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[Psyrgery ES]

Holy crap.

As a spaniard it pains me to see the current status of Venezuela, and how a person that was not supposed to rule a country is running it to the ground.

Please stay safe Venezuela-gaf, best wishes to you all.

 

[Ostinatto]

Wait a minute, Chavez was fairly elected?

Stay safe Venezuela Gaf.

 

[Kerensky]

I'm not particularly familiar with Venezuelan politics or Maduro so I have to ask, is he really stupid/crazy enough to attack a NATO country?

if memory serves me right, they're self-governed bodies under crown protection.

NATO was absent during the falklands war aswell. The US didn't really feel like spilling their blood for an English overseas colony as you can imagine and wanted to hold a peace conference.

Nowadays Euro countries have a woefully bad projection power, so if Venezuela would be capable of defeating the garrison troops (Aruba for example only has a token force of royal marines, who usualy only shovel up the mess left by hurricanes) it would be a great morale boost for the more nationalist part of the population and there would be little the previous owner could do about it.

France has a larger force present on Guyana due to it's strategic value as a spaceport for ESA.

 

[lord]

if memory serves me right, they're self-governed bodies under crown protection.

NATO was absent during the falklands war aswell. The US didn't really feel like spilling their blood for an English overseas colony as you can imagine and wanted to hold a peace conference.

Nowadays Euro countries have a woefully bad projection power, so if Venezuela would be capable of defeating the garrison troops (Aruba for example only has a token force of royal marines, who usualy only shovel up the mess left by hurricanes) it would be a great morale boost for the more nationalist part of the population and there would be little the previous owner could do about it.

France has a larger force present on Guyana due to it's strategic value as a spaceport for ESA.

Guyana is a sovereign nation, which is the one bordered by Venezuela. Guyana and Trinidad and Tobago are the easier targets.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Wait a minute, Chavez was fairly elected?

Stay safe Venezuela Gaf.

Oh yeah at least in 1998 he was for sure constitutionally elected. Chavez did have the masses for at least his first two terms no matter how loud the opposition, media, and middle class were.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

This shocked me when I read it. I knew Maduro was using the judicial branch to undermine the Parliament, but not outright destroy the legislative branch in such an overt manner, and in fucking election year. And a year before the presidential elections.

It also is a warning for us Colombians. Not because of a far left candidate (there is none viable for elections next year), but because of the far right.

Alvaro Uribe (a former president and head of the far right party in Colombia) and his party throughout the past year have called for the destruction of political institutions that have taken decisions negative towards their agenda, on several ocassions already. Just because the Constitutional Court is stacked with liberals and because Congress is mostly voting for the President's peace plan (all while rejecting political reforms that could strengthen democracy, apparently).

Anyway, I hope for the best for Venezuela, but I don't think this will happen that fast.

Wait a minute, Chavez was fairly elected?

Stay safe Venezuela Gaf.

Yeah, he attempted a coup but it didn't work, went to jail, was then let out because popular opinion was with him, and then won elections on a populist campaign (I might be remembering my history wrong though and I probably minimized a shit ton of details).

Venezuela more than anything, is a warning against electing populist leaders. Specially in countries where their democracy was just maturing. It didn't have the chance to get strong and now it looks unachievable in current circumstances.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Nowadays Euro countries have a woefully bad projection power, so if Venezuela would be capable of defeating the garrison troops (Aruba for example only has a token force of royal marines, who usualy only shovel up the mess left by hurricanes) it would be a great morale boost for the more nationalist part of the population and there would be little the previous owner could do about it.

Both Aruba and Curacao have US military personel stationed at the Forward Operating Locations there which would make it far more likely to get US involvement then the Falklands. If you look at Google Maps an AWACS and military transport plane are clearly visible at Curacao airport.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

It would be interesting to see if they really would be prepared to pull an Argentina over it, if it's french guyana they they would automatically declare war no the EU considering it's status as a fully integrated province of france.

guyana, the ex UK colony

 

[Corronchilejano]

Colombia is being swarmed with refugees. I hope xenophobia is limited to witless politicians.

 

[FerDS]

Wait a minute, Chavez was fairly elected?

Stay safe Venezuela Gaf.

He was, many times actually. Although the later ones were very unfair elections.

Venezuela is not going to invade any other nation, not for a long time. I sincerely imagine this government will be out before then

 

[Ahasverus]

Colombia is being swarmed with refugees. I hope xenophobia is limited to witless politicians.

