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VGLeaks Rumor: Durango Memory System Overview & Example

yes ir's a surprise they are not there and a suggestion their product isn't ready to be there.

Have they gone back to the drawing board and delayed plans to next year now perhaps?

If they have anything to say we should know in time. Maybe they really don't or are just going the same route as they did in 2005.
 
6 or 7 years from now GDC will be irrelevant.

What % of the 70-80 million people who have purchased PS3s/360s even know what GDC is?

Answer: a very small %. Hell, most of my friends who have PS3s/360s don't even know what E3 is.

Why does it matter how many know about GDC or E3? For the majority of people, they'll get their information about new games from more mainstream news sites (sites like CNN generally have some articles around E3), magazines, word of mouth (the hardcore here on Gaf is likely the ones who spread a lot of this information) and TV ads.

I hate that people think GDC is some sort of huge press event. If you've actually been, you'll realize it's not. It's a lot of sitting in rooms while someone talks about their challenges and how they overcame them, or talking about a cool new technical technique for one of their games. It's not going to become irrelevant, because developers will always want a chance to meet up with each other and talk about their mistakes, and what they could have done better, so others can learn from that. It's very valuable. Plus, it gives you a chance to take a closer look at new tools that you could potentially use.

There are new products announced, but most of the time it's tools and engines, not games or hardware (it happens, but it's uncommon).

The benefit that Sony has by having a presence at GDC is that it will give them a chance to do a deep dive into the system for non-NDA'ed, aka non-PS4 developers to get them on board. Don't get your hopes up for a whole bunch of new information. They're going to walk through the architecture which they already shown off, do a similar tour through their home screen and how it's social, then probably take a look at a bunch of the dev tools, probably show a basic Hello World app, etc etc... They might show off something new, but I wouldn't expect anything big, because again, it's not a consumer focused event, but a developer focused one (you also won't be getting pictures or videos since they're forbidden during the talks).
 

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
Let me say (again):

I did not mean GDC will become irrelevant. Why would I think that?

My post was a reply to the posters in this thread that believe Microsoft's absence from GDC is a "lost opportunity" and will give Sony some sort of boost in the console war.

When we look back 6 - 7 years from now, what happened at this year's GDC will have no influence on the console war.
 

Thorgal

Member
Why does it matter how many know about GDC or E3? For the majority of people, they'll get their information about new games from more mainstream news sites (sites like CNN generally have some articles around E3), magazines, word of mouth (the hardcore here on Gaf is likely the ones who spread a lot of this information) and TV ads.

I hate that people think GDC is some sort of huge press event. If you've actually been, you'll realize it's not. It's a lot of sitting in rooms while someone talks about their challenges and how they overcame them, or talking about a cool new technical technique for one of their games. It's not going to become irrelevant, because developers will always want a chance to meet up with each other and talk about their mistakes, and what they could have done better, so others can learn from that. It's very valuable. Plus, it gives you a chance to take a closer look at new tools that you could potentially use.

There are new products announced, but most of the time it's tools and engines, not games or hardware (it happens, but it's uncommon).

The benefit that Sony has by having a presence at GDC is that it will give them a chance to do a deep dive into the system for non-NDA'ed, aka non-PS4 developers to get them on board. Don't get your hopes up for a whole bunch of new information. They're going to walk through the architecture which they already shown off, do a similar tour through their home screen and how it's social, then probably take a look at a bunch of the dev tools, probably show a basic Hello World app, etc etc... They might show off something new, but I wouldn't expect anything big, because again, it's not a consumer focused event, but a developer focused one (you also won't be getting pictures or videos since they're forbidden during the talks).

And that is a great thing to have for Sony.

while true that the mainstream gamer is not aware of this event or doesn't care it is indirectly beneficial for them.
the more developers on board with ps4 the merier wich is also a good thing for us and sony itself as it means more games for the system and more games means more of those people potentialy buying their console .

and as as said MS not attending means no potential reeling in or convincing developers who haven't made up their mind yet to make games for xbox while sony has all those devs ears .
 
MS is going in like Judge dredd in a hotel where everything is against them and their going to work their way slowly to the top (try i should say)
 

Afrikan

Member
Pachter things MS will deliberately trash PS4 when they announce the Xbox.

Not sure about that. Maybe via PR, but not during their reveal.

http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/...osoft---will-very-deliberately-trash-the-ps4-

I think that is what Sony would want....then that would open the flood gates.

Sony's new Marketing team were poking MS here and there......probably to go all out if MS responded.

