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[specialguy]

I don't think anyone responsible for the new Xbox is "confident". They already made a big mistake by using DDR3, and they know it. It is inferior to the new 4Gb GDDR5 modules while not being much cheaper and sacrificing a considerable amount of space on the APU die for their eSRAM. With such a power difference between those two consoles, they will have a hard time winning core gamers, and the casual market is extremely risky/volatile. I doubt anyone is sleeping well at Microsoft right now.

The suits there probably just dont care that it's weaker.

What the hell do you think Nintendo suits thought with Wii U? They literally do not care that other consoles are much more powerful.

Microsoft think Kinect and Live and software ad whatever will sell it. And they may be right. How many times have we heard "the most powerful console never wins!"

Think PS2 vs Xbox. I'd say based on what we know, the Xbox was a much bigger leap over the PS2, than the PS4 will be over Durango...but PS2 still dominated.

Edit: But DDR3 is MUCH cheaper, where the hell are you getting that it isn't?

I'm sure it's been posted but I have a chart of GPU board costs, DDR3 is like $4 per gigabyte, GDDR5 is $15+ per GB.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Or how about why would a "PowerPC embedded processor platform lead" be hired to work on a X86 AMD chip?

I mean the "products", more than a product?

 

[oldergamer]

I mean the "products", more than a product?

Yeah I know where you were going. The rumors of more then one xbox system made the circles. It would be pretty funny if this actually was the xbox 361 system we kept hearing about.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Yeah I know where you were going. The rumors of more then one xbox system made the circles. It would be pretty funny if this actually was the xbox 361 system we kept hearing about.

Or the rumored Xbox Surface, or something else not gaming related...

 

[PSGames]

The suits there probably just dont care that it's weaker.

What the hell do you think Nintendo suits thought with Wii U? They literally do not care that other consoles are much more powerful.

Microsoft think Kinect and Live and software ad whatever will sell it. And they may be right. How many times have we heard "the most powerful console never wins!"

Think PS2 vs Xbox. I'd say based on what we know, the Xbox was a much bigger leap over the PS2, than the PS4 will be over Durango...but PS2 still dominated.

Edit: But DDR3 is MUCH cheaper, where the hell are you getting that it isn't?

I'm sure it's been posted but I have a chart of GPU board costs, DDR3 is like $4 per gigabyte, GDDR5 is $15+ per GB.

Why oh why do people keep bringing this up and excluding all the factors??? The ps2 released a year and a half before the Xbox and was the successor to the most successful console of all time and had full hardware backwards compatibility. By the time the Xbox released the ps2 had already won the consumers and developers.

And if you don't think power matters just look at what the mere implication that the ps2 was more powerful did to the Dreamcast. The ps2's supposed superiority stopped it dead in its tracks.

The 720 and ps4 will be releasing at the same time. This won't be the ps2 vs Xbox at all. Whoever gets the hype (which typically is driven by the hardcore initially) will get the mindshare and be suggested to the more casual gamers later as the price drops.

 

[specialguy]

But it's not just a 50% faster GPU.

what about

• faster Ram with more available for games
  
• more CPU cores available for games?
  
• coding to the metal.

if that's the way things are when the final hardware is released PS4 should have a big advantage & it should be noticeable a lot more noticeable than PS3 vs Xbox 360.

faster Ram with more available for games

They both have 8GB. There's nothing saying MS cant reduce OS usage in the future. The bottom line is they both have 8GB to play with. As for RAM, MS built a lot of stuff (DME engines, ESRAM) to overcome the slowness.

more CPU cores available for games?

They have the same CPU. Again, what they do with them is up in the air.

coding to the metal.

I dont think this is a real thing. Heck I think I just tracked down a lherre post where he sid "Sony has version of Direct X for PS4 development, they just dont call it that" or something.

I dont think in todays day and age theres any coding to the metal really. MS could have a thick API for Durango, but I really really doubt it.

 

[Respawn]

I disagree, the mainstream press isn't bought by the hype that people are selling to try and overstate the accomplishment of shadowfall. It's not much of an improvement.

Uhmm digital foundry begs to differ. The denial is amazing from some of you.