You bet Uribe is gonna start beating those drums soon. Let's hope we avoid the hard right wave.

 

[Linkark07]

Yep, our President Kuczynski released a statement regarding the current state of affairs in Venezuela and the removal of the ambassador. Needless to say, Maduro's staff didn't like it.

How I wish my country did the same. Despite my complaints about our last president, at least he had the balls to criticize Maduro (and a bit of hypocrisy too, since he wanted to stay in power just like Maduro).

Shame the Panama Canal treaty forces us to be neutral; it would put even more economic pressure to Maduro if Venezuela couldn't use the waterway.

 

[RionaaM]

It would be interesting to see if they really would be prepared to pull an Argentina over it, if it's french guyana they they would automatically declare war no the EU considering it's status as a fully integrated province of france.

I really hope they don't. It's sad to see dictators creating wars to give people a false sense of patriotism. Here in Argentina lots of innocent young men died in a conflict that wasn't theirs. I don't want this to happen in Venezuela too.

 

[Matt]

if memory serves me right, they're self-governed bodies under crown protection.

NATO was absent during the falklands war aswell. The US didn't really feel like spilling their blood for an English overseas colony as you can imagine and wanted to hold a peace conference.

Nowadays Euro countries have a woefully bad projection power, so if Venezuela would be capable of defeating the garrison troops (Aruba for example only has a token force of royal marines, who usualy only shovel up the mess left by hurricanes) it would be a great morale boost for the more nationalist part of the population and there would be little the previous owner could do about it.

France has a larger force present on Guyana due to it's strategic value as a spaceport for ESA.

The U.K never activated Article 5, so NATO never had a reason to be involved.

If the Netherlands did use their NATO rights (which, why wouldn't they), that would be a whole other question.

Of course, this is simply an academic question.

 

[Scotch]

if memory serves me right, they're self-governed bodies under crown protection.

Bonaire is a special municipality within the country of The Netherlands. So they'd be directly attacking a NATO member.

 

[Even]

Damn. I thought South America was done with dictatorships. They are not even pretending anymore.

South America never learns and it's always flirting with socialism. Right now in Brazil we have a lot of Maduro's friends anxious to bring back Lula or some other disaster and start their own dictatorship. It's extremely frustrating and scary to live here.

 

[Kareha]

if memory serves me right, they're self-governed bodies under crown protection.

NATO was absent during the falklands war aswell. The US didn't really feel like spilling their blood for an English overseas colony as you can imagine and wanted to hold a peace conference.

The US provided Sidewinder missiles for the UK's Harrier aircraft which helped us gain air superiority.

 

[Joezie]

The US provided Sidewinder missiles for the UK's Harrier aircraft which helped us gain air superiority.

Aye.

Sidewinders
Some Stingers for Anti Air
Sub detectors.
Fuel and logistics
About 12 F-4 Phantoms
and we even offered the UK the Iwo Jima just in case they needed it at the very least.

Most everything tbh except for Manpower.

 

[SSPssp]

NATO protection does not apply to attacks on European territories/colonies/whatever outside of Europe itself.

 

[Condom]

Oh yeah at least in 1998 he was for sure constitutionally elected. Chavez did have the masses for at least his first two terms no matter how loud the opposition, media, and middle class were.

*opposition, media and middle class that wanted the poor to keep living in misery im favor of themselves not actually improve the country

No matter how shit Maduro is right now, the bolevarian revolution was unavoidable because those before shat on the needy that much. They have the power to groom the US and western media and make themselves look like simple liberals though.

Being a politician in SA means having to juggle the corruption and policy issues, being a leftist politician in SA means having to juggle both those and the US empire/capitalism. Maduro would have to do that and fix the oil based economy, not something he is capable of as is obvious by now.

PSUV has to dump Maduro (lol) minimize the damage (lol) count their losses (lol) and try again in a couple of years without losing too much ground.

Then again I'm kinda interested in the politics there but no expert at all and it's a super toxic/divided political landscape, like many others in the world. Really hard to know what to believe when looking from the outside.

This is NOT according to the constitution: There always has to be a separation of powers (Legislature, Executive, and Judiciary) and you can't have one overriding any other.

The Supreme Court (TSJ) it's shielding itself (and Maduro) behind some twitsted "interpretation of the law" in wich grants itself the power to "take" the Legislature's atributions, while also giving free reign to Executive. This is not legal in any way.