If the rumors are true about MS's approach next gen....lower spec, used games, still Live fees for online play.....then it seems Sony would have more ammo.

which is why I don't think Pachter has this one right....I think MS is just going to talk about their services and games. They did great this gen....they don't need to be getting into a Marketing fanboy war.
 
I think that is what Sony would want....then that would open the flood gates.

Sony's new Marketing team were poking MS here and there......probably to go all out if MS responded.

If the rumors are true about MS's approach next gen....lower spec, used games, still Live fees for online play.....then it seems Sony would have more ammo.

which is why I don't think Pachter has this one right....I think MS is just going to talk about their services and games. They did great this gen....they don't need to be getting into a Marketing fanboy war.

But as you know and I know and everyone else knows - if those rumors are true MS is probably expecting them to do that so both Sony & MS are probably setting up 50 gazillion contingency plans to counter points..like batman would fighting against justice league

all im saying is I am really interested what kind of smack these two will throw at one another.
 

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
MS is going in like Judge dredd in a hotel where everything is against them and their going to work their way slowly to the top (try i should say)

In two of the largest markets they can only go down since they are starting at the top. they are not underdogs.
 

maltrain

Junior Member
Microsoft need to show better specs and a release date, at least, after all this silence.

But they can... I think, in fact, the NextBox won't see the light until Q1 2014...
 

onQ123

Member
Worth a new thread?

http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-xdk/

Durango XDK

We spoke a lot about Durango hardware specs but, how about the software? In this article we will try to show you the most important parts of Durango XDK.

Durango XDK has 3 main executables amongst other things:

- Durangodocsetup: installs all the documentation in Visual Studio 2012 (VS2012 is a requirement)



- DurangoRecoveryExternal: installs the “OS” in the devkit via USB stick.

- Durangosetup: installs all the tools and plugins for VS2012



When you install both executables, you are able to open Durango Projects in Visual Studio in C ++ menu.



You have some additional tools and documentation in the windows menu, some of them related with Kinect device.



And that’s it, finally you can browse all the xdk documentation in VS2012 help.



As you can see the integration with VS2012 is pretty straightforward to help developers to learn and use easily the new machine features.

Durango XDK has basically the same structure that you can see in 360 XDK.
 

Reiko

Banned
Sooo compared to PS4 how easy is this to develop games on

bad? good? better ?

I am a total noob when it comes to this


As you can see the integration with VS2012 is pretty straightforward to help developers to learn and use easily the new machine features.

Durango XDK has basically the same structure that you can see in 360 XDK.

.....
 
ok so it will be similar to how developing on 360 was .i got that.

however i am comparing it to ps4 who devs are praising about how super easy it is .
what edge says

Though the architectures of the next-gen Xbox and PlayStation both resemble that of PCs, several development sources have told us that Sony’s solution is preferable when it comes to leveraging power. Studios working with the next-gen Xbox are currently being forced to work with only approved development libraries, while Sony is encouraging coders to get closer to the metal of its box. Furthermore, the operating system overhead of Microsoft’s next console is more oppressive than Sony’s equivalent, giving the PlayStation-badged unit another advantage.
 
what edge says

This.

The simple fact is the best information we have right now... albeit super-thin.... is that PS4 is both more powerful and easier to develop for.

Also, recent leaks, like the SDK screen grab, point to a lot of the other things we've heard from the same source (Edge) being true.
 

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Hardware architecture and software SDK are two separate things. You can have a great SDK and complicated architecture. Saying the SDK is just like the 360's does not mean getting performance from the architecture is the same.

From what I see so far Durango will be a bit more complicated than the 360 as far as hardware architecture goes. The eSRAM might be more flexible, but with freedom comes decisions. Deciding what data goes into the 32MB and when will be an art. The PS4 looks like cake compared to the PS3 or even a modern PC, but the state of the SDK is unknown (though the PS3 has gotten much better over the years and the Vita is good now). Time will tell when devs starting talking about their experiences.
 
You can bet your life on it that Sony will flood the internet with new information on the day that MS reveal there console. Because of that, the 720 won't have quite the impact that the PS4 had, especially if they avoid revealing specs (given that the leaks are accurate). I still think that Sony only showed just enough to get noticed and they've got even bigger guns ready for such an occasion with the biggest guns being held back for E3

Their aim won't be to beat MS in their home town but rather to stymie any advantages they had with the 360. The other regions will just take care of themselves.