 

[specialguy]

Why oh why do people keep bringing this up and excluding all the factors??? The ps2 released a year and a half before the Xbox and was the successor to the most successful console of all time and had full hardware backwards compatibility. By the time the Xbox released the ps2 had already won the consumers and developers.

And if you don't think power matters just look at what the mere implication that the ps2 was more powerful did to the Dreamcast. The ps2's supposed superiority stopped it dead in its tracks.

And you're the one ignoring other factors in the second example, PS2 beat Dreamcast cause of Sony's might and third party support.

PS2 only released 1 year prior to Xbox in the USA. Regardless, XBox had 4 years to win and did not.

I think what the PS2 example sort of "proves" is that a console doesn't have to be the most powerful, it just has to be powerful. Durango might fit that bill, whereas say Wii U, clearly does not.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

Think PS2 vs Xbox. I'd say based on what we know, the Xbox was a much bigger leap over the PS2, than the PS4 will be over Durango...but PS2 still dominated.

eh..if the OS footprint rumors regarding Durango are true, I think it could be quite close to PS2vsXbox level of disparity. On paper, its easily a GCvsXbox situation. What will likely happen, is it will fall somewhere in between.

I'm sure it's been posted but I have a chart of GPU board costs, DDR3 is like $4 per gigabyte, GDDR5 is $15+ per GB.

Those numbers are irrelevant. You don't know what kind of deal Sony is getting. I'm sure their getting the best deal possible, but yes I'm sure it's more expensive than DDR3, just not by that much.

They have the same CPU. Again, what they do with them is up in the air.

Nope. Once it's reserved its gone forever. Just like how Sony cant give a SPU back to devs now. The RAM OS footprint could be reduced with time, but its clear that MS wants to do a lot more stuff with the OS than Sony does, so it will probably always require more. Whether thats 512vs 3gb, reduce downed to 512vs2gb or even 1.5gb's(that's still a big difference), we dont know. I no way will they be able to reserve 3gb at the start and bring that down under 1gb...

The other thing is, with Durango's bandwidth situation, 5+GB's of RAM actually works out quite nicely. There no point in having more RAM if you can't access it fast enough. MS obvious knew all about this when designing the system, and its right in line with there vision and what they want to do.

 

[antic604]

Uhmm digital foundry begs to differ. The denial is amazing from some of you.

DF is not 'mainstream press'...

 

[Manmademan]

Why oh why do people keep bringing this up and excluding all the factors??? The ps2 released a year and a half before the Xbox and was the successor to the most successful console of all time and had full hardware backwards compatibility. By the time the Xbox released the ps2 had already won the consumers and developers.

And if you don't think power matters just look at what the mere implication that the ps2 was more powerful did to the Dreamcast. The ps2's supposed superiority stopped it dead in its tracks.

it matters, but power alone didn't kill the DC. the DC's best games compared very favorably with the ps2 launch titles (just not with say...that mgs2 trailer.)

sega coming off of a massive failure with the saturn, making bad decisions re: marketing, and having no EA support (this one is critical) had just as much to do with dooming it as the power gap.

Microsoft will be fine. The 360 was very successful for them, and they've built a lot of good will with live and their first party titles.

it's totally possible for them to screw things up by making the wrong decision re: used games and always on connections though. Sony managed to turn things around after the 599 disaster, I don't think microsoft is sitting THAT secure.

 

[Respawn]

DF is not 'mainstream press'...

Like I said denial.

 

[Winterfang]

And if you don't think power matters just look at what the mere implication that the ps2 was more powerful did to the Dreamcast. The ps2's supposued superiority stopped it dead in its tracks.

That and the fact that it could play DVD's.

 

[watership]

Like I said denial.

I'm lost. Who's in denial? Really, this thread and others like it mutate with info faster than I can possibly keep up.

 

[antic604]

Like I said denial.

I wasn't commenting on whether KZ:SF is an improvement or not, but on the assertion of DF being 'mainstream'. Please point me to any other reliable site that does what they do - it's a niche thing, for real core gamers (and fanboys )

 

[PSGames]

And you're the one ignoring other factors in the second example, PS2 beat Dreamcast cause of Sony's might and third party support.

