• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Verge: New Hololens impressions "demo videos are all basically a lie"

Nope, not just him.

The only people who think the industry is becoming incompetent are the ones who have absolutely no idea how new technology is created and how much time, blood, sweat, and tears go into its creation.

The amount of people here who expect new tech to be perfect in its first implementation is absolutely mind-boggling. It's like these people just expect these big tech companies to snap their fingers and, boom, new tech is birthed.

It doesn't work that way.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
That fov is garbage. Is it me or is this industry becoming incompetent. Legalizing mary jane has turned the computer industry to mush-brained morons. "Duur lets hololens thru this tiny box THEY'LL LOVE IT

Its not a question of incompetence in R&D. Making anything hardware is hard, especially entirely new paradigms and steps into a new world of tech. What you ARE seeing more and more of however is the result of decades of no accountability and corporate structures that have devolved into what outsiders view as spine-chilling madness.

When you have the money to just buy Minecraft and whatever else, are there repercussions at all to playing fast and loose with the truth because its "the vision of the future"? What do numbers mean anyway, we can just go back to One or skip to 10. With a billion dollar marketing campaign, people will come around to no used games, right?

The only people who think the industry is becoming incompetent are the ones who have absolutely no idea how new technology is created and how much time, blood, sweat, and tears go into its creation.

The amount of people here who expect new tech to be perfect in its first implementation is absolutely mind-boggling. It's like these people just expect these big tech companies to snap their fingers and, boom, new tech is birthed.

It doesn't work that way.

What you are seeing is Microsoft racing to a party 6-8 years early with adult pants around their ankles because the VR supershow is just about to begin and they chose the AR road. Techs nowhere near ready beyond demo amusements, but theyre gonna try and force it anyway because Mother Brain doesnt want to be pants'd like with smartphones and tablets again. "We can just... gloss over the FOV thing and occlusion stuff on that first go around right?" "No such thing as bad press!" "WOLF! WOLF! THERES A WOLF!"
 

gypsygib

Member
So it's basically Kinect all over again.

I was starting to get that feeling too. MS promised the world with Kinect and it barely functioned better than a button-less dpad controller with voice control.

Scan in skateboards and 1-1 control never happened. Milo was a total lie, the list goes on.
 
...

What you are seeing is Microsoft racing to a party 6-8 years early with adult pants around their ankles because the VR supershow is just about to begin and they chose the AR road. Techs nowhere near ready beyond demo amusements, but theyre gonna try and force it anyway because Mother Brain doesnt want to be pants'd like with smartphones and tablets again. "We can just... gloss over the FOV thing and occlusion stuff on that first go around right?" "No such thing as bad press!" "WOLF! WOLF! THERES A WOLF!"

That's why many are skeptical.

It would have been better if they showed this behind closed doors instead of making a big demo that would have been, and is being, scrutinized left and right
 
you dont wireless for this kind of thing really. it introduces too much of a delay. All the same problems that apply to VR also apply to AR and then there are some further issues to solve. OVeral MS's tech is impressive its a shame they feel the need to oversell it though.

What if they used the Wii U Gamepad's tech?
 
Ars Technica said that the original HoloLens demo was actually representative, but the fov this time round was smaller.

That's because last time round the demo unit was wired up and had shoulder mounted CPU units etch, but this time they're now demoing fully mobile visors. They created hundreds apparently for people to demo.

That means that what MS are showcasing is not a "lie". It is possible. It is doable.

The hardware just needs to be available for it to happen, which will obviously take time and many iterations.

This iteration brought the actual advertised fully independent headset.

Whos to say the next iteration wont bring the FOV people like Ars have commented is possible and have actually seen along with the mobility?

And for people talking about the verge being in Microsoft's pockets......... The verge does not like Microsoft.......... they're almost MS , wtf?
 
