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[thuway]

They can overclock the CPU part of the APU and to put a fucking HD 7970 as GPU part inside of it if they want.


Check what yosp thinks about the comparisions with farmers.

"Like putting a fucking HD 7970 inside the APU."

Hehe

DING DING DING! Seven years, diminishing returns and conventional hardware. It would be foolish for Sony to skimp out on hardware. Sony must stick the 8000 or 9000 series equivalent of a 7970 with redundancies cut down. We are looking at nothing short of a beast inside of a 200-250 watt budget.

 

[Canis lupus]

They can put a custom 28nm Oland Pro.

 

[thuway]

They can put a custom 28nm Oland Pro.

The 7970 is approximately 3.7 TF. So it would be somewhere in the middle there between Oland Pro and XT . A heavily customized XT would work. It could fit into 130-140 watt budget if the rest of the console stays within a 70 watt room.

Edit: Also the chart has alot of FUD. IT's being reported that the 8000 series will be no more than 30% more efficient (15-20% realistically).

 

[itsgreen]

They can put a custom 28nm Oland Pro.

Has this been confirmed somewhere, because it doesn't make any sense to me that a power reduction can coexist with an 80% performance increase... At least not when it isn't an entire new architecture... (Afaik the 8 series are an iteration), also together with a price drop... that is the stuff that fanboys dream off and will never happen...

 

[thuway]

Has this been confirmed somewhere, because it doesn't make any sense to me that a power reduction can coexist with an 80% performance increase... At least not when it isn't an entire new architecture...

Charley from Semiaccurate is reporting that we shouldn't be too optimistic about the 8000 series from AMD. Only 15% of a performance boost will be seen. So you are somewhat correct in doubting the validity of this chart.

 

[Yopis]

I honestly see Orbis launching a few months later with an edge in performance. Sony's built a reputation with fantastic visuals, I don't expect them to skimp out on any thing.

Sony was never the console graphics king superhero until this gen though. Maybe they will go back to their roots.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Sony was never the console graphics king superhero until this gen though. Maybe they will go back to their roots.

They were always ahead of the game at launch. They can't stop progress from later released systems though

 

[MDX]

Exactly, just because Sony is in a weaker position than it was in 2006 doesn't mean they'll cheapen their next console. They're a company driven by engineers.

They can make a console that'll cost them 349, but sell it at a loss for 299, they can make a console that'll cost them 399 and sell it at 449 and make money on every unit sold.

And how much for retailers ?

 

[jeff_rigby]

The OP says:

- 'is based on the AMD’s A10 APU series.'
- 'PS4′s APU was described today as a “derivative” of existing A10 hardware. The hardware is “based on A10 system and base platform”.'

Which means that is a customized and not the normal available in the market. And if they customize it will be to make something new more powerful than the current family of hardware available in the market, as they did with Vita. They can overclock the CPU part of the APU and to put a fucking HD 7970 as GPU part inside of it if they want.

Doesn't make sense to consider that PS4 is going to be something equivalent to WiiU because PS3 is already close to it. So if they PS4 is at least a 4x or 5x PS3 ducktaped (the least of the options with normal A10 PC specs) will be way more powerful than WiiU. Considering that the devkits have 8/16GB, this leads to think that PS4 will have at least 4GB or RAM, which is 8X PS3 ducktaped.

These specs aren't made to play Mass Effect 3 and Batman AA, because PS3 already runs them. If WiiU gets multiplatform games will be with PS3/360/Vita, and not with Orbis/Durango.

Check what yosp thinks about the comparisions with farmers.

We don't want to throw away the facts compiled in other threads that support speculation on the PS4. The things I garner from this recent "rumor" are:

1) 1 SoC not APU + discrete GPU if possible, it's much cheaper to have one APU/SoC than to support two memory pools and two power supplies and two packages that make a more complicated motherboard.

