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[keuja]

both will play used games, ps3 was "more powerful" as well.

it's not the same situation at all.
The PS4 and xbox 720 use the same architecture and are directly comparable. Assuming the 720 leaks are true, the PS4 is more powerful than the 720, that's just a fact.

 

[CLEEK]

Well it is. There are two of them

Yeah. One real, one make believe.

 

[Manmademan]

And that's why a year late ps3 that still costs more than the 360 could totally never ever catch up in total sales.

Price isn't the only thing that matters. Price, launch timing, software, services, and yes, even rendering capabilities (though I guess this would fall under"software", as that's what it effects) all play a role.

is this sarcasm? the ps3 passed the 360 a little while back.

edit: yeah it is. I'm more tired than I thought.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

After analyzing every framerate drop and texture between multiplats this gen, this new outlook has been taking me by surprise as of late.

these are just rumors, we still have to wait until fall to see for ourselves how these consoles shape up. but it's actually pretty funny seeing how some people are saying stuff like "bah, who cares about graphics?" already. an entire generation of nitpicking and countless threads of DF (and i've never been interested in these comparisons) and somehow, it doesn't matter anymore.
first wiiU owners, and now microsoft fans are going through it too? just relax, nothing's confirmed yet.

 

[Ramblin]

it's not the same situation at all.
The PS4 and xbox 720 use the same architecture and are directly comparable. Assuming the 720 leaks are true, the PS4 is more powerful than the 720, that's just a fact.

Good stuff.

 

[sangreal]

Yeah. One real, one make believe.

um, no. there are two. 4 cores each

 

[Tears For Fears]

The one thing I understand from threads like these is that people have no idea what they are talking about, and let console bias blind them. I'm pretty sure both MS and Sony know what they are doing in their R&D departments. What we have here is a lot of Dick wagging from armchair engineers.

 

[Arrogant Menace]

Next way of downplaying " hey, it was always about gameplay "

I know this is sarcasm but gameplay has always been the top priority, Gameplay is the reason why games like Halo is such a successful series not graphics

 

[StalkerUKCG]

it's not the same situation at all.
The PS4 and xbox 720 use the same architecture and are directly comparable. Assuming the 720 leaks are true, the PS4 is more powerful than the 720, that's just a fact.

While i don't disagree I can see multiplat developers targeting titles for the 720 and porting that over to the PS4 so multiplat games will no really benefit from the PS4 being more powerful outside of maybe some better texture work and better loading times.

1st party Sony titles will be godlike with Based Santa Monica, Guerrilla Games and Naughty God pushing the tech as far as it can go.

Companies like 343i however have shown that with visually trickery, scaled playable areas and great optimization that even aging hardware can produce fantastic results so while I don't see the 720 being able to compete directly with 1st party PS4 titles I think it could come close.

 

[Omnistalgic]

The one thing I understand from threads like these is that people have no idea what they are talking about, and let console bias blind them. I'm pretty sure both MS and Sony know what they are doing in their R&D departments. What we have here is a lot of Dick wagging from armchair engineers.

QFT

Regardless of 720 larger focus on Kinect or establishing windows's ecosystem, it's extremely likely these two platforms will be very comparable spec wise. It's just logical..

 

[Callibretto]

While i don't disagree I can see multiplat developers targeting titles for the 720 and porting that over to the PS4 so multiplat games will no really benefit from the PS4 being more powerful outside of maybe some better texture work and better loading times.

1st party Sony titles will be godlike with Based Santa Monica, Guerrilla Games and Naughty God pushing the tech as far as it can go.

Companies like 343i however have shown that with visually trickery, scaled playable areas and great optimization that even aging hardware can produce fantastic results so while I don't see the 720 being able to compete directly with 1st party PS4 titles I think it could come close.

Maybe better framerate too, which is much more important

 

[keuja]

Good stuff.

Yeah, conditional sentences, how do they work.

 

[CLEEK]

um, no. there are two. 4 cores each

There is one CPU, dude. Read the OP. You're confusing modules (confusingly, also known as CUs, like the CUs in the AMD GPUs) with CPUs. The Jaguar CPU range come in various sizes, with 1-4 modules, each module containing 4-cores.

The Durango (based on the rumours) is a pretty stock 8-core CPU. The PS4 is a slightly tweaked 8-core, running either at the same 1.6GHz as the Xbox, or if the latest rumours are true, running at 2GHz.