Kinect was a single piece of hardware tied to a low-powered system, it didn't really have much room to grow aside from software optimisation. Hololens is a platform on which multiple devices will release and evolve over time, so we're not stuck with the shortcomings of the first prototype. It's more akin to the advent of VR in which everyone was saying "This is mindblowing, but the resolution is really bad and there is significant tracking judder/latency issues". 3 years later and the tracking is virtually a none-issue and the resolution has already shown significant improvements, and will continue to do so. I think AR is a harder challenge than VR so it might take longer to get things to the level consumers want, but it'll be able to grow in a way Kinect wasn't afforded.

People are impatient, and while they're clamoring for VR to release, Oculus and Valve have made the smart move and waited until it's ready. Kinect is a good example of something that was perhaps released too soon and it completely soured gamers on the technology. (good) VR companies are trying to avoid giving people a bad first VR experience as much as possible, and I hope Microsoft have the patience with Hololens to not push it out before it's more fully formed.

Well the issue with Microsoft's approach is that we have no idea what they are trying to do with this idea. Are we expecting it to grow or is it going to be like Kinect where they sell millions of them and then just bury whole idea. Companies are being patient with VR and might end up selling those as experiences rather than video game peripherals. It might or it might not work... With Microsoft we have no idea what they are doing and if you look at their previous ventures in this market it does not look promising...
 

StudioTan

Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
So? It's still not what Miscrosoft was promising. And it isn't amazing for the reasons journalists were parsing it for. I like cool new ideas, but if something seems futuristic it's probably BS. It takes a while to get ideas to where you need them to be.

Seems to me it was exactly what they promised. It just ended up being only useful for a handful of game types.
 
What if they used the Wii U Gamepad's tech?

The delay is a small part of the problem, but the bigger part of it is the vision for the device and how you use it.

Delay is more acceptable in AR applications because you're still grounded by the actual environment, so you won't get motion sickness due to a delay like you do in VR.

The bigger issue is that they want this to be a mobile device so that could walk around your house with this thing. It needs to be self-contained and not be fenced in by limits. I can't even play my WiiU in my bedroom because there are two walls in the way, and the gamepad loses a connection. Imagine having that limitation with the HoloLens where all of a sudden the device doesn't work because you went behind a wall. That's why it's an all in one system.
 
That fov is garbage. Is it me or is this industry becoming incompetent. Legalizing mary jane has turned the computer industry to mush-brained morons. "Duur lets hololens thru this tiny box THEY'LL LOVE IT

What the fuck is this stupidity?

Are products not allowed to evolve anymore? Does anyone remember the first HDTVs that only displayed in 720p and were 7-inch thick monstrosities? Remember when the original iPhone couldn't record video or even copy and paste? Comments like these are dripping with ignorance and selective memory when it comes to the very iterative history of electronics.
What you are seeing is Microsoft racing to a party 6-8 years early with adult pants around their ankles because the VR supershow is just about to begin and they chose the AR road. Techs nowhere near ready beyond demo amusements, but theyre gonna try and force it anyway because Mother Brain doesnt want to be pants'd like with smartphones and tablets again. "We can just... gloss over the FOV thing and occlusion stuff on that first go around right?" "No such thing as bad press!" "WOLF! WOLF! THERES A WOLF!"

When has this ever not been the case, ever in the history of new technologies? "HD" started becoming the buzzword as early as the mid to late 90's at events like these. With any new tech that became a mainstay in the arena, the first consumer iteration has always been an unaffordable premature, cumbersome embarrassment of a product compared to the iterations that would follow. I don't see anything occurring differently here.
 

StudioTan

Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?

You mean Microsoft didn't invent human AI? No shit, there's a lot of AI faking in that video but in terms of tech everything they do in that video is stuff that Kinect can do. It can recognize your face, my Kinect does this when I turn on my Xbox and it logs me in. It can understand voice commands. It can understand inflections in your voice like Fifa does if you yell at the refs. It can read your hand gestures and react to them, they did that in a number of games. It can use the camera to scan stuff like paper, it does this with stuff like QR codes.

I'm not saying there wasn't a lot of Peter Molyneux smoke and mirrors in that video but the tech can do all that stuff, all the fakery was in the software they were showing.
 

Crayon

Member
The amount of people here who expect new tech to be perfect in its first implementation is absolutely mind-boggling. It's like these people just expect these big tech companies to snap their fingers and, boom, new tech is birthed.