2) Confirmation of the min spec; 1080P@60Hz and if it's not in error and is indeed 1080P @ 60HZ S3D then a new HDMI standard and support for that mode in a 4K TV. A Sony slide show found by gofreak mentions support for 5 view 1080P S3D to support glassless S3D on a 4K TV. In the PDF of the slide show it's mentioned that 300 FPS and separate views (assumption is a different S3D perspective for each of the 5 views that are at about 20 degree angles from each other) would require 300FPS and 10X PS3 GPU performance. Glassless 4K is supposed to support 5 viewing angles that can have separate content/video streams.

The slide show found by gofreak also went on to describe 2.5D and 3D stacked memory needed to support the bandwidth needed for 300FPS and the glassless S3D for a 4K TV. A early rumor from bgassassin mentioned GDDR5 to be used in the PS4. This could be for a second GPU or more likely as an example for similar memory bandwidth.

3) Biggest are the dates and the mentioning of 4 developer versions.

" There are to be four versions of the dev kit, we were told. A previous version was essentially just a graphics card. The version shipping now is a “modified PC,” and the third version, appearing in January, will be close to final spec. A final version will be delivered to developers “next summer”."

So a beta containing the final chip won't appear till summer 2013. That pushes timetables later than we expected for a 2013 launch. "with a final version slated to appear in January" so Launch is 2014 sometime. (The article is confusing, 4 versions with the final beta summer and January. Final chip to appear in January 2013 and Final beta to developers in "Summer" 2013 is too long, Final beta chip summer 2013 with final chip and assembled PS4 for developers January 2014 makes more sense.) In any case it's too late for a 2013 launch.

I pointed out the roadmap for 2014 designs and 20nm are supposedly on time while 28nm was delayed. We can be confidant that the PS4 will at least be 28nm with some 2014 designs and less likely but looking more possible with this latest rumor at 20nm. If at 20nm then fitting more GPU into the APU/SoC is possible and is limited mostly by yield if using Jaguar CPUs. Also at 20nm the work on 22nm registers for "Cell" and the 1PPU4SPU patent might have BC in the PS4.

 

[thuway]

In any case it's too late for a 2013 launch.


If at 20nm then fitting more GPU into the APU/SoC is possible and is limited mostly by yield if using Jaguar CPUs. Also at 20nm the work on 22nm registers for "Cell" and the 1PPU4SPU patent might have BC in the PS4.

Bingo. Spot-on. Well said. We are looking at almost 4 TF of power here. People are forgetting, Sony hasn't committed yet. Final devkits won't be out till Summer of 2013. Microsoft is final and taping out. The 20nm yields sound awesome, and a 20nm card will have incredible performance boosts. We could look at a gen where ports will be 720p on Durango, and 1080p or 720p 60fps on Orbis.

The real question is: Will the six month wait kill them?

 

[Canis lupus]

And how much for retailers ?

It was a very basic example to show they can sell a powerful console at a high price and still make money. If PS3 sold at $900 they would have broke even at launch aswel, not that it would have sold much.

Has this been confirmed somewhere, because it doesn't make any sense to me that a power reduction can coexist with an 80% performance increase... At least not when it isn't an entire new architecture... (Afaik the 8 series are an iteration), also together with a price drop... that is the stuff that fanboys dream off and will never happen...

Chart seems optimistic indeed, but I do think they'll go with the more power efficient 8800 series than a year old enthousiast gpu model. 8870 will probably have the same performance as a 7970 but with a lot less power consumption.

 

[Hiro_Kunimi_80]

Final Dev kit of X360 were shipped AFTER the E3 2005..

so there's plenty of time

 

[thuway]

Final Dev kit of X360 were shipped AFTER the E3 2005..

so there's plenty of time

And than RROD happened. The current rumour is Durango has a 6970 with 8 GB of RAM, and is experiencing yield issues.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/rumor-production-problems-push-xbox-720-release-date-to-2014/

 

[gaming_noob]

Bingo. Spot-on. Well said. We are looking at almost 4 TF of power here. People are forgetting, Sony hasn't committed yet. Final devkits won't be out till Summer of 2013. Microsoft is final and taping out. The 20nm yields sound awesome, and a 20nm card will have incredible performance boosts. We could look at a gen where ports will be 720p on Durango, and 1080p or 720p 60fps on Orbis.