 

[sangreal]

The one thing I understand from threads like these is that people have no idea what they are talking about, and let console bias blind them. I'm pretty sure both MS and Sony know what they are doing in their R&D departments. What we have here is a lot of Dick wagging from armchair engineers.

I don't think anyone doubts they know what they're doing, but whether or not they have the same goals. Nintendo engineers know what they're doing too

 

[Reiko]

I don't think anyone doubts they know what they're doing, but whether or not they have the same goals. Nintendo engineers know what they're doing too

I really don't think they [Nintendo] made a wise choice with the design. Was it a cheap design? Yes.

But that was offset by the expensive controller.

 

[Arrogant Menace]

I really don't think they [Nintendo] made a wise choice with the design. Was it a cheap design? Yes.

But that was offset by the expensive controller.

worse design choice ever, basically handicapped nintendo into making the system their own AGAIN . 3rd partys dont even understand how to use the tablet.

 

[sangreal]

There is one CPU, dude. Read the OP. You're confusing modules (confusingly, also known as CUs, like the CUs in the AMD GPUs) with CPUs. The Jaguar CPU range come in various sizes, with 1-4 modules, each module containing 4-cores.

The Durango (based on the rumours) is a pretty stock 8-core CPU. The PS4 is a slightly tweaked 8-core, running either at the same 1.6GHz as the Xbox, or if the latest rumours are true, running at 2GHz.

I'm not confusing anything, I understand the modular nature. There are two jaguar modules, making it more than a vanilla jaguar (2-4 cores). It was a fucking joke, relax. I didn't say anything about the PS4

 

[CLEEK]

I really don't think they [Nintendo] made a wise choice with the design. Was it a cheap design? Yes.

But that was offset by the expensive controller.

Replace 'Nintendo' with 'Microsoft', and 'expensive controller' with 'Kinect 2.0', and your statement coule ring true for the next Xbox design too.

 

[Reiko]

Replace 'Nintendo' with 'Microsoft', and 'expensive controller' with 'Kinect 2.0', and your statement coule ring true for the next Xbox design too.

Maybe. Microsoft, unlike Nintendo still has to push a powerful console to run the next generation engines.

 

[CLEEK]

I'm not confusing anything, I understand the modular nature. There are two jaguar modules, making it more than a vanilla jaguar (2-4 cores). It was a fucking joke, relax. I didn't say anything about the PS4

Joke, huh? OK.

Here's a funny one for you. The Durango has 12 GPUs in it! You know, because its single GPU has 12 CUs in. Hahahahaha!

 

[beast786]

Maybe. Microsoft, unlike Nintendo still has to push a powerful console to run the next generation engines.

And Potentioally best of both.

 

[Arrogant Menace]

Maybe. Microsoft, unlike Nintendo still has to push a powerful console to run the next generation engines.

yup, and i believe UE4 only needs 1Tf to run...MS edged that threshold and will have the ram requirements as well. Im sure Kinect 2 isn't much more expensive then PSeye anyway, seriously doubt extensive R&D went into the software again they already had the blueprint.

 

[Jburton]

yup, and i believe UE4 only needs 1Tf to run...MS edged that threshold and will have the ram requirements as well. Im sure Kinect 2 isn't much more expensive then PSeye anyway, seriously doubt extensive R&D went into the software again they already had the blueprint.

I would say Kinect 2 will be more expensive than PSeye (maybe not exceedingly so but Kinect was expensive).

 

[Razgreez]

yup, and i believe UE4 only needs 1Tf to run...MS edged that threshold and will have the ram requirements as well. Im sure Kinect 2 isn't much more expensive then PSeye anyway, seriously doubt extensive R&D went into the software again they already had the blueprint.

Less agile and powerful yet still more capable. Suppose if any company has the funds to achieve it it's ms. Look at how they've turned around the WP8 business by virtually "buying out" nokia after all

 

[sangreal]

yup, and i believe UE4 only needs 1Tf to run...MS edged that threshold and will have the ram requirements as well. Im sure Kinect 2 isn't much more expensive then PSeye anyway, seriously doubt extensive R&D went into the software again they already had the blueprint.