PS2 only released 1 year prior to Xbox in the USA. Regardless, XBox had 4 years to win and did not.

I think what the PS2 example sort of "proves" is that a console doesn't have to be the most powerful, it just has to be powerful. Durango might fit that bill, whereas say Wii U, clearly does not.

True power isn't the only reason but with both releasing at the same time power is going to play a much larger role in determine which hardcore gamers choose. Superior versions of games at a similar price point will be crucial in garnering early adopters who will then be the ones recommending a system to casuals later on. It's a long term play that could really pay off for Sony. I'm a huge Xbox fan and even I am leaning towards PlayStation this time. Maybe the Kinect 2 will be so amazing as to change that but I have my doubts.

 

[Arrogant Menace]

It's going to be funny when you guys are trying to convince your friends not to get a 720

Neogaf poster: but it has 2xs more rops!

Friend: rops wtf is that, they look the same on screen and its cheaper.


LOL

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

And if you don't think power matters just look at what the mere implication that the ps2 was more powerful did to the Dreamcast. The ps2's supposed superiority stopped it dead in its tracks.

I agree. Within the context of the situation its easy to see why a power difference helped PS2 over dreamcast but didn't help Xbox. Sony did a great job of hyping up PS2 to be "all powerful" around the time dreamcast released. So people were waiting for the PS2. Dreamcast was pretty much dead before PS2 even came out.

PS2 was already supplanted when Xbox released, or dug in, with a sizable install base and bunch of AAA games releasing. There was all this hype of MGS2 and game like GTA3, and it already built up a sizable install base. It would of been a much different story IMO if Xbox released first. Xbox just had bad timing. AND HEY! Look what they did! They learned from this mistake and launched a year earlier with 360, and it led to the best decision they ever made.

So PS2 won the early game through hardware power, and won the later game through software superiority. Everything just worked out perfectly for them, all the stars aligned. lol

I think sega quitting on so many systems in a row had a lot to do with the dreamcast failure as well

32x,CD,Saturn smh sega was on a row with mininum support for their consoles.

Yea they were never in for the long haul. Never committed. I guess they just didn't have the $$$ like Sony, MS, or even Nintendo did(Nintendio always had there handheld division to bail them out, they still out profited Sony in the PS2 gen, by A LOT. This is why Sony decided to focus on FP in PS3's gen). I'm pretty sure Sega did really well with the Genesis, but I guess they lost all those profits with the Saturn?

 

[Arrogant Menace]

I agree. Within the context of the situation its easy to see why a power difference helped PS2 over dreamcast but didn't help Xbox. Sony did a great job of hyping up PS2 to be "all powerful" around the time dreamcast released. So people were waiting for the PS2. Dreamcast was pretty much dead before PS2 even came out.

PS2 was already supplanted when Xbox released, or dug in, with a sizable install base and bunch of AAA games releasing. There was all this hype of MGS2 and game like GTA3, and it already built up a sizable install base. It would of been a much different story IMO if Xbox released first. Xbox just had bad timing.

So PS2 won the early game through hardware power, and won the later game through software superiority. Everything just worked out perfectly for them, all the stars aligned. lol

I think sega quitting on so many systems in a row had a lot to do with the dreamcast failure as well

32x,CD,Saturn smh sega was on a row with mininum support for their consoles.

 

[spwolf]

The suits there probably just dont care that it's weaker.

What the hell do you think Nintendo suits thought with Wii U? They literally do not care that other consoles are much more powerful.

Microsoft think Kinect and Live and software ad whatever will sell it. And they may be right. How many times have we heard "the most powerful console never wins!"

Think PS2 vs Xbox. I'd say based on what we know, the Xbox was a much bigger leap over the PS2, than the PS4 will be over Durango...but PS2 still dominated.

Edit: But DDR3 is MUCH cheaper, where the hell are you getting that it isn't?

I'm sure it's been posted but I have a chart of GPU board costs, DDR3 is like $4 per gigabyte, GDDR5 is $15+ per GB.

dat suits

.

 

[Manmademan]

I think sega quitting on so many systems in a row had a lot to do with the dreamcast failure as well

32x,CD,Saturn smh sega was on a row with mininum support for their consoles.

this also. sega burned a LOT of goodwill with the 32x business.

