Muppet of a Man
Member
In general, the pop stars win; every once in a while, that's not the case. Probably, the voters bucking the industry trend because they can. But 2 years does not a trend make.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Verge: Kendrick Lamar and the Grammys hip-hop problem
- Thread starter GK86
- Start date
- Status
In general, the pop stars win; every once in a while, that's not the case. Probably, the voters bucking the industry trend because they can. But 2 years does not a trend make.
Orthogonal
Member
Can someone explain what is so great about the Kendrick Lamar album? I am not a fan of Rap or Hip Hop and this type of music does nothing for me. I'm not trying to downplay it or say that Rap isn't music.
What is so different about this? I checked out several tracks from the album on youtube and it sounds about what I would expect from the genre and the lyrics didnt seem to be saying anything that hasnt already been said for years.
What is so different about this? I checked out several tracks from the album on youtube and it sounds about what I would expect from the genre and the lyrics didnt seem to be saying anything that hasnt already been said for years.
POWERSPHERE
Banned
'Who gives a fuck about a goddamn grammy'
theignoramus
Member
Mainstream America loves white rappers though. Weve all met that person who says "I dont like rap, but I love Eminem (or Aesop Rock)"
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
U would be like the 4th or 5th best track on GKMC.
I've have never met a single person who has said "I dont like rap, but I love Aesop Rock". I'd be surprised to hear that anyone has EVER said that.
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
Maybe I don't listen to enough metal but when was the last time you heard a metal song and said what a beautiful voice
Also hooks are minimal and usually sung by someone other than the rapper
kitchenmotors
Banned
This post... I can't.
NervousXtian
I'm an idiot
(Today, 09:58 PM)
1989 pales in comparison to Carly Rae's E•MO•TION. 1989 is a weak ass pop album. Valhelm posted a good a great list of albums, specifically Carrie and Lowell. If you wanna snub these albums because you think they might be a "Pitchforky" list or because you think they're pretentious, go ahead, but you're living up to your tag.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Real original post, don't want to discuss my post, so just tag quote.
Bring something better, or at least try to bring something to the discussion, you brought nothing.
Orthogonal
Member
Schattenjäger;195711746 said:
There are shitloads of Metal bands with excellent vocalists. Thrash and Death metal aren't known for their singers but plenty of Prog and Power Metal bands have some aces. They are just never, ever played on the radio.
Eh, not to me. I love both albums a ton, but Butterfly just edges out GKMC for me.
outunderthestars
Banned
This shit right here. What's next, are we going to get upset about the results of the Kids Choice Awards?
This conversation also has the shitty inherent understanding that apparently it doesn't take talent to do death metal vocals...
It does.
Personally my favorite vocalists can do a range of different styles and can belt out some amazing screams/growls but also sing amazingly well, too.
Jmanunknown
Member
your right 2010 song of the year single ladies.
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
I think that's another issue
Grammys are about popular music you hear of the radio
Which seriously shrinks the pool
So even though the Grammys do matter to many muscians people shouldn't be upset because...reasons? Sure they give out like 80 awards but it's still an important award. Unlike the KCAs or VMAs or any of that shit
Orthogonal
Member
My comment was made under the subjective quality of the voice being "beautiful". I have a hard time describing harsh vocals as beautiful, but I can certainly appreciate it.
Although, some fans have affectionally called it "brutiful". It does take a real talent to do both well. Mikael Akerfeldt probably being one of the best examples in his prime.
lol you got to be joking. He wont a song over a dead dude.
Eminem has never won a Grammy for Best Album or Best Record.
theignoramus
Member
We know what that was about though, everyone was up in their feelings about Kanye from the first Taylor Swift incident.
No, I understand what you were saying. I was just kind of going back to the original post/point. Why doesn't singing have to be "beautiful?" Are we awarding music only for most "beautiful" now? It's strange.
Orthogonal
Member
Schattenjäger;195712379 said:
I dont think anyone is under any illusion why Metal bands arent getting more Grammy love, the comment was simply a response to someone claiming Metal bands dont have "beautiful" sounding vocalists.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
A popularity contest that also loves giving old artists big wins, and also likes throwing a curve ball here or there with some "indie" artist.