I'd be willing to bet that this number was arrived at the other way around

 

[Jburton]

Less agile and powerful yet still more capable. Suppose if any company has the funds to achieve it it's ms. Look at how they've turned around the WP8 business by virtually "buying out" nokia after all

Not sure what you mean by more capable.


Nokia WP8 phones are nice.

 

[JaggedSac]

I would say Kinect 2 will be more expensive than PSeye (maybe not exceedingly so but Kinect was expensive).

The estimated BoM for Kinect 2 or 3 years ago was $50. Kinect 2 specs don't point to anything more expensive, and they removed the motor so it will most likely be less. So given that the cost of those materials has decreased over the years, I would guess it is much lower than $50.

 

[Razgreez]

Not sure what you mean by more capable.


Nokia WP8 phones are nice.

Capable as in having access to more, if not better, features and services from the offset. Leaving sony once again playing catchup

The estimated BoM for Kinect 2 or 3 years ago was $50. Kinect 2 specs don't point to anything more expensive, and they removed the motor so it will most likely be less. So given that the cost of those materials has decreased over the years, I would guess it is much lower than $50.

Perhaps we're missing some vital information with regards to kinect 2 though. It's possible the cost of the device does not stop with the device itself. Perhaps ms have decided to include those extra data processors, that were originally part of the prime sense technology this time however, they would/could likely be housed within the console rather than the camera

 

[Ramblin]

Assuming the 720 leaks are true, the PS4 is more powerful than the 720, that's just a conditional sentence.

That's better.

 

[AgentP]

The estimated BoM for Kinect 2 or 3 years ago was $50. Kinect 2 specs don't point to anything more expensive, and they removed the motor so it will most likely be less. So given that the cost of those materials has decreased over the years, I would guess it is much lower than $50.

So not knowing what is inside and their costs, you have a guess? Great, let's call it $45, which is still the second most expensive part of the overall BOM!

 

[JJD]

Guys is there any credibility at all to the rumor that the Durango may feature an IBM CPU instead of an AMD one? Or we can disregard this rumor completely?

I have heard this one a lot over the last few days, but I still don't know it's origin.

 

[phosphor112]

I dont think anyones downplaying anything, you seem to be looking for a argument i will end this discussion now

??

It's going to be funny when you guys are trying to convince your friends not to get a 720

Neogaf poster: but it has 2xs more rops!

Friend: rops wtf is that, they look the same on screen and its cheaper.


LOL

Seems like exactly what you are doing. Downplaying a large disparity in hardware performance, and then creating some idiotic scenario in which someone tries to "sell" the idea of a PS4 to someone by talking about ROPS.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

I wonder how much more expensive the extra 4GB of GDDR5 is compared to Kinect 2.0, both now and then cost reduction-wise over the life of the console?

 

[Arrogant Menace]

??



Seems like exactly what you are doing. Downplaying a large disparity in hardware performance, and then creating some idiotic scenario in which someone tries to "sell" the idea of a PS4 to someone by talking about ROPS.

Ok

 

[artist]

Seems like exactly what you are doing. Downplaying a large disparity in hardware performance, and then creating some idiotic scenario in which someone tries to "sell" the idea of a PS4 to someone by talking about ROPS.

He's also trying to do a terrible impression of Kyle Bosman.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

The downplaying of PS4's power over Durango's is silly. The difference is much larger than it was this gens.

even though it seems like they have pretty much the exact same hardware except %50 less rops and less ram. People keep acting like this is some 2x increase in power when it's probably going to amount to maybe a 20% performance increase overall.

And I'm betting MS is going to have 4 gigs of ddr3.

 

[Reiko]

even though it seems like they have pretty much the exact same hardware except %50 less rops and less ram. People keep acting like this is some 2x increase in power when it's probably going to amount to maybe a 20% performance increase overall.

And I'm betting MS is going to have 4 gigs of ddr3.

Think about what you're saying. 4GB of ddr3.

3GB is rumored to be for the OS. That means 1GB for games. It's Wii U.

 

[phosphor112]

even though it seems like they have pretty much the exact same hardware except %50 less rops and less ram. People keep acting like this is some 2x increase in power when it's probably going to amount to maybe a 20% performance increase overall.

And I'm betting MS is going to have 4 gigs of ddr3.

It's not just ROPs, it's texture units and straight up raw performance. Sure it might be only "20%" in the end, but that's still much higher than the tiny differences we saw this gen.