The real question is: Will the six month wait kill them?

wow.. All speculation.. what will happen to you if Durango is more powerful?

 

[dragonelite]

256GB of storage is actually normal regarding SDD harddrives. Some quick examples:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147193
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227792

You also have 128GB and 512GB SDD harddrives as well.

I think he is talking about giga bit(Gb) to giga byte(GB) conversion.
So 256Gb is the same as 32GB as in 8bits in a byte so 265Gb divided by 8 is 32 GB.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Bingo. Spot-on. Well said. We are looking at almost 4 TF of power here. People are forgetting, Sony hasn't committed yet. Final devkits won't be out till Summer of 2013. Microsoft is final and taping out. The 20nm yields sound awesome, and a 20nm card will have incredible performance boosts.

The real question is: Will the six month wait kill them?

Remember the yield issue, with a more complex GPU, yield will suffer. I think you are being too optimistic and others @ 1-1.5 TF too pessimistic. You don't get both TDP and performance boosts, one or the other or a lesser combination of both.

We have only rumors and they are contradicting each other. There is no doubt that 2014 is AMDs target date for 20nm, 3D stacking, Full HSA and everything they have been planning since 2008. I can't see either Microsoft or Sony not taking advantage of this "revolution" and shipping 6 months early only getting parts of the next generation technology advantages.

 

[thuway]

wow.. All speculation.. what will happen to you if Durango is more powerful?

The differences between the two will not be an order of magnitude. It will play out similarly to this generation. A 20-30% boost in one, where exclusives will be the only one to show off the differences really.

 

[KAL2006]

I wouldnt mind waiting till 2014. PS3 still has plenty of software like Last of Us, Beyond, Puppeteer, God of War Ascension, LittleBigPlanet Racing, Last Guardian, Sly Cooper and then you got multiplats like Tomb Raider, Bioshock, Crysis 3, GTA5, Dead Space 3, DmC, MGS Rising, MGS Ground Zeros, Castlevania, Fuse, Remember Me, Dragon Age 3, Watch Dogs and etc. Also I think Sony need to push Vita more in 2012, Killzone, Tearaway, Soul Sacrifice are a good start.

 

[SniperHunter]

I wouldnt mind waiting till 2014. PS3 still has plenty of software like Last of Us, Beyond, Puppeteer, God of War Ascension, LittleBigPlanet Racing, Last Guardian, Sly Cooper and then you got multiplats like Tomb Raider, Bioshock, Crysis 3, GTA5, Dead Space 3, DmC, MGS Rising, MGS Ground Zeros, Castlevania, Fuse, Remember Me, Dragon Age 3, Watch Dogs and etc. Also I think Sony need to push Vita more in 2012, Killzone, Tearaway, Soul Sacrifice are a good start.

if they continue to wait it out, they will have another PS3 on their hands. They need to go balls out with PS4 ASAP

Dragon Age 3, Watch Dogs are next gen titles btw

 

[Eideka]

And than RROD happened. The current rumour is Durango has a 6970 with 8 GB of RAM, and is experiencing yield issues.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/rumor-production-problems-push-xbox-720-release-date-to-2014/

So unlike last time next-gen consoles won't match mid range PCs from 2013 it seems....

I hope that the next Xbox will have a beefier GPU than a 2011 Ati card....