You are severely mistaken. Nothing Sony does on that day can prevent the next Xbox from getting the largest amount of press attention, effectively smothering everything else around it. And this focus on specs is heavily misguided for one simple reason. Microsoft only need show one thing to effectively destroy and neutralize all the hype around specs. What is that? Show people just how capable the new Xbox is. All Microsoft needs to do is to show some incredible looking games running on the new Xbox that will be impossible for people to claim are somehow proof of a weak console. Real and incredible looking games being put on display without any smoke and mirrors would essentially destroy any myth that it's a significantly weaker system. And after that what precisely would people have? Numbers on a spec sheet? People could just as easily in response to those specs post some incredible looking gameplay gif of a new xbox title in action. How do you win with a spec sheet when people can respond with an unbelievable looking HD gameplay video on youtube? Simple, there is no response. People will stop focusing on things that don't matter and instead begin focusing on other things that matter, but at least we'll have more than just pieces of data to speculate on.

Simply revealing more about the PS4 won't be enough to combat any of this, short of announcing they have secured a GTA next gen exclusive on the PS4, or that EA has somehow decided to work only with the PS4. They would need something as big as those things to properly take attention away from the next gen Xbox. And keep one very important thing in mind: Microsoft is likely to come prepared with some mega announcements of their own, in addition to showing everybody what pretty much everybody that pays attention on this site and any other site that follows gaming this closely is anxiously waiting to see: the next Xbox.

Hardware architecture and software SDK are two separate things. You can have a great SDK and complicated architecture. Saying the SDK is just like the 360's does not mean getting performance from the architecture is the same.

From what I see so far Durango will be a bit more complicated than the 360 as far as hardware architecture goes. The eSRAM might be more flexible, but with freedom comes decisions. Deciding what data goes into the 32MB and when will be an art. The PS4 looks like cake compared to the PS3 or even a modern PC, but the state of the SDK is unknown (though the PS3 has gotten much better over the years and the Vita is good now). Time will tell when devs starting talking about their experiences.

x86 makes Durango much easier to program for. Proper Out of Order execution makes Durango much easier to program for. The PS4 having the same CPU helps Durango development. The PS4 having the exact same GCN architecture helps Durango development. Both systems have 8GB of unified memory helps development (No, they don't both need to be GDDR5 for this to be a benefit to development). The ESRAM not being limiting in the same ways that EDRAM was on the Xbox 360 makes Durango development easier. ESRAM being familiar thanks to devs already familiar with 360's EDRAM helps development. The idea that Durango will be more difficult to program for than the Xbox 360 is simply not true. Microsoft also knows what they are doing. You think for a second they won't properly prepare devs for developing on their system the right way, same as they've done on the Xbox and the Xbox 360 before it? Durango has more interesting architectural wrinkles than the PS4 does, and that makes Durango more of a challenge to program for, but not to such an extent that it becomes an extra advantage for the PS4 on top of the power advantage we know it has. People are much better off banking on the power edge the PS4 holds, because if people are thinking that development is going to be the type of headache that it was on the PS3 or anywhere close to it, then they are only setting themselves up for disappointment. How will people react when they actually see games running on this thing? A question I honestly can't wait to get the answer to. It will be interesting to see.
 

Wynnebeck

Banned
You are severely mistaken. Nothing Sony does on that day can prevent the next Xbox from getting the largest amount of press attention, effectively smothering everything else around it. And this focus on specs is heavily misguided for one simple reason. Microsoft only need show one thing to effectively destroy and neutralize all the hype around specs. What is that? Show people just how capable the new Xbox is. All Microsoft needs to do is to show some incredible looking games running on the new Xbox that will be impossible for people to claim are somehow proof of a weak console. Real and incredible looking games being put on display without any smoke and mirrors would essentially destroy any myth that it's a significantly weaker system. And after that what precisely would people have? Numbers on a spec sheet? People could just as easily in response to those specs post some incredible looking gameplay gif of a new xbox title in action. How do you win with a spec sheet when people can respond with an unbelievable looking HD gameplay video on youtube? Simple, there is no response. People will stop focusing on things that don't matter and instead begin focusing on other things that matter, but at least we'll have more than just pieces of data to speculate on.

Simply revealing more about the PS4 won't be enough to combat any of this, short of announcing they have secured a GTA next gen exclusive on the PS4, or that EA has somehow decided to work only with the PS4. They would need something as big as those things to properly take attention away from the next gen Xbox. And keep one very important thing in mind: Microsoft is likely to come prepared with some mega announcements of their own, in addition to showing everybody what pretty much everybody that pays attention on this site and any other site that follows gaming this closely is anxiously waiting to see: the next Xbox.

That's it? Show some games? Anything Microsoft will show will be automatically scrutinized and compared to the games we saw at the PS4 unveil. The unveil of the next Xbox will be big news but let's stop acting like the whole world is going to stop for the announcement because honestly the only country where the media will jump all over it is America.
 