There are "people here" who expected shit to be perfect? I think some may have a) expected it to look like what they showed, and some others who b) expected ms to be full of shit as usual. Are you in group a or b? They way you're talkin, sounds like group b. You never believed that demo. Too smart for that huh.


What the fuck is this stupidity?

Are products not allowed to evolve anymore? Does anyone remember the first HDTVs that only displayed in 720p and were 7-inch thick monstrosities? Remember when the original iPhone couldn't record video or even copy and paste? Comments like these are dripping with ignorance and selective memory when it comes to the very iterative history of electronics.

When has this ever not been the case, ever in the history of new technologies? "HD" started becoming the buzzword as early as the mid to late 90's at events like these. With any new tech that became a mainstay in the arena, the first consumer iteration has always been an unaffordable premature, cumbersome embarrassment of a product compared to the iterations that would follow. I don't see anything occurring differently here.

Who are you spinning for? Product not allowed to evolve? Seriously who are you trying to fool? A casual skim thru any page of this thead and it's plain that the issue is a blatant misrepresentation of a product from a company who has demonstrated recently and more than once that they think their users are idiots. And it's rubbing off on you because here you are lazily contorting this into "oh you expected too much". gtfo w that. It wouldn't be so insulting if you actually believed yourself, but you don't.
 

Mr_Zombie

Member
The Ars article mentions, that in the original HoloLens units (early prototypes) FOV was much better and it only decreased now.

The January prototypes didn't fill your entire field of view. The edges of the "screen" were visible. But they weren't this tight. I could look around a bit and still see the holograms. This time around, I couldn't.

And that FOV in current build aren't finalized. So maybe, just maybe before people start jumping at Microsoft and calling them lairs, we should wait for the final product? Just saying.

Not to mention, even with the limited FOV I still think the product looks (and from opinion I've read - works) great. It's just limited at the time - you have to constantly look straight ahead.

Ugh, that Star Wars clip still annoys me.

Do they think everybody is just that dense to believe that?

What a crock.

Given that the Star Wars clip was a part of the Kinect Cirque Du Soleil Event where no one even pretended shown demos are played in real time (those were parts of the dance routine)... Yes, how could anyone believe that.
 
Hololens is not a product made primarily for gaming or other entertainment. It seems more like a tool for CAD first, and I don't think the FOV is as much of an issue there.
 

NoPiece

Member
What the fuck is this stupidity?

Are products not allowed to evolve anymore? Does anyone remember the first HDTVs that only displayed in 720p and were 7-inch thick monstrosities? Remember when the original iPhone couldn't record video or even copy and paste? Comments like these are dripping with ignorance and selective memory when it comes to the very iterative history of electronics.

When has this ever not been the case, ever in the history of new technologies? "HD" started becoming the buzzword as early as the mid to late 90's at events like these. With any new tech that became a mainstay in the arena, the first consumer iteration has always been an unaffordable premature, cumbersome embarrassment of a product compared to the iterations that would follow. I don't see anything occurring differently here.

Is the better analogy for Hololens the original iPhone, or the Newton? Were the developers and purchasers of the Newton burned because Apple over promised, then delivered an "unaffordable premature, cumbersome embarrassment of a product?"

I haven't seen anyone claim AR technology wouldn't eventually be compelling, but faking some amazing videos and photos, then under delivering on the actual product doesn't help.
 

StudioTan

Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
They promised you will be scanning your skateboard in in seconds and will be talking to virtual people. Not even remotely close. :)

Did you block this out? E3 2009: Project Natal Xbox 360 Announcement

It can do pretty much everything in that video, it just wasn't all implemented into games. Also, that video is clearly labeled "Product Vision: actual features and functionality may vary".
 
There are "people here" who expected shit to be perfect? I think some may have a) expected it to look like what they showed, and some others who b) expected ms to be full of shit as usual. Are you in group a or b? They way you're talkin, sounds like group b. You never believed that demo. Too smart for that huh

I saw the demo for what it was: a vision they had for the future of their new product line. Anyone who expected the first iteration of the product to behave exactly like it did in the video has no one to blame but themselves, quite honestly.

