventually) have reached the point that they're openly eating lunch in the park, then we have much bigger problems than the punch in the face that person is asking for.

That you don't seem to understand how nonsensical your defense is concerns me.
 
W

Wrestlemania

Banned
Skyball Paint said:
I wonder what would happen if those so eager to spill Nazi blood, did so. Have they any idea what they're in for? When they're covered in another human's blood, the smell of it filling their nostrils? What will they do if someone they view as sub-human starts begging for their life? Will they have nightmares of their experiences? Have they any clue what they ask when they demand others join them in their violence?
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Only one way to find out!
 
T

Two Words

Member
jetjevons said:
The reality is there's probably no way he was sober when he comitted this deplorable crime. Which is another problem America has to deal with. Unless he was. In which case You die. You die and go hell.
Click to expand...

What makes you think there is probably no way he was sober? Do you think people never kill in cold sober blood?
 
A

Alavard

Member
Skyball Paint said:
I wonder what would happen if those so eager to spill Nazi blood, did so. Have they any idea what they're in for? When they're covered in another human's blood, the smell of it filling their nostrils? What will they do if someone they view as sub-human starts begging for their life? Will they have nightmares of their experiences? Have they any clue what they ask when they demand others join them in their violence?
Click to expand...

Maybe go lecture the actual murderers.
 
1

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
I hate how many public figures are equating white supremacists to groups like the Antifa.

I don't know much about what the Antifa is doing in the US, but I know what they are doing in Germany and I know that, while their methods aren't always politically correct, they make an important contribution to our political discourse.

Some time ago a major news outlet had a "Thank You, Antifa" article, and I think it was very good.

This is just a google translate translation, I went through it fix some things but its still not great. I hope people understand.
Thanks, dear Antifa!

They are regarded as rioters, troublemakers, chaos. But in doing so, they enable us to live a life in which right-wing extremes play the part they are entitled to: namely, none.
In defense of a much shamed subculture.

If you see these guys on TV or read about them in the newspaper and are half-right in your head, you must have a terrible picture of them. In Berlin they are constantly stressful, annoying every year on 1 May, but basically the four months before and the eight months after, too. It is easy to stamp these people as brainless rioters. But you can see that there is also a completely different side. If we are honest, we owe them a lot.

The poor image of the "Antifas" is not only the fault of the media, but above all their own: traditionally, they hardly waste a thought to explain their actions. If they do, they use incomprehensible phrases and an arrogant tone, which makes them even a corner more unsympathetic. The Antifa is probably the worst public work on this planet.

I am still very glad that they exist. If the Antifa were not there, there would be much more Nazis in my life. The fact that they are not constantly present in the center of Berlin with info-stands, torch relays and marches is essentially the merit of Antifa and its supporters.

If Nazis want to go through streets today, they are screened by a huge police force. The entire route is blocked off by hundreds of cops, there are baricades and police stations - passer-bys are far away, hate slogans are not heard. All this happens only because the state knows that militant left-wingers will cause trouble otherwise.

To organize a Nazi march under these conditions does not only mean a huge logistical act for the policemen but also for the right-wing extremists themselves. They can do so only a few times a year and then they have to run through a ghost town. How frustrating.

If the resistance were not there, right-wing extremists would soon have no inhibition threshold to act out publicly. They could distribute flyers undisturbed: in supermarkets, in front of schools, in pedestrian zones. They could exert pressure and force their values onto others. I am already bothered by the fact that at home in Bergmannstraße I am constantly being approached by environmentalists who want to persuade me to become a member. I am grateful that there are no right-wing extremists who would like to discuss the Holocaust. Whoever says that one must argue with Nazis argumentatively, has no idea of ​​the reality in East German provinces.

"Protests against Nazis are good, but that can also be done differently." This sentence comes mostly from the mouths of people who do nothing at all against Nazis. Or make symbolic politics without reaching anything except your own good feeling. One example of this is the annual Nazi parade in Dresden, which was stopped several times because Antifa groups had called for blockades. Afterwards, however, the ones who are praised are the citizens, who clung to each other on the other side of the river. In the news every year the wrong ones are celebrated.

Not all the left are good people. There are very foolish heads among them, and if they do trash garbage bins or demolish bus stops, this is annoying and wrong. But also not that big of a deal.

One can probably find this cynical, but it is true: the task of the police is to capture the violent left. And the task of the Antifa is to threaten relentlessly with resistance.

It soothes me to live in a city that has a strong, active Antifa. Because then I am sure that in my neighborhood no Nazis take over opinion leadership.

Oh, by the way, these people do it voluntarily.
Click to expand...

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/chaoten-oder-heilsbringer-danke-liebe-antifa/9382378.html
 
B

BriGuy

Member
Violence isn't the answer in 99.9% of these situations. But when you're dealing with literal goddamn Nazis, I think you can justify it on some level. I mean, this isn't a case of Godwin's law "oh look at these 'Nazis' pushing a conservative agenda" labeling, these are heil-Hitlering motherfucking Nazis. They're the de facto enemy of the civilized world and should be dealt with harshly.
 
B

bplewis24

Neo Member
gutter_trash said:
As for calls for uniting the Left.

Don't forget that it was Hillary who called them racists as deplorables.

Don't forget that it was Berniebros who dismissed it and said "economic anxiety"

Hillary was right
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There are/were plenty of Bernie and Hillary supporters who both called them racists and also plenty supporters who attributed it to economic anxiety. Stop using this as revisionist history to re-litigate the 2016 primary. The campaigns were in no way that binary.

Not said:
Just don't craft your entire argument around a yes or no answer to this one question, please. Leave room for nuance.
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It's a simple question. There is plenty of room for nuance, but I've seen several posts here abandoning nuance in favor of suggesting that violence is the only option left to deal with Nazis in public. And now a couple posts implying that MLK would have agreed with that.
 
N

Not

Banned
Skyball Paint said:
I wonder what would happen if those so eager to spill Nazi blood, did so. Have they any idea what they're in for? When they're covered in another human's blood, the smell of it filling their nostrils? What will they do if someone they view as sub-human starts begging for their life? Will they have nightmares of their experiences? Have they any clue what they ask when they demand others join them in their violence?
Click to expand...

No. This stops now. This is fucking disingenuous and maddening. Ask the people fighting for a cause that systematically killed millions of people these questions first, you knob.

Nazis aren't subhuman. They're humanity at its most primal.
 
T

theignoramus

Member
Bad_Boy said:
that video interview of his mom being told for the first time what her scumbag of a child did at the rally is eye opening.

i don't think i feel comfortable posting a link though, its kinda sad her shock is being put on front street like that. though its probably not hard to find (or already posted) at this point.
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His high school history teacher said he was obsessed with Nazism. No way in hell does that mother not know about her son's affinity for that kind of thing.
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
Skyball Paint said:
I wonder what would happen if those so eager to spill Nazi blood, did so. Have they any idea what they're in for? When they're covered in another human's blood, the smell of it filling their nostrils? What will they do if someone they view as sub-human starts begging for their life? Will they have nightmares of their experiences? Have they any clue what they ask when they demand others join them in their violence?
Click to expand...
Nazism is literally an ideology that preaches violence towards people they deem subhuman.
 
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