 

[Hiro_Kunimi_80]

And than RROD happened. The current rumour is Durango has a 6970 with 8 GB of RAM, and is experiencing yield issues.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/rumor-production-problems-push-xbox-720-release-date-to-2014/

Microsoft's manufacturing partners were hired to produce 10,000 microchips for the Xbox 720 in January. Only hundreds are said to work.

rather old yield

basically 20 months before "a possible" ( and inevitable ) release date

 

[Router]

I wouldnt mind waiting till 2014. PS3 still has plenty of software like Last of Us, Beyond, Puppeteer, God of War Ascension, LittleBigPlanet Racing, Last Guardian, Sly Cooper and then you got multiplats like Tomb Raider, Bioshock, Crysis 3, GTA5, Dead Space 3, DmC, MGS Rising, MGS Ground Zeros, Castlevania, Fuse, Remember Me, Dragon Age 3, Watch Dogs and etc. Also I think Sony need to push Vita more in 2012, Killzone, Tearaway, Soul Sacrifice are a good start.

Watch as half of those titles get pushed to next gen lol

 

[SniperHunter]

Watch as half of those titles get pushed to next gen lol

not going to happen, most of them are being released by Summer 2013

 

[Canis lupus]

Wasn't the RSX based on a gimped Nvidia 7800GTX? Isn't it likely the PS4 will have a gimped version of todays high end gpus?

 

[KojiKnight]

I'm going to broach this carefully as to not stir the hornets nest.... This thread reminds me of other threads where we got lots of rumors about things and then lots of people come in to rationalize and pump up specs...

Basically what I'm saying is that I hope people won't set themselves up too much for disappointment.

 

[i-Lo]

I'm going to broach this carefully as to not stir the hornets nest.... This thread reminds me of other threads where we got lots of rumors about things and then lots of people come in to rationalize and pump up specs...

Basically what I'm saying is that I hope people won't set themselves up too much for disappointment.

Pretty much this. I happy to be ultra conservative in estimate of a APU and GPU that is an underclocked equivalent of 87XX series (successor to 77XX) and 4GB RAM with 1GB tied for OS and remaining for games.

 

[Angelus Errare]

If not Google, then

Spoiler

Valve?

Doubt it, just wishful thinking on my part.

As a big Valve fan, I can say you're overromanticizing Valve WAY too much. Has Valve ever created an OS and I'm not aware? This is like saying you want an OS by Stardock because they make nice apps with years of iteration behind them.

 

[McHuj]

And than RROD happened. The current rumour is Durango has a 6970 with 8 GB of RAM, and is experiencing yield issues.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/rumor-production-problems-push-xbox-720-release-date-to-2014/

It's funny how the headline doesn't match the contents of the article. The original Semiaccurate article said that the chip had yield issues and may not meet the rumored September launch. The yields could cause delays and depending when they are able to get the yields up the delay could be a month, two, a whole quarter, etc. There was nothing definitive about a slip to 2014. Lots of if/thens and assumptions that rely on questionable validity of the original rumor.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Wasn't the RSX based on a gimped Nvidia 7800GTX? Isn't it likely the PS4 will have a gimped version of todays high end gpus?

Hmm I think there will be a greater focus on the GPU this time though. If they had approached the PS3 with the same mentality we would have had a stronger GPu and a weaker cell

 

[Dabanton]

I wouldnt mind waiting till 2014. PS3 still has plenty of software like Last of Us, Beyond, Puppeteer, God of War Ascension, LittleBigPlanet Racing, Last Guardian, Sly Cooper and then you got multiplats like Tomb Raider, Bioshock, Crysis 3, GTA5, Dead Space 3, DmC, MGS Rising, MGS Ground Zeros, Castlevania, Fuse, Remember Me, Dragon Age 3, Watch Dogs and etc. Also I think Sony need to push Vita more in 2012, Killzone, Tearaway, Soul Sacrifice are a good start.

If MS launches next autumn and has their own launch exclusives plus gets something like Star Wars 1313 or Watchdogs as accidental timed exclusives while Sony waits around till 2014 it's not going to go well imo.

This is not Sony coming from the mighty PS2 momentum and people happily waiting because Sony says the Xbox 360 was Xbox 1.5. This is a Sony that has seen it's once all powerful aura been pulled down by MS and Nintendo.

Letting MS who lets be honest actually know how to advertise their products properly, get out the door first is an own goal. And I'm sure MS launch games and no doubt obscene marketing budget for Durango/720 will see to that.