But hey, makes for some good GIF's and gives people another excuse to trash Microsoft and come up with highly intelligent drive-by quips like "Kinect 3.0"
 

Froli

Member
From neowin website
kUYquHH.png

The colored part is what only shows on the FOV, the rest is cut off.
 

yazanov

Banned
I saw the demo for what it was: a vision they had for the future of their new product line. Anyone who expected the first iteration of the product to behave exactly like it did in the video has no one to blame but themselves, quite honestly.

But hey, makes for some good GIF's and gives people another excuse to trash Microsoft and come up with highly intelligent drive-by quips like "Kinect 3.0"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A

Why are you people hurt by the Kinect 3.0 comment? Ms has already fooled us twise with their dishonest advertising of their Kinects. Why would we give them the benefit of the doubt? This looks to be the same shit all over again until proven otherwise.
 
Who are you spinning for? Product not allowed to evolve? Seriously who are you trying to fool? A casual skim thru any page of this thead and it's plain that the issue is a blatant misrepresentation of a product from a company who has demonstrated recently and more than once that they think their users are idiots. And it's rubbing off on you because here you are lazily contorting this into "oh you expected too much". gtfo w that. It wouldn't be so insulting if you actually believed yourself, but you don't.

Hahaha. Jesus Christ dude let it go. There are still gonna be people out there excited for this and future improvements, no matter how much you want us not to be.

In summary:

IUek6.gif


On topic: I do hope the FoV widens as time goes on. We're what, 3 years from the Oculus Rift kickstarter and there still isn't a shipping version? Look at what can be accomplished with time and a better understanding of the problem space. I'm excite!
 

jem0208

Member
Regardless of the current low FoV, I'm still ridiculously excited for this tech.

Before the HoloLens announcement I considered this sort of thing still in the realm of sci fi. Give it a few years and we'll have this completely integrated into standard glasses. I can't wait.
 

Darksol

Member
I feel like anyone who still takes Microsoft presentations and demos at their word deserves the inevitable disappointment that comes with trusting them.

I need to see their final product in the wild, not reviewed by a large site - just average people testing out the tech in natural conditions. We know how fond they are of smoke and mirrors.

As always, I want to be wrong and for their product to work as well as they claim it does. But I'm not foolish enough to trust them.
 

Three

Member
So ur gonna tell a guy who has tried it both times and wrote about it on arks technical that it was a lie? Smh...

The "arks technical" hands on mentions the fact that it jumped around for a while if you care to read it, or maybe even the TheRoadToVR link I provided earlier, and this is in a controlled environment. I'm not saying hololens doesn't exist, but clearly, as I've repeated, the demo presentation at the build conference was clearly staged and is not representative of the experience in its current form. I don't have a problem with the hands on demos even though I'm sceptical of those too since they are clearly in controlled environments. Read some hands on Milo reviews if you want to know. The flat geometric furniture and high contrast lines or textured walls aren't some interior designers choice, it helps markerless tracking. There isn't some fake Georgian window because it looks nice it's there because the high contrast parallel and perpendicular lines help in "markerless" tracking. You need reference points to help get a position

Anyway I don't have a problem with the hands on in controlled environments which were nice, I'm talking about the stage presentation which did not act like the hands on. It had no lag, no jitter and the FOV was completely false. If you think the presentation wasn't staged how do you explain the missed interaction? Why did the window turn without any input. Somebody tried to say it was eyetracking but let me reiterate, the Hololens does NOT have eye tracking. Only Gaze (as in where your head is pointing), finger gesture selection, and voice.

The demo press saw back in January was the same except for a larger FOV... It's nothing to do with a flat screen.

That flat piece of glass in front of your eyes is not for show. That flat piece of glass is the Hololens that creates the virtual image you see.

It uses Kinect tech to build a spatial map of the environment. It's difficult to know exactly how far it can see (I didn't get a chance to play with the render front and backplane distance) but I think it should be good for 15 feet or more. In the tutorial we made the spatial map visible (Unity can render it as a triangle mesh) we could see it being continuously built and rebuilt as people moved around.