Thanks for answering. Seemed like that, they are saying it's all because already taken decisions are not being followed by the new congress. The situation on the street has been taking far too long for Maduro to not count his losses. He has to be stopped by his own party for Venezuela to come out of this somewhat smoothly imo

 

[FerDS]

so, in a very, very, very, very, very, very surprising declaration* the head of the Public Ministry has said that the supreme court decision has broken constitutional order in the country.

Because of that, Maduro has called to the heads of all arms of government to "resolve the impasse"



*really, very extremely surprising.

 

[Kerensky]

The US provided Sidewinder missiles for the UK's Harrier aircraft which helped us gain air superiority.

France provided Argentina with Exocet missiles which helped them bust a frigate. Arms trade doesn't always have to count as help

 

[ty_hot]

There are many details missing. I read that there were 2 or 3 legislators from Amazonas state that got elected but were caught buying votes, so the supreme court ruled that they shouldn't be legislators. This was a year ago. Even though the SC ruled that, the legislative did give them the position and they are legislating as if nothing have happened. That is a big fucked up situation, but the wrong side is clearly the legislative one. If the Judiciary rules something and you dont agree, you complain at a higher court (in this case it would me an international court), you can't just ignore and do whatever. And as far as I know, as soon as they lose their position everything goes back to the how it was before and new elections are held in that said state. The problem (for the oposition) is: if they lose those 2 parliament members, they lose the 2/3 majority thay they have that allow them to make bigger changes to the Constitution.

Correct me if I said anything wrong.

 

[skynidas]

There are many details missing. I read that there were 2 or 3 legislators from Amazonas state that got elected but were caught buying votes, so the supreme court ruled that they shouldn't be legislators. This was a year ago. Even though the SC ruled that, the legislative did give them the position and they are legislating as if nothing have happened. That is a big fucked up situation, but the wrong side is clearly the legislative one. If the Judiciary rules something and you dont agree, you complain at a higher court (in this case it would me an international court), you can't just ignore and do whatever. And as far as I know, as soon as they lose their position everything goes back to the how it was before and new elections are held in that said state. The problem (for the oposition) is: if they lose those 2 parliament members, they lose the 2/3 majority thay they have that allow them to make bigger changes to the Constitution.

Correct me if I said anything wrong.

You are assuming that the goverment is telling the truth about their finding of the 2 Amazonas legislators buying votes is true. When you assume that just because you read it somewhere you are just showing that you don't know shit about how the Venezuelan goverment acts, how they do anything they want, how they refuse to put a date on Governors and local elections (which were supposed to take place last year).

The thing where you are wrong is that you are trying to talk about something that you don't fully understand, be ignorant but don't act like a know it all.

 

[Matt]

NATO protection does not apply to attacks on European territories/colonies/whatever outside of Europe itself.

That's not true, it applies to all member territory in Europe, the North Atlantic, and North America, which is where the Caribbean islands are located.

 

[Funky Papa]

Venezuela is not declaring war on anybody, let's get real here. The country would go down in flames right away.

 

[FerDS]

You are assuming that the goverment is telling the truth about their finding of the 2 Amazonas legislators buying votes is true. When you assume that just because you read it somewhere you are just showing that you don't know shit about how the Venezuelan goverment acts, how they do anything they want, how they refuse to put a date on Governors and local elections (which were supposed to take place last year).

The thing where you are wrong is that you are trying to talk about something that you don't fully understand, be ignorant but don't act like a know it all.

Plus, the 2 legislators have removed themselves voluntarily from the assembly.


In an update, last night the government has asked the Supreme Court o "review" the decisions made.

 

[Kerensky]

Venezuela is not declaring war on anybody, let's get real here. The country would go down in flames right away.

A war is something an unpopular government needs to distract the malcontent- and rally the nationalist parts of the underclasses.

The government's agitprop does their best to make it clear that foreign agencies are exclusively to blame for Venezuela's economic trouble and poor exports. This galvanizes the poor and combined with the ease of incentivizing enlistment with food and access to other basic services you can create a powerful grip on your nation, no matter the misery they're in.

 

[FerDS]

A war is something an unpopular government needs to distract the malcontent- and rally the nationalist parts of the underclasses.

The government's agitprop does their best to make it clear that foreign agencies are exclusively to blame for Venezuela's economic trouble and poor exports. This galvanizes the poor and combined with the ease of incentivizing enlistment with food and access to other basic services you can create a powerful grip on your nation, no matter the misery they're in.

