phosphor112
Banned
The irony.
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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
- Thread starter Globox_82
- Start date
The irony.
the law is still in draft form is it not? a slide in this pdf mentions:
http://energystar.gov/products/specs/sites/products/files/EPA_Game_Consoles_Draft_3_Webinar_0.pdf
i personally just don't see a redesign happening for either console to meet the new requirements. in my uninformed opinion, they either get excluded, or they won't be on sale
A split pool is a very realistic solution if there is a discrete GPU.
GDDR5 alone isn't viable for more than 2GB pools and 2GB just isn't enough for a next gen console.
DDR3 alone hasn't enough bandwidth for next gen games unless they go crazy with the bus width (384-512 bit) and/or they add a significant amount of really fast embedded RAM somewhere. Both things aren't likely.
Other memories like DDR4 are not ready and risky.
With a split pool they can easily have 4GB of DDR3 on a 128 bus for CPU datas, OS mutitasking, applications plus 2GB of GDDR5 connected to the GPU offering the required memory capacity and bandwidth for graphics datas.
So if they're using a discrete GPU it is possibile to find a good compromise but if they're using an APU alone things can get ugly.
I presume this unknown APU is very similar to 5800 which also has 384 shaders. So, this leads to combined power between Radeon 8830 and 8850 (at least according to number of unified shaders). This (according to wikipedia) could mean that graphics wise the system stands around 2.2 TFLOPS.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
That good, ok, or bad?
It's good, specially since we didn't add CPU part of the APU into this calculation. And since number of 2+ TFLOPS was mentioned as satisfactory power required for next gen visuals, I'd say it's very good.
For comparison, Samaritan requires 2.5 TFLOPS to run.
To run the good samaritan demo, at 1080p30fps, Tim Sweeney said that they required at least 2.5TF (most likely from GPU alone). Here it sounds like 2.2TF for whole system.
Yea, I can surely see a big hole in their claim of 1080p60fps if they really wish to push the fidelity to something that looks measurably better next gen.
Calling it now 720p30fps (but this time it won't be below 720p).
YOu're missing the TF from the CPU in your calculation.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Split pool perhaps isn't ideal, but surely 2Gb fast GDDR5 and 2-4 GB DDR3 is better than just DDR3?
By the 4th of 5th year, when the visuals truly outclass the early years of PS4, the resolution will be the sacrifice that'll be made. I'll bet you on that.
Today, on these HD consoles, for some games the resolution goes below 720p. So for next gen, it's not that unthinkable given 720p is still considered HD.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Uh yeah I just don't think that's likely.
The 2.4 number for Samaritan was also on UE3, which can't use some of the performance tricks UE4 can use and hadn't been optimized much. It was also a couple years ago and architectures have improved. 2.2 Tflops is a very good number for next gen, especially if it has good RAM and a decent CPU to back it up. That demo for Samaritan was also running 4x MSAA, switch that out for SMAA or some other post process AA and that saves a good deal of power.
Shadow of the BEAST
Banned
I think there will be more 1080p games nextgen than 720p this gen.
That's what I'm hoping for as well. Same with 60fps. Neither will be standard but I bet they'll be more common. I also expect dynamic 1080p resolutions to become a more prominent solution, like in Wipeout HD.
If Sony and Microsoft really want to make next gen shine they're hopefully talking to DICE, CryTek and Epic. Their engines will power a ton of games next gen and since two of them are already production ready and have games out, they can figure out what to nip and tuck more intelligently than previous generations. For example, Sony snipping the RSX's alpha effects processing kind of bit them in the ass with multiplats since they didn't think they would be used much this gen. If they're talking to engine designers that won't happen.
I'm optimistic for 2.5Tflops as well but 2.2 is damn close and a good deal better than the 1.8 number we were hearing initially.
Power, no matter how much, means little if the selected RAM is becomes the weak link in the chain. So, regardless of Samaritan demo and what UE4 may bring to the table to ease development, there needs to be 1) large quantity of RAM and 2) it needs to be fast.
Let's see how this situation pans out with Sony. This generation, their split pool caused a lot of migraine among developers and the consumers ended up getting shitty ports for which they paid the same money for the version that worked. In recent memory, Skyrim is the best example.
The way I see it happening is that perhaps at the earliest, we'll see 1920x1080p games running 60fps that look like up-resolutioned PS3 games. As the years progress, we'll got to dynamic resolution solution with resolutions jumping between 1280x1080p to 1920x1080p. So, technically, the 1080p mark would still be listed as "achieved". In the twilight years, say 5th or 6th year, we'll see a resolution drop for many games, especially third party stuff as they start to bring the next-next-generation visuals to then very outdated consoles. And the first party would do the same to really squeeze every ounce of performance from the console.
2.2 TF is honestly fine. It's a massive increase in raw power over the RSX, and factor in that it is in a closed box, and we will see spectacular results that will wipe the flaw with this gen's games.
Oh, I agree. I was expecting around 2.2 anyway. 2.5 is just the highest number I though was in the realm of possibility. That in a closed box with all the architecture efficiency improvements of the past few years will be a massive jump, even outside of the raw numbers.