Indeed it does, but the markerless tracking is not likely to be done by the spatial map. It will lower battery life significantly or be limited by distance, and by sunny environments. It would also be laggy if the wireframe demo is anything to go by. The tracking relies heavily on actual image tracking I'd imagine. Think of it this way. If you had a wall, a wall is a plane, the wall would look the same wherever you looked at it from. You might be able to use the spatial information to determine rotation but translation on the plane would have no effect. How do you anchor something to a plane/wall well? By using a marker on the plane; an X or some other point you can track via a standard camera. The fact that all the on stage demos have had textured walls with parallel/perpendicular lines or Georgian windows should tell you enough about how they do their tracking. Ofcourse what would help is if MS actually talked new tech instead of staged demos. Like Kinect, like cloud or like Hololens now. Talk about your tech, don't overpromise things that are not entirely practical like the stupid big screen on the stage demo that would be of no use since the FOV is like a 42" TV at six feet.
 

Raist

Banned
I saw the demo for what it was: a vision they had for the future of their new product line. Anyone who expected the first iteration of the product to behave exactly like it did in the video has no one to blame but themselves, quite honestly.

But hey, makes for some good GIF's and gives people another excuse to trash Microsoft and come up with highly intelligent drive-by quips like "Kinect 3.0"

MS shouldn't be doing these "future vision" videos and worse, super-carefully controlled stage "demos" with custom camera views that are not at all representative of what the product is actually capable of. It's really no different than bullshots and gameplay demos running on ridiculous PC rigs.
 
The only people who think the industry is becoming incompetent are the ones who have absolutely no idea how new technology is created and how much time, blood, sweat, and tears go into its creation.

The amount of people here who expect new tech to be perfect in its first implementation is absolutely mind-boggling. It's like these people just expect these big tech companies to snap their fingers and, boom, new tech is birthed.

It doesn't work that way.

That happens all the time. Some companies reveal new tech once it's finished (Apple is historically good at this, analog sticks and motion controllers were revealed at final prototype stage, etc), others all along the way. The ones who reveal all along the way are typically desperate for attention and looking for grassroots hype. But the baseline has to be good. Oculus Rift baseline was good. This Hololense prototype is a poor baseline. Microsoft revealed it too soon if indeed they will get fill FOV. Also, Microsoft has a bad history of lying about the future capabilities of their products. So they don't get the goodwill that a company like Oculus got.
 

yazanov

Banned
That happens all the time. Some companies reveal new tech once it's finished (Apple is historically good at this, analog sticks and motion controllers were revealed at final prototype stage, etc), others all along the way. The ones who reveal all along the way are typically desperate for attention and looking for grassroots hype. But the baseline has to be good. Oculus Rift baseline was good. This Hololense prototype is a poor baseline. Microsoft revealed it too soon if indeed they will get fill FOV. Also, Microsoft has a bad history of lying about the future capabilities of their products. So they don't get the goodwill that a company like Oculus got.


Exactly. Ms has a track record of bullshit smoke and mirror marketing products that does not represent reality. If it were another company introducing the Hololens, people will be more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Microsoft doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt after project Natal aka Kinect. Hence, all the kinect 3.0 comments .
 
MS shouldn't be doing these "future vision" videos and worse, super-carefully controlled stage "demos" with custom camera views that are not at all representative of what the product is actually capable of. It's really no different than bullshots and gameplay demos running on ridiculous PC rigs.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with "future vision" videos. It shows they have high aspirations for the technology. It got me very excited about it.

But I'm not expecting the first hardware iteration to do everything in the video. I'm conditioned to expect this sort of showy performance from Microsoft, it's what they do. They like painting a pretty picture. They've been like this as far as I can remember.

Keeping one's expectations in check is necessary when dealing with new product ideas from Microsoft. But I'm not cynical enough to flat out call them liars because their first hardware design is a tad immature and doesn't immediately match their vision word-for-word.

Technology is a process, it's not instant, nor is a technology company going to hit a home run each time. For me, they get lots of points for simply trying to do something different, especially when plenty of other companies aren't doing anything special at all.
 

