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[Psychoward]

One big logistical reason why people calling for extrajudicial violence are not thinking clearly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/us/charlottesville-doxxing.html

Individuals are being misidentified as being at the rally.

The inevitable, unacceptable risk for which the bloodthirsty armchair berserkers in this thread and others cannot spare a passing thought. Over the past few days I've watched people who cannot abide the death penalty for fear of executing an innocent person positively salivating at the notion of going vigilante and cracking some Nazi skulls open. The fuck happened to us?

Punching someone who's wearing a swastika ranting about blood and soil in front of your face is different than Internet detective manhunting which I don't think anyone here advocated for and even I know I explicitly said it was a bad idea.

 

[Nekofrog]

The inevitable, unacceptable risk for which the bloodthirsty armchair berserkers in this thread and others cannot spare a passing thought. Over the past few days I've watched people who cannot abide the death penalty for fear of executing an innocent person positively salivating at the notion of going vigilante and cracking some Nazi skulls open. The fuck happened to us?

Putting aside the fact that I'm pretty sure nobody here is calling for outright killing of anybody in specific around here, personally for me the death penalty as a punishment for a crime makes no sense when when that person is no longer a danger to anyone.

Nazis proved that they are all a danger this weekend. Everything about their ideology is dangerous and hatful, and a violent response to stop an ongoing violent action upon innocent people is valid.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Also lmao at calling people "armchair" anything in s internet post

 

[Gordon Shumway]

(((ECHO)))

Damn, that word really is being used a lot lately..

 

[Temeculan3000]

Putting aside the fact that I'm pretty sure nobody here is calling for outright killing of anybody in specific around here, personally for me the death penalty as a punishment for a crime makes no sense when when that person is no longer a danger to anyone.

Nazis proved that they are all a danger this weekend. Everything about their ideology is dangerous and hatful, and a violent response to stop an ongoing violent action upon innocent people is valid.

There was at least one person in this thread who said they were willing to buy a gun and start shooting them down at the next rally. And doubled down when asked if they really meant it. But they were banned.

 

[D i Z]

Speaking of people wondering what antifa is in that Moriarty topic that got locked, who are the Redneck Revolt? A couple days ago is the first time I've ever heard of them. From what I can tell, they're heavily pro-gun, poor white people that're anti-racism? Is that basically right?

Probably answered already, but basically yeah.

 

[shawnbuddy]

I think what we've learned from the Boston bombing and other false positives is that the Internet detectives are pretty bad at their job, so yeah, definitely think twice.

 

[The Kree]

The inevitable, unacceptable risk for which the bloodthirsty armchair berserkers in this thread and others cannot spare a passing thought. Over the past few days I've watched people who cannot abide the death penalty for fear of executing an innocent person positively salivating at the notion of going vigilante and cracking some Nazi skulls open. The fuck happened to us?

It's not vigilantism, it's self-defense.

What happened to us is we read some history and got suited up.

 

[SyenceLabb]

It's not vigilantism, it's self-defense.

What happened to us is we read some history and got suited up.

Can you explain the self defense angle?

 

[The Kree]

Can you explain the self defense angle?

Yes.

Mobs of white guys stormed a city center this weekend talking about genocide while wearing white supremacist symbols. They killed a woman and injured many others.

 

[Ponn]

Can you explain the self defense angle?

*asked in a thread about a nazi driving a car through protesters injuring many and killing one*

 

[Davide]

Facebook posts on my feed saying Black Lives matter are as bad as Nazis are infuriating.

 

[Jakten]

Can you explain the self defense angle?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Racially_motivated_violence_against_African_Americans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Racially_motivated_violence_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:White_supremacy_in_the_United_States

Etc. This will hardly list everything but its a start if you are unaware of the history of racism in america

 

[stryker1138]

Putting aside the fact that I'm pretty sure nobody here is calling for outright killing of anybody in specific around here...

Nah, plenty of folks talking like that.