I agree, it sounds delicious. I still think they are going to up it just a bit more. 10X PS3 is not so far off now is it.
Let's just hope they get their RAM ducks in a row, and the price at a moderate level, and it'll be a great box for hardcore gamers. The idea that it can run Samaritan at 1080p is delicious.Shadow of the BEAST
Banned
60fps wont happen until weve reached diminishing returns.
1080p as an real standard is much more feasible. This generation was rushed by ms and mishandled by sony. The tech is more mature now.
Also. the more sophisticated the graphics become, the more important image quality will be.
You cant have the type of jaggies you have had this gen on aegis philosphy or samaritan. It will stick out like a sore thumb.
SolidSnakex
Member
When did Naughty Dog get so big?
http://us.linkedin.com/company/naughty-dog
Their peak size for Uncharted 2 was supposed to be around 85. Obviously they have more devs now since they have two teams, but that lists them at being between 201-500. I wonder if this is from beefing up for the PS4?
http://us.linkedin.com/company/naughty-dog
Their peak size for Uncharted 2 was supposed to be around 85. Obviously they have more devs now since they have two teams, but that lists them at being between 201-500. I wonder if this is from beefing up for the PS4?
I agree, it sounds delicious. I still think they are going to up it just a bit more. 10X PS3 is not so far off now is it.
RAM is the only thing I am concerned about from MS and Sony. They somehow need to provide a lot of it, because they didn't put enough in this generation of consoles, and make sure that it provides enough bandwith as well. Get it right and we should prepare to have our minds blown with what developers should be able to come up with.
Well they are developing The Last of Us, and most definitely a next-gen Uncharted. That requires more than 85 people
gundamkyoukai
Member
You should get the 1080p but the 60fps don't get your hopes up for that .
Truth is when comes to fps i take 30 with more eye candy or higher res for certain games that 60fps .
Let me quote myself from a previous post to show in a generation just what is possible within a closed system:
True. IQ will be important and as such, here's us hoping for, and I have said this many times, Sony and MS to mandate the use of some form of AA and AF.
huehuehuehue
bwhahahha
hahahahaha
Good one.
I just wanted to impress upon how ND's efforts showed through the different Uncharted games. It goes to show that being creative with art and pushing the system to the limit can, in time, produce some stunning result.
Change in art style notwithstanding (from UDF to UDD) here are the screens:
The original high resolution and high poly asset:
In-engine (featuring brunette Elena design):
And what a difference 4 years makes:
In-engine:
There is no doubt that ND is under tremendous amount of both internal and external pressure to deliver on the next gen platform. I hope that for the sake of their sanity and reputation they can pull through.
True. IQ will be important and as such, here's us hoping for, and I have said this many times, Sony and MS to mandate the use of some form of AA and AF.
huehuehuehue
bwhahahha
hahahahaha
Good one.
1080p/30
I could see them being about 200 since they have two teams and have been hiring a ton lately but I think that list includes the people that did out sourcing work for them (mulitplayer character models in UC3, etc)
AF will pretty much be a given. Maybe not 16x but probably around 8x or so. Modern GPUs have over 10x the texture units of current gen consoles so AF will be really easy and that performance can't really be allocated elsewhere. On top of that, textures will be several times the size of current gen.
AA is important but MSAA has such a high processing requirement and doesn't work with deferred rendering that I don't see that being commonplace. I hope something like SMAA becomes used a lot. Decent coverage at 1080p without blurring the image and has lower processing cost than FXAA.
1080p/SMAA/8x AF would be an enormous increase in image quality and would save a lot of resources for other effects.
A lot of the improvement in that pic though is due to the improvement in the technique of the artists.
True and we also saw an improvement of scale in levels.
I think teams like ND, SSM, 343 studios etc really show what the studios are capable of producing on hardware that is now nearly 7 years old. It's a symbiotic relationship between the hardware and the devs (software). Hindsight being 20/20, if the devs at the start of the generation knew what they do now, we'd have seen games like Halo 4s or Uncharted 3s. The inconvenient truth is that passage of time is required to see what can be done on this generation's hardware. It'll be the same story next gen where what truly can achieved on PS4 or XB3 will be seen in their twilight years.
So, in the end, while there'll be a visually obvious generational shift on the next gen consoles even with somewhat of a more powerful hardware, I think pushing the hardware to as far as is realistically possible where only two boundaries dictate the last terms (power consumption and price), could show a generational leap pretty early on as well.
Of course, people should temper their expectation for the first year software given that devs have been working on outdated and incomplete dev kits that are still not finalised. It'll be interesting to see the products of developers who start off on 2013 summer when the final kits are released.
I have it on good authority developers have been working on Radeon 7970s for Orbis. I think we'll see some fine looking first generation titles
.Thats what I was thinking...Also If they are splitting up into 2 separate teams it would make sense to beef up as a whole company.
I have it on good authority developers have been working on Radeon 7970s for Orbis. I think we'll see some fine looking first generation titles
No.
OdysseusVA
Banned
But he has it on good authority!
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
gundamkyoukai
Member
They could be , not to say that card is going to be in PS4 but just for dev kits as a place holder until the final kits come .