 

[yurinka]

Remember the yield issue, with a more complex GPU, yield will suffer. I think you are being too optimistic and others @ 1-1.5 TF too pessimistic. You don't get both TDP and performance boosts, one or the other or a lesser combination of both.

We have only rumors and they are contradicting each other. There is no doubt that 2014 is AMDs target date for 20nm, 3D stacking, Full HSA and everything they have been planning since 2008. I can't see either Microsoft or Sony not taking advantage of this "revolution" and shipping 6 months early only getting parts of the next generation technology advantages.

How about 28nm, around 3TF and to release the console in Q1 2014? What advantages would give them 20nm that they can't get in a future HW revision? Less heat? Less manufacturing cost? Less size?

I'm not a tech guy but if this move doesn't get them more power I think they'd prefer to release with a 28nm in order to have their console selling before, and if possible in time for Christmas. Their beta devkit can have the final specs even if it lacks some final touches and Sony would provide them retail consoles or debug consoles between the two devkit versions.

I mean, several times some games have been made with beta devkits or SDKs and they even didn't know the final specs in mid development. A softer example would be the PSM release games (their final SDK still have to be released), or Heavenly Sword as an example in consoles.

Remember also that Sony stated that this time they don't want to be late, and MS is rumored to release autumn or winter 2013.

And I'm sure MS launch games and no doubt obscene marketing budget for Durango/720 will see to that.

Well, if they spent what they spent on Kinect, I can't imagine what are they going to spend on 720...
Sony needs to hurry.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

Wasn't the RSX based on a gimped Nvidia 7800GTX? Isn't it likely the PS4 will have a gimped version of todays high end gpus?

The only difference, and it was a BIG one, they cut the memory interface back from a full fat 256 to a skinny latte 128bit.

If they hadn't have done that, the PS3 would have virtually none of the problems it faces in terms of performance when compared to the 360, it's why quite a few sacrifices have to be made by the devs in things such as particle effects,lighting, Anti Aliasing etc,when the 360 was the lead platform.

 

[Curufinwe]

if they continue to wait it out, they will have another PS3 on their hands. They need to go balls out with PS4 ASAP

Dragon Age 3, Watch Dogs are next gen titles btw

Source for DA 3 being a next gen title.

 

[BlackJace]

Are people really hoping for 3+TF gpus?

Really?

 

[RoboPlato]

They can put a custom 28nm Oland Pro.

Custom Oland Pro is exactly what I'm expecting and have been for a while. It fits well into the power/heat budget and can easily be modified to work for what ever specs they need or want.

 

[thuway]

Are people really hoping for 3+TF gpus?

Really?

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[BlackJace]

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

That's leaving the realms of reality, IMO. The last time I've kept up with the rumors, it was pointing to around 1.6-8 TF.

 

[RoboPlato]

Are people really hoping for 3+TF gpus?

Really?

Some of us, like me, are hoping some of those are used as a base to modify for the GPU. Obviously they'll be underclocked. Newer model GPUs would be cooler, less power hungry and more efficient plus they'll have refreshed features like better tessellation units and stuff. I'm expecting between 2 and 2.5 TFlops.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Yummy.


Did nobody tell Sony that only 0.000002% of the world use Ethernet?!


I'll happily pay for the right kit.

Online gaming, ethernet is the only choice.

 

[onQ123]

All I know is if these consoles come out with 8GB of ram we are going to see games way beyond what's on high end PCs right now because no games have been made with this kind of ram in mind.


& we might finally get our Pixar leveled games. (not completely but it's going to look good)

 

[yurinka]

I expect something between 2 and 3TF, and 4GB (8GB being too optimistic) or RAM.
But I'm pretty sure that the console won't cost more than $399, at least the base SKU, while selling it like $50 under cost. So they need to do some magic.

 

[onQ123]

I expect something between 2 and 3TF, and 4 ot 8GB or RAM.