2016: Taylor Swift. Pretty obvious
2015: Beck. "Indie" curve ball over a clear favorite (Beyonce).
2014: Daft Punk. One of the best selling albums of year, biggest hit of the year
2013: Mumford & Sons. The perfect album for Grammy voters, and it sold well.
2012: Adele. Nuff said
2011: Arcade Fire. Indie win over multiple better selling albums (including Eminem)
2010: Taylor Swift. Nuff said
2009: Robert Plant & Alison Krauss. Wins over Coldplay's super popular best selling album. Vet artists getting rewarded by old Grammy voters
2008: Herbie Hancock. Vet artist wins over Kanye, Amy Winehouse, and Foo Fighters
2007: Dixie Chicks. 2x platinum political album, wins over Timberlake and RHCP.
2006: U2. Big sales, vet artist
2005: Ray Charles. Vet artist wins over better selling Green Day, Kanye, and Alicia Keys
2004: Outkast. Best selling album of year
Sense some patterns there? Best sellers, veteran artists, couple indie curve balls. That has been the blueprint for quite some time. And to take it a step further: how many of those albums were the best album of the year? How many of them were even in contention, whether you base it on Metacritic or something else? Not many. The veteran artist wins especially are rather weak outside of Herbie Hancock's album, which is a good cover album but nothing special.
Daft Punk's album wasn't particularly good and disappointed many of their fans. U2's 2006 album was weak. Outkast's album is basically half a good album. So why the outcry over "the best album" not winning this year when the best album almost never wins.
bort
Member
have you actually looked at album of the year wins?
good post above mine showing you some past winners but SHOULD have pointed out that Daft Punk beat Taylor Swift
The problem is obvious that theres tons of voters and many don't listen to every single album possible. There would never be enough time for them to hear every single album available. So of course they go for more mainstream stuff a lot of the times.
I mean the awards that music gets is slightly more credible than any that video games get.
theignoramus
Member
.
Jmanunknown
Member
I have nothing against heavy metal I believe its just ridiculous to bring it up in a conversation about the most influential and popular genre of music of the last 30 years. If heavy metal were as popular or influential their would be an argument to be made but, its not.
Psychoward
Banned
not really
they're both shams
in fact I'd argue mainstream GOTY awards for video games are better at detecting overall quality especially in niche genres than the Grammy's are
GKMC didn't even win Rap Album of the Year. The Heist by Macklemore won it over GKMC, Nothing Was the Same, Magna Carta... and Yeezus. Please tell me you'd rather listen to The Heist over any of the albums nominated in that category, and this isn't hating on Macklemore, he just doesn't represent what rap is, (I believe he even said himself that he didn't deserve that award). The Grammy's are fucked and the majority of the time if a black artist is in a category, no matter what it is, the white artist, or at least the more mainstream/Pop artist, will be favoured.
Going into this year's Grammy's I was bitching to friends about Kendrick's lack of recognition with this award show, 2014 was kind of a tough pill to swallow, but Kendrick got 11 nominations and 5 awards this year. So, I can't really complain about that so much any more and I feel like that is exactly the reason why KL received so many nominations/awards; so people would shut up about it. So kudos to the writer of this article.
Obviously, the argument here is that Hip-Hop, and not KL, is under-represented at the Grammy's. We all know that this is a similar situation to the Oscars. People wondered why Macklemore won Best Rap Song, Best Rap Album, Best Rap Performance and Best New Artist but it's because the people voting on this stuff aren't educated on this genre and just go for the popular, white guy with the most Pop-sounding record. The people who vote on this are the sort of people that are okay with their kids listening to rap but only if it's Eminem and Macklemore. Like the article mentioned, black music evolves to represent the oppression black people/people of colour receive and since the 90's it's grown into Rap and Hip-Hop (R'n'B has also blurred into a representation of the aforementioned genres with many R'n'B records involving a rap verse). Rap and Hip-Hop represent cultures that organisations like the Grammy's don't want represented on a global stage.