 

[Raoh]

Why oh why do people keep bringing this up and excluding all the factors??? The ps2 released a year and a half before the Xbox and was the successor to the most successful console of all time and had full hardware backwards compatibility. By the time the Xbox released the ps2 had already won the consumers and developers.

And if you don't think power matters just look at what the mere implication that the ps2 was more powerful did to the Dreamcast. The ps2's supposed superiority stopped it dead in its tracks.

The 720 and ps4 will be releasing at the same time. This won't be the ps2 vs Xbox at all. Whoever gets the hype (which typically is driven by the hardcore initially) will get the mindshare and be suggested to the more casual gamers later as the price drops.

In regards to last gen.


I'd say the xbox was gaining momentum. Lots of people I know were starting to pick one up especially after they heard about XBMC.

A friend loaned me his because he was going to travel for six months, I was actually looking forward to it until the power cord issues were reported but either way.

Most of PS2' success I'd say had to do with their competition dropping out.

Xbox didn't just introduce their next console. They shut down their xbox and rebooted, they are technically treating their xbox 360 as if it where their first console entry.

Looking back, forbes and others were negative on sony's financial and gaming outlook. lots of gaming sites were down on ps2 price. And developers said the ps2 was hard to develop for. (all sound familiar?)

After the competition dropped out, devs did the only thing they could do. Make ps2 games. Its not like they had a choice with sega and microsoft bowing out.

Sega shocked everyone by dropping out, they exited just after having their best quarter to date, their momentum was also increasing. (thanks peter moore)

Would ps2 have still dominated? Probably, but maybe not as much if the competition didn't have their own issues.

The ps2 was more powerful than the dreamcast but dreamcast had a lot of great games.

Sega's Dreamcast problem was financial.
Microsoft's Xbox problem was financial.


I actually don't think the next (current) gen would have started as early as it did had it not been for MS needing a do over. They PS2 lasted a hell of a long time and since the xbox was more powerful it too could have held out winning over a few playstation and sega gamers.

I can't really comment on nintendo, wasn't really following them much.

 

[artist]

I disagree, the mainstream press isn't bought by the hype that people are selling to try and overstate the accomplishment of shadowfall. It's not much of an improvement.

Oh you!

Uhmm digital foundry begs to differ. The denial is amazing from some of you.

Gotta downplay any of every advantage. 8GB is overkill, 32ROPs are overkill, 18CUs .. etc etc

It's going to be funny when you guys are trying to convince your friends not to get a 720

Neogaf poster: but it has 2xs more rops!

Friend: rops wtf is that, they look the same on screen and its cheaper.


LOL

Yeah, thats why the Wii did so well.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

In regards to last gen.
Sega's Dreamcast problem was financial.
Microsoft's Xbox problem was financial.

I'd have to disagree. MS wasn't lacking any money, it was a lack of software problem. PS2 had a lot of 3rd party exclusives, and all the momentum that was GTA.

 

[Uno Venova]

Gotta downplay any of every advantage. 8GB is overkill, 32ROPs are overkill, 18CUs .. etc etc

After analyzing every framerate drop and texture between multiplats this gen, this new outlook has been taking me by surprise as of late.

 

[KidBeta]

It's going to be funny when you guys are trying to convince your friends not to get a 720

Neogaf poster: but it has 2xs more rops!

Friend: rops wtf is that, they look the same on screen and its cheaper.


LOL

Why are you assuming that every multplatform game will look the same on screen?.

 

[magicaltrevor]

While a clear difference in quality/performance of games between the two systems is certainly something that might influence someone's decision on what to buy, I think it is and will be mostly about what system provides the best experience/software/services. The price still being the primary factor though.

On the software side of things, Microsoft certainly know what they're doing... but Sony are quite ambitious to do much better and more in that area this time around as well...

It's safe to say that it's going to be very, very interesting

 

[Arrogant Menace]

Why are you assuming that every multplatform game will look the same on screen?.

there will be minimal difference to the average consumer . Sony needs to come out the gate with tech that shows the difference with their 1st party to justify the pricing difference if there is one. I actually think this generation will be bigger then hardware, hopefully sony understand this as well.