GribbleGrunger

Dreams in Digital
You are severely mistaken. Nothing Sony does on that day can prevent the next Xbox from getting the largest amount of press attention, effectively smothering everything else around it. And this focus on specs is heavily misguided for one simple reason. Microsoft only need show one thing to effectively destroy and neutralize all the hype around specs. What is that? Show people just how capable the new Xbox is. All Microsoft needs to do is to show some incredible looking games running on the new Xbox that will be impossible for people to claim are somehow proof of a weak console. Real and incredible looking games being put on display without any smoke and mirrors would essentially destroy any myth that it's a significantly weaker system. And after that what precisely would people have? Numbers on a spec sheet? People could just as easily in response to those specs post some incredible looking gameplay gif of a new xbox title in action. How do you win with a spec sheet when people can respond with an unbelievable looking HD gameplay video on youtube? Simple, there is no response. People will stop focusing on things that don't matter and instead begin focusing on other things that matter, but at least we'll have more than just pieces of data to speculate on.

Simply revealing more about the PS4 won't be enough to combat any of this, short of announcing they have secured a GTA next gen exclusive on the PS4, or that EA has somehow decided to work only with the PS4. They would need something as big as those things to properly take attention away from the next gen Xbox. And keep one very important thing in mind: Microsoft is likely to come prepared with some mega announcements of their own, in addition to showing everybody what pretty much everybody that pays attention on this site and any other site that follows gaming this closely is anxiously waiting to see: the next Xbox.

That's not really the point I was trying to make though. I'm not looking at it in terms of 'beating' the 720, I'm talking in terms of 'diluting' the announcement. We've ALREADY had the PS4 announcement and that came WITHOUT an alternative to dilute that announcement. The positive mindshare is completely Sony's at this moment. I'm not saying it will stay that way but there will be many people who preordered that will stick with that preorder. Some may not ... I know that.

You can't assume that MS can steal the thunder by showing incredible games and then assume Sony haven't got many more titles to show themselves. Sony will have had months to establish mindshare with the public and months to cement relations with developers that would ordinarily be cut out of the loop. When the 720 is released Sony will have already scored an away goal and MS will have to score a HELL of a lot of goals to steal that mindshare back.

What we've seen from Sony is simply the trimmings. When MS reveal their console, Sony will show us the bigger picture.
 

RayMaker

Banned
That's not really the point I was trying to make though. I'm not looking at it in terms of 'beating' the 720, I'm talking in terms of 'diluting' the announcement. We've ALREADY had the PS4 announcement and that came WITHOUT an alternative to dilute that announcement. The positive mindshare is completely Sony's at this moment. I'm not saying it will stay that way but there will be many people who preordered that will stick with that preorder. Some may not ... I know that.

You can't assume that MS can steal the thunder by showing incredible games and then assume Sony haven't got many more titles to show themselves. Sony will have had months to establish mindshare with the public and months to cement relations with developers that would ordinarily be cut out of the loop. When the 720 is released Sony will have already scored an away goal and MS will have to score a HELL of a lot of goals to steal that mindshare back.

What we've seen from Sony is simply the trimmings. When MS reveal their console, Sony will show us the bigger picture.

unless, sony's unveiling seems diluted compared to Microsofts and all the mindshare that the PS4 had goes over to Microsoft simply because it has a better showing, and just because MS has not announced anything does not mean they are not talking to devs and getting deals and flourishing there relationships with them.

unveiling first means nothing in the grand scheme of things, history has shown this time and time again anyone debating otherwise really has no logical reason to.
 

GribbleGrunger

Dreams in Digital
unless, sony's unveiling seems diluted compared to Microsofts and all the mindshare that the PS4 had goes over to Microsoft simply because it has a better showing, and just because MS has not announced anything does not mean they are not talking to devs and getting deals and flourishing there relationships with them.

unveiling first means nothing in the grand scheme of things, history has shown this time and time again anyone debating otherwise really has no logical reason to.

So you think that anyone who has multiple consoles and are now stoked for Killzone Shadowfall or Infamous Second Son, will easily be persuaded to change their minds and buy a 720 instead? I'd say they'd stick with the console they may have preordered and buy a 720 later.

And speaking of mindshare, which current gen console has the best multiplats? The answer is always the same even when I ask people who never come to sites like this. You'd have thought that it would only take one or two multiplats to be better on the PS3 to erase that mindshare ... no?
 