Alebrije

Member
Since the Milo Kinec lie/ failure is hard to believe a company like MS about new video game interfaces, now we have this Verge's video.

Meanwhile do not Believe MS, let them develope their toys and maybe someday they will cope your expectations. Its a simple rule, do not expect a anything they show on thier videos and updates, every time they update somethig remember Milo, do not create a hype train , this way on 5-10 years if they reales the hololents you wont be dessapointed.
 
From neowin website

The colored part is what only shows on the FOV, the rest is cut off.
Anyone who's seen Use Your Own Gear should know better than to trust MS, but that's a lot worse than I'd imagined. Obviously, it wouldn't fill your full field of view like they were depicting, but I just assumed it would at least be comparable with current VR rigs. Ironically, the "35 to 40 degree" FoV is narrower than the HMZ that was often cited to pre-mock Morpheus. And the vertical size seems even smaller; certainly doesn't look 16:9, at least.

Anyone happen to know how they're mapping the environment? Are they? What about tracking the headset itself?


lol That was terrible.


MS shouldn't be doing these "future vision" videos and worse, super-carefully controlled stage "demos" with custom camera views that are not at all representative of what the product is actually capable of. It's really no different than bullshots and gameplay demos running on ridiculous PC rigs.
Dude, it's a product vision. We're supposed to be imagining the possibilities here.
 
THEY'RE NOT HOLOGRAMS!!!!!

This is a hologram:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDRTghGZ7XU

What hololens does is AUGMENTED REALITY.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper's_ghost

What you posted is not a hologram... It's an optical illusion (but it certainly looks like a hologram, and very loosely could be called a hologram).

AR and holographic displays are also not exclusive categories.

I'd rather not get into the debate, but just because something is not free standing does not mean it is not a holographic display... It's a bit more nuanced than that.
 
But the question is can you try a dress on. :) It's funny that you are still buying Microsoft's BS about Kinect. A good news is that nobody else believes it. :)

It's not BS though? The technology to scan objects and voice recognition is there, just because game developers haven't utilised it doesn't magic it out of existence.
 
It's not BS though? The technology to scan objects and voice recognition is there, just because game developers haven't utilised it doesn't magic it out of existence.

Pretty much. I've seen people use Kinect in plenty of ways outside of gaming.

Maybe it wasn't the revolution in video games that Microsoft wanted it to be, but the tech itself still has plenty of uses, 3d modeling being one of the most common I've seen.
 

Novocaine

Member
I can't say I'm surprised, but then is this the product they will be shipping? And even then, this is definitely something that will need to be tried before throwing money down on, same goes for the VR helmets and any kind of new tech like this IMO.

Also that "It's really good except when it's really terrible" remark on the video gave my super douche chills. Ugh.
 

magnumpy

Member
I think the problem is that most people imagine holograms to be as portrayed in the holodeck on star trek. obviously that's not real, just a tv show, but what other examples of a hologram could you reference. well there was that old sega arcade game "time traveler" that used holograms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9958AbBMG9w&t=0m45s

maybe it's time to put the whole idea of holograms to bed. it's not something that imo could be useful for videogames. maybe for advertisements?
 

Zedox

Member
So once the FOV is fixed...I wonder what people will shit on next about it...im just glad that it seems that everything else worked. The other tech in it is what had me worried. No wires, no phone or pc to connect tether to, voice recognition, opacity, etc...E3 is gonna interesting. I know that they wont have new model by then... its a month , but I do expect more news about the updates to the tech by the end of the year. Still exciting tech.
 

NoPiece

Member
So once the FOV is fixed...I wonder what people will shit on next about it...im just glad that it seems that everything else worked. The other tech in it is what had me worried. No wires, no phone or pc to connect tether to, voice recognition, opacity, etc...E3 is gonna interesting. I know that they wont have new model by then... its a month , but I do expect more news about the updates to the tech by the end of the year. Still exciting tech.

The next thing people will criticize is how stupid people will look walking around wearing it. Like Google Glass times 10.
 
Top Bottom