 

[Raoh]

I'd have to disagree. MS wasn't lacking any money, it was a lack of software problem. PS2 had a lot of 3rd party exclusives, and all the momentum that was GTA.

I don't mean lacking money, I mean the xbox was bleeding money. The inclusion of a hard drive was a financial strain on them.

Shutting down the xbox stopped the bleeding. The xbox 360 started the healing.

 

[beast786]

After analyzing every framerate drop and texture between multiplats this gen, this new outlook has been taking me by surprise as of late.

It seems opposite for next gen. Wii U launches and Nintendo fans start loving HD graphics and x.gifs while Xbox fans start talking about who cares about graphics in mainstream. ;p

 

[onQ123]

They both have 8GB. There's nothing saying MS cant reduce OS usage in the future. The bottom line is they both have 8GB to play with. As for RAM, MS built a lot of stuff (DME engines, ESRAM) to overcome the slowness.



They have the same CPU. Again, what they do with them is up in the air.



I dont think this is a real thing. Heck I think I just tracked down a lherre post where he sid "Sony has version of Direct X for PS4 development, they just dont call it that" or something.

I dont think in todays day and age theres any coding to the metal really. MS could have a thick API for Durango, but I really really doubt it.

"Eurogamer: So it will be possible to develop for PS4 even if you don't have a developer kit as well?

Shuhei Yoshida: Aaah, so we have to see... It depends on how we define the layer. The way we are approaching PS4 now is allowing developers to go really deep onto the metal, so Richard [Leadbetter of Digital Foundry] will know how that availability to the deeper hardware makes the console games way better than some PC or mobile approach. But if we do that, it will definitely require hardware to develop games."

 

[spwolf]

"Eurogamer: So it will be possible to develop for PS4 even if you don't have a developer kit as well?

Shuhei Yoshida: Aaah, so we have to see... It depends on how we define the layer. The way we are approaching PS4 now is allowing developers to go really deep onto the metal, so Richard [Leadbetter of Digital Foundry] will know how that availability to the deeper hardware makes the console games way better than some PC or mobile approach. But if we do that, it will definitely require hardware to develop games."

Yoshida owns... he always says something interesting and real... unlike PR Jack.

 

[coldfoot]

I'm sure it's been posted but I have a chart of GPU board costs, DDR3 is like $4 per gigabyte, GDDR5 is $15+ per GB.

That is based on 1Gb or 2Gb chips. PS4 will use 4Gb chips (which cost the same or less) so you'll have to slash that per GB price on GDDR5 by half.

I dont think in todays day and age theres any coding to the metal really.

You are completely wrong here. Watch DICE presentations on BF3 and how they did some GPU stuff on the SPU's and had to account for odd/even pipes, etc. Coding to the metal is still done today.

 

[KidBeta]

there will be minimal difference to the average consumer . Sony needs to come out the gate with tech that shows the difference with their 1st party to justify the pricing difference if there is one. I actually think this generation will be bigger then hardware, hopefully sony understand this as well.

Just like this gen?.

 

[dancmc]

What's reliable? Who can I trust? I need to know!! I can't stand it anymore! I am going Ouya for next gen!!

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Uhmm digital foundry begs to differ. The denial is amazing from some of you.

I'm not in denial, it's just more of what we already have, congrats core gamers, we have more of the exact same crap that's been built this generation. linear, heavily sequenced, heavily scripted corridor shooters, that's what's supposed to impress us? at 30fps and 1080p? Cmon, people can be impressed all they want by it, I'm not sold. I'll be saying the exact same thing about the next halo, because guess what, 343 has started ruining the franchise by adding the same garbage post processing, and cinematic design philosphy to my favorite franchise.

My favorite part of the killzone demo was when he was blindly shooting at the people running away because he couldn't tell where/who enemies were or are, that's so fun, not being able see the game you're playing is totally the best design, good thing we have graphics to keep us company as we hit the x button during those qte's, and a nice looking skybox, so you can see all that world you're never going to get to explore.

 

[Gorillaz]

Yea that sums up the past 4 months on here lol

 

[Wynnebeck]

This is a standard Jaguar, and the PS4 one is rumoured to be suped up (only by 10% though, from 1.8Ghz to 2.0Ghz).