However, I take umbridge with the above complaint. Those 4 wins by black artists were Stevie Wonder (Innervisions & Fulfillingness' First Finale), Michael Jackson (Thriller) and Lionel Richie (Can't Slow Down). Now, we can debate whether or not those albums deserved to win in their individual years but what we can't debate is if they're some of the greatest records ever put out. Personally, as a fan of Kendrick Lamar's work I can confidently say that GKMC and TPaB are fantastic records but I've never listened to 1989 or much of Taylor Swift's work (or any of the other albums nominated in that category) so what I believe can be debated is whether or not TPaB should without a doubt be winning over the rival nominees.
I mean, when has the Grammy's ever surprised us? Like the Oscars and almost every other awards show it's a popularity contest. Popular shit wins 99/100. Taylor Swift is one of the most popular artists out there at the moment. Like the article says 'To Pimp A Butterfly has sold 788,000 copies in the US. 1989 has sold 5,750,000 copies.' Her winning this award is not some major controversial topic and the idea that Hip-Hop is under-served by the Grammy's is not one anyone wants to talk about.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
Actually it makes perfect since to bring it up. Heavy metal is a genre that doesn't appeal to a lot of older people, specifically those who vote for the Grammys. Song writers, piano teachers, and vocalists probably aren't going to be interested in it as a genre for many reasons. And the same applies to hip hop. The influence of the genre isn't the main factor.
The only rapper with a shot at AOTY is Drake. He has the sales, radio hits, and melody to appeal to voters. Kendrick Lamar didn't have any of that. For all the alleged influence of the album it had almost no presence on urban radio. Hip hop DJs weren't really messing with Kendrick all year, despite him being on Interscope mind you. The album is a critical darling that frankly a lot of rap fans don't even like. For all the talk about influence, Future had a far bigger influence and his "protest" song (March Madness) was bigger than Alright.
Muppet of a Man
Member
The problem with genre classification is that, at certain points, certain genres cross over into the realm of pop (rock, r&b, hip-hop included). I think popularity and name recognition have a good part of what wins and what doesn't. That doesn't necessarily mean the most popular album or artist deserves to win. I was just pointing out that pop music will win most of the time (even if that pop music is technically another genre because that genre was pop music at the time).
Edit: and now that I actually read the post you were referencing, he says right there that he is demonstrating that it is a POPularity contest with some curve balls thrown in.
theignoramus
Member
Em was like the top 1 or 2 rapper in his prime, so no disrespect meant, but it fucking blows me away whenever I hear people say theyre more comfortable listening to Em versus other rappers. The dude made a career out of presenting this alter ego of himself that was probably the most vulgar and disrespectful the rap world had ever seen.
I know I might not be the post you're talking about, but when I brought up metal it wasn't me searching for a metal album win or something, but the genre literally had one category (Best metal performance). That's it. I mean I realize metal isn't as popular as rap (This survey puts it lowest on the list of genres, but it's still 10% compared to 14% for hip hop).
You know why they were/are comfortable with Em versus Kanye, Jay, Kendrick, Cole, any of the 20 members of Wu Tang and so on and so forth
Talking about how you're going to murder your wife and mother are like the words of an angel if spoken by a white man.
fredrancour
Member
It's weird to me seeing people who are apparently diehard music fans value the grammys as something that had any artistic or cultural significance. i've always just seen it as one cog in the wheel of the pop music marketing engine. i know that media shapes and is shaped by peoples' values and the ways race shows up in business and culture are worth thinking about. i just never felt any hope for the award show in terms of being something meaningful i guess.
the bit on contrasting the one black AotY winner from the recent decade with the 4 in a past decade was a pretty striking bit of information.
regularly. the fans who listen to the subgenres dominated by rougher vocals would stereotypically view melodic singing as cheesy (and i think we've reached the point where contemporary stereotypical metal is all harsh vocals to non-listeners?) but there are entire subgenres where clean singing with a large vocal range is the norm.
Then again ronnie james dio and bruce dickinson are probably still my favorite singers full stop so i'm biased as hell.
being a metal fan makes the show seem like even more of a joke, of course. most years the metal quarantine zone is just a list of famous old bands that happened to put something out this year. i am a psychotic iron maiden fanboy and I still know that nominating el dorado for that award was dumb, let alone letting it win. (This year was an exception, I kind of dig ghost, though meliora was no autumn eternal)
the bit on contrasting the one black AotY winner from the recent decade with the 4 in a past decade was a pretty striking bit of information.