I would have been happy with 2GB - 4GB of GDDR3 & 1.8 TFLOPS now I have to wrap my mind around what can be done with 8GB of ram & 3TF in a console & I can't even begin to to imagine what type of stuff we might be in for in the next 5 - 10 years.

 

[teh_pwn]

Hopefully it has a discrete GPU because AMD A10 is horrible. My budget Sandy Bridge laptop from 2011 has a better integrated GPU.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

All I know is if these consoles come out with 8GB of ram we are going to see games way beyond what's on high end PCs right now because no games have been made with this kind of ram in mind.

Lol...you could put 32Gb of RAM in a high end PC and it wont give you a single extra fps if the limiting factor is the CPU/GPU or both.

In PC gaming once you go beyond a certain amount, extra RAM becomes irrelevant.

All this talk of exotic fast RAM in the next consoles delivering miracles with mediocre CPU & GPU combos is laughable.

 

[thuway]

Lol...you could put 32Gb of RAM in a high end PC and it wont give you a single extra fps if the limiting factor is the CPU/GPU or both.

In PC gaming once you go beyond a certain amount, extra RAM becomes irrelevant.

All this talk of exotic fast RAM in the next consoles delivering miracles with mediocre CPU & GPU combos is laughable.

Developers have asked for more RAM.

 

[teh_pwn]

But 32 GB of RAM? For the hardware we're talking about, I cannot see anything more than 12 GB making a difference. Unless developers want to use the remaining 20 GB as sort of a memory cache to improve load times. Maybe quietly loading that memory over time is a cheaper solution than SSD.

 

[KojiKnight]

Lol...you could put 32Gb of RAM in a high end PC and it wont give you a single extra fps if the limiting factor is the CPU/GPU or both.

In PC gaming once you go beyond a certain amount, extra RAM becomes irrelevant.

All this talk of exotic fast RAM in the next consoles delivering miracles with mediocre CPU & GPU combos is laughable.

Not completely true... More ram = more preprocessed effects can be stored. More caching like this would greatly reduce CPU/GPU load = more effects/higher FPS

The thing is, on PCs you can't guarantee everyone will have 32GB of ram, and thus you can't program a game with that in mind... Hell, a ton of people are still on 32-bit windows which means a lot of programs are still limited to 2GB (not high address aware).


(edit) Caching doesn't just increase level loading speed, it can increase just about everything. A super easy example would be for textures. Textures are VERY bandwidth intensive, and as such most are compressed so save space, but the problem is with limited memory you're constantly swapping out new textures in and out. If you have tons of spare ram, you've effectively "increased" your bandwidth simply by virtue of not clogging it.

And that's JUST with textures, you can do the same with models/vertices/etc.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

Developers have asked for more RAM.

Only because they feared too little, if MS or Sony told them from the start that they'd be getting over 4GB, they would have been happy, as it is, i suspect MS/Sony were thinking of going with 2GB, which is too little.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

Not completely true... More ram = more preprocessed effects can be stored. More caching like this would greatly reduce CPU/GPU load = more effects/higher FPS

err..like I said, once you go beyond a certain amount, there isn't a game out there right now that will deliver a single extra fps if you have more than 6-8GB installed, only installing a better CPU or GPU will give you that.

The only reason to install more than that today is if you do rendering or intensive photoshop work

 

[KojiKnight]

err..like I said, once you go beyond a certain amount, there isn't a game out there right now that will deliver a single extra fps if you have more than 6GB installed, only installing a better CPU or GPU will give you that.

Again, that is because PC games are not designed with extra ram in mind. They don't have code designed to take advantage of it, because it's not thought to be there... as I said, most PC games are still 32-bit even so they aren't even aware of more than 2GB by default, and 4GB (including video ram) total.

Video card bandwidth is one of the BIGGEST telling signs of performance of the card. Literally going from a 128-bit bus to a 256-bit bus nearly doubles performance on most cards and is often the only difference for "the next model up" card. Increasing bandwidth either directly (faster memory/faster bus) or decreasing the use of bandwidth (such as texture compression, and storing more things in ram) can have a HUGE impact.