The PS4 is in every aspect a more powerful console than the Django the ways the rumours stand right now.

Ha!

 

[Karak]

God damn I am confused. What Digital Foundry bit are we talking about? I felt the PS4 Killzone bit was unfairly negative and hammered on a ton of stuff. Are people thinking it was unfairly positive? They hammered on alot of shit on that page. Who is saying what here?!?! LOL.
EDIT: I guess rereading it...it seems somewhat fair but I don't think its overly positive or negative at all. Though I still wonder at some of the bits where they thrash on a couple things that seem a bit nit picky. Though I guess that is their thing now that I think about it.
This site will have like 12 total members if people are this heated this far from release of anything.

 

[phosphor112]

It's going to be funny when you guys are trying to convince your friends not to get a 720

Neogaf poster: but it has 2xs more rops!

Friend: rops wtf is that, they look the same on screen and its cheaper.


LOL

"PS4 is more powerful, and it plays used games."
Derp.

 

[Arrogant Menace]

"PS4 is more powerful, and it plays used games."
Derp.

both will play used games, ps3 was "more powerful" as well.

 

[Uno Venova]

both will play used games, ps3 was "more powerful" as well.

Not according to dem leaks.

 

[Glorified G]

both will play used games, ps3 was "more powerful" as well.

both will play used games, unless you choose to ignore leaks from certain publications that so far have been correct (*cough* EDGE *cough*)

And it's still debated today about the power of the HD twins, and majority of the games look slightly better on 360.

 

[Respawn]

I wasn't commenting on whether KZ:SF is an improvement or not, but on the assertion of DF being 'mainstream'. Please point me to any other reliable site that does what they do - it's a niche thing, for real core gamers (and fanboys )

So your saying DF is for as you say 'real core gamers' and fanboi's?
So my magazine subscription of Sound&Vision would be the same?

Seriously, the things some people say. A site running an analyzer to benchmark games on consoles is now for for a selected few with a title? Maybe I would like to know how my hardware handles said software that I paid for? Stop generalizing and putting everyone under the same parasol.
Not sure why you think the gaming press cannot see the same graphics we all saw and know its a step ahead. Same people who still tout there's no difference between 1080p and 720p. If you cant tell the difference on said graphics then change professions. Pfft gaming press my ass.

 

[shinra-bansho]

How reliable is BGAssasin? He posted that the CPU for Durango was better than regular Jaguar

NB This isn't just in reference to bgassassin.

The problem with the "insiders" that we've had leaks from is that they've either:
a) been subject to confirmation bias due to system preference
b) not actually had the technical knowledge to interpret the information and/or distill it to the forum in an understandable manner
c) both of the above

Consequently, Microsoft's documentation has been able to fandangle them with Data Move Engines, Display Planes and double-pumped CPUs. And other renaming of stock standard AMD wares.

I say this myself as a lay person, and I'm sure I'd make the same mistake and be bedazzled by the fancy terminology too.

 

[sangreal]

How reliable is BGAssasin? He posted that the CPU for Durango was better than regular Jaguar

Well it is. There are two of them

 

[phosphor112]

both will play used games, ps3 was "more powerful" as well.

The downplaying of PS4's power over Durango's is silly. The difference is much larger than it was this gens.

 

[beast786]

The downplaying of PS4's power over Durango's is silly. The difference is much larger than it was this gens.

Next way of downplaying " hey, it was always about gameplay "

 

[Arrogant Menace]

The downplaying of PS4's power over Durango's is silly. The difference is much larger than it was this gens.

I dont think anyones downplaying anything, you seem to be looking for a argument i will end this discussion now

 

[makingmusic476]

Oh you!

Gotta downplay any of every advantage. 8GB is overkill, 32ROPs are overkill, 18CUs .. etc etc


Yeah, thats why the Wii did so well.

And that's why a year late ps3 that still costs more than the 360 could totally never ever catch up in total sales.

Price isn't the only thing that matters. Price, launch timing, software, services, and yes, even rendering capabilities (though I guess this would fall under "software", as that's what it effects) all play a role.