Nazis proved that they are all a danger this weekend. Everything about their ideology is dangerous and hatful, and a violent response to stop an ongoing violent action upon innocent people is valid.

I wish people would be specific when they say stuff like this. What do you deem an "acceptable level of violence" in response to this threat? Bareknuckle brawling in the streets? Billy clubs and baseball bats? Should we roll up on the next rally with AR-15's of our own? Can we open fire in a public square? Do we wait to be fired upon, or is the ideology they espouse damning enough to engage on sight? Should we do people living downrange the courtesy of letting them know they should get their kids into the bathtub and stock up on spackle?

There are a million reasons why vigilante warfare is a bad fucking idea. Zero accountability is a recipe for disaster.

 

[The Kree]

Nah, plenty of folks talking like that.



I wish people would be specific when they say stuff like this. What do you deem an "acceptable level of violence" in response to this threat? Bareknuckle brawling in the streets? Billy clubs and baseball bats? Should we roll up on the next rally with AR-15's of our own? Can we open fire in a public square? Do we wait to be fired upon, or is the ideology they espouse damning enough to engage on sight? Should we do people living downrange the courtesy of letting them know they should get their kids into the bathtub and stock up on spackle?

There are a million reasons why vigilante warfare is a bad fucking idea. Zero accountability is a recipe for disaster.

It's not vigilantism, it's self-defense.

 

[Box of Kittens]

MLK whom you are using as a moral bludgeoning stick had identical poor approval ratings when he was alive.

Not only did it take being assassinated for him to become popular, it also took selective interpretation of his legacy so all the diet racists could pretend he endorsed their colorblind racism.

 

[SyenceLabb]

It's not vigilantism, it's self-defense.

Can I go to one of these protests and just start swinging bats and shit? Like lay the ground rules. How does this work?

 

[harriet the spy]

It's not vigilantism, it's self-defense.

Unless you are literally, physically being attacked at the moment you defend yourself, its not self defense though.

 

[norm9]

It's not vigilantism, it's self-defense.

More like self-preservation.

 

[theCalamity]

Can I go to one of these protests and just start swinging bats and shit? Like lay the ground rules. How does this work?

I wouldn't judge you if you did

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think the part where he says to kill all the liberals is uh overstated

Yeah.. I actually sonehow missed that part on my first read.

I also think calling moderates liberal isn't accurate.

 

[Phrynobatrachus]

Nah, plenty of folks talking like that.



I wish people would be specific when they say stuff like this. What do you deem an "acceptable level of violence" in response to this threat? Bareknuckle brawling in the streets? Billy clubs and baseball bats? Should we roll up on the next rally with AR-15's of our own? Can we open fire in a public square? Do we wait to be fired upon, or is the ideology they espouse damning enough to engage on sight? Should we do people living downrange the courtesy of letting them know they should get their kids into the bathtub and stock up on spackle?

There are a million reasons why vigilante warfare is a bad fucking idea. Zero accountability is a recipe for disaster.

An acceptable level is one that won't get you jailed if you try it at that moment. Leftist groups absolutely need to start forming their own responses to the fascist militia movement, and that includes getting armed.

 

[excelsiorlef]

He sounds like an angry edge lord wanker who wants to weaponise her death for his own agenda in much the same way as the people he's lambasting. Who is he to judge how others feel about it? I'm sure a lot of them marched that day with her. It could have been any of them. The spirit of his message is venomous nonsense.

Meh.

If the vigil was organized as he said he's well within the right frame of mind to lambaste it.

 

[The Kree]

Can I go to one of these protests and just start swinging bats and shit? Like lay the ground rules. How does this work?

I can't tell you how to live your life.

Unless you are literally, physically being attacked at the moment you defend yourself, its not self defense though.

I disagree. I consider the surge of white nationalism and the existence of Nazis in my country an act of violence.

 

[SyenceLabb]

I can't tell you how to live your life.

lmao. Well said.