Which could end up with lower specs but that happens .
So what might you know about the GPU that you have on your good authority?
In time, optimization will only get you so far. You may have to sacrifice something. People know that 720p is still HD and so I see the resolution as the first thing to drop.
Kung Fu Grip
Banned
I would never want 60fps standard for nextgen. Every game doesn't fit that look. I see it the same as movies. Directors shoot in 35mm or digital for a certain look and feel. Nolan's batman films wouldn't be the same movie if he shot it digitally. At least for me.
Games like Uncharted, MGS, Batman AA and AC etc, fit the 30fps look.
Games like Uncharted, MGS, Batman AA and AC etc, fit the 30fps look.
That's exactly what happens in God of War 3
jeff_rigby
Banned
From BY3D because a post of mine was cited:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/di...o_Support_AVX_BMI_Other_New_Instructions.html
The XMB was at the time I was speculating it would eventually be a HTML5 Desktop was already a partially implemented XHTML desktop (HTML4.01 & XML). This is the amusing part Shifty....you still don't get it. The endgame for the PS3 was always to support XTV as envisioned by committees advising the ATSC standards board, this since early 2001. The XTV ATSC 2.0 standards take the software stack for a blu-ray player (JAVA & h.264 codec) and add XML supported HTML. This is a subset of HTML5 meant to support very thin client (weak platforms). This is in the process of being revised to support by a full webkit.
The problem Shifty is Sony is not in any hurry because the ATSC 2.0 committee will not be ratifying standards till 1st quarter 2013 and GTKwebkit2 is slowly, ever so slowly being developed and as it is the PS3 firmware and browser is updated. I suspect that by March when ATSC 2.0 reaches candidate status, Webkit2 will be able to fully support it.
3dilettante said:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/di...o_Support_AVX_BMI_Other_New_Instructions.html
Reread the threads Shifty, you have a selective memory. It's also not just about the speculation but the uncovering of information in the cites.Shifty Geezer said:
The XMB was at the time I was speculating it would eventually be a HTML5 Desktop was already a partially implemented XHTML desktop (HTML4.01 & XML). This is the amusing part Shifty....you still don't get it. The endgame for the PS3 was always to support XTV as envisioned by committees advising the ATSC standards board, this since early 2001. The XTV ATSC 2.0 standards take the software stack for a blu-ray player (JAVA & h.264 codec) and add XML supported HTML. This is a subset of HTML5 meant to support very thin client (weak platforms). This is in the process of being revised to support by a full webkit.
The problem Shifty is Sony is not in any hurry because the ATSC 2.0 committee will not be ratifying standards till 1st quarter 2013 and GTKwebkit2 is slowly, ever so slowly being developed and as it is the PS3 firmware and browser is updated. I suspect that by March when ATSC 2.0 reaches candidate status, Webkit2 will be able to fully support it.
I have it on good authority developers have been working on Radeon 7970s for Orbis. I think we'll see some fine looking first generation titles
You know that you could get banned if it turns out to be completely wrong?
Graphics Horse
Member
Jeff are you sure this is an appropriate platform for responding to Beyond3D forums?
systemfehler
Member
Well that could only turn out wrong if the PS4 uses some completly inferior GPU solution - everything better and he was "right". If there is more to hear about not just a quote on a certain GPU lets hear it but yes you (thuway) might face consequences ;-)
It's an old rumor about devkits. He's not referring to the final console.
jeff_rigby
Banned
No, and I thought about it but there is no other way to respond. Is this violating a rule here?
I'm comfortable that I'm mostly correct in my speculations and feel good at all I have uncovered and posted here so I'll end with that.
Whats with your obsession with 720p? Everything points toward 1080p being standard.
If you look at the specs of PS3, its perfectly logical that it aint 1080p (128 bus/small bandwith)
But with PS4 it should be on another level, plus now 1080p tv sets is almost standard (or will be going forward)
You own a HD-ready (720p) tv or something?
No I use beer goggles to zoom in on my neighbours 26" SDTV because I'm that poor.
In all seriousness, both 720p and 1080p resolutions are designated as HD. We know:
- From this generation there have been games that have had to go below HD resolution to keep its framerate from chugging while trying to keep all the visual effects active.
- A console is a closed box system. The developers not only have to deliver eye candy at the beginning of the generation but keep on continually improving upon it, as evidenced by almost all major HD sequels this gen. Something's gotta give in the end. Going below 30fps isn't a voluntary option but reduction of resolution where it still considered to be HD is.
- Lastly, and this has to do with making reference to desktop gfx card reviews. People speculate that the final GPU in PS4 would be somewhere between a 7770 and 7850 or it's Sea Island equivalent in processing power. In every review, there is a noticeable drop in framerate going from 800p with 4xAA (16x10 monitor) to 1200p w/o any AA. This drop can be as severe as 50%. After point in time when optimization options with dynamic resolution for 1080p may not work wonders, a drop to 720p should provide the some leeway. Whether that's an acceptable trade off should be each developer's prerogative.
Graphics Horse
Member
No I shouldn't think so, but if you post where you're quoting from it would be helpful, as it looked like it was a neogaf post without any other explanation.