Alx

Member
what edge says

JThough the architectures of the next-
gen Xbox and PlayStation both
resemble that of PCs, several
development sources have told us that
Sony’s solution is preferable when it
comes to leveraging power. Studios
working with the next-gen Xbox are
currently being forced to work with
only approved development libraries,
while Sony is encouraging coders to get
closer to the metal of its box.
Furthermore, the operating system
overhead of Microsoft’s next console is
more oppressive than Sony’s
equivalent, giving the PlayStation-
badged unit another advantage.

that's doesn't really cover ease of development, but developer freedom and possibility of performance optimization. If anything, being limited to a strict API makes development easier. Sony has been encouraging (sometimes forcing) developers to code to the metal since PS2, but it's not an easy feat.
 
x86...proper Out of Order execution...the same CPU...the exact same GCN architecture...8GB of unified memory.... Durango [is] more of a challenge to program for, but not to such an extent that it becomes an extra advantage for the PS4....
So, you list a bunch of ways the two consoles are identical, and then the one difference you mention makes Durango more challenging to program. Yet somehow this will not be to the PS4's advantage? That makes no sense! You have literally described the exact opposite situation from what you concluded.

It's not even that I disagree with the overall thrust of your post. But your eagerness to (mis)classify every fact as an unmitigated positive for Durango throws doubt on your argument, even where it's on better ground.
 
That's it? Show some games? Anything Microsoft will show will be automatically scrutinized and compared to the games we saw at the PS4 unveil. The unveil of the next Xbox will be big news but let's stop acting like the whole world is going to stop for the announcement because honestly the only country where the media will jump all over it is America.

Ahh, yes, people can compare all they want to the games shown at the PS4 reveal, and what will people say if the next Xbox's games look just as impressive? Will everybody cry foul and say that this just isn't possible, that something must have been manipulated because the specs you're looking at led us to believe the console shouldn't be capable of what we're all seeing? Are you banking on Killzone somehow looking leaps and bounds better than anything the new Xbox will show? I sure as hope not, because, to start, that isn't even remotely close to what the PS4 is capable of, and I didn't find it nearly as impressive as some people on here did. It looked like a generic PS3 shooter on steroids and the fact that I've never been a fan of Killzone doesn't help much with the impression either. Besides thinking it looked generic, I can at least attest to the fact that there were quite a few things about it that looked pretty damn impressive, but I know the PS4 is capable of better. However, it doesn't just stop there. I'm also pretty certain that the new xbox can do better than that Killzone vid also.

I personally thought Watch Dogs looked more impressive and more like a proper next gen title. Drive Club looked pretty damn good, too, if there was any real footage in there anywhere. And might I add that some of the games we saw at the PS4 event are also next xbox games? Watch Dogs is also a next xbox title, as is Bungie's Destiny. In fact, the most impressive looking game of the entire event for me was Watch Dogs, a multi-platform title. Deep Down looked cool, but if we're being serious, none of that was real gameplay. This isn't my first rodeo as they say. I have zero doubt that Capcom's new engine will look amazing, as they were clearly ahead of the next gen curve for Japanese developers from very early on with the 360 and PS3, and I expect that to continue with the new consoles. However, what they showed wasn't gameplay, it was a great looking trailer/tech demo. Lair made for a pretty killer trailer, too. We'll revisit that game when we actually see gameplay for it, which, again, I expect to be damn impressive looking. I sure as hell haven't forgotten what Capcom did on this current gen of consoles, or how amazing Resident Evil 5 looked when they first revealed it "for real" with actual gameplay footage. I don't think we have that for Deep Down yet, and I'll be on the lookout for the same crap with the Xbox reveal.

Simply put, it becomes much harder to rain on someone's parade when you've already revealed your console, even if (and we know they do) Sony has some surprises in store. When the next Xbox is revealed, it will soak up all the oxygen in the room. Everything about it, even stuff we may already know, will be fresh news because it will come with more context and supported with the greater weight of finally being official. We'll have gameplay videos, we'll see the new OS in action, we'll see what their features are. Microsoft will probably make some big announcements that we don't know about and they'll likely also announce some new IP while showing us what some of their most known first party studios are working on. Epic is likely to be there showing something on stage that is no doubt UE4 based, Crytek (although I don't like any of their games, personally) is likely to be showing whatever it is they may be working on, as they are still developing a title for Microsoft, I think. Either way, this entire forum is ready to explode when, whether for good reasons or bad reasons the moment the new xbox is shown. I'm not even among the people looking forward to a next gen Gears. But I think it's safe to say that If Epic were to show a Gears game on UE4, that it might look a bit impressive. Nothing Sony can do will change that the new xbox will be the most talked about thing when it's announced.