 

[Psychoward]

On one hand I think that dude is a biiiit of a dick, particularly let's line up all liberals and shoot them. But if he was right about his objective observations like someone showing up to a person killed by neo-nazis with an All Lives Matter shirt is some seriously degrading shit and he's right about that at least, along with the speech having flaws and the disgusting "I can't wait for the next one". But again he's a loon so who knows.

 

[Temeculan3000]

I disagree. I consider the surge of white nationalism and the existence of Nazis in my country an act of violence.

While you are free to hold your own views, that won't hold up in court if you killed someone. If we are talking about the legal claim of self-defense that is.

 

[Psychoward]

While you are free to hold your own views, that won't hold up in court if you killed someone. If we are talking about the legal claim of self-defense that is.

And yet an even weaker, racist argument for self-defense held up for one of the most publicized trials of the century lol

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't understand why people are still harping on the ACLU. They are lawyers so they understand precedent is everything. If even one case against someone whose views they oppose tears down a principle they want to uphold, it hurts everything else they claim to defend.

Because it's the reality of the US... that the Constitution compells them to do it is fucked up.

I mean literally the ACLU would file a lawsuit to ensure that actual Nazis can protest at the funeral of one of their victims.

And folks valorize that.

It's not their fault but I think it's tome people realize exactly how fucked up it is.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

While you are free to hold your own views, that won't hold up in court if you killed someone. If we are talking about the legal claim of self-defense that is.

Is there a less shitty argument against fighting Nazis than "its against the law"?

 

[Nasbin]

Nazi ideology isn't resurgent because some dipshit klansmen held a few rallies without fear of physical reprisal. If you want to talk about suppressing hate speech, let's talk about seriously regulating the internet. These organizations are exploiting the power of social media to weaponize mass disinformation. Easier to romanticize punching Nazis than coming to grips with the necessary restrictions the unfettered Internet space is long overdo for.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Another young white guy was arrested because of a bomb plot on a government building.

How come there is no larger conversation about the obvious radicalization of young white men in this country? They are all targeting minorities,LGBT folks and the government.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Not only did it take being assassinated for him to become popular, it also took selective interpretation of his legacy so all the diet racists could pretend he endorsed their colorblind racism.

Yep.

Fuck they used him as a weapon against same-sex marriage

 

[Temeculan3000]

Is there a less shitty argument against fighting Nazis than "its against the law"?

My point wasn't to argue against fighting Nazi's but just general advice. You can't just make up the rules to claiming self defense.

If you follow the posts, someone talks about how we can't go around killing. And others responded that it is self defense. I'm just pointing out that while we can look at it that way, the court probably won't agree unless you were in immediate danger.

And yet an even weaker, racist argument for self-defense held up for one of the most publicized trials of the century lol

Trayvon? or something else?

 

[The Kree]

My point wasn't to argue against fighting Nazi's but just general advice. You can't just make up the rules to claiming self defense.

If you follow the posts, someone talks about how we can't go around killing. And others responded that it is self defense. I'm just pointing out that while we can look at it that way, the court probably won't agree unless you were in immediate danger.

Honestly, I'm just glad you're more concerned about our chances in court than the physical well being of Nazis.

#progress

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think some people need to accept that the vaunted philosophy of "Fighting hate speech with more speech" is a failing one.

 

[tearsintherain]

Nazi ideology isn't resurgent because some dipshit klansmen held a few rallies without fear of physical reprisal. If you want to talk about suppressing hate speech, let's talk about seriously regulating the internet. These organizations are exploiting the power of social media to weaponize mass disinformation. Easier to romanticize punching Nazis than coming to grips with the necessary restrictions the unfettered Internet space is long overdo for.

I find it pretty shocking that so many people today are willing to give up their rights and freedoms to combat a fairy limited threat. Reminds me a lot of the "yes the patriot act is a great idea" after 9/11. So many people on GAF have this weird notion that the government and corporations will only do "the right thing".