Schattenjäger;195711746 said:
regularly. the fans who listen to the subgenres dominated by rougher vocals would stereotypically view melodic singing as cheesy (and i think we've reached the point where contemporary stereotypical metal is all harsh vocals to non-listeners?) but there are entire subgenres where clean singing with a large vocal range is the norm.
Then again ronnie james dio and bruce dickinson are probably still my favorite singers full stop so i'm biased as hell.
being a metal fan makes the show seem like even more of a joke, of course. most years the metal quarantine zone is just a list of famous old bands that happened to put something out this year. i am a psychotic iron maiden fanboy and I still know that nominating el dorado for that award was dumb, let alone letting it win. (This year was an exception, I kind of dig ghost, though meliora was no autumn eternal)
BudokaiMR2
Member
Yes, but the crux of this argument is that the 'Best' album should win, not the the most 'popular'.
This is of course what the award is supposed to be about.
Quoted from Wikipedia:
You aren't going to get an argument out of me about Hip Hop's influence. It is actually my favorite genre by a long shot.
However, if you are seriously arguing that Heavy Metal doesn't qualify because its not as popular....I just dunno what to say. Do you even understand your own stance?
Do you really think that Kendrick Lamar was more popular than Taylor Swift last year? Does popularity only matter when it works in your favor but goes out the window when it doesn't?
Jmanunknown
Member
The only rapper with a shot at AOTY is Drake. He has the sales, radio hits, and melody to appeal to voters. Kendrick Lamar didn't have any of that. For all the alleged influence of the album it had almost no presence on urban radio. Hip hop DJs weren't really messing with Kendrick all year, despite him being on Interscope mind you. The album is a critical darling that frankly a lot of rap fans don't even like. For all the talk about influence, Future had a far bigger influence and his "protest" song (March Madness) was bigger than Alright.[/QUOTE]
Drake's not winning Album of year neither is any other rapper anytime soon and I think everyone realizes that or already knew better. It will take awhile maybe another generation but, eventually a rap album will win album of the year.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Once upon a time, Esperanza Spalding beat out Justin Bieber for Best New Artist.
That's the last time I can recall The Grammy's doing something interesting.
Let's face it: it's very difficult for a hip-hop album that isn't pop and has a layerd, complex message you have to dissect to win an award like AoTY. It's why OutKast's worst album was the one that won a Grammy: it had the simplest, flakiest crossover hits. With respect, I'm pretty sure white people liked "Hey Ya!" more than any of us.
If TPAB isn't AoTY worthy nothing will be in our lifetimes. It is a definitive hip-hop work and will be remembered 20 years from now as one of the genre's best of all time, where 1989 will be all but forgotten.
Jmanunknown
Member
What is this bs your on about only matter when it works in your favor but goes out the window when it doesn't? Where did I say it does not qualify why are you making up stuff to get upset about? Do you even understand your own stance? I would have been happy with Chris Stapleton's or Alabama Shakes albums winning and Of Course Taylor's Album sold more and was more popular.
The Widget
Neo Member
It's a bit early to call, but I'll be shocked if Adele doesn't win this Grammy next year for '25'.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
As a Taylor Swift fan, a Weeknd fan, and a Kendrick Lamar fan...as an album Kendrick's was the best out of the three, followed by the Weekend, and then Taylor Swift as last.
Jmanunknown
Member
Unless something crazy happens this is pretty much a lock.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Maybe you should re-read your previous post?
You basically say there isn't even an argument to be made for Heavy Metal because its not as popular. Did you phrase that badly or did I mis-interpret?
I made my stance pretty clear in my first post. I don't feel like this is some slight against Hip Hop in particular, and is just another example of these award shows always going for the works that are most popular and not the best performances or technical skill.
I personally would have rather seen Kendrick take home the award as his album was amazing and he is one of a handful of new hip hop artists that I really do respect. However, I don't think this discussion goes anywhere if it focuses on a limited number of genres.
- Status