Turn the tables and have it be Microsoft who have already announced their console and Sony about to reveal theirs, and I would be telling you the exact same thing. You can't compete against a full blown console reveal unless you have your own console to reveal shortly after. Dropping anything less than a completely unexpected and totally bombshell style announcement, Sony will not win the attention game.

So, you list a bunch of ways the two consoles are identical, and then the one difference you mention makes Durango more challenging to program. Yet somehow this will not be to the PS4's advantage? That makes no sense! You have literally described the exact opposite situation from what you concluded.

It's not even that I disagree with the overall thrust of your post. But your eagerness to (mis)classify every fact as an unmitigated positive for Durango throws doubt on your argument, even where it's on better ground.

You seriously don't get it, do you? I pointed out all valid arguments that are in fact true. How in god's name could Durango be significantly more difficult to program for when it's going to already be easier to program for than the Xbox 360 based on all that I've listed? If it's going to be easier than the 360, then Microsoft has nothing to worry about. ESRAM is not some radical departure for developers that are already familiar with the 360's EDRAM. In fact, developers wanted more flexibility from that approach, so that's more or less something developers should be pleased by. The fact that there are such strong similarities between the PS4 and Durango will help cut down on development headaches for developers, and thus make what could have otherwise been significantly more time trying to wrangle with unique intricacies of two very different platforms, such as the case with the ps3 and 360, less of a problem on Durango and ps4. There will be plenty of time for developers to get proper optimization done on Durango because there are more similarities between these machines will ease development further, on top of the fact that Durango's architectural foundation is already a major boon for game development. The PS4 isn't the only system that made the move to a much more easy to develop for console... To even attempt to argue this point is a waste of time. Feel free to disagree, but I've already said what I need to.

What I see is people that seem so unsure about the PS4's power edge, which I believe it has, that they are almost looking to invent further reasons for why the PS4 will have an extra advantage. Development between Durango and PS4 will be NOTHING like 360 and PS3 in terms of dealing with two very different platforms. These platforms are crazy identical.
 
You seriously don't get it, do you? I pointed out all valid arguments that are in fact true. ...To even attempt to argue this point is a waste of time.
Ah, I see. Everything you say is perfect and accurate, and any disagreement is pointless. Perhaps it'd be best to just ban everyone but you, and turn GAF into your personal blog.

If you examine my post, you might see that you're ascribing ideas to me that I didn't state:
How in god's name could Durango be significantly more difficult to program for when it's going to already be easier to program for than the Xbox 360 based on all that I've listed?
I never said Durango will be more difficult than 360. I simply pointed out that you said Durango would be more difficult than PS4, but then claimed this would not be an advantage for the PS4. Obviously, that conclusion doesn't follow.

I never talked about how significant the difference would be; I never said ports between Durango and PS4 would be impossible; I never insisted that Durango developers will hate the architecture and fail to use it fully. All I said was that this portion of your argument was flawed (while explicitly saying that I agreed with you overall).

Discussion will be better served if you quit windmilling counterpunches in the mistaken assumption that everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot or a shill.
 

Wynnebeck

Banned
long ass rant

Not to take away from the time you put into that scintillating post but you are rivaling a politician in flowery language. The Xbox reveal will be the main headline but you seriously need to stop acting as if no other information released that day from Sony, Nintendo, a major game publisher, etc. couldn't dull that hype with their own. Also, if MS decides to push the actual reveal into May, then they really screwed up because the period of May-June-July is E3 season where we get multiple news reveals of different games and announcements on a steady basis. Xbox would get the spotlight for maybe a week or so before everyone geared up for E3. I'm not saying that if Sony/Nintendo revealed information when Durango is revealed that they would win in mindshare but it can dilute it.

As for programming, you must have not read how developers are finding the PS4 easy to work with while they are running into snags with Durango and MS forcing them to use their approved libraries. I'll have to find the actual thread. Also, saying things like:

You seriously don't get it, do you? I pointed out all valid arguments that are in fact true.

aren't winning you any points. It makes you look insufferable.
 

Krilekk

Banned
As for programming, you must have not read how developers are finding the PS4 easy to work with while they are running into snags with Durango and MS forcing them to use their approved libraries.

That's not at all what they are saying. They only compared PS4 development to PS3 development, saying PS4 is much easier. Which isn't surprising. Nobody said they found Durango development tougher than PS4 because nobody who has access to it is allowed to talk about it. Those approved libraries are what made devs very happy with 360 development because they had great libraries and tools. Everything else is just shady people seeing things they want to see. Durango development is easier than PS4 development. There, I said it. Cause they already built 360 according to devs wishes and won't walk away from that.
 