In reality Trump and the republicans would gleefully use any opportunities for censorship, hate speech laws, Internet regulation laws, etc to heavily curtail opposition to THEM.

 

[SyenceLabb]

I think some people need to accept that the vaunted philosophy of "Fighting hate speech with more speech" is a failing one.

physically fighting them doesn't work either. Giving a Nazi a bloody nose might make you feel good. but I don't think he's going to go home and have a change of heart. If anything, his hatred will be fueled by it.

 

[Phrynobatrachus]

physically fighting them doesn't work either. Giving a Nazi a bloody nose might make you feel good. but I don't think he's going to go home and have a change of heart. If anything, his hatred will be fueled by it.

again, richard spencer getting rocked proves this is wrong. it doesn't matter if it doesn't change their ideology, what matters is that they aren't ever given a platform and will be more reluctant in trying to make their own.

 

[Heroman]

I think some people need to accept that the vaunted philosophy of "Fighting hate speech with more speech" is a failing one.

It notna failing one, there will always be need for nonviolent however when push comes to shove it time to go ham.

 

[Crossing Eden]

physically fighting them doesn't work either. Giving a Nazi a bloody nose might make you feel good. but I don't think he's going to go home and have a change of heart. If anything, his hatred will be fueled by it.

If a person self identifies as a nazi they're too far gone in the first place. Jumping into a literal pile of shit makes more logical sense than being a nazi in this day and age.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Is this like an ironic avatar?

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

I find it pretty shocking that so many people today are willing to give up their rights and freedoms to combat a fairy limited threat. Reminds me a lot of the "yes the patriot act is a great idea" after 9/11. So many people on GAF have this weird notion that the government and corporations will only do "the right thing".

In reality Trump and the republicans would gleefully use any opportunities for censorship, hate speech laws, Internet regulation laws, etc to heavily curtail opposition to THEM.

Last time I checked Canada and Germany have had hate speech laws for decades and they haven't started rounding people up. Really recent events have outright proven that this slippery slope argument is weak as shit.

 

[Order]

Is this like an ironic avatar?

lmao

 

[Box of Kittens]

In general I find it gross when members of the far-left and center-left use Nazi violence as an excuse to air their grievances with each other. Not to mention that was tried in Germany. The result was both sides getting murdered and thrown in concentration camps.

Not saying people should just pretend their differences don't exist but when the issue involves Nazis your enemies should be the Nazis.

 

[SyenceLabb]

Civil disobedience is where I draw the line. Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat is one well known example. Taking a day off from work to go to a protest armed with twin sais and throwing stars for the sole purpose of drawing blood isn't what I would call civil disobedience. What Kree is talking about sounds to me like a right to revolution. And what is going on now doesn't fall into that category either.

 

[Frozenprince]

Maybe we need a revolution?

 

[SyenceLabb]

Is this like an ironic avatar?

I don't blindly follow an ideology. I pick my ideals a la carte.

 

[UberTag]

Last time I checked Canada and Germany have had hate speech laws for decades and they haven't started rounding people up. Really recent events have outright proven that this slippery slope argument is weak as shit.

Americans like to pretend their problems haven't been soundly addressed in a sensible fashion by other developed nations for decades... be it hate speech, gun control or socialized health care. They've been brainwashed by their media... and their government... to believe that any slight change on any of these fronts will result in the end of the bill of rights, the incarceration of innocents, the end of their religion of choice and that evil non-white immigrants will descend upon their newly unarmed selves and rape their families and steal their jobs.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

Americans like to pretend their problems haven't been soundly addressed in a sensible fashion by other developed nations for decades... be it hate speech, gun control or socialized health care. They've been brainwashed by their media... and their government... to believe that any slight change on any of these fronts will result in the end of the bill of rights, the incarceration of innocents, the end of their religion of choice and that evil non-white immigrants will descend upon their newly unarmed selves and rape their families and steal their jobs.

We're a developing nation in denial.