An actual war is not needed, they have been blaming foreign agencies and "the fascist right" for many years now and using that to call the people to "defend the revolution".

If they declare war they will go down in an instant, and they are extremely aware of that

 

[sphagnum]

Title should be updated, looks like the court decided not to go through with this due to criticism:

Venezuela's Supreme Court said Saturday that it would abandon measures to strengthen President Nicolas Maduro's grip on power after it was widely and harshly criticized.

In a ruling posted on its website, the Supreme Court said it was overturning its decision to diminish the legislative powers of the General Assembly, which opponents called a "coup d'etat".

https://www.voanews.com/a/venezuela-court-congress/3792008.html

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Title should be updated, looks like the court decided not to go through with this due to criticism:



https://www.voanews.com/a/venezuela-court-congress/3792008.html

What kinda court just goes , our decision was fucked up? Not a very smart court grounded in he rule of law

 

[JS3DX]

Title should be updated, looks like the court decided not to go through with this due to criticism

It doesn't matter, he main problem remains: As you all probably know, the country is broke. To salvage what is left (and make more time for his goverment) Maduro needs some heavy international loans... but, sadly for him, any loans needed to be approved by the Parliament first. What would a dictator do if needed approval of the political opposition to get things done? Get rid of them, of course!

Now, let's assume the court backs off on disolving the parliament... nothing actually changes. THe country stays a mess.

 

[ty_hot]

You are assuming that the goverment is telling the truth about their finding of the 2 Amazonas legislators buying votes is true. When you assume that just because you read it somewhere you are just showing that you don't know shit about how the Venezuelan goverment acts, how they do anything they want, how they refuse to put a date on Governors and local elections (which were supposed to take place last year).

The thing where you are wrong is that you are trying to talk about something that you don't fully understand, be ignorant but don't act like a know it all.

I also have plenty of reasons not to believe the opposition and the media (arent those two the same?).

I just prefer having both sides of the story before jumping to conclusions.

I didnt even say thay what I said is the absolute truth, I even ended staying that people should correct me if I was mistaken. You, though, sound like the one that has your own truth, you disagree with what I said but you didnt bring any facts to corroborate your story. You just assume the government is lying about them.

Btw, it seems that Maduro backed a little but people are still complaining. I still dont get why he got more power out of the situation, that was in fact a wierd thing but that should (or not) have an explanation.

I just hope they can sort things out, but things are so polarized that I cant see it happening.

Edit.

Plus, the 2 legislators have removed themselves voluntarily from the assembly.


In an update, last night the government has asked the Supreme Court o "review" the decisions made.

Will there be new elections in their state?

 

[JS3DX]

There are many details missing. I read that there were 2 or 3 legislators from Amazonas state that got elected but were caught buying votes

Nobody was "caught" buying votes: The Supreme Court suspended the elected legislators a couple weeks after the election, stating there were "irregularities" in their state. That was in 2015. We are in 2017 and, as for the court, they remain suspended without any investigation looking to clarify the situation and correcting the aledged "irregularities".

Will there be new elections in their state?

As for now, these are the elections that are STILL to be made:
- Amazonas (if there were to be new elections there) - 2015
- Recall Referendum - 2016
- Regional Elections - 2016

So... no, there are no plans in the near future to do new elections in Amazonas (or any kind of elections on that matter) mainly because there hasn't been an investigation about it.

The wrong side is clearly the legislative one. If the Judiciary rules something and you dont agree, you complain at a higher court (in this case it would me an international court)

In 2008, Leopoldo Lopez (presidential candidate at that moment) was barred from running in the November 2008 elections for alleged corruption. He went to an international court (the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights), and in 2011 he got cleared of all of the charges of corruption by the court. The goverment never overturned their desition, and Leopoldo Lopez is in prison now.

...It's nice to think Venezuela is a democracy, you know?

 

[FerDS]

The Assembly will now open procedures to remove the judges from office, though since according to the judges their actions are invalid I'm not sure what will come of it

 

[Tallshortman]

Title should be updated, looks like the court decided not to go through with this due to criticism:



https://www.voanews.com/a/venezuela-court-congress/3792008.html

They only did so after Maduro told them to publicly, which is laughable given their charade of separation of powers. Also, they still gave him the power to legislate oil deals which was the main reason this happened in the first place. This is simply them trying to keep up the illusion of democracy.