Alx

Member
As for programming, you must have not read how developers are finding the PS4 easy to work with while they are running into snags with Durango and MS forcing them to use their approved libraries.

Like I said earlier, those are two completely different questions. MS always forced developers to use their approved libraries, and Xbox 1 and 360 were considered easy to develop for. Sony always let developers code to the metal, and PS2 and 3 were regarded as very difficult to develop for.
 

DEADEVIL

Member
Dont worry SenjutsuSage is the same on beyond3d after a while you give up reading the drivel.

ADidn't read one word that came off as drivel to me. The guy went out of his way to back his points up logically. I guess that's what certain people have an issue with.
 

QaaQer

Member
ADidn't read one word that came off as drivel to me. The guy went out of his way to back his points up logically. I guess that's what certain people have an issue with.

Nope, it's the condescending I-Know-Everything attitude and the inability to understand what others are trying to say. Moreover, it comes off as if all he is here for is to prove how much smarter he is than everyone else as opposed to discussion.

I could forgive all of that if he was funny or interesting; but the posts are wall-o-texts that could be summarized in 10% of the space and they are really dull.
 

abadguy

Banned
SenjutsuSage is being a bit too "positive" when it comes to Durango for some people's tastes. Frankly none of his posts have been unreasonable on the subject, but some are too far into their "console war" modes to see any reason i guess.
 
Not to take away from the time you put into that scintillating post but you are rivaling a politician in flowery language. The Xbox reveal will be the main headline but you seriously need to stop acting as if no other information released that day from Sony, Nintendo, a major game publisher, etc. couldn't dull that hype with their own. Also, if MS decides to push the actual reveal into May, then they really screwed up because the period of May-June-July is E3 season where we get multiple news reveals of different games and announcements on a steady basis. Xbox would get the spotlight for maybe a week or so before everyone geared up for E3. I'm not saying that if Sony/Nintendo revealed information when Durango is revealed that they would win in mindshare but it can dilute it.

As for programming, you must have not read how developers are finding the PS4 easy to work with while they are running into snags with Durango and MS forcing them to use their approved libraries. I'll have to find the actual thread. Also, saying things like:



aren't winning you any points. It makes you look insufferable.

I'm trying to make simple points that I think are reasonable. I'm not trying to win points with anyone or anything. Durango is built on architectural foundations that, by default, should make it easier to develop for than the Xbox 360.

The way some people are acting, you would think that an x86 CPU with Out of Order processing is only beneficial to the PS4. The way some people are acting, you would think that these platforms being as identical as they are (more identical than was ever the case between the ps3 and 360) does not make developer's lives easier. The way some people are acting, you would think that a pool of unified memory alongside a much smaller, faster memory where most of the console's memory bandwidth is situated (exactly as was the case on the 360, only this time that small memory is a lot more flexible) is something that is somehow foreign to developers thoroughly familiar with Xbox 360 development, and who found the 360 rather easy to code for.

Trust me, I get it. I'm not negative enough about the Durango (or any console for that matter) for people's tastes. It isn't like I'm negative on the PS4, I'm just not negative enough on Durango. Well, there's nothing I can do about that. I've said countless times on this forum that the PS4 will have the power edge, and that much is clear. However, people who are seemingly not confident enough in that advantage are assuming that the PS4 will have a development advantage on par with the one the 360 had on the PS3. This scenario is simply unrealistic by any stretch of the imagination.

Durango development requiring a little more care than PS4 development doesn't automatically equate to an automatic advantage for the PS4, because you would need to assume that the extra effort required on Durango's part is somehow significant enough and complex enough to hurt 360 development the way the PS3's architectural decisions ended up hurting PS3 development. Some want to believe this is true, but based on the simple reasons I've provided, it should not be. I mean, I can't find what I've said that is so unreasonable to people, besides the fact that I'm not jumping on the Durango far harder to develop for, far weaker, not worth a gamer's time bandwagon. So I'll repeat it one last time:

It's easier to develop for the PS4 than it is for Durango, but Durango won't be so much more difficult to develop for by comparison that it will somehow end up presenting developers with enough headaches that they somehow end up being incapable of properly optimizing their game for Durango, hence yet another performance boost for PS4 over Durango. That view I think is unrealistic. Did not all developers say the 360 was easy to develop for? Yes, most, if not all, did. Well, Durango is even easier to develop for, and by easier, I don't mean slightly easier. EDRAM on 360 is basically what ESRAM on Durango is, except ESRAM has less restrictions. The EDRAM limitations was one of the biggest complaints about the 360, Microsoft has removed that complaint. Another complaint that was shared between both systems was that the processors were in order execution, Microsoft has removed that complaint. Developers like that Microsoft went with 512MB of unified memory last gen, they've done so again, but this time with 8GB of unified DDR3. There being 32MB of ESRAM, just as there was 10MB of EDRAM on the 360, does not change this fact. Move Engines and Display Planes look like things that aide development as opposed to overcomplicating it. Some devs will use the move engines better than others, but the Durango's specs are more than capable of handling impressive games even without extensive use of the move engines. Just look at the specs, it's obvious that it can. Effective use of the move engines just look like they would be a very nice way to cut down on the amount of work that the GPU has to do on its own, and that should help with utilization of resources. And Microsoft is usually pretty good about providing developers with what they need to properly exploit whatever hardware they provide them with. I have no reason to doubt that they are somehow now incapable of this. I've seen all the stuff about API getting in the way etc, etc. These are things that have been said about Microsoft consoles before, somehow I don't think it will be an issue on Durango.
 

Durante

Member
Oh please stop the "poor prosecuted Durango fan" act. It's embarrassing, frankly. And I very much doubt it helps your cause, as it is.

And neither do your walls of repetitive text, when your point could be summed up with "the increased architectural complexity of Durango in terms of memory system vis-a-vis PS4 will not significantly impact relative developer effort, as developers are familiar with the concept from 360 and MS is good at providing tools".
 
Oh please stop the "poorI prosecuted Durango fan" act. It's embarrassing, frankly. And I very much doubt it helps your cause, as it is.

And neither do your walls of repetitive text, when your point could be summed up with "the increased architectural complexity of Durango in terms of memory system vis-a-vis PS4 will not significantly impact relative developer effort, as developers are familiar with the concept from 360 and MS is good at providing tools".

Good post
 

Wynnebeck

Banned
Oh please stop the "poor prosecuted Durango fan" act. It's embarrassing, frankly. And I very much doubt it helps your cause, as it is.

And neither do your walls of repetitive text, when your point could be summed up with "the increased architectural complexity of Durango in terms of memory system vis-a-vis PS4 will not significantly impact relative developer effort, as developers are familiar with the concept from 360 and MS is good at providing tools".

Thank you!
 
Oh please stop the "poor prosecuted Durango fan" act. It's embarrassing, frankly. And I very much doubt it helps your cause, as it is.

And neither do your walls of repetitive text, when your point could be summed up with "the increased architectural complexity of Durango in terms of memory system vis-a-vis PS4 will not significantly impact relative developer effort, as developers are familiar with the concept from 360 and MS is good at providing tools".

Been there, done that. I've done the simplified explanation before and that wasn't good enough for some people. They took offense to it and challenged the basic core of what I was saying, so then I explained it in more detail. It's not my problem.

And don't give me this "persecuted Durango fan" nonsense either. More like some of the people on here need to quit trying to invent ways for the PS4, which already has a document edge in the power department, to gain yet another edge. That's what's embarrassing. The way you started out your response is the default go to attempt to try and get someone to stop saying things that people don't want to hear simply because I'm being perceived as stirring the kool aid in the opposite direction. Yea, I'll keep saying my piece.

Oh please stop the "poor prosecuted Durango fan" act. It's embarrassing, frankly. And I very much doubt it helps your cause, as it is.

And neither do your walls of repetitive text, when your point could be summed up with "the increased architectural complexity of Durango in terms of memory system vis-a-vis PS4 will not significantly impact relative developer effort, as developers are familiar with the concept from 360 and MS is good at providing tools".


You the man! I didn't want to be left out. :)
 

Tripolygon

Banned
More like some of the people on here need to quit trying to invent ways for the PS4, which already has a document edge in the power department, to gain yet another edge. That's what's embarrassing.

This is true. Some people make it seem like Microsoft doesn't know how to put together a good API and well written instruction on how to get the most out of their platform. I would not doubt nextBox being even easier to develop on than XBox360 considering they've had years to work with Xbox360, decades on x86 architecture and ATI graphics cards. Some people are putting too much emphasis on the straightforwardness of PS4 compared to nextBox.
 
SenjutsuSage, I don't think you're wrong or misguided, but you keep fumbling the logic of your arguments. You're on steady ground saying that Durango should be familiar to develop for, and that the gap shouldn't be anything like PS3 versus 360. But then you add things like this:
Durango development requiring a little more care than PS4 development doesn't automatically equate to an automatic advantage for the PS4...
In fact, Durango requiring more care than PS4 does automatically equate to an advantage. It's pretty much the definition of an advantage.

Your refusal to accept any criticism of your posts confuses the value of your true statements (such as about the advantage's relative insignificance).
 
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