Also, there is no way they are going down from 8 to 4.

 

[Painraze]

And I'm betting MS is going to have 4 gigs of ddr3.

Nah man they are downgrading to 1GB DDR1

 

[KidBeta]

even though it seems like they have pretty much the exact same hardware except %50 less rops and less ram. People keep acting like this is some 2x increase in power when it's probably going to amount to maybe a 20% performance increase overall.

And I'm betting MS is going to have 4 gigs of ddr3.

50% less ROPS (16 vs 32)
33% less compute (12 vs 18)

Is the raw numbers.

 

[shinra-bansho]

From what I understand... based on these leaks we're looking at the PS4 having:

• The same CPU
• 50% more compute units and correspondingly higher maximum FLOPS
• 50% more texture mapping units
• 100% more render output units
• 8GB unified memory at 176GB/s bandwidth vs 8GB DDR3 at 68GB/s with 32MB ESRAM at 102GB/s; so potentially 150% more bandwidth

...over Durango. Is that accurate?

I'm not sure how that would amount to a 20% difference in performance - purely from the magic of mathematics - although the actual outcome may not necessarily be that different if no one utilises that performance and/or diminishing returns set in.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

From what I understand... based on these leaks we're looking at the PS4 having:

• The same CPU
• 50% more compute units and correspondingly higher maximum FLOPS
• 50% more texture mapping units
• 100% more render output units
• 8GB unified memory at 176GB/s bandwidth vs 8GB DDR3 at 68GB/s with 32MB ESRAM at 102GB/s; so potentially 150% more bandwidth

...over Durango. Is that accurate?

Yes.

I'm not sure how that would amount to a 20% difference in performance - purely from the magic of mathematics - although the actual outcome may not necessarily be that different if no one utilises that performance and/or diminishing returns set in.

Which is unlikely, given it's the same architecture. I would even go so far, that quickly ported games will almost automatically perform better on the PS4. And regarding dimishing returns - I am sure devs will use the additional power to improve fidelity where it's actually noticable. After all they have to compete with Sony's first party output, and prettier games will always sell better.

 

[Sky Chief]

Nah man they are downgrading to 1GB DDR1

Better latency

 

[nib95]

From what I understand... based on these leaks we're looking at the PS4 having:

• The same CPU
• 50% more compute units and correspondingly higher maximum FLOPS
• 50% more texture mapping units
• 100% more render output units
• 8GB unified memory at 176GB/s bandwidth vs 8GB DDR3 at 68GB/s with 32MB ESRAM at 102GB/s; so potentially 150% more bandwidth

...over Durango. Is that accurate?

I'm not sure how that would amount to a 20% difference in performance - purely from the magic of mathematics - although the actual outcome may not necessarily be that different if no one utilises that performance and/or diminishing returns set in.

Erm...the differences seem a lot more than was apparent only a few months back. I'm also assuming the above is based on the PS3's Jaguar cpu being 1.6ghz and not 2ghz?

 

[ArisenDragon]

The spec difference between the two could be pretty large considering if specs are real but game wise have to see the differences.

 

[Reiko]

The Durango spec reveal will either shock or disappoint.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

The one thing I understand from threads like these is that people have no idea what they are talking about, and let console bias blind them. I'm pretty sure both MS and Sony know what they are doing in their R&D departments. What we have here is a lot of Dick wagging from armchair engineers.

 

[shinra-bansho]

The Durango spec reveal will either shock or disappoint.

Maybe it will do both?

Erm...the differences seem a lot more than was apparent only a few months back. I'm also assuming the above is based on the PS3's Jaguar cpu being 1.6ghz and not 2ghz?

That 2 GHz rumor seemed incredibly suspect so, yes, I'm disregarding it.

 

[Jadedx]

Erm...the differences seem a lot more than was apparent only a few months back. I'm also assuming the above is based on the PS3's Jaguar cpu being 1.6ghz and not 2ghz?

Yes.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

50% less ROPS (16 vs 32)
33% less compute (12 vs 18)

Is the raw numbers.

but rops and compute do very specific tasks. They alone dont account for some massive gap in power. If that were the case it wouldn't take nvidia or ATI an architecture overhaul to get a 35% increase in yield from their cards, they'd just keep making bigger cards.